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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52698 times)

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #400 on: June 13, 2019, 09:48:37 am »

Yes, this is very clear indeed. I would do the same if I were them and I am very happy to see them pushing then enveloppe. As I said, it's a great time to be a photographer.

Cheers,
Bernard

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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #401 on: June 13, 2019, 10:34:38 am »

Not sure about that. I am able to keep body and soul together and in my market a sports photographer will get paid about $200 to shoot an international sporting event. How many of those would they have to shoot to pay for the Sony glass? I can’t shoot at those rates. I’m sure people shooting for the olympics get more than that but how big is that market?

Purely from depreciation you should probably count on $200 per month, which should come from fairly specific pictures. Doable for dedicated photographers. I imagine most photographers are better served renting one. There may be specific magazines or e-zines that purchase one and send it to whomever they hire as clicker.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #402 on: June 13, 2019, 03:05:16 pm »

I believe (but am not sure) that major magazines and newspapers still have staff sports photographers who have access to the publication's library of equipment, especially big lenses. I can see three ways of dealing with bodies - the photographer may own them, the publication may issue them to a particular photographer long-term, or the publication may keep them in the equipment room - but big lenses make a lot of sense to keep in the equipment room. Every photographer wants their bodies set up a little bit differently - exposure mode, AF mode, custom button assignments, etc., so they make sense to keep with an individual photographer. On the other hand, one 600mm f4 is much the same of another of the same brand - the only customization is half a dozen switches that can be set in seconds. A given photographer may need a 300mm one day, a 400mm the next, and occasionally an 800mm, so it might make sense for those lenses to be a central resource, with Lensrentals as a backup when everybody needs the same lens on the same day.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #403 on: June 17, 2019, 02:47:01 pm »

https://m.dpreview.com/news/4317544813/video-canon-explains-how-its-new-rf-lens-mount-is-better-than-smaller-older-mouns

More of Canon doing Nikon’s marketing much better than Nikon themselves... ;)

CA is indeed basically absent from the Z lenses I have used, in particular the 50mm f1.8 and 24-70mm f2.8 while they have not attempted to fully correct distorsion and light fall off that are easy to correct with software when needed.

Will Sony talented lens designers be able to compensate for their inherent mount limitation? Will Canon and Nikon’s AF teams be able to fully catch up in terms of eye AF/mirrorless AF tracking technology?

These maybe the relevant questions when picking a mirrorless mount moving forward if money isn’t part of the equation.

When money is parf of the story a majority of DSLR owners stick to their own brand due to better adaptability of legacy lenses and this is why the number of R bodies sold vs Z ones is a worrying sign for Canon...

In the meantime I sold my D850 last week on an auction site after 21 months of usage for only... 40 US$ less than the price of a new body in Tokyo... the DSLR days are far from over it seems. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:11:32 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #404 on: June 17, 2019, 03:07:11 pm »

https://m.dpreview.com/news/4317544813/video-canon-explains-how-its-new-rf-lens-mount-is-better-than-smaller-older-mouns

More of Canon doing Nikon’s marketing much better than Nikon themselves... ;)

CA is indeed basically absent from the Z lenses I have used, in particular the 50mm f1.8 and 24-70mm f2.8 while they have not attempted to fully correct distorsion and light fall off that are easy to correct with software when needed.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's very obviously the other way around: CA is very easy to correct in processing, not so with distortion. Correcting distortion would reduce any resolution and sharpness advantages that a larger mount with more parallel projection may provide.

The only issue is that CA needs to be corrected prior to debayering, and most converters don't do that.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #405 on: June 17, 2019, 03:14:34 pm »

It's very obviously the other way around: CA is very easy to correct in processing, not so with distortion. Correcting distortion would reduce any resolution and sharpness advantages that a larger mount with more parallel projection may provide.

The only issue is that CA needs to be corrected prior to debayering, and most converters don't do that.

You are talking about lateral CA, I am talking about both lateral and longitudinal CA that is impossible to correct by software.

Besides the correction of distorsion only has a tiny impact on sharpness.

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #406 on: June 17, 2019, 03:33:28 pm »

You are talking about lateral CA, I am talking about both lateral and longitudinal CA that is impossible to correct by software.

Besides the correction of distorsion only has a tiny impact on sharpness.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, why don't you walk us thru how a larger mount impacts longitudinal CA?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #407 on: June 17, 2019, 03:45:10 pm »

Well, why don't you walk us thru how a larger mount impacts longitudinal CA?

Who is “us”? :D I hope you realize that your wording is not pleasant because the usage of “us” instead of “me” is designed to imply a us against you that is both based on nothing but thin air and discriminative in essence.

Canon has done the job in the video I linked to.

Besides just look at Diglloyd’s assessment of the Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 S regarding it’s CA behavior if you don’t believe my views on this.

But what exactly are you reacting against?
- the optical advantage of the R/Z mounts over Sony’s FE mount?
- the actual impact on lenses performance?
- the different design choices made by Canon/Nikon on how to leverage these inherent mount advantages?
- ...

Let’s not forget that Canon has been telling us about the importance of the mount since the early days of EOS. The better mount was the reason to move away from Nikon... we haven’t forgotten that have we?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:00:43 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #408 on: June 17, 2019, 04:29:16 pm »

Bottom line, if you cannot take amazing photos with today’s lenses...no matter which brand including so called 3rd party.. i’d start looking at the person pressing that shutter than the equipment. I’d bet big bucks anyone here claiming superiority of any lenses could not accurately tell which lens was used to take the images of prints hanging in a high end gallery.

