Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10   Go Down

Author Topic: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files  (Read 3012 times)

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
    • MacroStop.com
Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« on: January 28, 2019, 07:32:43 PM »

This is interesting. A 30-day trial, afterward it is $79 for this program. I have tons of old JPG files from years ago that are in JPG and I would not use them, but some of them I wish I could. Here are two examples to consider. The first is the original JPG and the one with the word “edit” in the file name is the converted image converted to TIF  and 16-bit is the other. Judge for yourself. No, it’s not perfect, but it might save some files from many years ago. Your thoughts?

I am sure there are faults, but are there any good use of this. I have to run some tests, but I feel it would be useful.

Of course, here both are JPGs, but in Photoshop they are JPG and TIF and the TIF is twice as large.

https://topazlabs.com/jpeg-to-raw-ai?utm_source=Topaz+Updates&utm_campaign=3d07ab1be6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_01_23_04_28&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5e4dd8652a-3d07ab1be6-88405693&mc_cid=3d07ab1be6&mc_eid=f3703aa120
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 08:41:07 PM »

I'm confused about what you're reporting let alone the title: JPG to Raw but you speak of TIFF.
You took a JPEG and edited it so it looks better right? What's that got to do with JPEG to Raw? That's simply not possible, a JPEG is rendered, it's baked, you can't make it a raw.
You could convert a JPEG to a DNG, it's still not raw. DNG is just a container. As is TIFF. Open the JPEG in Photoshop, convert to TIFF, so what?
I think there's some marketing hype going on here.
The image was somehow edited and looks better. I don't understand what the big deal is, I can do that in Photoshop, Elements, Photos on Mac, Lightroom etc.
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
    • MacroStop.com
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 08:56:22 PM »

I'm confused about what you're reporting let alone the title: JPG to Raw but you speak of TIFF.
You took a JPEG and edited it so it looks better right? What's that got to do with JPEG to Raw? That's simply not possible, a JPEG is rendered, it's baked, you can't make it a raw.
You could convert a JPEG to a DNG, it's still not raw. DNG is just a container. As is TIFF. Open the JPEG in Photoshop, convert to TIFF, so what?
I think there's some marketing hype going on here.
The image was somehow edited and looks better. I don't understand what the big deal is, I can do that in Photoshop, Elements, Photos on Mac, Lightroom etc.

I'm reporting a new piece of software. Don't shoot the messenger. Check it out for yourself. I am NOT going to get into an argument over this. There it is. Try it out for free and come to your own conclusions. I did.
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 09:07:33 PM »

I'm reporting a new piece of software. Don't shoot the messenger. Check it out for yourself. I am NOT going to get into an argument over this. There it is. Try it out for free and come to your own conclusions. I did.
I'm not shooting the messenger but I am asking him to clearly his writings. Again, your topic states JPG to Raw files and you speak of JPEG to TIFF.  :P
Next I'm asking you and others to use some critical thinking about this. You can't convert a JPEG (or a TIFF) into a raw. It's not possible.
I did check it myself, there's a massive degree of marketing BS! It's nonsense. You can of course edit a JPEG to make it look better. You can convert a JPEG to a 16-bit TIFF, you gain nothing doing so. You can edit that TIFF and you'll get less data loss after saving it back as a TIFF instead of a JPEG but otherwise, you've gained nothing and Photoshop has been able to do this for a couple decades.
You can open a JPEG in Photoshop and use ACR as a Filter, edit that data in high bit and wide gamut so there's nothing new here in this new product either. You can save a JPEG into a DNG, it's still not raw data, DNG is like TIFF simply a container for image data.
But the worst part of this product is the massive BS they claim that people will believe and lay down money for. I don't need to try it, they've lost me based on their marketing lies and I have tools that can do just what they propose anyway.
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

sebbe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 03:43:46 AM »

An 8bit sRGB JPG can be converted to a 16bit ProPhoto Tiff with any software. BUT there is no way to recover the data-loss from the conversion RAW to JPG. Therefore I'm with Rodney, their call about improved "dynamic range", "color space", "color depth" is simply marketing chatter.

