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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52845 times)

DaveL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #360 on: May 23, 2019, 11:14:41 am »

Thank you Bernard. It has been quite a year. We have been shooting together for 35 years. Used different cameras and had different styles. Never argued about gear. It was a fine friendship. He really liked the new Nikon.

Martin, I'm so sorry for your loss. Cherish your memories.
I recently lost a friend in a similar way. Somehow he thought I knew what I was doing in photography, while he constantly showed me he knew more with his work. Every conversation and  shooting experience was valuable, and I anticipated more. He never returned from an international trip.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #361 on: May 23, 2019, 12:07:22 pm »

Martin, I'm so sorry for your loss. Cherish your memories.
I recently lost a friend in a similar way. Somehow he thought I knew what I was doing in photography, while he constantly showed me he knew more with his work. Every conversation and  shooting experience was valuable, and I anticipated more. He never returned from an international trip.

Thanks Dave. I met Jake when I was 23 and next year I turn 60. We sure did a lot of shooting together and for a while both shot on Canon. We never hassled each other about camera brands. I used Linhof he used a Speed Graphic. I had a Cambo when he had a Sinar. He used Mamiya and I used Bronica. We had big plans to do a documentary project together and that’s why he went mirrorless and bought the Nikon. I was already using Sony. His wife is not well and taking massive strain.

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sarrasani

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #362 on: May 28, 2019, 08:08:16 pm »

better mirrorless?
No doubts, Sigma.
All the best,
sandro
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #363 on: June 04, 2019, 07:14:17 pm »

Just leaving a weeklong shooting trip to California and Utah with my Z7 (the images are on the computer, but I haven't even seen them on the big monitor yet, let alone made prints) - writing on the flight back... My initial impressions are confirmed by this extensive use in a very concentrated period of time (1000 images in 8 days). Nikon has quite the camera here - while I agree with Thom Hogan's impressions that, in most ways, it's what Sony would call a Mark 2.5 or Mark 2.6 (it doesn't quite have the focus system or battery life of a Mark III Sony, and it's a long way from the lens selection unless you count the FTZ adapter), it's notably superior to even a Mark III in a few ways that happen to matter for my particular kind of shooting.

1.) It's really well built and sealed - both Roger Cicala at Lensrentals and Imaging Resource's water test show the Z7 in a class with only a couple other mirrorless cameras (the Fuji X-H1 is similar, with the Olympus E-M1 mk II and presumably the E-M1x even better). Neither Canon nor Sony has this level of ruggedness in their FF mirrorless lineup, although the Panasonic S1 line might be.

2.) I happen to like a couple of the compact zooms. The 24-70 f4 has served me very well, and I just got a 14-30 in time for this trip. The only Sony 24-70 f4 is the older "Zeiss" lens, which doesn't hold a candle to the Nikkor. Sony does have a 24-105 that seems close, although substantially bulkier - and there's, of course, the G-master - if you're willing to carry a substantially larger lens, I've always heard it to be excellent. The 14-30 is a smallish, sharp lens that takes filters and is wider than Sony's closest equivalent, although it doesn't get as wide as the somewhat bulkier and more expensive Sony 12-24.

3.) ISO 64. The sensor in a modern Sony and a modern Nikon are very similar (both A7III vs Z6 and A7rIII vs. Z7), but Nikon lets you get 2/3 of a stop lower in ISO on the Z7, reducing noise still farther.  At ISO 64, noise just isn't there - not that a modern sensor has much at 100 either, but the utterly noiseless, high-DR ISO 64 setting is special.

4.) The Nikon just feels more like a camera to me - it hasa really nice interface, a great grip, etc. Fuji and Nikon, while very different, have gotten the interface to a camera right.

Of course, a Sony A7rIII will track action better (probably even than a Z with the firmware update, although I haven't used the two next to each other). The Sony has a wider selection of lenses, although Nikon is hitting a home run with pretty much every lens they release right now.

