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Author Topic: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!  (Read 3259 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2018, 10:55:56 pm »

Here's an example of the scanned image without adjustments and the final image adjusted in LR.  Note the histogram for the scanned file stops at around 172.  That's pretty typical of color scans, for me.  So I then start from scratch for each photo using LR to produce the final.  I was wondering if anyone else has a different take on LR presets using film scans?

Well, yes. I wrote a whole book about exactly that kind of stuff - using SilverFast stand-alone or integrating it with Lightroom, Photoshop etc. There are too many considerations to bundle into a forum post and there are reasons for implementing any workflow option I worked out there. But in a nutshell, let me just say here - there are several generally applicable principles no matter what you do: (1) Use the scan and the post scan software for what each does best; there's no religion about this - it's just a matter of what works best where; (2) get the most out of each stage of editing that you reasonably can, in order to maximize editing headroom for the subsequent stages of work, and (3) at the scan stage, it's best to create a low to medium contrast, "open" image with no clipping of either highlights or blacks, and proceed with whatever post-scan editing in whatever software from that basic output. If you produce one scan that respects these characteristics, you won't need to rescan, and you'll have something very amenable to work in any other image editor of your choosing. That is easily achievable in SilverFast, as in some other scan software.

Using a histogram that maxes-out at level 172 makes no inherent sense. Normalize the histogram in the scan software. And once you have a scan with a properly normalized histogram to start with, you don't need any particular presets in Lightroom for doing further work with it. Just import it and adjust as needed.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2018, 10:58:07 pm »

How would I set it when using digital images?
sigh, your scan IS a digital image. The profiles are only accessible for raws. Newest version of LR, accessible from Basic panel.
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Andrew Rodney
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2018, 01:06:40 am »

It’s been many years since I’ve used a method similar to what Alan Klein is referring to.

Certain Scitex scan software called “oXYgen” could save out a file that carried a .DT file extension representing “digital transparency.” Scitex did call their files DT but many users just called them raw. The concept was “SOOM - Scan Once, Output Many.” So, scan at the machine’s full resolution, 16bit, max dynamic range, etc.” Yes, the files were initially very dark (gamma 1.0?) until processed via an interpreter they called oXYgen Open. There was also a Photoshop plugin option to handle certain tasks such as retouching in heavy workflow scenarios, conveniences of TIFF, etc. Fully ICC aware around the year 2000 and the time of Photoshop 5.

The image below is a facsimile of an actual DT image from my files although it may not be the absolute original without later adjustments. One can find at least one finished interpretation here a finished version from same session. (Not from my files.)

« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:11:48 am by Stephen Ray »
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stamper

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2018, 05:42:53 am »

Quote Digital Dog.

Lightroom (Develop module) is (primary) a raw converter. Why are you not using the scanner software to "process" the scans?

unquote

You can process Tiff's ???

digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2018, 09:26:50 am »

Gamma 1.0 images are not dark. Not when tagged with an associated profile that defines that gamma. Dark when untagged and incorrectly assumed another and incorrect gamma.

Yes indeed Develop module handle TIFF. And JPEG and PSD too, the word missed was primary (it is primarily) a raw processor. Those are the facts and why, going full circle, the processing color space in Develop module and ACR is gamma 1.0; originally intended for processing raw data.





The top photo was a linear (gamma1.0) capture without the associated profile seen at the bottom.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:51:52 pm by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2018, 09:32:45 am »

You can't do that in LR. Or many raw converters. You can't do this without settings, zero is a setting.
First of all, this is what raw looks like with one type of previewing raw data:



You probably don't want to view your raws this way but none the less, the above is what raw looks like with very minimal rendering from what is just a big pile of numbers.


Next, you probably want scene referred output based on what you say you want  :D :
http://www.color.org/ICC_white_paper_20_Digital_photography_color_management_basics.pdf
Not at all easy to get depending on the raw converter.
So we're back to your original question about profiles and presets and turning everything OFF. It's not possible. As such, any setting you start with that you are happy with as a starting point if fair game. If that means using Adobe Neutral, so be it and fine.
What you'd start off with using a custom profile could be an interesting area for you to investigate but let's go no farther down that path unless you so desire.

s.

You’re making this wayyyy more complicated than it is! I’m a photographer not a nerd! No offense of course but the problem has been solved for me. Technically, yes you are correct.  I don’t wish to get into a technical discussion about how in reality RAW looks. I know that already. And I also know that there are starting points in Lightroom based on what profile is applied to a RAW file. I mentioned all that already.

Anyway, my question has been answered and I thank you all for that.

Ok, now that that’s out of the way I’ll next figure out the same solution for Capture One! Haha! I’m serious but I’ll post in the Capture One area. 🥴
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2018, 09:44:54 am »

Some of us are nerds and photographers  :D
Happy you got some of the answers you desired.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2018, 10:05:50 am »

Well, yes. I wrote a whole book about exactly that kind of stuff - using SilverFast stand-alone or integrating it with Lightroom, Photoshop etc. There are too many considerations to bundle into a forum post and there are reasons for implementing any workflow option I worked out there. But in a nutshell, let me just say here - there are several generally applicable principles no matter what you do: (1) Use the scan and the post scan software for what each does best; there's no religion about this - it's just a matter of what works best where; (2) get the most out of each stage of editing that you reasonably can, in order to maximize editing headroom for the subsequent stages of work, and (3) at the scan stage, it's best to create a low to medium contrast, "open" image with no clipping of either highlights or blacks, and proceed with whatever post-scan editing in whatever software from that basic output. If you produce one scan that respects these characteristics, you won't need to rescan, and you'll have something very amenable to work in any other image editor of your choosing. That is easily achievable in SilverFast, as in some other scan software.