The only thing the software takes care of are artefacts and of course, it has to sharpen details back then. Both things you can do on your own.

Some with not much processing experience may still prefer a piece of software. But as I try to avoid any artefacts and I think others do too, I'm curious how often you really would use this software...
Logged

BartvanderWolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7411
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 05:51:24 AM »

An 8bit sRGB JPG can be converted to a 16bit ProPhoto Tiff with any software. BUT there is no way to recover the data-loss from the conversion RAW to JPG.

Hi Sebbe,

And there it gets interesting.

First of all, Demosaicing Raw file data can be done in different ways, that's why we have different Raw conversion engines in the market. Otherwise, they would all use a similar, maybe DCRaw type of demosaicing. An application like RawTherapee offers a choice of algorithms, and they do produce different results (resolution/artifact trade-offs, sensitivity to noise amplification, and false-color artifacts from the more undersampled Red and Blue Bayer filtered pixels compared to the undersampled Greens).

So different Raw conversion engines will also produce somewhat different output, even in TIFFs.

Then we get additional JPEG compression losses of, mostly, Chroma precision depending on the quality settings at conversion time. And usually, there are additionally also losses due to gamut compression, going from e.g. ProPhoto RGB to RGB conversion, and additionally by going from 16-bit/channel precision to 8-b/ch precision.

By the time we have a JPEG image, it's not very suited for postprocessing anymore, and it's not very robust. JPEGs are basically an end-product for display or print. Their robustness has been sacrificed for smalle size, and artifacts are baked in.

Interestingly, by using Artificial Intelligence, it is possible to recover from some of the losses incurred when converting to 'lossy compression' JPEGs. The loss of precision in the Chromaticity is where most of the compression is achieved, and this process can be reversed to a certain degree. It can be done to greater precision in 16-b/ch, and also when using a wider gamut colorspace.

It won't be exact, because image fragments are replaced by the results of trained AI models. The results depends on the training sets. But then, TIFFs from Raws are also not created equal.

Sure, a reverse-engineered TIFF is not an un-demosaiced Raw, but it could be very close, or even at times better (because we have replaced pixels by credible RGB data per pixel instead of only R, or G, or B interpolations).

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Keith Cooper has written an initial review based on an earlier beta version of the software:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/topaz-jpeg-to-raw-ai-review/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 06:02:11 AM by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Patricia Sheley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 06:28:37 AM »

Early in the digital revolution there were a few who managed to get this concept of Raw vs JPEG across very well for the strugglers as myself.  John Paul C. and Andy R were two in those days that that lighted and focused the subject for me.  The term that appeared then was "baked". JPC especiallywould spread out his arms to illustrate the enormous bowl necessary to contain the information available for use in a Raw file. Once you zeroed in on which ingredients in that bowl you wished to use, and "baked them" forever more into a JPEG cookie, what you now had for ingredients could be contained in a tiny, tiny bowl in comparison.  You could choose to process the ingredients of that small bowl again, but only shaping and reshaping what was in that bowl. Once you have thrown out the Raw spices and washed the big bowl there would be  no bringing them back up the drain.  If you were too early in your ability to recognize the presence of those spices, that represented permanent loss. You could make the salt and sugar become larger presences if that is what you had saved, baked, processed, but no getting back what went down the drain. ACR and others could do that sugar enhancement for you, but not manufacture the discarded spice variety that was originally in the BIG bowl of varied content.  Over the years I have explained this to musically inclined , but processing comprehension challenged,  as an enormous band or orchestra.  Depending on your hearing acuity, or that of the recording quality, the work of music may be rich and lush with variety  or it may be just a few of the loudest, or most bass or most treble you recognize and hear. Once you transcribe those you've lost the rest.  They've left the stage forever. 
We were encouraged back then to never throw out or Raw files as we could not possibly imagine how much was in that large bowl that we were not yet aware of our able to see or hear,  but that the advances in processing/ tech were coming so fast that we would be glad to have kept that bowl to visit again and again.  Not the same as the baked product, small bowl, which we had chosen to keep and now wished to make large.  That wool sweater has been shrunk, and stretch it over you body as you will, it is still the shrunk material stretched large.  Nice to hear from you Andy. Of course AI can certainly manufacture and replace those emptiness but with imagined/algorithmed, not original. (last sentence added after reading Bart's reply)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 06:41:59 AM by Patricia Sheley »
Logged
A common woman~

