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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 24821 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #420 on: June 18, 2019, 07:13:32 am »

Again with the mount discussion.

Does it really matter? Really and honestly and truly?

For aperture didn't Sony state that their theoretical limit is f0.6 something?

Which is completely irrelevant since the topic isn't the max theoretical aperture but the image quality achievable in corners.

I understand that some don't find this topic very interesting (in particular Sony users it would seem :))), I just thought the Canon video did a good job at explaining why the mount does matter. Shouldn't this be celebrated? I am writing something extremely positive about Canon!  8)

This may be relevant for some photographers trying to figure out what platform to invest in.

I must say I have a hard time understanding why this topic is so emotional. Sony has a great system although the mount is not the best. Why the urge to question the facts?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 08:57:04 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #421 on: June 18, 2019, 09:00:16 am »

Yes, tracking indeed.

Does  your friend use the 200 f2.0 for tracking running couples? The bride trying to escape? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Ever shot a wedding? Ever tried to track a bride walking through a crowd of people throwing confetti? Or how about the first dance? Tracking not useful?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #422 on: June 18, 2019, 09:06:19 am »

Ever shot a wedding? Ever tried to track a bride walking through a crowd of people throwing confetti? Or how about the first dance? Tracking not useful?

Yes, I have shot a couple of weddings in fact (three as far as I recall). Still don't know why I accepted these requests since I am not qualified, but my friends seemed to like the results for some strange reasons. ;)

Tracking a person walking is not an issue at all for the Z7 and its eye AF capability will in fact help in some cases.

My point though was that the Z7, thanks to its EVF, offers significant advantage for some shooting scenarios over the OVF of the D850 and D5. I believe I specifically mentioned paused scenes where perfect eye focus is important and the EVF is superior for those. I believe that you should be able to relate to this as an a7rIII/a9 user, right?

But anyway, no point in discussing your friend's preferences obviously. Again, I fully trust him to know what's good for him.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:49:23 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #423 on: June 18, 2019, 02:40:36 pm »

Read this evening that Nikon are planning on launching what they described as a mirrorless equivalent of the D5. It was on Petapixel I read it I think and was confirmed by Nikons President

I have to admit being so far disappointed in what Nikon and Canon have released in terms of mirrorless. You have to do a lot of talking to make a case for either company doing anything to alarm Sony at the moment. I firmly believe competition will be good for all of us no matter what platform we are on. At the moment Iím simply not seeing it. I hope Nikon and Canon have something on the way.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #424 on: June 18, 2019, 04:51:05 pm »

Yet if you compare a Z6 to an a7III, what are the aspects for which the Sony is superior (same question for Z7 vs a7rIII)?

If you look at facts youíll see that
- AF is a bit better on the Sony in good hands
- it has two memory card slots
- it manages a bit better continuous shooting (EVF blackout)
But, from what I have experienced, for the rest itís either a draw or the Nikon is ahead. That is for stills since on video the Nikon is pretty much ahead on all aspects even before raw firmware is released.

So Iíd be interested in the actual aspects where you are impressed by the Sony and not by the Nikon?

Canon is indeed far behind.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 05:07:51 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Manoli

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #425 on: June 19, 2019, 02:09:56 am »

So Iíd be interested in the actual aspects where you are impressed by the Sony and not by the Nikon?

The sales figures.

Quote
The report (BCN) states that the top three models throughout April were the Sony A7 III (38.9%), followed by the Canon EOS RP (16.5%), with the current Canon EOS R flagship model (12.3%) in third place. Nikon's Z6 and Z7 are in fourth and seventh places respectively, with all remaining positions in the top 10 occupied by Sony's models.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #426 on: June 19, 2019, 02:35:14 am »

Yet if you compare a Z6 to an a7III, what are the aspects for which the Sony is superior (same question for Z7 vs a7rIII)?

If you look at facts youíll see that
- AF is a bit better on the Sony in good hands
- it has two memory card slots
- it manages a bit better continuous shooting (EVF blackout)
But, from what I have experienced, for the rest itís either a draw or the Nikon is ahead. That is for stills since on video the Nikon is pretty much ahead on all aspects even before raw firmware is released.

So Iíd be interested in the actual aspects where you are impressed by the Sony and not by the Nikon?

Canon is indeed far behind.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well Some would consider dual card slots, better continuous shooting and better auto focus not inconsiderable issues.  I wouldnít agree that the Sony is marginally ahead at AF in the hands of a skilled user as being anywhere near the truth of it by the way. Sony AF is faster and easier to use. But here we go getting into the arena of subjective issues. I remember the howls of derision when Sony was producing cameras with one card slot. Amazing how quiet that little story has become. Suddenly it seems to be OK.

