Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?

[kers]

I think Nikon needs to bring something special for the Olympic games and have not enough manpower to do it all.
yes i agree an open lensmount would serve Nikon well, eventually.
But at the moment they have so few lenses out for the Z that people would buy too many third party lenses, cannibalizing upcoming Nikon Z lenses.

[Martin Kristiansen]

No doubt as to the equality of the lenses Nikon is releasing but I am surprised at what is being launched. Commercially at least I have to have a 70 to 200, it’s my bread and butter lens along with the 90mm macro. Two things bother me with the Nikon Z lens roll out. The choice of focal lengths and the slow pace. 

[Fraktal]

For shooting low light situations the SonyA7RM3 beats the Nikon Z by far. For me this is a dealbreaker.

[KLaban]

Apart from the 85mm on order and perhaps a couple of fast and extremely compact manual focus primes - think Leica M - to use with that superb Z EVF but optimised for the Z mount, which admittedly are more likely to come from third party manufacturers, Nikon has delivered everything I'm ever going to need of the system.

My needs are simple, as is my work.

[armand]

I'll give Nikon until Sony launches the A7iv. If Sony continues the improvements from the A7Riv and Nikon didn't change I will likely switch.
What irks me the most is that they closed the mount, and for what? It's not like their focus is better than Sony. And you lose all the third party which currently add a lot to Sony. The other thing is that I still get banding when I try to push the files to the limit of their theoretical dynamic range, which practically reduces it.

On the flipside I got many keepers lately with the Z7 24-70 F4 combo, more than my average; still not sure it's the camera though.

[gkroeger]

I would certainly be more comfortable buying into the Z system if Nikon had either opened up the Z mount, or licensed it to a few other companies. I would love to put Zeiss lenses on a Nikon Z, but I am not going to futz around with adapters with sketchy QC and firmware.

OTOH, Sony hasn't shut the door yet. The fact that they still haven't implemented lossless compression (a technique taught in into CS classes) or focus stacking/bracketing is astonishing to me. Compared to the software they have developed for subject and eye tracking, these would seem trivial.

And there is still the big slow gorilla in the corner. Let's see what the dynamic range improvements are on the new Canon 90D/M6.  Assuming the same pixel technology, that would yield a 76MB FF sensor.

It's been one year since the Z was announced. Sony has leapfrogged the Z7 in MP and Canon will no doubt do the same in the near future. So beyond Nikon's ability to get lenses out the door, we need to see if they can keep up on the camera/sensor end. Seems like they have about a year to advance the Z7. More than that and they will get lapped by the field.

[faberryman]

It's been one year since the Z was announced. Sony has leapfrogged the Z7 in MP and Canon will no doubt do the same in the near future. So beyond Nikon's ability to get lenses out the door, we need to see if they can keep up on the camera/sensor end. Seems like they have about a year to advance the Z7. More than that and they will get lapped by the field.

The question is when will Sony sell the 61MP sensor to Nikon. Sony is in the drivers seat on that.

[gkroeger]

Sony semiconductor has had public data sheets on 61MP sensors since last fall... at least implying that they are for sale. Some sources say the semiconductor and consumer camera divisions are completely separate or even in competition, but of course it is hard to know the reality without being on the inside. Certainly Sony has allowed Fuji to use a newer 26 MP APSC sensor than they are themselves using in the A6xxx line.

[John Camp]

At this point, more pixels don't impress me, unless they come with three digits, and I certainly wouldn't change camera systems to get them. I've been working my Z6 fairly hard, but I *really* need that 70-200 -- and I would prefer it in a compact f4, but I'll take what I can get at this point, as long as it is more compact than my F-mount f2.8 plus the FTZ. I'll get the 85 as soon as it's available. The two zooms with the 85 would pretty much make the system for me. Everything else I can wait for. I like the Z6 enough that I'd buy the Z7 as a companion, but right now people are talking about the possible announcement of a more advanced high-pixel Z, so I may wait a while. (I might not get it, but I might be able to pick up a new Z7 cheaply. 8-))

Gotta say, as I've said before, I don't understand why Nikon's lens roadmap is being filled out so slowly. I'm a longtime Nikon guy, but if I weren't...I might not jump into the Z system simply because of the lack of native lenses. If Nikon doesn't know that people are thinking that, they need to get a new consumer research team.

[BernardLanguillier]

At this point, more pixels don't impress me, unless they come with three digits, and I certainly wouldn't change camera systems to get them. I've been working my Z6 fairly hard, but I *really* need that 70-200 -- and I would prefer it in a compact f4, but I'll take what I can get at this point, as long as it is more compact than my F-mount f2.8 plus the FTZ. I'll get the 85 as soon as it's available. The two zooms with the 85 would pretty much make the system for me. Everything else I can wait for. I like the Z6 enough that I'd buy the Z7 as a companion, but right now people are talking about the possible announcement of a more advanced high-pixel Z, so I may wait a while. (I might not get it, but I might be able to pick up a new Z7 cheaply. 8-))

Gotta say, as I've said before, I don't understand why Nikon's lens roadmap is being filled out so slowly. I'm a longtime Nikon guy, but if I weren't...I might not jump into the Z system simply because of the lack of native lenses. If Nikon doesn't know that people are thinking that, they need to get a new consumer research team.

Nikon is a super conservative company, at least on higher mgt side.

