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Author Topic: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files  (Read 2955 times)

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2019, 04:55:54 PM »

Michael,

But are you going to spend $100 on it after the trial is over?  I agree it probably can rescue bad images, producing something usable.  But I'm with Andrew, can't forgive their blatant marketing crap, trying to justify the price tag with a bunch of off the wall claims.  Why not market it as a piece of AI aimed at poor image restoration, and keep it sane?  Some misguided soul at Topaz decided they couldn't get the desired price without the contrived description.

Obviously not aimed at most LULA members.

Richard Southworth

I am not sure what I will do. I have tens of thousands of JPGs from long ago. Some of them are very nice and deserve to be more than a JPG. I could care less about the hype. Only interested in if it works and how well. It's worth $79 just for the old family images and perhaps some of the iPhone images too. I will find out.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:06:38 PM by Michael Erlewine »
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2019, 05:00:38 PM »

Got ACR?
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 05:35:40 PM »

At the moment you can actually get it for $67.99 but I can't link that here ;-)
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 05:55:28 PM »

At the moment you can actually get it for $67.99 but I can't link that here ;-)
What a deal (induced sarcasm and emjoi  :P  for emphasis). ;D
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Andrew Rodney
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 06:11:28 PM »

I actually always enjoy your posts, Andrew, always have. I have some messages from you in my inbox from 2006 about PixelGenius!

Let's see how this new title plays out over time, and what others think.
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2019, 07:30:25 AM »

Thus far I cannot tell what special sauce the Topaz product has on JPGs that cannot be achieved in ACR through Noise Reduction, Clarity, and Deconvolution sharpening. Perhaps the virtue of the new tool is that it does everything in one step. But I'll withhold judgement until I have more experience with it.

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2019, 09:44:46 AM »

Thus far I cannot tell what special sauce the Topaz product has on JPGs that cannot be achieved in ACR through Noise Reduction, Clarity, and Deconvolution sharpening. Perhaps the virtue of the new tool is that it does everything in one step. But I'll withhold judgement until I have more experience with it.

It improves JPEG editability, especially when the JPEGs were saved with lower quality settings. The output files are more robust, which only shows when trying to subject them to significant post-processing edits. At the moment, the amount of 'sharpening' (actually replacing with sharper detail), it too heavy-handed for my taste, but the DNGs can be adjusted to something more palatable in Capture One Pro by reducing the amount of "Structure".

I hope they will add a "None" or "Low" setting for the J2R AI "Noise and Blur Reduction" control. It's not just a setting, because they will have to create a new AI model for that, and that can take months of training.

Also, currently, the "Preview" (button at the bottom left) allows to change brightness and contrast, but they are not saved and just serve as aids to better judge e.g. Shadows and Highlights.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. I've attached a screen-grab of an example of Andrew's TIFF (see Reply #12), converted to JPEG with quality 10, and another one converted to JPEG with quality 99. The conversion to sRGB for Web was done with Photoshop CS-6. In both cases, it's clear that J2R added detail that was not available in the original JPEG input.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2019, 09:49:31 AM »

And here's an article where Dr, Feng (Albert) Yang, the founder of Topaz Labs, explains a bit more about the how's and why's.

https://petapixel.com/2019/01/29/can-jpegs-be-improved-to-raw-quality/?utm_source=Topaz+Updates

Cheers,
Bart
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2019, 10:53:45 AM »

Bart,

I noticed the heavy handed sharpening, too. Especially at 200-300% you can see ringing and other artifacts.

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2019, 11:14:32 AM »

Bart,

I noticed the heavy handed sharpening, too. Especially at 200-300% you can see ringing and other artifacts.

Hi Rajan,

Indeed. I guess I'll leave a comment about it on their forum. It might take a while before they could cure that, because it's not the result of simple sharpening. In Capture One it's simple to reign it in though, with a -60 Structure adjustment on a DNG, but that should not be necessary.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2019, 12:32:24 PM »

And here's an article where Dr, Feng (Albert) Yang, the founder of Topaz Labs, explains a bit more about the how's and why's.

https://petapixel.com/2019/01/29/can-jpegs-be-improved-to-raw-quality/?utm_source=Topaz+Updates

Cheers,
Bart
I have to ask those with critical judgement to ask: are you serious? It's yet another fluff/puff piece. Let's look at some of the text here with again, just an ounce of critical thinking.