As I see the state of the mirrorless industry right now:

Nikon: Their early-generation bodies are excellent, with the Z7 using the incomparable (ISO 64) D850 sensor. They are clearly not quite as refined in some ways as a MK III Sony, but they are a lot closer than a first generation camera might be. The lens lineup isn't where Sonys is, but they are releasing sensible lenses at a good clip. To me, the biggest lack is anything longer than 70 mm - the Z system could really use a small, light 70-300 or similar (how about a 70-300 f4-5.6 PF, Nikon)? Every lens they release is excellent for what it is - they aren't terribly ambitious super-speed designs for the most part, but they are a really nice bunch of sharp, compact lenses.

 If I ran Nikon, I'd keep filling out the lens lineup, working on firmware updates, and maybe making a high-speed A9 competitor (is there enough market for both a Z9 and the D6?)  and/or a video-centric body. The Z7 probably gets iterated with the D850 - every time one receives a sensor advance, the other does as well. The FTZ adapter is a very stable way of extending the lens lineup. They need to decide how to feed people into the Z system - is it an APS-C Z-mount body or bodies (and lenses), a stripped down FF body, one of each?

Nikon deals with their lens mount variations relatively well. Older autofocus lenses introduced in the film era won't autofocus on many newer bodies, and a few very new (AF-P) lenses, all but one of which are inexpensive APS-C lenses likely to stay with the body they were bought with, don't work on older bodies, but those are the only meaningful incompatibilities. There are other incompatibilities, but they only affect cases where either the body or the lens is at least 30 years old - the most prominent is the case where neither body nor lens has a way of controlling aperture (only relevant to some film bodies - all digital bodies have aperture control). Even absurd combinations like an 18-55mm DX kit lens on a $3000+ Z7 using the FTZ adapter generally work (as does a 600mm f4 on a D3000). Of course that $100 DX kit lens on the Z7 is going to vignette like crazy, but it's a wonder that it will take a picture at all, much less with AF and dual VR working.

Sony (FE): Currently the folks to beat in full-frame, but they've been resting on their laurels. The A7rIII is still a great camera, but it's two years old, and uses a sensor two years older than that. The D850/Z7 sensor is a pretty good refinement of the A7rII and III sensor, mainly because of the lower ISO. An A7r IV might well regain the resolution crown while retaining superb performance in other aspects of image quality. Panasonic has set a high bar for any A7s III's video modes, especially with the S1h coming out.

 Sony's lens line is relatively complete - there are a few exotics missing, and some of the early, weaker FE lenses could use updates. Sony could benefit from a tilt/shift lens or two, since the only current option is a third-party adapter and a Canon (or Nikon) lens - Sony body to Kipon, Fotodiox, etc. adapter to Canon lens isn't as reliable as Canon body to Canon adapter to Canon lens (or all Nikon). Oddly, their real need in FE now is bodies, not lenses, and updated lenses rather than expansion of the line.

While Sony doesn't have much in the way of first-party guaranteed adapters like Canon and Nikon do (old Minolta lenses is a far less useful adapter than 30 years of EF, or 60 years of Nikkors) third-party adapters will mount essentially any lens ever produced to a Sony body.

Sony (APS-C): Not much to talk about - we haven't seen a real update in a couple of years, since the a6400 was a very minor update, and the lens situation is terrible, other than FE lenses (why not use an FE body, given the low prices of some older models)? The very capable a6500 is still generally bundled with the 16-50mm powerzoom, which may be the worst interchangeable lens in current production, other than Lensbabies, etc. (despite some other honorable-mention APS-C kit lenses). The old a6000 is extremely inexpensive, and perhaps a worthy mirrorless competitor to the D3500/low-end Rebels, which Fuji really doesn't do - the primarily Asian-market Fuji X-A cameras are hard to find in the US (and Europe?), but every option above that is inferior to a comparably priced Fuji due to lenses and controls. The exception, of course. is as spare bodies for full-frame Sony owners.