Patricia Sheley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 06:48:42 AM »

It won't be exact, because image fragments are replaced by the results of trained AI models. The results depends on the training sets. But then, TIFFs from Raws are also not created equal.
Quote Bart.

Excellent explanation Bart. The world advances at flank speed. I sometimes feel as if AI is already advancing faster than human intelligence is capable of running with abreast, let alone keeping up~thank you Bart
Logged
A common woman~

Rajan Parrikar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2256
    • Rajan Parrikar
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 07:00:14 AM »

One thing that isn’t clear from their email is if it is available as a plugin in Topaz Studio.

BartvanderWolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7411
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 07:08:57 AM »

One thing that isn’t clear from their email is if it is available as a plugin in Topaz Studio.

Hi Rajan,

From the TopazLabs webpage: https://topazlabs.com/jpeg-to-raw-ai/ref/17/

Quote
Simple workflow

Whenever you would edit a JPEG, put it through JPEG to RAW AI first for best editing results. Standalone application for Mac + Windows that allows batch processing.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

sebbe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 09:58:47 AM »

Bart, I'm with you. It sounds like a good solution. But to be honest, it's a good start for processing IF I have only a JPG available and IF the JPG shows artefacts too.
Do you have such pictures? I don't.
Logged

BartvanderWolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7411
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 10:43:53 AM »

Bart, I'm with you. It sounds like a good solution. But to be honest, it's a good start for processing IF I have only a JPG available and IF the JPG shows artefacts too.
Do you have such pictures? I don't.

I try to avoid taking such JPEGs myself, but I may be faced with such images from others, from a Smartphone, or frames from a video.
I'll have to experiment a bit to see which use-cases benefit most. It might also be useful for Texture files or Stock images one finds on the internet that can be used for different purposes.

My smartphone allows to take Raw files, but I might forget to switch that on. It can be helpful to turn the JPEGs into DNGs after the fact.

The images that I've tried so far come out a bit too sharp for my taste, but J2R has just been released. There might be a minimal/None setting added to the Normal / High setting for Noise and Blur Reduction, just like we saw with A.I. Gigapixel.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 10:53:50 AM »

Sure, a reverse-engineered TIFF is not an un-demosaiced Raw, but it could be very close, or even at times better (because we have replaced pixels by credible RGB data per pixel instead of only R, or G, or B interpolations).
Here's a TIFF and of course, it was originally captured as raw. Please reverse engineer the TIFF to whatever, and then we'll talk about how 'close' it is to the raw. The TIFF is at: http://digitaldog.net/files/JPEGforRAW.tif


Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Garnick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 928
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 01:09:37 PM »

I agree that sometimes Andrew tends to perhaps voice his opinion in a very straight forth manner, which some might translate as being over the top and even perhaps arrogant.  One thing I've discovered over the years in this forum is this - Andrew knows what he's talking about, and quite frankly, he seldom holds back when asked for an opinion or an assessment. 

However, I also have a lot of confidence in what Bart has to say.  I really believe that Andrew's only, or at least biggest problem with this new app from Topaz is in its marketing approach, trying to convince us that a JPEG file can be converted into a RAW file, which of course is indeed IMPOSSIBLE.  For those who have doubts about this here's a very easy way to prove it to yourself.  Take your camera and tripod and find a lovely nature scene with a full range of colour, gradients (sky etc.) and depth, and I don't mean Bit Depth.  Set you camera on the tripod.  Once the light is right take two exposures, one in RAW and one in JPEG. Open both files in ACR or your preferred image processor.  Process both with the same adjustments.  Save both as a TIFF or perhaps a DNG file.  Make further adjustments to the TIFF/DNG files and closely compare what you have in both files, RAW and JPEG.  Depending on the latest adjustments you should be able to see quite a variation, both in colour rendition and in the gradients. 