The Author writes:

“Can a JPEG image be enhanced to a RAW image quality?”

"However, I recently became hopeful that my “No” could eventually become a “Yes.”

The comment comes without a lick of any proof of concept. Marketing hype.

Further he writes:
"JPEG images typically come from small cameras, like your phone, or are saved after editing to reduce image size for the internet."

NO! They all shot raw but these cameras only provide a JPEG processed from that raw.

"When a JPEG image is saved with “Quality > 70”, it “looks” almost as good as a RAW image."

The raw image doesn't look anything like the JPEG; it's yet to be rendered. This is a silly statement!

"Instead of trying to reverse the information loss, which is impossible, we train a neural network to “remember” what the RAW image should look like before it’s converted to a JPEG image."
That's nonsensical too, this is what a raw image looks like and no, it's nothing like a processed JPEG:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg



"Are the enhanced JPEGs now RAW quality? That’s for you to judge."

The company or those not shocked by the massive lies told by this company (we convert JPEGs to raw, we can edit a JPEG as if it were a raw) could provide examples as I suggested but so far, none seem to exist.
One could shoot a raw + JPEG (or ideally a raw ideally exposed, then the JPEG ideally exposed) where the white balance is wrong. It will not affect the raw whatsoever. It will massively and negatively affect the JPEG. Shot the JPEG under Tungsten of Fluorescent with camera WB set for Daylight. Now process the JPEG in this product and the raw in a product you usually use and understand how to operate. Show us the two matching in terms of WB.
One could shoot a scene with a large dynamic range, 9-11 stops perhaps, then the JPEG and show us that the JPEG has the same DR as the processed raw.**
One could shot a scene with colors that greatly exceed sRGB color gamut in raw and JPEG, run this product and plot the image color gamut vs. the raw processed into ProPhoto RGB and show its plot.
There are a few tests the company and others supporting it's ideas can try to prove the claim.

The claims made are nonsensical. They could easily have said "Processed JPEGs from Topaz provide best in class quality" or "AI provides the best quality post JPEG editing on this planet" etc, etc. They don't. They lie. And they haven’t provided anything I can yet find comparing a raw capture and their JPEGs processed to back up the two egregious claims I've mentioned above. Of course there are more such egregious claims but those two are enough. 
Why can't they tell the truth? I suppose they are considering how so many Governments lie and put all technical and science aside and figure, let's sell this to people who don' know any better. What a sad shame of events.


**The JPEG engine that processes the raw massively clips and compresses highlights. We often don't when editing the raw. This compression can clump midtones as much as 1 stop while compressing shadow details! People incorrectly state that raw has more highlight data but the fact is, the DR captured is an attribute of the capture system; it's all there in the raw but maybe not in a camera proceed JPEG.
A raw capture that's 10 or 11 stops of dynamic range can be compressed to 7 stops from this JPEG processing which is a significant amount of data and tonal loss! So when we hear people state that a raw has more DR than a JPEG, it's due to the poor rendering or handling of the data to create that JPEG. The rendering of this data and the reduction of dynamic range is from the JPEG engine that isn't handling the DR data that does exists as well as we can from the raw! Another reason to capture and render the raw data, assuming you care about how the image is rendered!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 12:42:04 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2019, 12:38:13 PM »

P.S. I've attached a screen-grab of an example of Andrew's TIFF (see Reply #12), converted to JPEG with quality 10, and another one converted to JPEG with quality 99. The conversion to sRGB for Web was done with Photoshop CS-6. In both cases, it's clear that J2R added detail that was not available in the original JPEG input.
But that wasn't the request nor is it at all useful IMHO. I supplied it based your statement below and await, yes, proof of concept:
Quote
Sure, a reverse-engineered TIFF is not an un-demosaiced Raw, but it could be very close, or even at times better (because we have replaced pixels by credible RGB data per pixel instead of only R, or G, or B interpolations).
Plus there is no 'original JPEG'. There's a rendered TIFF from an original raw. NOR did the TIFF require editing. It was rendered from raw as the photographer desired.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2019, 12:44:35 PM »

Bart,

I noticed the heavy handed sharpening, too. Especially at 200-300% you can see ringing and other artifacts.
Yup but for *some* if it "looks" sharper, it's better despite the obvious for some, heavy handling that wasn't necessary in the first place.  ;)
Let's see what this product does with a JPEG that actually needs editing!
Anyone here who shoots raw convinced from this product they should stop doing so and set their cameras for JPEG? I didn't think so (I hope not).
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Andrew Rodney
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2019, 01:06:18 PM »

Anyone here who shoots raw convinced from this product they should stop doing so and set their cameras for JPEG? I didn't think so (I hope not).

