Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!

Started by DavidPalermo, December 04, 2018, 02:44:51 pm

Denis de Gannes

Quote "But it only shows Adobe Standard and things like Camera Portrait, Camera Landscape, etc.  I don;t see anything called Sony anything or Camera Neutral."

The profiles that you see Camera Portrait, Landscape etc are profiles created by Lightroom to simulate the profiles used by your Camera model's software.
The profiles you see available for the raw files from your camera model are specific to to the camera model they are produced from. You will not see the camera model named e.g. Sony, Canon, Nikon etc you will not see anything that is not specific to your camera model.
Equip: iMac (Ret. 5K,27"Mid 2015),macOS 10.14.6

Alan Klein

Quote from: Denis de Gannes on December 05, 2018, 09:15:39 pm
Quote "But it only shows Adobe Standard and things like Camera Portrait, Camera Landscape, etc.  I don;t see anything called Sony anything or Camera Neutral."

The profiles that you see Camera Portrait, Landscape etc are profiles created by Lightroom to simulate the profiles used by your Camera model's software.
The profiles you see available for the raw files from your camera model are specific to to the camera model they are produced from. You will not see the camera model named e.g. Sony, Canon, Nikon etc you will not see anything that is not specific to your camera model.

Denis:  So do any of them match the jpeg from the camera?  I shoot JPEG + RAW so I always have both image files.

digitaldog

Quote from: Alan Klein on December 06, 2018, 11:48:25 am
Denis:  So do any of them match the jpeg from the camera?  I shoot JPEG + RAW so I always have both image files.
So you're OK under exposing all your raws doing this?
To answer your question; depends on the settings for the JPEG on the camera. IF you had a setting called "Landscape" for the JPEG (and you actually believe that's what's going on under the hood, a different discussion), you'd look for a camera matching profile called "Landscape" and perhaps, the raw using that profile would 'better" match the JPEG. There's zero guarantee it will match! Adobe may or may not have provided such a camera matching profile; depends on the manufacturer and camera model.
Sounds like you should just shoot JPEGs: you'll expose optimally for that data and you'll get a camera rendering you presumably like because that's what you set on the camera.
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

Alan Klein

Quote from: digitaldog on December 06, 2018, 11:53:19 am
So you're OK under exposing all your raws doing this?
To answer your question; depends on the settings for the JPEG on the camera. IF you had a setting called "Landscape" for the JPEG (and you actually believe that's what's going on under the hood, a different discussion), you'd look for a camera matching profile called "Landscape" and perhaps, the raw using that profile would 'better" match the JPEG. There's zero guarantee it will match! Adobe may or may not have provided such a camera matching profile; depends on the manufacturer and camera model.
Sounds like you should just shoot JPEGs: you'll expose optimally for that data and you'll get a camera rendering you presumably like because that's what you set on the camera.


I shoot jpegs + RAW.  Jpgs set for "normal", whatever that means.  Most of the time I just use the jpegs from vacations that I'm taking. I might increase the saturation and presence  and sharpen a little when I reduce it for slideshows on my UHDTV.   If it's a shot that's having some issue with exposure, than I'll adjust the RAW.  If it's a shot that's really difficult and I want to make sure I capture is correctly, then I'll bracket 7 shots at 1/3's of a stop when I shoot it.  SO I'll have 7 RAWs to choose from.

Why do you say I'm under-exposing my RAWs?  The cameras's histogram and LED viewfinder shows the jpeg interpretation.  So what choice do I have?

digitaldog

Quote from: Alan Klein on December 06, 2018, 03:28:10 pm
Why do you say I'm under-exposing my RAWs?  The cameras's histogram and LED viewfinder shows the jpeg interpretation.  So what choice do I have?
Because you are; you're targeting the exposure for a JPEG, not the raw and the camera Histogram shows you the JPEG data, not the raw. Take one of your raws (shot as a JPEG) and examine the raw Histogram with something like RawDigger. You'll be in for a shock. To answer your question: You have a choice to optimally expose your raws.
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

digitaldog

Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

Chris Kern

Quote from: digitaldog on December 06, 2018, 04:10:36 pm
. . . the camera Histogram shows you the JPEG data, not the raw.


I keep forgetting to ask: why is this?  Is there some technical reason cameras don't display raw histograms?

digitaldog

Quote from: Chris Kern on December 06, 2018, 07:39:24 pm
I keep forgetting to ask: why is this?  Is there some technical reason cameras don't display raw histograms?
There's no technical reason and further, Canon users can get a 'hack' that shows an actual raw Histogram: https://magiclantern.fm
One issue is, so few photographers know (or know and care).
Thankfully, outside of the above hack, there is RawDigger.
https://www.rawdigger.com
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

Alan Klein

I'm still confused about Camera Calibration tile.  It's on Adobe Standard right now and had been before I guess since I started using it.  There are also Camera Standard, Camera Light, Camera, Neutral, Camera  Landscape, Camera Portrait. Camera VIvid etc.

Why is there no setting call "RAW right out of the camera"? 

