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Author Topic: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files  (Read 17354 times)

Rhossydd

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2019, 01:43:13 am »

Why not just shoot RAW in the first place?
1. Your camera may not offer that option.
2. You haven't the time to post process from RAW to end use (eg sports/news photography).
3. You may run out of space on memory.

From what I've seen from Bart's example, this may be a useful tool to rescue and enhance some JPGs, if you only have a JPG original. Although there does look to be as much false information added as credible detail. Like many other Topaz products not a compelling product.

Personally, I'd have to be pretty desperate  to spend money to rescue something for so little gain.
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32BT

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2019, 04:09:19 am »

Raw to jpg is a many-to-one relation, in fact, so many that it isn't very useful to think about reverse engineering that relation. That relation loses a lot of data and is specific to each producer.

Of course, with AI and a whole bunch of raw+jpg images, one can *attempt* to train the AI to find some inverse relation, but it will just be guestimating most of the time.

For specific producers, there may be a slight improvement, think of it like this:

If the raw data represents 100% integrity (relatively speaking)
A jpg represents say 25% integrity

An attempt at reverse engineering to raw then represents maybe 30%

It probably does more harm than good. There is maybe one reason to do this, which is a desire to use tools in the raw converter that are not available when editing jpg.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2019, 12:59:33 pm »

32BT, I remember theimagingfactory from over a decade ago! I featured one of your products in my old ezine then (page 9).

And I think you summarize JPEG to RAW well when you say, "a desire to use tools in the raw converter that are not available when editing jpg".
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rasworth

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2019, 01:57:50 pm »

"a desire to use tools in the raw converter that are not available when editing jpg"

I disagree - I shoot raw because the resulting image file has everything from the scene recorded in it, subject to the limitations of my equipment and photographic skills.  IMO there is no significant downside to a raw workflow, almost everything I shoot goes thru ACR, most of it comes out of the Save spigot if it comes out at all, only a selected few into Photoshop.  I also process most acquired jpegs in ACR (or maybe LR), using the same tools.  Some of the tools have different characteristics between raw and jpeg, but they do the same basic operations.

Richard Southworth
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2019, 02:02:39 pm »

And I think you summarize JPEG to RAW well when you say, "a desire to use tools in the raw converter that are not available when editing jpg".
Tools perhaps, but DATA, absolutely. Again, read the facts about what a camera generated JPEG does rather destructively from the raw data to make the JPEG (all such cameras produce a raw, even if you don't ask for it which is a big mistake). There's a potentially huge data loss in DR, color gamut and bit depth alone doing this conversion instead of capturing the raw. NO software can put that toothpaste back in the tube.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2019, 02:14:45 pm »

Of course a real RAW is most preferable whenever possible, no argument. As an analogy, audio collectors have no patience with mp3s (the audio equivalent of JPEGs) and want not only lossless files (16/44), but hi-res lossless (24/96 or better).

But if you're stuck with an mp3 and nothing else and need to do edits, you'll have to "convert" the mp3 to a WAV/AIFF, do your edits, and keep it there. In that case no lost audio data is being put back, but no further damage is being done. Topaz's AI is attempting to restore some lost data, though of course the argument is whether this is working, and if so, how much.

In the case of Gigapixel AI I have been very impressed. I've done my own tests and have definitely seen the difference.

I agree with Andrew that the main problem with JPEG to RAW is in the product name used ("RAW") instead of "DMG", which would be quite accurate of itself.
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2019, 02:18:28 pm »

I agree with Andrew that the main problem with JPEG to RAW is in the product name used ("RAW") instead of "DMG", which would be quite accurate of itself.
It's DNG and it's again, just a container like TIFF. The issue is many people incorrectly assume DNG equals raw. Lightroom has had the ability to convert (embed) a JPEG into DNG for years. Or a TIFF. You're just placing that existing data into the DNG container. So this company is making up a lot of stuff AND trying to pass off the option to save as DNG as another excuse to imply this is raw data. It's JPEG data IN a DNG.
People could convert a JPEG into a 16-bit TIFF in ProPhoto RGB for decades now. But apparently the people who don't know how to do this don't have a clue about what raw or DNG is and just buy into this companies marketing hype. Suckers are born every minute and have $80 (or $99) to spend it seems.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2019, 02:28:39 pm »

So that leaves us with the AI aspect of the new product, which will develop over time, after which we can evaluate it further.
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2019, 02:31:02 pm »

So that leaves us with the AI aspect of the new product, which will develop over time, after which we can evaluate it further.
Yeah, AI, another unnecessary marketing term. It might get better, as any software product could (should). Or it may fail because enough people see through the rubbish and lies this company has decided to use to sell a product.
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faberryman

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2019, 02:41:12 pm »

1. Your camera may not offer that option.
2. You haven't the time to post process from RAW to end use (eg sports/news photography).
3. You may run out of space on memory.
1. If your camera doesn't shoot RAW, you are probably not concerned about quality anyway.
2. If you don't have time to process raw, you don't have time to use this product either. You can also shoot RAW+JPG.
3. Use a bigger card. They are cheap. Or, carry an extra card.
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David Sutton