All this chest beating claiming one lens is so much better than another or one mount is so much better than another is nothing more than fanboyism gone wild.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #409 on: June 17, 2019, 07:15:35 pm »

All this chest beating claiming one lens is so much better than another or one mount is so much better than another is nothing more than fanboyism gone wild.

Some lenses are better than others, this is a fact of life. Whether that matters to this or that photographic application is a different story. I personally feel that the aspects that are most visible in final photographs are color purity (lack of CA), look of bokeh and micro contrast but other may have different preferences.

Whether I could identify with what lens a given image was taken is an interesting question. I may be able to for some lenses, not for others. Among my own lenses I am pretty much able to tell, but I may have vague memories of what I was using also, so it's hard to tell for sure.

Some eye AF systems work better than others and I personally think that this can make a difference, but also that anyone unable to make the AF of most current camera work for actual photographic applications is lacking skills. Yet, I don't call fanboys those claiming that there are differences... because I know there are differences.

The same applies to many other aspects of camera equipment: auto ISO, ergonomics, weather sealing, flash synchro speed, flash duration, quality of EVF,... and there are factual differences one way or another along all these dimensions. Some matter, some don't, some matter to some people, some to others.

Isn't the ultimate fanboyism the categorization of what matters and what doesn't based on the perceived strong points of one's own system?... :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #410 on: June 17, 2019, 10:42:17 pm »

Ultimately the larger mount may work out for Nikon. At the moment it’s all quite theoretical since we have what, three lenses? Are many third party lens manufacturers making glass for the Z mount?

 How long will it be before the z6 7 cameras are a part of a system that could stand on its own? I realize these things take time and it took Sony a long time to develop the A series into a proper system. Sony was pilloried for a long time due to lack of glass, bad batteries and single card slots. In some of these areas Nikon finds itself in the same position.

It took a leap of faith and made me a bit nervous to go with mirrorless three years ago and with Sony in particular. My appetite for that type of risk is now much reduced and at the moment neither Nikon nor Canon have a mirrorless offering that is even close to standing alone without support from a back up of a traditional DSLR body and lots of adapted glass.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #411 on: June 17, 2019, 10:59:39 pm »

Indeed, they currently have 5 lenses only: 35 f1.8, 50 f1.8, 14-30 f4, 24-70 f4 and 24-70 f2.8 with the 70-200 f2.8 and 85mm f1.8 expected around summer time frame.

The adapted Nikon F glass through FTS works pretty well too. I shot moving kids the whole Sunday with my 200 f2.0 using eye AF with decent results. Hit ratio not as high as I would like, but got some great images. It’s such a sweet lens btw.

Besides Sony FE glass will soon be usable with AF through an adapter while the reverse never will...

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #412 on: June 17, 2019, 11:10:24 pm »

I have a friend who is a high end wedding photographer. I think the 200mm f2 is his favourite lens. He produces incredible results with it. I asked him if he was going to buy a Z7 and his answer was “why should I”.  It’s been a few months now I am curious to see if he has changed his mind. End of last year he made a considerable investment in Fuji M4/3.  He jumps between the systems depending on what he is shooting. D5 for sport and weddings I know. Not sure when he is using the Fuji.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #413 on: June 18, 2019, 12:29:06 am »

Fuji is APS-C but yes, nice cameras and lenses.

For the kind of paused images wedding pros typically use the 200mm f2.0 for, where critical eye focus is of essence, I find the Z7 superior to the D850/D5.

It’s for action where great approximate focus is the goal that the D850/D5 is still a bit ahead.

But I am sure he knows what works for him.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:36:01 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #414 on: June 18, 2019, 02:14:54 am »

That’s odd because in all the tests I have seen, and I have seen many, the A7Riii is ahead of the Z7 in auto focus and I know that the A9 is miles ahead of the A7Riii. The A9 with its latest firmware upgrade seems at least the equal of the D5 when it comes to tracking and obviously the eye AF puts it ahead in those applications.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #415 on: June 18, 2019, 02:29:35 am »

That’s odd because in all the tests I have seen, and I have seen many, the A7Riii is ahead of the Z7 in auto focus and I know that the A9 is miles ahead of the A7Riii. The A9 with its latest firmware upgrade seems at least the equal of the D5 when it comes to tracking and obviously the eye AF puts it ahead in those applications.

Yes, tracking indeed.

Does  your friend use the 200 f2.0 for tracking running couples? The bride trying to escape? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #416 on: June 18, 2019, 04:57:26 am »

Yes, tracking indeed.

Does  your friend use the 200 f2.0 for tracking running couples? The bride trying to escape? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

The altar is usually the place where they allow the groom to catch them, you just need to point your camera there :)

Edmund
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KLaban

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #417 on: June 18, 2019, 05:24:26 am »

Jeez, 21 pages and counting...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #418 on: June 18, 2019, 05:47:10 am »

The altar is usually the place where they allow the groom to catch them, you just need to point your camera there :)

:D

Cheers,
Bernard

scooby70

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #419 on: June 18, 2019, 06:20:22 am »

Again with the mount discussion.

Does it really matter? Really and honestly and truly?

For aperture didn't Sony state that their theoretical limit is f0.6 something?

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