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Author Topic: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?  (Read 1360 times)

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2018, 09:41:13 AM »

I'm rip Van Winkle.  Don't pay attention to much about gear. But as a old time Nikon film camera user who switched over to Canon digital 12 years ago, as Nikon was so behind with full frame, what is going on? This 850 is like a full 3-4 year cycle ahead of the MarkD series?  45 mb over the 30 mb mark 4, etc etc.

I'm still on Mark 2.. but is anyone going back to Nikon who came from Nikon?

Really Canon should make the mark 5 kill everything: be best in video (over sony/ panasonic), be best pixel count -- 75 mb.. etc etc.. What up the Canon?  I'll pay a bit more.

Finally what up with wifi in cameras? Only goes to a smartphones? It can't cut the tether cord to a computer yet? Is that coming down the pike?  Thanks.

Canon has a DSLR with 51 mpx since 2015.

BJL

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sensor makers: Sony, Canon, Panasonic and formerly a bit of Toshiba
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 10:09:44 AM »

thanks BLJ, Nikon is buying it's sensors from Sony, that is true?
...
Nikon gets a lot of its ILC sensors from Sony, though with some being joint design efforts (Nikon contributing some design technology). Pentax also uses Sony sensors in all its ILCs AFAIK, as does Fujifilm (some with Fujifilm's own "X-trans" color filter design over Sony's chips), and Olympus uses a mix of Sony and Panasonic sensors. The realm of fixed lens "compact" cameras seems to be dominated by Sony sensors these days, though Panasonic uses its own in some models, and Canon might be using a mix of its own and Sony's sensors.

Sony strengthened its dominance of the market for bigger "ILC sized" sensors when it bought Toshiba's sensor business in 2015; Nikon had been using some Toshiba designed sensors. That leaves only Sony, Canon and Panasonic as significant makers of sensors for ILC's, apart from the far lower volume sensor suppliers that Leica uses for some cameras. With Panasonic now partnering with Leica and Sigma on the 35mm format  L-mount system, I expect that Sony, Canon and Panasonic trio to be consolidated as 1-2-3 in sensors for ILC's, in that order.

P. S. a fun fact is that Canon's first "pro" DLSR, the EOS-1D from 2001, used a CCD from Panasonic; it has been all Canon CMOS since then.
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hogloff

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 03:25:26 PM »

Sony is bigger in electronics than Canon, has been making sensors for longer (going back to video camera stuff) and earns far more from them because it supplies so many other companies, across the range from phones to medium format. So it is not so surprising that it is for now a bit ahead of Canon—and mostly in one spec, dynamic range. If anything, it is surprising that Canon had a sensor technology lead for a while, and that was primarily due to one good decision to pursue CMOS sensors while most rivals were still focussed on CCDs.

Oh you are missing a very big spec that Sony sensors contain and that is readout speed which affects things like fps, focusing and EVF refresh rates. If it was truly only Dynamic range that Canon lacks then that is nothing...but it's the stacked sensor design from Sony that Canon just does not do.
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kevs

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »

This was hard to understand, "eadout speed which affects things like fps, focusing and EVF refresh rates. If it was truly only Dynamic range that Canon lacks then that is nothing...but it's the stacked sensor design from Sony that Canon just does not do."

And also, I don't know what ILC means!
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Dinarius

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 04:33:08 PM »

I use Canon. When it comes to firmware updates, they’re a non-event. cf. Hasselblad, constantly improving their gear.

Plenty of independents have shown what Canon cameras are capable of, if you’re brave enough to risk bricking your camera.

When it comes to sensors, it’s pretty much accepted that they’re behind the Sony curve.

But, in everything to do with digital, good is good enough. So, Canon can continue their vein of mediocrity.

If I was starting again, or if I was a pixel-peeper, I’d be using a Sony a7r iii.

But, I’m neither.

D.



« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 04:36:15 PM by Dinarius »
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Rhossydd

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2018, 05:43:38 PM »

I use Canon. When it comes to firmware updates,
I think Canon regard firmware updates as only ever for bug fixes.
I've never understood why they haven't offered updates to add new features (as ML have shown to be possible) even if they charged for them.
Quote
When it comes to sensors, it’s pretty much accepted that they’re behind the Sony curve.
Yes, but it's marginally for most users. It's just that DR is the current obsession on internet forums.
Quote
But, in everything to do with digital, good is good enough. So, Canon can continue their vein of mediocrity.
But sales don't support that view and neither do the reviews. DPReview; D850 = 89% D5 = 89% or 5D iv= 87% 1DxII =89% There's nothing mediocre about those scores.

There's really little to chose between either brand.
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hogloff

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2018, 07:09:33 PM »

This was hard to understand, "eadout speed which affects things like fps, focusing and EVF refresh rates. If it was truly only Dynamic range that Canon lacks then that is nothing...but it's the stacked sensor design from Sony that Canon just does not do."

And also, I don't know what ILC means!

What's hard to understand? The faster you can read the data off the sensor the faster you can process that data so things like viewfinder blackout, AF tracking, exposure computations etc... are done at a much quicker pace...thus allowing up to 20 fps shooting.

ILC -> Interchangeable Lens Camera
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hogloff

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2018, 07:12:49 PM »

Yes, but it's marginally for most users. It's just that DR is the current obsession on internet forums.


Like I said previously, there is much more to a sensor than megapickles and DR. Do some research on the sensor inside the Sony A9 and see all the technology in that sensor that drives the rest of the camera. In the digital world...the camera is the sensor.
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BJL

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Re: What happened to Canon... ILC=Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2018, 10:57:20 PM »

@kevs:
ILC=Interchangeable Lens Camera;
SLRs and mirrorless system cameras
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Dinarius

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2018, 04:08:02 AM »

I think Canon regard firmware updates as only ever for bug fixes.
I've never understood why they haven't offered updates to add new features (as ML have shown to be possible) even if they charged for them.Yes, but it's marginally for most users. It's just that DR is the current obsession on internet forums.But sales don't support that view and neither do the reviews. DPReview; D850 = 89% D5 = 89% or 5D iv= 87% 1DxII =89% There's nothing mediocre about those scores.

There's really little to chose between either brand.

That's precisely my point. In order to continue to sell in huge numbers, you don't have to be the best, just be a recognizable brand that is good enough.

There's a reason why a camera, which can practically make the dinner, is sold for small money (relatively) compared to the overpriced lenses (designed and made mostly by computers and machines) that you're stuck with afterwards.

Thanks heavens for the likes of Sigma. They give us choice.

D.
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Rhossydd

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2018, 04:33:11 AM »

In the digital world...the camera is the sensor.
Exactly what I said, it's only the internet forum pixel peepers that obsess about numbers, because that's all there is to argue about.

In the real world there are plenty of other factors that make people choose cameras. Size, comfort, other facilities like GPS, legacy support of accessories and lenses, battery life, ergonomics, decent software available to use with it's files. There's a lot more to a camera being good and successful than just it's sensor.
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kevs

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2018, 10:33:52 AM »

Dinarius -others, on subject of Sigma, I've never bought a 3rd party lens, but thinking of 11-24 Canon. So expensive, I'll look at Sigmas 12-24. Ever done A/ B test on those 2? (or anyone else here?) Thanks.
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Kirk_C

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon ha. s taken over?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2018, 10:58:34 PM »


thanks Kirk, I never get the 1DX II, why people buy that.


It's a big step above the 5DIV in build quality, it's faster focusing, has a faster frame rate, dual Digic processors, great video quality and better battery life. To me, and to many people I know, it feels like a Pro camera where as the 5D series have always felt like prosumer cameras.
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Dinarius

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2018, 06:05:18 AM »

Dinarius -others, on subject of Sigma, I've never bought a 3rd party lens, but thinking of 11-24 Canon. So expensive, I'll look at Sigmas 12-24. Ever done A/ B test on those 2? (or anyone else here?) Thanks.

If you're considering Sigma, only buy lenses in the ART series.

I have the 85mm 1.4; one of the best lenses I've ever owned. Consistently raved about and rightly so. But, it's NOT a carry around lens. It's quite heavy.

