What should I learn in Photoshop first?

[Ivophoto]

Absolutely disagree.

We are not talking, for example, about math formulas helpful to calculate the square footage of a home we are trying to buy or sell, or any other helpful math skills. We are talking about math that is elegance, that is poetry, that is creativity.

You do not believe math can be elegant and poetic? I participated in my youth in regional math competitions at the level that is not going to ask you what is the square root of 9, for instance, but were presenting math problems in such a way that required elegance and creativity (i.e., finding the quickest and simplest solution). Sometimes, the solutions are so elegant that it amounts to sheer poetry. Those who do or did programming (e.g., Russ) should concur about elegance, I hope.

Once you get a sense what that is (elegance) in school, it stays in your subconscious and surfaces with no particular effort when you start photographing.

We are close to Kabbalah, I have the impression.

Years ago we installed a new generation of robots in a VW factory. One of our robot programmers got lyrical over the sensual movement he taught the robot.
He showed of to a German engineer who smiled and deleted the code and took over the teaching console. In a fraction of points he reprogrammed the robot and tack welded the chassis in 35 instead of 75 seconds.
Our engineer was lyrical about the sensuality of the movement, the German engineer was lyrical about the short ‘taktzeit’
The ‘strassefuhrer’ was in favor of the short routine, not the elegant one. In fact, he found the ‘elegant’ code bloated en not serving purpose.

[Rob C]

Absolutely disagree.

We are not talking, for example, about math formulas helpful to calculate the square footage of a home we are trying to buy or sell, or any other helpful math skills. We are talking about math that is elegance, that is poetry, that is creativity.

You do not believe math can be elegant and poetic? I participated in my youth in regional math competitions at the level that is not going to ask you what is the square root of 9, for instance, but were presenting math problems in such a way that required elegance and creativity (i.e., finding the quickest and simplest solution). Sometimes, the solutions are so elegant that it amounts to sheer poetry. Those who do or did programming (e.g., Russ) should concur about elegance, I hope.

Once you get a sense what that is (elegance) in school, it stays in your subconscious and surfaces with no particular effort when you start photographing.

Those are but red herrings or, worse, non sequiturs. I have no problem accepting that some minds find beauty in the sense of order or even, perhaps, of logic in maths; but photography is about visual beauty, divorced from maths. Were that not true, I would be incapable of making a reasonably good photograph for I not only dislike maths, fear involvement (just as with electronics) but hate having anything to do with it. There used to be a form of maths in the 50s called "identities" which may have some even more obscure nomenclature today, but briefly, and for example, it consisted of this kind of problem: express sine squared a in terms of... My wife loved that - she also galloped through the Glasgow Herald crossword in five minutes, whereas I couldn't cope with either. She never wrote an essay after leaving school; her grammar and spelling were perfect, but that's where her mind ended where language was concerned.

Equally, doesn't it occur to anyone that though architects are obliged to be happy with maths, that "beauty" certainly does not always translate into, or live beside, great design imagination and ability to express beauty in that dimension of beauty. Were it not so, why would crazy guys like Gaudi be famous? In a world of architectural mathematicians they would all be equally capable of expressing art and not only the science of construction. Maths is a fairly definite science, whereas art can be pretty much anything that looks good.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... The ‘strassefuhrer’ was in favor of the short routine, not the elegant one. In fact, he found the ‘elegant’ code bloated en not serving purpose.

Then you misunderstood the term “elegant” the way I described it. Not “ballet elegant” but elegant in its simplicity and creative solution. Thus a code that is “bloated and not serving purpose” can never be described as elegant.

[JoeKitchen]

We are close to Kabbalah, I have the impression.

Years ago we installed a new generation of robots in a VW factory. One of our robot programmers got lyrical over the sensual movement he taught the robot.
He showed of to a German engineer who smiled and deleted the code and took over the teaching console. In a fraction of points he reprogrammed the robot and tack welded the chassis in 35 instead of 75 seconds.
Our engineer was lyrical about the sensuality of the movement, the German engineer was lyrical about the short ‘taktzeit’
The ‘strassefuhrer’ was in favor of the short routine, not the elegant one. In fact, he found the ‘elegant’ code bloated en not serving purpose.

This story shows your lack of any understanding of mathematics, not because you feel that the dancing robot was "elegant" but because you don't realize it was in fact not.  Producing a solution that has erroneous and unneeded parts is not elegant, it's sloppy. 

Elegant to a mathematician is finding the simplest solution that the greatest number of people could understand. 

Case in point, I was once presented with a problem, prove or disprove: if you draw five points on a sphere, it is always possible to cut the sphere in half into two closed hemispheres such that at least 4 points are on the same half.  This is true and we spent hours coming up with a proof that was at least a page long.  Not that that was wrong, but our professor shared with us the next day a three sentence proof you could explain to a grade schooler.  That's elegant. 