Using a histogram that maxes-out at level 172 makes no inherent sense. Normalize the histogram in the scan software. And once you have a scan with a properly normalized histogram to start with, you don't need any particular presets in Lightroom for doing further work with it. Just import it and adjust as needed.


Mark  That's pretty much what zI do now.  I set the black and white points to spread out the scan image.  But then leave all other adjustments to be done in LR.   Thanks.

Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2018, 10:08:55 am »

sigh, your scan IS a digital image. The profiles are only accessible for raws. Newest version of LR, accessible from Basic panel.
Sorry, I was referring to RAWs when I'm using my digital camera (Sony RX100iv).  LR applies certain adjustments.  How would I change the initial applying to something different?

Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2018, 10:10:33 am »

Stephan, I was hoping to learn a way to do this with LR  But thanks for the other suggestions.

digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2018, 11:10:32 am »

Sorry, I was referring to RAWs when I'm using my digital camera (Sony RX100iv).  LR applies certain adjustments.  How would I change the initial applying to something different?
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Andrew Rodney
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2018, 01:51:15 pm »

Some of us are nerds and photographers  :D
Happy you got some of the answers you desired.

Hahah... I am teasing mostly! It's GREAT that you and some others really get deep into this. I used to be a nerd to when I worked at Apple... well, perhaps I still am somewhat! Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking about such things.

Thanks for your help!
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kirkt

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2018, 02:25:22 pm »

If you want to start with the Adobe Standard color, but remove the Tone Curve that increases contrast in the midtones and compresses highlights, you can change the Tone Curve embedded in the DCP camera profile to a linear tone curve.  You can use the DNG Editor, but the faster and easier way is to use EXIFTool with the following command:


exiftool -ProfileToneCurve="0 0 1 1" -ProfileName="YourNewProfileInternalName" -o NewProfileName.dcp OriginalProfileName.dcp


This will create a new DCP profile based on the original, but the tone curve contained in the original will be changed to a linear one in the new profile (connecting point 0,0 with point 1,1); likewise, the internal name (the name that gets displayed inside of the ACR and LR interface) in the new profile will be changed to "YourNewProfileInternalName."  The argument after the -o flag is the filename you wish to give the new DCP profile and the final argument is the profile you are feeding exiftool as the basis (for example, Adobe Standard for your camera).

On a Mac, the Adobe Standard Profiles can be found here:


/Library/Application\ Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Adobe\ Standard


And you would put your new linearized profile in your user profile folder here:


/Users/<your username>/Library/Application\ Support/Adobe/CameraRaw


Removing the Tone Curve and linearizing it will remove the contrast in the midtones and expand the highlights, resulting in a flatter file.

See: https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/overriding-raw-converter-default-adjustments-settings

and take a look at the comments, where this technique is discussed (using exiftool).

Have fun!

Kirk
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 05:27:08 pm by kirkt »
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kirkt

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2018, 02:38:33 pm »

Just be advised that this will cause color to change, so test it for yourself.  If you want a linear profile with "correct" color then it is probably best to create your own profile with a custom tone curve - use, for example, Anders Torger's terrific profile tool LumaRiver Profile Designer.

Kirk
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Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2018, 03:18:06 pm »


Andrew, I don't see the Profile section in my Basic.  I'm using LR6 perpetual and looking at Sony ARW RAW files for an RX100iv camera.

DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2018, 03:33:03 pm »

Andrew, I don't see the Profile section in my Basic.  I'm using LR6 perpetual and looking at Sony ARW RAW files for an RX100iv camera.

It's been awhile since I used that version but if memory serves it is down in the Calibration section... all the way down on right in Develop module.
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2018, 03:39:33 pm »

Andrew, I don't see the Profile section in my Basic.  I'm using LR6 perpetual and looking at Sony ARW RAW files for an RX100iv camera.
Sigh (Again), I wrote "newest version" earlier. Now you inform me you are two versions back. Anyway, what David said is correct.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2018, 03:48:04 pm »

OK I found it in Camera Calibration. But it only shows Adobe Standard and things like Camera Portrait, Camera Landscape, etc.  I don;t see anything called Sony anything or Camera Neutral.  Could that be because I'm using LR6 perpetual?

digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2018, 03:57:42 pm »

OK I found it in Camera Calibration. But it only shows Adobe Standard and things like Camera Portrait, Camera Landscape, etc.  I don;t see anything called Sony anything or Camera Neutral.  Could that be because I'm using LR6 perpetual?
Such profiles don't exist for your camera. Which is why you'll see for my Sony RX10, I built my own.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Klein

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2018, 06:14:08 pm »

Ok. Thanks.
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