As Bart mentioned, there may indeed be some use for this particular offering from Topaz Labs for some folks, but quite honestly I cannot see that at this point.  Of course it is also in its infancy, so perhaps it will grow into something of worth.  For me at this time, not so much.

Gary           
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:09:07 PM by Garnick »
Logged
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was" (gan)

rasworth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 241
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 01:22:06 PM »

Add me to the list turned off by the Topaz marketing hype for this sw.  However, decided to be "fair", downloaded the trial on a spare W10 system, stripped off one of the befores on their website, and ran the small image (512x512) thru the program.  Simple minded interface, drop the original on a target and wait for the dng output.  Had two choices, normal and high, so I chose high and hit start.  Ran several minutes on a quad core i5 from some years back, my first thought was it's really cranking those cores.  However, task manager indicated about 2% cpu usage, which didn't make much sense.

Finally ended, spit out a dng.  I have to admit it did a reasonable job, although seem to be some areas where it didn't know quite what to do.  I wasn't able to duplicate the results with a quick pass thru PS, but I'm sure others more skilled than I could do so.  If they would just describe the program in relatively modest terms might be ok, although a bit pricey IMO.  Maybe a big disconnect between Engineering and Marketing.

Richard Southworth

Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 01:22:24 PM »

My beef with Topaz Labs is a rather blatant marketing lie as seen here:
Does anyone believe or have proof that they can convert a JPEG to raw and produce the same results? Can anyone shoot a JPEG and a properly exposed raw where the white balance for the JPEG is totally wrong (say set for Daylight but shot under Tungsten), and make that JPEG WB alone match the qualities of the raw? Has Topaz provided any test files, both JPEG and raw that test this or other such corrections instead of rendering?
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 01:36:21 PM »

Here's more nonsense from Topaz's web site that the unsuspecting will eat up:


You can prevent this from happening by running it through JPEG to RAW AI. JPEG to RAW’s machine learning models expand the sRGB colorspace to ProPhoto RGB, which is even better than a regular RAW file! This works so well because there is usually enough information in at least one color channel for our models to reconstruct missing detail with a high level of preciseness.

Machine learning expands? Oh, Photoshop's Convert to Profile (sRGB to ProPhoto) does that too and has for 20 years.
Do I have to map the gamut of an sRGB JPEG and then map the gamut after conversion to ProPhoto RGB to show them, making a container larger doesn't do anything else?
Better than a 'regular' raw? Usually enough?
They, Topaz need to start telling the truth.
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
    • MacroStop.com
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 01:39:10 PM »

I am not going to argue all this. All I did was try it out on some of the many JPGs I have from way back, like the Nikon D1X. What they did, to my eyes, looked better than the JPG and was easy to work on in post. IMO, so far so good. If it is cool  technology, cool. If it just does a better job, which it seems to, then it helps me. Simple.
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 15047
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2019, 01:59:47 PM »

I am not going to argue all this.
There isn't anything to argue about really.
Quote
All I did was try it out on some of the many JPGs I have from way back, like the Nikon D1X. What they did, to my eyes, looked better than the JPG and was easy to work on in post.

To be expected. If the results were the same or worse, I doubt the company would have released it or had the nerve to ask money for it. They do have the nerve to lie about how the product does what it does. No need to do so. But yet they lie about it.
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

rasworth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 241
Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2019, 02:01:45 PM »

Michael,

But are you going to spend $100 on it after the trial is over?  I agree it probably can rescue bad images, producing something usable.  But I'm with Andrew, can't forgive their blatant marketing crap, trying to justify the price tag with a bunch of off the wall claims.  Why not market it as a piece of AI aimed at poor image restoration, and keep it sane?  Some misguided soul at Topaz decided they couldn't get the desired price without the contrived description.

Obviously not aimed at most LULA members.

Richard Southworth


Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10   Go Up