Canon (EOS-R): Where are the bodies those gorgeous lenses are supposed to go on? Canon has made some absolutely beautiful (and frightfully heavy/expensive) lenses, and introduced them with bodies that look like they were designed for entirely different lenses. Even the original EOS-R isn't really the right body for a 28-70 f2.0 or an Otus-sized 50mm, and they're laughable on an EOS-RP. The only lenses really made for lower-end bodies are the 24-240 travel zoom and the 35mm (??) macro. The 24-105 is also a decent match for the R, although too expensive for the RP. The next lens out is an 85 mm f1.2 for $2700???

Canon needs at least two more bodies that match the high-end lenses - a very high resolution monster, probably well above 50 MP, and a high-performance pro body (in the 30+ MP range, but with a sensor with excellent dynamic range and AF performance). These need to be seriously weather sealed, highly controllable pro bodies at or above the 5D level. The two current bodies are more in the 6D class, with the RP coming in even below the 6D. Also, an adapted kit lens??  Canon badly needs more  lower-end lenses, including something to kit with the RP.

Canon (EOS-M): A decent lower-end system, with some midrange options. Lack of R to M compatibility in either direction is a little puzzling. Canon now has four currently maintained lens mount variations - EF, EF-S, EF-M and EF-R. Full-frame DSLRs (and some cine cameras) only take EF lenses while APS-C DSLRs (and other cine cameras) take EF and EF-S lenses. The mirrorless systems confuse the situation further, as EOS-R cameras take EF-R lenses natively, and EF with an (excellent) adapter, while EOS-M cameras take EF-M and adapt both EF and EF-S (but have no way to mount an EF-R lens).

Fuji: A very well thought out pair of systems, with excellent lenses in both APS-C and small medium format. They have the best overall APS-C lens line on the market, and quite possibly the best line in any format excluding the decades-old Canon and Nikon FF lines. Their medium format lens line is growing rapidly, and is superb. Their bodies are also among the best to use...

 Their one real problem is that they are dependent on sensor sizes that they are either the highest-end customer for (everybody uses APS-C, but there are very few APS-C cameras priced like an X-T or X-H camera, or with the performance expectations) or one of the few customers for (I suspect that over 80% of 33x44 mm sensors go to Fuji - Hasselblad and Pentax both use a few). If Sony updates all the sensors together, Fuji has nothing to worry about (their sizes actually make a lot of sense), but if they let APS-C stagnate because everyone except Fuji wants cheaper sensors for $400 cameras instead of better ones for $1500 cameras, or if they decide that updating medium format isn't worth it for Fuji's business, they can leave Fuji with stale sensors.

 Right now, the X-T3 sensor is competitive, very close to even a 24 MP full-frame sensor (by many measures, it actually outperforms the Canon 6D sensor despite the size difference). What we've seen of the GFX 100 sensor suggests that it is very, very close to the state of the art - only the Phase One IQ4 150 can beat it, at a huge cost both in money and usability. Fuji's got great sensors right now, but they probably wish they were less at Sony's mercy. One sensor size shared mainly with <$500 cameras (as everyone except Fuji abandons high-end APS-C) and another where they're most of the volume makes things tricky.

Panasonic: They finally released the S camera that makes sense... Their expertise has long been in still/video hybrids, and the S1h looks like the most capable one yet. The S1 and S1r make sense as ecosystem partners for the S1h, but it's the h, and video, that define Panasonic's reason for being. A bigger camera with fewer lenses, expensive lenses and no special capabilities is a tough sell against the A7III and Z6, while the high resolution mode may bring some fans to the S1r, but it's limited enough that many photographers will opt for a more compact A7rIII or Z7 with more lens choices.

