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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 12186 times)

davidgp

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #320 on: February 04, 2019, 10:24:06 am »

Well, looks like Canon wants to catch up with Sony lens roadmap as soon as possible, they plan to announce 5 lenses and a new camera next week: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/first-leaked-images-of-the-five-new-canon-rf-lenses/

Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #321 on: February 04, 2019, 01:21:54 pm »

Canon seems to employing the inverse of Sony's early strategy... A new, inexpensive body and five new lenses (all but one big pro lenses) just leaked.  Sony released all sorts of great bodies, then took years to get a decent line of lenses worthy of the bodies out there (they now have in FE, but still not in APS-C). Canon seems to be releasing every fast (but also big, heavy, expensive)pro lens they can think of - what are they missing now with the five new releases that just leaked? Some wide primes seem like the biggest gap (other than a camera to go with them...) - the exotic teles are just fine on an adapter...

On the other hand, their bodies don't match the lenses - the EOS-R is somewhere between the 5D and 6D lines, while the new camera seems likely to fit even below the 6D line? Of these five lenses, the 24-240 travel zoom seems to be a fit for the new camera and perhaps the EOS-R, while the other four are waiting for their body...

Best fit for $1599 body (EOS-RP?):
24-240mm
35mm macro (if it can really be said to fit ANY body - a macro that short on full frame is very questionable.)

Best fit for EOS-R:
24-105mm f4

Best fit for ???? (unreleased pro body):
28-70 f2
24-70 f2.8
15-35 f2.8
70-200 f2.8
50 f1.2
85 f1.2


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Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #322 on: February 04, 2019, 03:39:59 pm »

In what way do the new Canon lenses not fit the current R body (and the rumored upcoming models)?

You can mount them on the camera and use them, can't you? Or do I need to have a $4000 "pro" body before I dare to use a f1.2 L prime with it? This specs snobbery is silly.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #323 on: February 04, 2019, 09:47:14 pm »

There are certainly usage patterns where people would want to mount a 800mm f5.6 on a consumer rebel, but youíll probably agree that most photographers mount them on more pro specced bodies.

The reason lies in the usage patterns.

Other aspects include:
- physical balance impacted by body/lens
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

kbolin

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #324 on: February 04, 2019, 10:34:47 pm »

After almost 30 years of shooting Canon I made the switch.  It really doesn't matter what brand I switched to but rather why I moved away from Canon.  The last time I got excited by anything Canon did was when they released their 200-400 f/4 w/1.4TC built in.  That's it, there hasn't been any lens, body, or anything that they have released that has excited me to the point where I was giddy! 

Not to say that others haven't been excited, for me I haven't.  I switched and now I'm having a ton of fun with my new system and look forward to more as new features, bodies & lenses are released.  I feel like a giddy teenager again!

... K
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #325 on: February 04, 2019, 10:39:14 pm »

I'd also think that you might well want either more sensor performance (resolution/dynamic range), more speed, more durability, IBIS, or some combination in a body you were going to mount $2000+ lenses on. I'd imagine most big white Canon telephotos, f2.8 zooms and f1.2 or f1.4 primes end up on 5D or 1D series bodies?

There's nothing physically wrong with mounting those lenses on the EOS-R (there is an actual issue with combos like an 800mm on a Rebel, because the lens mount wasn't designed for big lenses) - but, if you're going to spend the money on several of those lenses, is the EOS-R the body you want, let alone the EOS-RP?
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Christopher

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #326 on: February 05, 2019, 02:02:16 am »

It will be really interesting to see how large the new 70-200 will be. Till now it was mainly said there is no real benefit with the new mounts for longer lenses.

The new 70-200 looks compact, which means itís could extend, is very wide or a distorted image.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #327 on: February 05, 2019, 05:27:16 am »

Hi,

Just a small note, if I want short DoF, I would buy a 85/1.4 or a 135/2.0 lens.

For other tasks, having 1EV better ISO capability like usable ISO being 1600 instead of 800 compensates for the lower speed.

  • I would say that using a sharper lens always makes sense.
  • But using a faster camera with a lower lens may also make sense.

If the camera has built in image stabilization, it tilts the playing ground even more, albeit it doesn't stop action.