When you say for the rest of it itís a draw or Nikon is ahead what exactly are you talking about? Ergonomics and menus perhaps? Again subjective, I prefer the Sony. Video I am not sure. Weirdly about half my turnover this month is going to be video. I have not looked at Nikons video. Some reviewers claim it looks over sharpened but I have no evidence for that. Sony video is pretty good. Easy to sell anyway. Ton of lenses available for Sony video of course, hardly anything for the Nikon.

I would also like to draw attention to the fact that you are comparing the top Nikon mirrorless to the second best Sony mirrorless.

Short story is I was hoping for a Nikon that would compete with the A9, not something that tries to compete with the A7Riii and I would have hoped for more useful lenses from the start. The lens line up seems to be aimed at the enthusiast and that is how I see myself I also need to make a living at this and the Nikon mirrorless is not even on the map for commercial work at the moment. Give it another 18 months and letís hope it all looks better. I am sure the threat posed by Nikon and Canon has already lead to improvements in Sony cameras. Such as the latest brilliant firmware.

I was kind of hedging my bets before making a solid move to Sony, buying second hand gear a generation back before committing. In honesty I was slanted a bit towards Sony but since Nikons and Canons efforts I have bought an A9 and an A7riii. I have committed to mirrorless as I did to digital in 1996. Do you think I could tackle the varieties of work needed to survive in this weird market with what Canon or Nikon has available in mirrorless?

Itís all personal isnít it. We all have different needs. To say a camera is better without saying for what is meaningless. Best camera when I was in the Air Force was an RMK. Amazing camera. Shot rolls of film 10 inches wide and 500 ft long. Not great for street photography you could say. Took two strong men to pick the thing up.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #427 on: June 19, 2019, 03:04:28 am »

- yes, there is no a9 competitor, correct and I agree that this is an issue if you only shoot Nikon with mirrorless bodies
- the discussion around the lack of dual slot on the Nikon has internet still shaking, it was discussed at nauseum, probably more than any other spec aspect in a camera before. This is a problem and I would far prefer them to have 2 slots even if XQD is indeed the most reliable memory card format ever
- the Sony a7riii AF is superior, but the Z7 AF is no slouch either, in particular since firmware 2.0
- the aspects I find superior on the Nikon are: the mount and its long time promise in terms of lenses, the colors I find more pleasant (call it subjective it you like), the EVF experience, ergonomics (including but not only menus), weather sealing, possibility to adapt any lens (including Sony FE lenses), thinner sensor glass (good for glass adaption), ISO 64, auto-ISO implementation

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #428 on: June 19, 2019, 03:17:05 am »

What is special about Nikonís auto iso implementation? Not being difficult. I am a unaware of this issue? Sony does go to 50 ISO but this is an expanded ISO. I generally shoot around 200 iso so not an issue for me. Is Nikonís 64 iso that important? Personally I really dislike Nikonís menus. I find the way things are grouped totally counter intuitive. Different strokes and all that.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #429 on: June 19, 2019, 03:33:25 am »

What is special about Nikonís auto iso implementation? Not being difficult. I am a unaware of this issue? Sony does go to 50 ISO but this is an expanded ISO. I generally shoot around 200 iso so not an issue for me. Is Nikonís 64 iso that important? Personally I really dislike Nikonís menus. I find the way things are grouped totally counter intuitive. Different strokes and all that.

- Auto ISO: two aspects that I like. 1. the ability to use it in M mode with A and S fixed and ISO moving up freely to ensure correct exposure, 2. the ability to link the minimal shutter speed to the actual focal lengths when using a zoom lens with a +/- n stop built-in compensation
- ISO 64: super clean files without any noise
- Menus: I agree that this is a matter of getting used to. I personally dislike the menus of my RX100 MkV. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #430 on: June 19, 2019, 03:37:25 am »

Sony also does that with auto iso. I use it in manual quite often. You can also link it to focal length with normal fast and faster. Normal wonít allow SS to go below focal length. Faster puts it above focal
Length and faster at twice focal length. Obviously you can also set maximum and minimum ranges for iso when set to auto and also a minimum shutter speed.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #431 on: June 19, 2019, 04:05:15 am »

Sony also does that with auto iso. I use it in manual quite often. You can also link it to focal length with normal fast and faster. Normal wonít allow SS to go below focal length. Faster puts it above focal
Length and faster at twice focal length. Obviously you can also set maximum and minimum ranges for iso when set to auto and also a minimum shutter speed.

Great, they have improved it then. That's good to know.