Their investment in Micro 43 makes relatively little sense except to support their existing customers. Their most exciting camera is the GH5 and its close relative the GH5S, which are big and expensive for Micro 43, and not all that far off the price of an S1 (especially the GH5S). The G (not GH) series has a hard time making an argument for itself against midrange DSLRs, the X-T30 and X-E3, and even the bottom end of full-frame (D610, EOS-6D, EOS-RP and older model Sonys). A Micro 43 generalist camera (neither video-focused, nor a sports/action camera, nor really tiny) should be cheaper than other generalist cameras with larger sensors.

They also have an issue with video-focused cameras using no less than three lens mounts (the third is the EVA-1, a $6000 6K camera in a more conventional camcorder shape, which uses Canon EF lenses). If the successor to the EVA-1 is L-mount, or has an L-mount version available, that would help.

Olympus: They need to come out with MK III versions of the cameras that make Olympus Olympus - the E-M5 and E-M1. The tiny low-end Pen cameras don't sell much here in the US (they may be Asian-market specials like several low-end Fujis we just don't see). The Pen-F doesn't seem to have gotten much traction against Fuji. On the other hand, there's nothing else with decent weather sealing or close to the speed that is as small and light as an E-M5, and there is nothing with the features of a pro sports camera at anything close to the price or weight of an E-M1.

They really need a new sensor - unfortunately, they don't make those. A 20 MP Exmor RS (stacked) sensor with all the modern tricks would help a lot. With the E-M1 line's focus on performance, a stacked sensor makes a ton of sense here...

The E-M1x was pretty much a diversion - it's really an E-M1 mkII with a grip and some new firmware. A true E-M1 mkIII would feature a new sensor, and it would be closer to the mkII in size and price. It might get some of the firmware from the E-M1x.

Another odd camera Olympus might consider making is a truly Tough mirrorless - something like their Tough compact line, but with interchangeable lenses. Nikon did that with the AW1, but I think Olympus could do a better job... The AW1 was viewfinderless, which is a killer for a camera that is going to be used outdoors almost all the time. The camera I have in mind would be based on either an E-M5 or E-M10, but with oversized controls to be used with gloves on, and sealed enough for snorkeling, shockproof enough for skiing. It would need a modified lens mount that could take either standard Micro 43 lenses (becoming as sealed as the lens - with some of the PRO lenses, that's quite good - although not underwater) or special lenses that maintain the full sealing.

Pentax: Are they going to play in mirrorless at all, or just keep making DSLRs for people with existing Pentax lenses?

Leica:Irrelevantly expensive for most people - I see no sign of real differentiation that would make the price worth it (a SL body and lens can easily run as much as a GFX 100, and it's 24 MP). Even if they come out with a new SL that uses the S1r sensor, how do they differentiate it from the S1r?

Hasselblad: An X1D that uses the GFX 100 sensor could be interesting (although probably too pricey for all but a very few)...










« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 07:17:26 pm by Dan Wells »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #364 on: June 04, 2019, 09:37:33 pm »

Indeed!

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #365 on: June 04, 2019, 11:22:13 pm »

Could you not make a case for the winner is the one making the most sales? It’s a bit like claiming to have the best army with the best equipment but when the dust settles you are speaking another language. Nikon is now number three in the ILC market. That happened after the launch of Canon and Nikon’s mirrorless cameras. Of course we all know that popularity only really counts in a democracy and it’s not an indication of quality even then but what is scary is it does carry economic consequences. Sony is outselling Nikon and Canon combined in mirrorless cameras with a single model if I understand the data correctly. And they sell a lot of different models. I believe this is just in Japan though so perhaps worldwide it is different.

Has Nikon made a camera that satisfies the most needs in the best way at an attractive price point? The market clearly doesn’t seem to think so. The camera market in South Africa is too small to indicate anything relevant so I am not going to even bring up any local anecdotal experiences. I have shot a little with a Z6 and it is a fine camera. I have shot a great deal with Sony apsc and earlier Sony FF and now with the A9 and A7riii. I have never used the new Canon. I had a relatively easy opportunity to switch to Nikon but wasn’t really tempted.

