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Author Topic: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?  (Read 1764 times)

elliot_n

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 02:11:12 PM »

Perhaps not, but it's very handy if your computer breaks down.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 02:19:11 PM »

There's no logic in that assertion.

Jeremy
It's also damn hard to do! Say you're working on raws that are not DNG. Say you're using custom DNG profiles. Where do said profiles reside and have to reside based on how Adobe handles this stuff? On the boot drive (on Mac, deep in an Application Support folder in the user library). There are probably other similar examples of such necessary data and not Adobe based.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 04:28:25 PM »

There's no logic in that assertion.

Jeremy
There is a tremendous amount of logic to this.  I don't know how MacOS systems handle things and I build my own PC workstations running WinOS.  I have the OS and programs on a fast SSD and images and other documents on a separate regular hard drive.  I also have a separate SSD that PS can use as a scratch disk.  This kind of set up would not be possible if I just had a single large drive that contained the OS, programs and all the data files.  It's easy to mirror that data drive both to the cloud, a separate data drive in my PC and a detachable HD so that there are redundant back ups.  LR can be configured to store everything that is needed (at least things that I need, YMMV) on the data storage drives.  Andrew mentioned DNGs in a later post.  I don't use DNGs so I cannot comment about how these are used in terms of where LR is located and the data drive.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 04:32:12 PM »

There is a tremendous amount of logic to this.  I don't know how MacOS systems handle things and I build my own PC workstations running WinOS.  I have the OS and programs on a fast SSD and images and other documents on a separate regular hard drive.  I also have a separate SSD that PS can use as a scratch disk.  This kind of set up would not be possible if I just had a single large drive that contained the OS, programs and all the data files.  It's easy to mirror that data drive both to the cloud, a separate data drive in my PC and a detachable HD so that there are redundant back ups.  LR can be configured to store everything that is needed (at least things that I need, YMMV) on the data storage drives.  Andrew mentioned DNGs in a later post.  I don't use DNGs so I cannot comment about how these are used in terms of where LR is located and the data drive.
I mention DNG because that format allows for data to be embedded that would otherwise be found on the boot drive.
Where for example, on your Windows machine do .DCP profiles reside? IF on the boot disk and if you're not using say DNG, say you select a profile, either one supplied by Adobe or your own. Now that profile, which is 'linked' to the raw is on your boot drive so with your recommendations, that useful and necessary data isn't on that dedicated drive.
And getting back on topic about where this database file lives and whether or not it stores all the necessary edits (still very questionable), seems Elements 2018 is NOW old news and everything could possibility differ due to this:
https://theblog.adobe.com/introducing-adobe-photoshop-elements-2019-premiere-elements-2019/
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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 05:05:01 PM »

Where for example, on your Windows machine do .DCP profiles reside?
On the system drive, also custom or downloaded additional lens profiles hide there too.

It would be easy enough, and maybe good practice, to have a separate folder on the drive you keep images and LR data on to keep copies of these files that can't be configured to be automatically at specific locations. It just needs some understanding, consideration and planning.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2018, 05:58:39 PM »

On the system drive, also custom or downloaded additional lens profiles hide there too.

It would be easy enough, and maybe good practice, to have a separate folder on the drive you keep images and LR data on to keep copies of these files that can't be configured to be automatically at specific locations. It just needs some understanding, consideration and planning.
Yes, on the system (Boot) drive. By design. And why would they need to be anywhere else?
So yeah, keeping all this stuff off the boot drive isn’t as easy as it sounds. Nor does Adobe and lots and lots of others make it easy to do or apparently do they feel as you do, it’s necessary. And for myself and many others excluding the OP, everything everywhere gets backed up, returning full circle to this silly idea of finding one obscure file we still don’t know which Elements uses for the edits.
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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2018, 06:22:19 PM »

And for myself and many others excluding the OP, everything everywhere gets backed up,
That's just one approach.
You'll also find a school of thought that says you should have your own personal data backed up and archived separately; docs, spreadsheets, photos, databases, saved settings, macros etc.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2018, 06:28:39 PM »

That's just one approach.
You'll also find a school of thought that says you should have your own personal data backed up and archived separately; docs, spreadsheets, photos, databases, saved settings, macros etc.
Yes that’s just one approach. An approach that ensures no data is ever lost.  ;)
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Andrew Rodney
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2018, 10:37:41 PM »

I think the user should have the option to decide where to store the data. The issue with ACR database is not only with Elements, it is the same if you use ACR + PS.

Storing data in the boot drive is the single-user, single-computer mindset that unfortunately is present across many software vendors. It prevents multi-user environment and complicates collaboration and migration between different platforms. If you think this can’t be done just look at Davinci Resolve which allows multiuser environments using a powerful database such as Postgres.

I personally don’t like the fact that Windows basically forces you to have the users profiles in the same boot drive. I much prefer an approach like Unix, where the logical structure of data and folders can be independent of the phisical devices (disks).

digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2018, 11:07:40 PM »

I think the user should have the option to decide where to store the data. The issue with ACR database is not only with Elements, it is the same if you use ACR + PS.

Storing data in the boot drive is the single-user, single-computer mindset that unfortunately is present across many software vendors. It prevents multi-user environment and complicates collaboration and migration between different platforms. If you think this can’t be done just look at Davinci Resolve which allows multiuser environments using a powerful database such as Postgres.