It appears that other brands have not yet adopted this level of advancement.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 09:54:32 am by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #432 on: June 19, 2019, 07:52:20 am »

I really like that Sony licenses its lens / camera interface which allows third party lenses such as Zeiss Batis and Sigma to release lenses with native like autofocus. I remember when I shot Canon, third party lenses were always not as good with AF as the native Canon lenses. This is a huge benefit with the Sony system...no reverse engineered third party lenses.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #433 on: June 19, 2019, 08:53:31 am »

Very good point indeed! I fully agree.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #434 on: June 19, 2019, 11:11:31 am »

Nikons mount being so much larger means you will be able to mount Sony lenses onto the Nikon but you wonít be able to go the other way. Thatís good for Nikon users but not good for Nikon. Any might sell more glass. Personally I donít know if that will happen. Iím not fond of adapters for my main working glass. Itís OK for a few old exotics like my collection of Minolta Rokkor lenses. Perhaps others see it differently.
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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #435 on: June 19, 2019, 12:51:17 pm »

Nikons mount being so much larger means you will be able to mount Sony lenses onto the Nikon but you wonít be able to go the other way. Thatís good for Nikon users but not good for Nikon. Any might sell more glass. Personally I donít know if that will happen. Iím not fond of adapters for my main working glass. Itís OK for a few old exotics like my collection of Minolta Rokkor lenses. Perhaps others see it differently.

When I moved from Canon to Sony, I kept my Canon lenses and adapted them. I still use my Canon mount Zeiss lenses for my landscape photography and really see no reason to get anything else. For my travel lenses, I've moved mainly to native Sony mount mainly for the better AF and reduced size and weight.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #436 on: June 19, 2019, 01:00:27 pm »

For landscape I would also not change. But if I moved from Sony to Nikon, unlikely now, I would want native lenses and would use adapted lenses begrudgingly.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #437 on: June 19, 2019, 06:48:52 pm »

For landscape I would also not change. But if I moved from Sony to Nikon, unlikely now, I would want native lenses and would use adapted lenses begrudgingly.

The thing is that one manufacturer never offers the best lenses for every focal length.

It was true in the DSLR days when many Canon shooters were happy to be able to adapt the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 that had no equivalent in Canon line up for 8 or 9 years.

I would not attempt to adapt lenses needed fast AF such as a 400mm f2.8, but I will be very happy to be able to use the remarkable Sony 135mm f1.8 on my Z7.

Nikon probably think that this is bad for them, but I feel just the opposite. The name of the game today is to attract as many photographers as possible to each mirrorless mount. And Nikon is scoring points by having the option to use more lenses from other manufacturers thanks to adapters, especially now that the portfolio of native lenses is still very limited.

I personnally find that it is completely stupid of Nikon not to open, or at least license, the specs of their mount to others. But I am not surprised. Nikon is a brilliant engineering company, but it completely lacks any sense of business innovation... even when it's about replicating what Sony did 6 years ago. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #438 on: June 19, 2019, 07:37:34 pm »

The thing is that one manufacturer never offers the best lenses for every focal length.

It was true in the DSLR days when many Canon shooters were happy to be able to adapt the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 that had no equivalent in Canon line up for 8 or 9 years.

I would not attempt to adapt lenses needed fast AF such as a 400mm f2.8, but I will be very happy to be able to use the remarkable Sony 135mm f1.8 on my Z7.

Nikon probably think that this is bad for them, but I feel just the opposite. The name of the game today is to attract as many photographers as possible to each mirrorless mount. And Nikon is scoring points by having the option to use more lenses from other manufacturers thanks to adapters, especially now that the portfolio of native lenses is still very limited.

I personnally find that it is completely stupid of Nikon not to open, or at least license, the specs of their mount to others. But I am not surprised. Nikon is a brilliant engineering company, but it completely lacks any sense of business innovation... even when it's about replicating what Sony did 6 years ago. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, keeping their lens interface specs closed will limit how well both adapted and even native 3rd party lenses will work with the Nikon cameras. Can you imagine the complexities for an adapter to reverse engineer the Canon mount and then convert the signals to a reversed engineered Nikon mount.

Even with Sony's open mount specs, adapted lenses don't AF nearly as well as adapted lenses. Having to kludge your way through the mount interface will just impact the AF more.

It's one thing to be able to use many different manual focus lenses on your camera...but to use 3rd party lenses with AF will just limit you. I'd definitely recommend using native lenses if you want quick reliable AF in all sorts of light.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #439 on: August 29, 2019, 10:56:33 am »

These past days have seen major progress from Canon and Sony on the mirrorless front. Canon in particular with 2 of the 3 f2.8 zooms close to availability.

I am still in love with my Z7 and Z6, but I feel that Nikon is messing up big time in terms of execution of their roadmap. Yes the 85mm f1.8 will be one of the best 85mm ever designed and will offer incredible performance per US$, yes the 24mm f1.8 also. But we already had 3 lenses covering 24mm and excellent ones at that.

Any way you look at it, itís a major failure of Nikon not to have a native top class 70-200mm f2.8 for Z mount one year in the life of the Z platform.

Cheers,
Bernard
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