If it’s a war it’s not going well for Nikon. Recall issues and fake battery sales through authorised sellers hasn’t helped confidence. If I was a Nikon fan I wouldn’t even worry about Sony. If the Canon behemoth launches a pro body R, and it might well happen, it will rapidly become a two horse race.

Anyway it’s all my personal opinion and prejudice, but the rest of this thread is of much the same flavour. The sales figures are disturbing facts. I hope to see Nikon do well and that’s not really happening at the moment
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kers

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #366 on: June 05, 2019, 06:55:49 am »

Could you not make a case for the winner is the one making the most sales? ...
Never been interested in camera sales... but in cameras...
I do not eat my hamburger at macDonalds because most people do...
The only economic relevance is that the companies that make the camera have sufficient funds to make what they want to make.
I only need one camera that i need/like.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #367 on: June 05, 2019, 07:22:10 am »

Never been interested in camera sales... but in cameras...
I do not eat my hamburger at macDonalds because most people do...
The only economic relevance is that the companies that make the camera have sufficient funds to make what they want to make.
I only need one camera that i need/like.

That makes economics quite relevant in this case don’t you think?
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kers

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #368 on: June 05, 2019, 07:49:27 am »

That makes economics quite relevant in this case don’t you think?
Let us hope NOT.
An important moment will be the 2020 olympics in Japan. Nikon and Canon will have to show something better than the competition.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #369 on: June 05, 2019, 10:04:32 am »

I believe that the numbers at the moment are not that relevant.

The real question is how and when Canon and Nikon DSLRs users will start to migrate in mass to mirrorless.

The one stat that strikes me is that Nikon is basically selling as many FF mirrorless bodies as Canon although they were selling only half as many DSLRs.

This tells me that the Z is twice more appealing for Nikon DSLRs users than the R is for Canon DSLR users. I believe this to be very significant.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #370 on: June 05, 2019, 10:22:08 am »

I think that is significant Bernard. I also think, we’ll i have heard this from some Canon users, that they anticipate a pro body mirrorless from Canon. Canons history with camera roll outs indicate this to be a very real possibility.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #371 on: June 05, 2019, 06:35:29 pm »

I think Nikon and Sony are both in decent shape - the huge effort Nikon put into the Z system will pay off (see Bernard's most recent post), and Sony has the big lead and (finally) a more or less full and generally good to superb lens line. Canon, Fuji and Panasonic all need to do one specific thing right (or have one thing go right).

I agree with Bernard that Nikon's well positioned when their FF DSLR userbase starts to migrate - the question is how many they've already lost to Sony? Canon needs to add mirrorless bodies, or their DSLR userbase may migrate to Sony (or, gasp, Nikon) instead of to Canon mirrorless. Both have great adapters for their own lenses that are much more stable than any third-party way of putting their lenses on a Sony.

 Nikon just needs to keep releasing excellent Z lenses and an entry-level body (whether it's APS-C or FF at the D610 level) - a D5 type body is a "maybe for now" that they certainly need eventually. The Z6 is a D750-type body, while the Z7 is a D850 - they need a D610 first, than a D5. They also need an APS-C solution that encourages a transition to Z - the easiest way would be a couple of APS-C Z-mount bodies and a few lenses to go with them. The size of the Z mount could allow a huge amount of motion for a highly effective (Olympus-level) IBIS system in APS-C. What about an APS-C video-focused camera with a "built-in gimbal", Nikon?  An incompatible mirrorless mount would put them in the pickle Canon's in with the EOS-M.

Sony needs to iterate the FE bodies (all of which are getting older, although the A7III and A7rIII are still in very decent shape), iterate a few old lenses (most notably the 24-70 f4 "Zeiss" and the 28-70 f3.5-5.6 - two widely owned lenses from the very dawn of FE, neither of which is among the high performers in the system), and figure out what they're doing with APS-C. FE is generally in good shape, while I'd call APS-C a mess.