Personally, I would like to see more high quality moderate aperture lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Canon seems to employing the inverse of Sony's early strategy... A new, inexpensive body and five new lenses (all but one big pro lenses) just leaked.  Sony released all sorts of great bodies, then took years to get a decent line of lenses worthy of the bodies out there (they now have in FE, but still not in APS-C). Canon seems to be releasing every fast (but also big, heavy, expensive)pro lens they can think of - what are they missing now with the five new releases that just leaked? Some wide primes seem like the biggest gap (other than a camera to go with them...) - the exotic teles are just fine on an adapter...

On the other hand, their bodies don't match the lenses - the EOS-R is somewhere between the 5D and 6D lines, while the new camera seems likely to fit even below the 6D line? Of these five lenses, the 24-240 travel zoom seems to be a fit for the new camera and perhaps the EOS-R, while the other four are waiting for their body...

Best fit for $1599 body (EOS-RP?):
24-240mm
35mm macro (if it can really be said to fit ANY body - a macro that short on full frame is very questionable.)

Best fit for EOS-R:
24-105mm f4

Best fit for ???? (unreleased pro body):
28-70 f2
24-70 f2.8
15-35 f2.8
70-200 f2.8
50 f1.2
85 f1.2
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #328 on: February 05, 2019, 07:55:11 am »

There's nothing physically wrong with mounting those lenses on the EOS-R (there is an actual issue with combos like an 800mm on a Rebel, because the lens mount wasn't designed for big lenses) - but, if you're going to spend the money on several of those lenses, is the EOS-R the body you want, let alone the EOS-RP?
Yes the EOS R is almost perfect for me*. I'm a portrait shooter so I don't need action/speed features associated with pro bodies and I definitely don't want more resolution (I've retouched 50mpx images and it's a pain in the ass. Very few people need or want so much skin detail and I'm not one of them). It's also a question of budget - unlike some people I'm not made of money and I've been always prioritizing spending on lenses over bodies. If the RP is full frame and focuses as well as R does, I would probably be pretty happy with it and the fast primes/zoom.

*I've shot the R for about 2 months now and the only thing that really annoys me is the slow data transfer when tethered over usb (compared to DSLRs)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 08:03:57 am by Rado »
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Lightsmith

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #329 on: March 24, 2019, 05:35:13 pm »

Still at the top is the Sony lineup. Nikon has a number of issues with the X camera system to provide an equivalent level of functionality for still and video shooting. Canon is a mystery as although they are very slow to respond to the market (as when it took a full 3 years to provide the 1D X as a response to the Nikon D3), they are usually more adept than is evidenced by their mirrorless offering.

I have to think that Canon was more worried about cannibalizing their camcorder product lines than in providing an alternative to the Sony mirrorless cameras.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #330 on: March 24, 2019, 06:28:47 pm »

Still at the top is the Sony lineup. Nikon has a number of issues with the X camera system to provide an equivalent level of functionality for still and video shooting. Canon is a mystery as although they are very slow to respond to the market (as when it took a full 3 years to provide the 1D X as a response to the Nikon D3), they are usually more adept than is evidenced by their mirrorless offering.

I have to think that Canon was more worried about cannibalizing their camcorder product lines than in providing an alternative to the Sony mirrorless cameras.

As far as video goes, I have a hard time finding any aspect where the Z6 isnít superior to the Sonys.

What did you have in mind?

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #331 on: April 03, 2019, 10:38:17 pm »

Interestingly, we just had the dynamic range results from the S1R on Photonstophotos...

So much like a Z7 that it looks like it could be a Z7 (within where I'd think measurement error is at pretty much every ISO).

Nothing at all like a Q2, which is consistently a stop or so below the Z7/S1R twins (really the Z7/S1R/A7RIII triplets).
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scooby70

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #332 on: April 04, 2019, 08:35:03 am »

As far as video goes, I have a hard time finding any aspect where the Z6 isnít superior to the Sonys.

What did you have in mind?

Cheers,
Bernard

I've read in one review that the Nikons output looks over sharpened. Is this true?

https://www.diyphotography.net/the-nikon-z6-goes-head-to-head-with-the-sony-a7iii-with-some-surprising-results/
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JV

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #333 on: April 06, 2019, 11:40:58 pm »

Interesting discussion.

I bought a Canon EOS R recently.  I have no history with Canon.  It is the first Canon camera that I have ever bought.

When the EOS R was released last year it got thrashed by a lot of people for a number of well known reasons (no IBIS, 4K crop, one card slot, etc).