Also, would Camera Neutral or Adobe Standard or something else be the one with the least applied changes by LR?

digitaldog

Quote from: Alan Klein on December 06, 2018, 08:21:56 pm
I'm still confused about Camera Calibration tile.  It's on Adobe Standard right now and had been before I guess since I started using it.  There are also Camera Standard, Camera Light, Camera, Neutral, Camera  Landscape, Camera Portrait. Camera VIvid etc.
Sigh once again. Let's try this for (what?) the 3rd time: they are CAMERA MATCHING PROFILES.
https://theblog.adobe.com/april-lightroom-adobe-camera-raw-releases-new-profiles/
QuoteWhy is there no setting call "RAW right out of the camera"? 

Have you followed any of the posts here about Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!?
There's an image already posted in reply #46 we could call raw (not RAW) right out of the camera. You like it?  :-\
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

Alan Klein

Yeah I kinda lost track of the point of the thread.  So I'm going to leave it on Adobe Standard the way it's been and stop wasting time.  If it ain't broken, why fix it? 

digitaldog

Quote from: Alan Klein on December 06, 2018, 08:41:31 pm
Yeah I kinda lost track of the point of the thread.  So I'm going to leave it on Adobe Standard the way it's been and stop wasting time.  If it ain't broken, why fix it?
Yes, good idea, yes.
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

LikesToys

You can create a preset in the Develop Module - I call mine Zeros.  To create it, select one test image, then move all the sliders to 0.  You will need to Profile to something neutral - I shoot Canon and use "Camera Faithful".  You should also set the "Calibration" to the latest version you have. Then save the preset.  Hitting the preset will obviously set everything as discussed.  If desired you and use that preset on the Import Module - thus getting no edits at all after the import.  Hope I understood your question.

DP

Quote from: DavidPalermo on December 04, 2018, 02:44:51 pm
I would like to be able to import a RAW file and have Lightroom NOT put any profile or preset to it. 

it is technically not possible with Adobe products - even if you delete all .dcp camera profiles and .xmp profiles for your camera (model), ACR & LR still have simple matrix profiles embedded in their code... so no luck w/ Adobe

Denis de Gannes

December 07, 2018, 08:02:36 pm #74 Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:30:42 pm by Denis de Gannes
Quote from: DP on December 07, 2018, 07:05:03 pm
it is technically not possible with Adobe products - even if you delete all .dcp camera profiles and .xmp profiles for your camera (model), ACR & LR still have simple matrix profiles embedded in their code... so no luck w/ Adobe


Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom are third party applications for processing raw files from supported digital camera models (this is their primary function), if you do not wish to use the Adobe processes and profiles for editing your raw files then you should choose another option. You have the software provided by your camera manufacturer (free gratis when you purchase your camera) then there are numerous  applications that provide alternative / unique and proprietary processes to do the same job,  Adobe Camera Raw/Lightroom, Capture One, SilkyPix, ACD See and at least a dozen more that may suit your taste.
None of them is the best, correct, accurate they just provide a different recipe for processing the raw data.
Applications that work with raw files do not alter the original raw file, so you can process in different applications as many times you desire. When you use these applications you are the creator of the initial output to a viewable rendered file for sharing, printing etc.
To wit Adobe only uses their own processes and profiles or user profiles created specifically for their applications, they cannot utilise other applications processes / profiles as these are proprietary.
Equip: iMac (Ret. 5K,27"Mid 2015),macOS 10.14.6

Mark D Segal

The questions I would ask is which ones of them are systematically better in enough respects to make it worthwhile sacrificing the integrative practicality of the Lightroom Photoshop synergy. Why chase after zeroed settings and linearity above everything else? Yes, there is some merit to starting an editing procedure from the bottom up so one is not undoing and redoing, but really - how fundamentally important is this? The bottom line is what the final product ends up looking like, and how adept we are at getting there quickly and expertly, which really means - whatever software we are using, knowing how to use it well. This of course is a much broader topic than the scope of this thread, so perhaps best started somewhere else. I can think of all kinds of ways in which Lr could be improved; giving users the option of truly zeroed settings may be useful to some, but perhaps not the "killer improvement" this application could use, in lieu of some of the glitz being offered primarily for penetrating the mobile device market.
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

DP

Quote from: Denis de Gannes on December 07, 2018, 08:02:36 pm
Applications that work with raw files do not alter the original raw file


Adobe products actually can alter the original raw file  ;D

DP

Quote from: Mark D Segal on December 07, 2018, 08:16:21 pm
The questions I would ask is which ones of them are systematically better in enough respects to make it worthwhile sacrificing the integrative practicality of the Lightroom Photoshop synergy.


for starters - some people like me do not want to have Adobe's  DAM to be imposed on me... and with LR you have to import first, even if you don't need that... so I use ACR... and LR PS can shove its synergy up the proverbial place.

digitaldog

Quote from: DP on December 07, 2018, 08:31:32 pm
Adobe products actually can alter the original raw file  ;D
Other than this command to update the Edit time (in LR) what can an Adobe product alter?

Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"

digitaldog

Quote from: DP on December 07, 2018, 08:35:21 pm
for starters - some people like me do not want to have Adobe's  DAM to be imposed on me... and with LR you have to import first, even if you don't need that... so I use ACR... and LR PS can shove its synergy up the proverbial place.
In terms of processing raw, there's no difference between LR and ACR with respect to profiles and presets; the actual topic here. They both use the identical raw engine and one can bounce back and forth between ACR and LR (if the same version parity).
Andrew Rodney
Author "Color Management for Photographers"