The 24-35mm is also raved about, but I don't own one.

I find DXO as good an indicator of lens quality as anywhere else.

D.
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jmlphotography

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2018, 05:20:38 PM »

I just woke up and thought I was on DPReview.  I'm going back to bed. :-[
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Dan Wells

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2018, 02:12:47 AM »

Probably, right now, the best sensor overall image quality  (short of medium format) on the market is the 45.7 MP Sony sensor (with a side order of Special Nikon Sauce) found in the Nikon Z7 and D850.

Just behind it is its close relative the 42.4 MP Sony sensor from the A7rII and III.

The difference between them isn't the 3 MP - that's not actually noticeable. It's that the Special Nikon Sauce enables ISO 64, and ISO 64 is utterly noiseless with extended dynamic range, if you have the light for it. At ISO 100, good luck telling them apart (the Nikon version is a slightly newer design, and may be a little bit ahead in one parameter or another, but it's very close).

The 50 MP Canon EOS 5Ds sensor trades a tiny bit of extra resolution for about a stop and a half less low-ISO dynamic range than the class leading Sony/Nikon sensors. In many ways, the Canon 50 MP sensor is actually behind the older Sony 36 MP sensor in the Nikon D800/D800e, Sony A7r and A99, Pentax K1 mk1 and mkII and possibly another camera or two in low-ISO image quality.

In APS-C, the champ is some version of the Sony 24 MP or the newer Sony 26 MP sensor - probably the model with Special Fuji Sauce (although that may be due to the Special Fuji Lenses it's often found with). 

Unless you shoot landscape (which I happen to), the right sensor for you may not be the low-ISO image quality champ. You may prefer the fastest sensor around, the sensor with the best video bitrate, the sensor with a particular set of colors you like, or the sensor that comes in the camera that fits your hand, or comes in the camera your favorite lens attaches to. All modern sensors are good enough that any of these are good reasons to choose a system.

. I'm lucky enough that the sensors that match my shooting style happen to come with bodies and lenses I like a lot (my collection includes Nikon Z7 and Fuji APS-C, and what I'm likely to add to right now is my Z system - I can't believe the detail, dynamic range and noiseless performance I'm getting out of that system). I never bought into the D850 (too heavy for how far I hike, especially with the better lenses), nor Sony FF (weather sealing and controls), despite their superb image quality potential, because the Fujis were a better overall fit for me. When the Z7 came out, there was D850 quality in a smaller, lighter, stabilized body with D850 sealing, along with the beginnings of a line of superb smaller lenses (giving up f2.8 )... I have the 24-70, and anxiously await the 14-30 and a lightweight tele zoom (how about a PF diffractive zoom in z-mount, Nikon?).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 02:16:39 AM by Dan Wells »
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kevs

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2018, 01:42:19 PM »

Thanks Dan, good, info, but why was Nikon 10 years behind Canon in digital and then lost 90% of their film users who are now on Canon? Like me...

Should we now switch back to Nikon or Sony?  I think I concur with previous responders here, that's it's just best to stay with Canon... but annoying of course, what you are saying, that Canon is now behind the curve, which is another question.. point of this post.
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guido

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2018, 06:20:48 PM »

Before you let the Sony/Nikon fans warp your perspective on the current mirrorless market, this actual direct comparison might provide some insights...

Mirrorless Camera Comparison: Canon R vs. Nikon Z7 vs. Sony A7R3
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kevs

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2018, 06:25:38 PM »

Guido, I have no current interest in mirrorless or watching 17 min of video. How does it turn out?
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BJL

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Re: What happened to Canon, Nikon has taken over?
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2018, 06:28:35 PM »

If Nikon ever was
... 10 years behind Canon in digital ...
it was the era when Canon had developed the first good, low noise CMOS sensors while Nikon and most others were still using CCDs. Then Sony and others also developed good CMOS sensors, improving on Canon's sensors by moving to a next-generation "column parallel" design with an ADC at bottom of each column of pixels while Canon was still using sensors that required transporting the signal off the sensor chip to external ADCs.

BTW, Canon had now also developed sensors that use the column-parallel approach.
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