But when you read between the lines the same 2 things consistently were mentioned: 1) the glass is stunning 2) the ergonomics are excellent.

That made me try it out and so far I really like it a lot.  And that 50mm f1.2 is indeed beautiful.  The question whether Canon is better than Nikon (or any other brand) quite honestly never entered my mind...

Canon took the number one spot in Japan last year:
https://www.43rumors.com/mirrorless-market-share-2018-olympus-now-on-second-place-in-japan/

If they as announced deliver 6 more lenses this year and if they are of the same high quality the rest of the world will IMHO follow quickly. 

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2019, 03:32:00 am »

Canon got number #1 in Japan in mirrorless thanks mostly to huge discounts on the M...

You are the first person I hear of who bought an R without prior investment in Canon. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

D Fuller

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2019, 09:56:08 am »

I've read in one review that the Nikons output looks over sharpened. Is this true?

https://www.diyphotography.net/the-nikon-z6-goes-head-to-head-with-the-sony-a7iii-with-some-surprising-results/

Nope. This is another useless internet review. Thereís nothing in the review that tells you how the cameras were set up, and with out that information, itís just clickbait.

Each profile in both cameras has different settings for sharpening, noise reduction, saturation, black level and gamma curve. Any video shooter worth the name would check those things prior to shooting and adjust to serve her/his workflow. And to be sure, each of those settings are adjustable.

I can only assume that the reviewer in this case really knows nothing about video or about testing cameras.

(The review also discovers that the two cameras metering systems are a stop apart, yet continues to compare the 1-stop different exposures for noise and DR as if they were the same.)

I own a Z7, a Z6, an a7r3, and recently sold an a7s. I can tell you that the video output is very similar when set up similarly. The internal video from all the Nikonís and Sonyís Iíd 8-bit 4:2:0, so it has very little latitude for color or exposure correction. Externally, in 8-bit, both output 4:2:2, so more color grading is possible. The Nikon records 10-bit 4:2:2 externally, which is an order of magnitude better for grading than the Sonys, even given that Nikon hasnít provided an N-log LUT.
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JV

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2019, 07:06:17 pm »

You are the first person I hear of who bought an R without prior investment in Canon. :)

I don't believe I am the only one though, and I certainly won't be the last one.  From a review on B&H:

One of the finest lenses that I have ever held in my hand. It is exciting to think that this is the future. I am not a Canon devotee. I shoot Nikon, Olympus, and previously Sony. I purchased the EOS R so that I could try the Canon RF lenses and I think that they are spectacular.

The glass will sell the bodies.  Canon is on the right track IMO which obviously does not mean that the others aren't...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #337 on: April 07, 2019, 07:38:43 pm »

The R 50mm f1.2 certainly seems to he a sweet lens combining the great look of the EOS lens with modern performance.

Weíll have to see to what extend the more compact design has compromised performance compared to the upcoming Z 50mm f1.2.

I still donít get the value of a 28-70 f2.0 in 2019. I find a 24-70 f2.8 an order of magnitude more useful for the situations when you typically use such a zoom lens. Itís a nice design statement that very few photographers with financial concerns will buy and those gas ridden buyers wonít use much.

Youíve got to wonder whether Canon hasnít released this very niche lens early mostly to get favorable reviews from the many online reviewers who get funded thanks to affiliated links purchases and therefore are strongly incentivized to push readers towards expensive items (Diglloyd comes to mind).

A 24-70 f2.0 would a great option though but we already know that Canon wonít the company releasing one. I donít believe that the Sony mount would make such a lens feasible with decent corner image quality, which leaves Nikon and Sigma/Pana/Leica as the only candidates. My bet is on Sigma.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 01:22:23 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #338 on: April 07, 2019, 10:11:45 pm »

@JV I do expect that sensors are approaching fundamental limits, so that differences between brands at a given sensor size will become ever less significant in practice (even if it is 16 vs 17 stops of engineering DR, or some other marginally significant lab measurement). And then we will be back to lenses as the main point of IQ competition.

But I do not see one good fast 50mm prime being a big market driver overall! Any guesses what fraction of 35mm format users have or particularly want a fast 50 these days?
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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #339 on: April 08, 2019, 07:44:39 am »

But I do not see one good fast 50mm prime being a big market driver overall! Any guesses what fraction of 35mm format users have or particularly want a fast 50 these days?
Particularly when it is a behemoth.
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