[Ivophoto]

Then you misunderstood the term “elegant” the way I described it. Not “ballet elegant” but elegant in its simplicity and creative solution. Thus a code that is “bloated and not serving purpose” can never be described as elegant.

I should have used brackets around the word elegant in my reply. My fault you didn’t catch the nuance in my reply.

That’s where the German engineers beauty comes into my story, Slobodan. I know what you mean.

The code of my collègue made the robot almost dancing. The German code was effective in his simplicity.

Now, that’s why I put the two together.

Elegance of a poem or music, dance, and elegance in math or coding are from another nature.

It’s like a romantic performance of the Matheus passion against a true to form performance. Make your choice.

So is photography.

[Ivophoto]

This story shows your lack of any understanding of mathematics, not because you feel that the dancing robot was "elegant" but because you don't realize it was in fact not.  Producing a solution that has erroneous and unneeded parts is not elegant, it's sloppy. 

Elegant to a mathematician is finding the simplest solution that the greatest number of people could understand. 

Case in point, I was once presented with a problem, prove or disprove: if you draw five points on a sphere, it is always possible to cut the sphere in half into two close hemispheres such that at least 4 points are on the same half.  This is true and we spent hours coming up with a proof that was at least a page long.  Not that that was wrong, but our professor shared with us the next day a three sentence proof you could explain to a grade schooler.  That's elegant.

Again this typical underestimation.

See my explanation to Slobodan above.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... photography is about visual beauty, divorced from maths. Were that not true, I would be incapable of making a reasonably good photograph for I not only dislike maths, fear involvement (just as with electronics) but hate having anything to do with it...

Rob, when you shoot boobs, the only math you need is the ability to count to two 

[Ivophoto]

Rob, when you shoot boobs, the only math you need is the ability to count to two 

On some photo site you can see the number of views of a posted picture. The boob pictures are always in thousands of clicks. The mathematical beauties not above 5.

[petermfiore]

Rob, when you shoot boobs, the only math you need is the ability to count to two 

If one needs to do a count, obviously too much time was spent in school.

Peter

[Rob C]

Rob, when you shoot boobs, the only math you need is the ability to count to two 

Slobodan, I can't remember that far back.

However, it underlines the simplicity of art: no need for maths at all; just for appreciation of the finer, well, points in life and God's design genius. Two hands, two delightful destinations: mathematics and art, the noble exception of art and maths as bedmates.

In fact, when you consider the entire decimal system you realise again that God got it right: just enough numbers to be accurate counting on the fingers! See? Duodecimals were an abortion brought about by the stupidity of the foot and the inch, the penny and the shilling. It probably explains why the more aristocratic, Brexiteering politicians have this regressive, atavistic urge to bring back the old world: somehow, the old currency made the Brits a little more advanced... as if. You just need to catch the accents to get the photo. John Bull must be back at home enjoying his whisky and soda. Quite why the guy down the boozer also bought into their crap is anybody's guess.

:-)

[JoeKitchen]

Slobodan, I can't remember that far back.

However, it underlines the simplicity of art: no need for maths at all; just for appreciation of the finer, well, points in life and God's design genius. Two hands, two delightful destinations: mathematics and art, the noble exception of art and maths as bedmates.

In fact, when you consider the entire decimal system you realise again that God got it right: just enough numbers to be accurate counting on the fingers! See? Duodecimals were an abortion brought about by the stupidity of the foot and the inch, the penny and the shilling. It probably explains why the more aristocratic, Brexiteering politicians have this regressive, atavistic urge to bring back the old world: somehow, the old currency made the Brits a little more advanced... as if. You just need to catch the accents to get the photo. John Bull must be back at home enjoying his whisky and soda. Quite why the guy down the boozer also bought into their crap is anybody's guess.

:-)

Well, if we really wanted to get technical I could bring up the fact that the first number system was base 60, meaning there were 60 different symbols.  And yes, you can count 60 using your fingers, just in a different way then what we are use to today. 

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Once you get a sense what that is (elegance) in school, it stays in your subconscious and surfaces with no particular effort when you start photographing.

That says it all, IMHO.
And if we have to explain "elegance," then, as the Sage said, "You ain't never goin' to understand it."

[Ivophoto]

If one needs to do a count, obviously too much time was spent in school.

Peter

I never got laid by showing of my coding or math skills.


(Hm, I lie, but it’s a case of denial.)



By showing my camera neither,.....


Hm.

[JNB_Rare]

Rob, when you shoot boobs, the only math you need is the ability to count to two 

For maximum boob exposure, work in binary. You may count two, but see 10.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

For maximum boob exposure, work in binary. You may count two, but see 10.

😂

[KLaban]

...whereas art can be pretty much anything that looks good.

Thankfully - for the Sunday painter apart - art can be free of such constraints.