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2019, 03:56:41 pm »

1. If your camera doesn't shoot RAW, you are probably not concerned about quality anyway.
2. If you don't have time to process raw, you don't have time to use this product either. You can also shoot RAW+JPG.
3. Use a bigger card. They are cheap. Or, carry an extra card.
I get clients wanting something like a 17 inch print from a jpeg file.
If the jpeg has 600 - 800 px on the long side I can usually do it.
I haven't tried the unfortunately named Topaz JPEG to Raw AI, but if it sometimes made life easier I'd buy it.
There's no point telling clients what they should have done, we have to deal with what they have.
David
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2019, 04:05:27 pm »

David, you'd probably want to look at Gigapixel for that purpose. See my other posts about it.
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David Sutton

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2019, 05:00:23 pm »

David, you'd probably want to look at Gigapixel for that purpose. See my other posts about it.
Way ahead of you on that.  :)
I've used it once and it did the job I wanted, but the AI Clear has been more useful. Once I've cloned out the jpeg artefacts, restored the colour balance and maybe dynamic range, a tool for selective detail restoration both before and after uprezzing works better for me.
David
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Rhossydd

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2019, 05:16:37 pm »

1. If your camera doesn't shoot RAW, you are probably not concerned about quality anyway.
2. If you don't have time to process raw, you don't have time to use this product either. You can also shoot RAW+JPG.
3. Use a bigger card. They are cheap. Or, carry an extra card.
You're missing many things here;
1. You might care a lot about quality, but have no option but to use a JPG only device (eg your camera is lost, stolen or develops a fault and you're stuck with just a phone or other JPG only kit)
2. Lots of event/sport photographs don't need to shoot RAW, JPG is fine for most expected use, but an exceptional event or image might need everything possible squeezed out a JPG. Shooting RAW+JPG may not be viable if you're shooting thousands of images an hour.
3. When a card fails and a replacement isn't available, or the lost or stolen scenario rears it's head again. There's many unfortunate things that do go wrong and you need to use anything to get the shot.

My point is that the unexpected does happen and then having tools like this available might just enhance an image a worthwhile amount.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2019, 07:10:02 pm »

Way ahead of you on that.  :)
I've used it once and it did the job I wanted, but the AI Clear has been more useful. Once I've cloned out the jpeg artefacts, restored the colour balance and maybe dynamic range, a tool for selective detail restoration both before and after uprezzing works better for me.
David

Very good. In one of my blog posts I used both Gigapixel and Clear together and got really good results from some old 35mm film scans.
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albytastic

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2019, 09:00:14 am »

Hello,
I'm new here so hope you'll forgive me for jumping in.
I've been using Topaz program for a few days now and testing it fairly extensively and as far as I'm concerned it is amazing!
Now I know lots of people say it's not RAW etc, but it produces both a TIFF file or a DNG so apart from the fact that it isn't just raw data the fact is it actually does what it says.
And it beats my usual NR program hands down.
At this moment my Z800 is batch processing 300 old 40D files using this program.
If I'm allowed I have a link to my flickr site where I've actually put some samples of what this program can produce:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/20926615@N05/albums/72157678279709128

Please don't treat them as if they should be prize winning photos, many of these were taken over 10 years ago with the Canon 350D, 450D, 40D etc.
They are there to show the capabilities of this new program.
I also have an album for AI Gigapixel which totally blew me away when I tried it.


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Ray Harrison

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2019, 09:44:58 am »

... so apart from the fact that it isn't just raw data the fact is it actually does what it says.

Except the JPG to raw part, yes, it does exactly what it says on the tin.  ;)

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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2019, 10:28:32 am »

Except the JPG to raw part, yes, it does exactly what it says on the tin.  ;)
Let's see it recover highlights and DR as it says on the tin. You'd need to have a raw of the same capture and ideally exposed for raw to compare. No comparison as yet provided (I wonder why?) :P
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bjanes

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2019, 11:47:09 am »

Let's see it recover highlights and DR as it says on the tin. You'd need to have a raw of the same capture and ideally exposed for raw to compare. No comparison as yet provided (I wonder why?) :P

Andrew's point here is well taken. Highlight recovery in raw requires that the blue and/or red channels contain unclipped data. This is shown in this raw histogram of a Stouffer wedge exposed so that the green channels are clipped but the red channel is 1/3 EV below clipping and the blue channel is considerably less than 1/3 EV below clipping. To achieve white balance in rendering the red channel is multiplied by 1.90 (moved 0.93 EV to the right) and the blue channel by 1.38 (moved 0.46 EV to the right). After these WB multiplications both the red and blue channels would be clipped and highlight recovery would not be possible from the JPEG.

Bill
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2019, 03:02:04 pm »

Andrew's point here is well taken. Highlight recovery in raw requires that the blue and/or red channels contain unclipped data.
And I wasn't even talking about recover like that but rather a blown out JPEG (all channels clipped) compared to a raw from that JPEG where no channels are clipped. As Jeff Schewe shows here:
http://schewephoto.com/ETTR/

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