I personally don’t like the fact that Windows basically forces you to have the users profiles in the same boot drive. I much prefer an approach like Unix, where the logical structure of data and folders can be independent of the phisical devices (disks).
I don’t know what “the issue” is and Adobe isn’t unique in placing necessary files all over the boot disk. At least under Mac OS. Can’t speak about Windows. Everything on the boot disk or there and on multiple external drives, 30 years of running a Mac but backing up EVERYTHING, no issues on this end.
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Andrew Rodney
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2018, 11:21:47 PM »

Yes, it can work perfectly fine, but just think about this scenario:

You start with a Windows computer and chose to store ACR edits in the ACR database. Then, after a few years and thousands of edited images, you decide to migrate to Mac ... I wish you luck!

Doug Gray

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2018, 11:59:15 PM »

You can create a link (if using NTFS which is the normal Windows default)  from a directory in C: to another drive. See this:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/FileIO/hard-links-and-junctions

This is commonly done when people need more storage than is in C: or just want to separate user files from the C: drive.

It's somewhat similar to node links in Unix and Linux OSes.
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2018, 12:28:03 AM »

You can create a link (if using NTFS which is the normal Windows default)  from a directory in C

Yes, that is one approach, but I see it more like a workaround. Also bear in mind that some backup programs (i.e. crashplan) don't include the liked data by default

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2018, 08:04:50 AM »

That's just one approach.
You'll also find a school of thought that says you should have your own personal data backed up and archived separately; docs, spreadsheets, photos, databases, saved settings, macros etc.
This is the approach that I follow and I have my back up program set up to get all the stuff that is "hidden" by Adobe (as well as other software vendors).  Personally, I think it's bad practice by software vendors to embed important files by default in locations that are difficult for "most" users to find.  Clearly doing system images of the OS drive help address this issue in case of OS drive failure but things could be made a lot easier.

I'm not quibbling with what Andrew has stated in his posts above but only note that sophisticated uses understand where things are and can take the necessary efforts to prevent major problems down the road.  Fortunately, most data drives these days are not only fast but quite robust.  Drive failures are quite rare.
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2018, 08:31:51 AM »

Drive failures are quite rare.

Not my experience, although they have improved a lot

digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2018, 09:15:28 AM »

Yes, it can work perfectly fine, but just think about this scenario:

You start with a Windows computer and chose to store ACR edits in the ACR database. Then, after a few years and thousands of edited images, you decide to migrate to Mac ... I wish you luck!
I would not recommend storing ACR edits that way for one as have multiple people on (now) THREE different forums th OP has duplicated this original topic (one locked as is often the case), again going back on topic. My ACR edits reside IN the raws. But I see your point. And I wish Adobe and others would arrange all files be location configurable. For example in LR: the preference to store all presets with Catalog. Great! But Lens and Camera Profiles? Nope. In that example, DNG is one partial solution.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2018, 01:36:24 PM »

Yes, it can work perfectly fine, but just think about this scenario:

You start with a Windows computer and chose to store ACR edits in the ACR database. Then, after a few years and thousands of edited images, you decide to migrate to Mac ... I wish you luck!
That scenario raises an interesting question. I know of no way to 'export' the edits in the ACR database as sidecar files. Don't know if it's possible. But I suppose (and might or might not be worth testing) that if you converted all those raws into DNGs, the associated edits and more would then be transferred and embedded into the DNGs which would be a better outcome than not. Sure, you're now 'locked' into DNG but that seems a lesser of two evils or for those of us that prefer a DNG workflow, maybe a plus.
Totally avoiding the ACR database and using sidecar files would appear in your scenario to be a much better option. Which is why the request here to back up just the database is iffy at best.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2018, 07:29:21 AM »

That scenario raises an interesting question. I know of no way to 'export' the edits in the ACR database as sidecar files. Don't know if it's possible. But I suppose (and might or might not be worth testing) that if you converted all those raws into DNGs, the associated edits and more would then be transferred and embedded into the DNGs which would be a better outcome than not. Sure, you're now 'locked' into DNG but that seems a lesser of two evils or for those of us that prefer a DNG workflow, maybe a plus.
Totally avoiding the ACR database and using sidecar files would appear in your scenario to be a much better option. Which is why the request here to back up just the database is iffy at best.
Isn't this one of the big advantages of LR?  I just took a look at my image folder and the xmp files are right there in the same place as the RAW files (as they should be :)).  So other than the few things you already identified as residing on the OS drive, the key things are all neatly in one place on my data drive and easy to back up.
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Doug Gray

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2018, 10:44:44 AM »

Isn't this one of the big advantages of LR?  I just took a look at my image folder and the xmp files are right there in the same place as the RAW files (as they should be :)).  So other than the few things you already identified as residing on the OS drive, the key things are all neatly in one place on my data drive and easy to back up.
My main image editor is Photoshop and it also saves the XMP metadata alongside the RAW images. The approach seems uncomplicated.
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nirpat89

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Re: How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2018, 11:01:46 AM »

My main image editor is Photoshop and it also saves the XMP metadata alongside the RAW images. The approach seems uncomplicated.

+1.

I know most photographers have moved to LR.  But I see no reason so far to move away from Bridge+CameraRaw+Photoshop combo.  May be this (old) dog does not want to learn a new trick.  Particularly since they added the CameraRaw filter in PS so you can go back and forth between the two.  To each his/her own, I guess.  Adobe should give me discount for not using LR (yeah, right!)
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