Do they want to compete with Fuji? If so, they need both bodies and lenses. Offer an attractive step to FE? If that's their goal, they need APS-C bodies that look and work more like the FE bodies - more controls and central finders... Are they just after the very low-end market with APS-C? If so, they need to iterate the execrable pancake zoom, offer better phone connectivity (if not a camera with LTE on its own), and offer some more lenses - cheaper wide-angle? The 10-18 is excellent, but not priced for $399 bodies. Something like a 70-300 would be nice no matter what they're doing, and a decent 18-55 or the like.

Canon's also in good shape if they can get those higher-end bodies out without major image quality hitches. What they can't afford is something like the 5Ds line - a super-resolution body with a couple of stops less dynamic range than the competition.  As the lens line fills out, the gaps for low-end bodies should fill in - although a non-adapted kit lens for the EOS-RP needs to be a priority.

Fuji's in great shape with bodies and lenses, and they're presently doing well on sensors. If they don't get flattened by Sony refusing to give them the sensors they want going forward (high-performance APS-C and modern small medium format), they'll be the last survivor - leaving a stills market of Sony, Canon, Nikon and Fuji, with Panasonic staying in the video world.

Panasonic is moving further and further into videoland, but that's where their advantage is - now let's get all those video cameras down to one mount (maybe two)... Still cameras make sense where they support the core video cameras.

Olympus has the best chance of all remaining players of retaining relevance... They might or might not do it - lenses are in good shape, core cameras are getting old (and are stuck with an old sensor). If they get a sensor that lets them do meaningful upgrades on their core line, and especially if they release one more really innovative camera (I suggested underwater/super-action), they're in good shape to remain a niche player, but in an important niche.

Pentax may well soldier on doing what they're doing for a while - "buy standard Sony sensors and stick them in little-changed bodies" isn't hard to do, and they may even be turning a modest profit from owners of old Pentax lenses. I'd be surprised if they had a real project up their sleeves, like a mirrorless camera and the lenses for it.

Hasselblad and Leica are mostly irrelevant - neither one is going to break into the mainstream, and Leica will probably go ever deeper into the collectibles morass while Hasselblad builds drone cameras and may or may not keep building medium format in any numbers.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #372 on: June 05, 2019, 06:43:40 pm »

One great thing about Fuji is that they are not competing with Sony.

Sony is obviously not that interested in APS-C, their main focus is FF, where Fuji is not playing. This ensures that Sony will keep delivering its very best sensors to Fuji who will soon account for the large majority of both APS-C and small MF sensor sales.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #373 on: June 05, 2019, 08:46:58 pm »

One great thing about Fuji is that they are not competing with Sony.

Sony is obviously not that interested in APS-C, their main focus is FF, where Fuji is not playing. This ensures that Sony will keep delivering its very best sensors to Fuji who will soon account for the large majority of both APS-C and small MF sensor sales.

Cheers,
Bernard

How big of market share do you think Fuji has? In 2018 the top 3 camera manufactures ( Canon, Nikon and Sony ) held an 87.3% of the ICL market, up 6.2% from the previous year. The remaining share ( 12.7% ) is split between Fuji, Olympus, Richo, Leica, Panasonic etc...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #374 on: June 05, 2019, 09:19:56 pm »

How big of market share do you think Fuji has? In 2018 the top 3 camera manufactures ( Canon, Nikon and Sony ) held an 87.3% of the ICL market, up 6.2% from the previous year. The remaining share ( 12.7% ) is split between Fuji, Olympus, Richo, Leica, Panasonic etc...

The market share of Fuji is not large, but among cameras using Sony APS-C sensors, I see it increasing significantly moving forward.

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #375 on: June 05, 2019, 09:31:51 pm »

The market share of Fuji is not large, but among cameras using Sony APS-C sensors, I see it increasing significantly moving forward.