They still live in a old slow changing world.

They probably have the best engineers in the business, but they don't have the business ambition to invest at the height of the stakes IMHO.

I believe that they are not looking at this move to mirrorless as opportunity to grow, but as a risk they have to mitigate.

The Z lenses will be the best when they hit the market... regardless of whether Nikon still has some customers to use them.

The Z platform has been selling well, so they have obvisouly hit the best possible positioning and the lens roadmap is great, but the pace of release is way too slow.

Cheers,
Bernard

[D Fuller]

At this point, more pixels don't impress me, unless they come with three digits, and I certainly wouldn't change camera systems to get them. I've been working my Z6 fairly hard, but I *really* need that 70-200 -- and I would prefer it in a compact f4, but I'll take what I can get at this point, as long as it is more compact than my F-mount f2.8 plus the FTZ. I'll get the 85 as soon as it's available. The two zooms with the 85 would pretty much make the system for me. Everything else I can wait for. I like the Z6 enough that I'd buy the Z7 as a companion, but right now people are talking about the possible announcement of a more advanced high-pixel Z, so I may wait a while. (I might not get it, but I might be able to pick up a new Z7 cheaply. 8-))

Gotta say, as I've said before, I don't understand why Nikon's lens roadmap is being filled out so slowly. I'm a longtime Nikon guy, but if I weren't...I might not jump into the Z system simply because of the lack of native lenses. If Nikon doesn't know that people are thinking that, they need to get a new consumer research team.

Since the bulk of the advantages of the Z mount accrue to wide angle lenses, and Nikon has excellent f-mount telephotos, I think Nikon assumes that they have 70-200 covered with the excellent f/4.0 and class-leading f/2.8. I’m not sure they’re right, but I think that’s influencing their strategy.

[chez]

Nikon is a super conservative company, at least on higher mgt side.

They still live in a old slow changing world.

They probably have the best engineers in the business, but they don't have the business ambition to invest at the height of the stakes IMHO.

I believe that they are not looking at this move to mirrorless as opportunity to grow, but as a risk they have to mitigate.

The Z lenses will be the best when they hit the market... regardless of whether Nikon still has some customers to use them.

The Z platform has been selling well, so they have obvisouly hit the best possible positioning and the lens roadmap is great, but the pace of release is way too slow.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well since the DSLR market is shrinking, I sure hope Nikon is looking at mirrorless as a growth opportunity.

[BernardLanguillier]

Well since the DSLR market is shrinking, I sure hope Nikon is looking at mirrorless as a growth opportunity.

If they did they would have invested to increase their ability to design and deliver products to the market at a faster pace.

The facts at hand obviously tell us that they haven’t.

Cheers,
Bernard

[John Camp]

If they did they would have invested to increase their ability to design and deliver products to the market at a faster pace.

The facts at hand obviously tell us that they haven’t.

Cheers,
Bernard

But their roadmap show them being delivered at a faster rate...or at least suggested a faster delivery rate. I wonder if they had production problems? The 85 will be out in a week, that will help. I agree with Bernard's assessment of their engineering talent -- once you become familiar with Nikon, it seems like you can use anything they make because the ergonomics are so good. It didn't even feel like a huge switch from a D800 to a Z. I may have to take a look at the F mount f4 if I don't hear something soon...

 

[chez]

If they did they would have invested to increase their ability to design and deliver products to the market at a faster pace.

The facts at hand obviously tell us that they haven’t.

Cheers,
Bernard

The fact at hand maybe show reality within Nikon and shrinking camera revenues. They just are not delivering anything lately at any pace be it mirrorless or DSLR. Canon appears to be picking up the pace with both DSLR releases as well as mirrorless. Sony just keeps on plowing ahead.

[BernardLanguillier]

The fact at hand maybe show reality within Nikon and shrinking camera revenues. They just are not delivering anything lately at any pace be it mirrorless or DSLR. Canon appears to be picking up the pace with both DSLR releases as well as mirrorless. Sony just keeps on plowing ahead.

In a declining market the winner wins by gaining market share over its competitors, which results from investment.

In better differentiated products, in smart marketing, in sales,...

In other words in making the company look better.

My view is that a very easy move for Nikon would be to publish an updated roadmap with 5 top lenses the market is expecting.

Cheers,
Bernard

[DP]

Certainly Sony has allowed Fuji to use a newer 26 MP APSC sensor than they are themselves using in the A6xxx line.

Sony Imaging is not using 26mp sensor ... they use 24mp sensor.

[gkroeger]

That's what I meant... Sony allows Fuji to use the new 26 MP sensor while they (surprisingly) still use an older 24 MP sensor themselves.

[chez]

In a declining market the winner wins by gaining market share over its competitors, which results from investment.

In better differentiated products, in smart marketing, in sales,...

In other words in making the company look better.

My view is that a very easy move for Nikon would be to publish an updated roadmap with 5 top lenses the market is expecting.

Cheers,
Bernard

Only if they can deliver. They already published a list which they are having a hard time delivering. Cry wolf too many times and people will ignore.

[chez]

That's what I meant... Sony allows Fuji to use the new 26 MP sensor while they (surprisingly) still use an older 24 MP sensor themselves.

Business decision to keep development costs on their APS-C line to a minimum. How much will 2mp really matter? Their 24mpix cameras were selling very well.