I don't think that is the motivation at all.

Although it can shoot in RAW with third party apps, my default iPhone camera setting is JPG. The other day while shooting with my Panasonic LX100II, I must have inadvertently hit some button and I was dismayed to find later that instead of RAW I had JPGs on my hand. These situations could conceivably benefit from such a tool.

digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2019, 01:11:37 PM »

I don't think that is the motivation at all.
I believe it is the motivation of their marketing, not what smarter consumers are motivated to do.
I too shoot with an iPhone (but raw is possible) and I do seek solutions that could provide better editing, when necessary to improve those shots. I'm not saying this product doesn't or can't improve a JPEG. I'm saying the company is full of crap in how they are 'selling' the solution and it's not at all necessary to lie as they have. Frankly they should have just ignored anything to do with raw. Just sell a product that can improve JPEGs (if nothing else).
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Andrew Rodney
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rasworth

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2019, 02:11:26 PM »

After the Topaz founder's article are several comments, including some denying the raw connection.  In reply another commenter wrote:

"the actual tech aside, what you describe here is really just semantic, and is a bit nitpicking. Because "RAW" are used so often to be associated with upmost quality, so it could be used this way, and many people will understand what the author meant.
What you are doing is like telling a person that, "Stop asking me to Google the meaning of RAW quality, because Google is a company, not an action." :-)"

So I guess those of us who object to the use of raw in describing the program's function are nitpicking.  So much for logical thinking.

Richard Southworth
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 02:20:09 PM by rasworth »
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Ray Harrison

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2019, 02:39:01 PM »

I believe it is the motivation of their marketing, not what smarter consumers are motivated to do.
I too shoot with an iPhone (but raw is possible) and I do seek solutions that could provide better editing, when necessary to improve those shots. I'm not saying this product doesn't or can't improve a JPEG. I'm saying the company is full of crap in how they are 'selling' the solution and it's not at all necessary to lie as they have. Frankly they should have just ignored anything to do with raw. Just sell a product that can improve JPEGs (if nothing else).

I completely agree with this - it's an application that takes a JPEG and produces a DNG container for an interpolated and otherwise cooked TIFF that may help improve your original with editing in certain use cases. Nothing at all wrong with that and I think if it works for people and provides a use, it should be marketed that way. I think it is disingenuous (at best) to mention "raw" in the name. Maybe JPEG-to-DNG or JPEG-to-TIFF.

One of the things I looked at was whether it would be useful for pulling out any sort of useful shadow detail from poorly exposed JPEGs, which is what I'd want from such an application. I didn't expect it to do well (can't put back what's not there) and it didn't. In general, if I happen to have any JPEGs around, they're pretty nice as it is, so such a tool would have limited use with me anyway. For me, not worth the price, and I don't normally have problems dropping cash on software  :).

That said, it is interesting to see what people are doing with computational photography and machine learning as there are useful nuggets to be had, but the marketing hyperbole is certainly over-the-top here.

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earlybird

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2019, 08:32:41 PM »

I do not understand the basis of the absolutist statement that a lossy file format such as a JPEG image file may not be reconstructed into its source data.

For example; It seems to me that if one knew exactly what protocols were followed when compressing the data into the lossy format then it should be possible to reverse the functions and arrive at a solution that matches the original data.

Is that actually impossible or just highly unlikely?

I understand that there is no single specific recipe for compressing a JPEG file but it does not seem impossible that a neural network can get remarkably close to figuring out what choices were made when the data was thrown out, and then put most of it back together again.


 
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digitaldog

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2019, 08:35:08 PM »

A JPEG simply cannot be converted back to it's original raw data.
Can a baked cake be converted back to all it's individual and separate ingredients? Nope.
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Andrew Rodney
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faberryman

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Re: Topaz: Edit JPG to Raw Files
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2019, 09:00:20 PM »

Why not just shoot RAW in the first place?
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