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well Fuji has a hill to climb. If you look at Amazon camera sales, the first Fuji in the list is at the 41st position whereas there are at least 10 Sony Aps-c camera kits selling at higher numbers. I would think even though Sony has not made much effort on its aps-c line, it still outsells Fuji by a wide margin. Fuji just better hope Sony continues its luke warm approach to the aps-c line.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #376 on: June 06, 2019, 01:10:04 am »

Well Fuji has a hill to climb. If you look at Amazon camera sales, the first Fuji in the list is at the 41st position whereas there are at least 10 Sony Aps-c camera kits selling at higher numbers. I would think even though Sony has not made much effort on its aps-c line, it still outsells Fuji by a wide margin. Fuji just better hope Sony continues its luke warm approach to the aps-c line.

I think we are far too quick to work out what we would do, believe hat to be totally logical and then extend that to everyone else and predict a trend.

I owned two Fuji cameras. I loved the way they looked and was sure we would become close friends. I hated them both and got rid of them. Loved the Sony APSC cameras and ended up owning three over the years, sold them because of two many cameras and systems and lenses. So it goes.

Anyone looking for a second hand Z7 I can put you in contact with a local guy, very honest and ethical, who buys and sells second hand gear. He is flooded with people trying to get rid of them, local stores not even taking them as trade ins any longer. A few people are trying to buy back there 850s they sold to buy the Z7. I have no idea why this is happening, I haven’t bothered to ask. The local high end camera market is totally dominated by people with fantasies of becoming the next top wildlife photographer. It’s a local obsession that I have never understood. I mean how many images of lions at sunset can you actually look at before falling asleep? Perhaps the Z7 doesn’t work for these people. Who knows.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #377 on: June 06, 2019, 01:50:43 am »

The Z7 would be a lousy wildlife camera - the longest truly native lens is a 70mm and the AF isn't as fast as a D850. The body weight difference is trivial compared to the lens you'd need (unless you're using a 300mm PF). It's a pretty special landscape camera when paired with its sharp, compact native lenses, but wildlife isn't its strong suit. Maybe with native PF lenses? Even then, if you're shooting from a vehicle with a jumbo lens, why not a D850... I just looked up where Martin's from (South Africa), and I'd imagine that's probably a weird market with a lot of emphasis on wildlife photography, largely from vehicles.

How many of those Sony APS-C kits are much cheaper than the cheapest Fuji? The one thing Sony is doing in APS-C is producing the only mirrorless that is close to as cheap as a D3500 or the lowest-end Rebels.

My suspicion is that Fuji has around 6-7% of the market - Olympus is known to be around 3% (Thom Hogan reports about 340,000 per year in a market around 11 million), some of the Panasonics probably get counted as video cameras, and Pentax/Ricoh plus the extreme high end (Leica/'Blad/Phase) are trivial. Many of the market statistics don't even count the high-end trio, because they're counting the market for cameras sold by Japanese companies - since all the major players are Japanese, it's not an issue unless you're trying to figure out the share of the small players. Even if some Panasonics don't go missing as video cameras, they could be the same size as Olympus, Pentax is the 0.7% (about 80,000 cameras), and the Europeans don't show up - still leaving Fuji with ~6% and well over half a million cameras and growing.

My concern for Fuji is that Sony themselves and Nikon both buy far more APS-C sensors than Fuji does (Canon does too, but they make their own - at least so far), but they mainly want them for $400 cameras. Fuji wants sensors for $1000-$1500 cameras, and maybe even for a video-centric model well above that.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #378 on: June 06, 2019, 02:56:49 am »

You are on the money Dan. Wildlife photography the main thing here. Also lots of Landscape but it seems to be secondary. You can very easily do landscape with an 850 but wildlife with a Z7 a bit limited at the moment. The pros haven’t made the switch to the Z7 for obvious reasons. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #379 on: June 06, 2019, 10:02:29 am »

I wouldn’t use a Z7 for wildlife either.

Not sure I would use my D850 either. More a D5 or a D500 in fact.

The D5 with the 500mm f5.6 PF is a super sweet combo.

Cheers,
Bernard
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