Poll

Which (if any) of the new mirrorless systems interest you?

Nikon - 45.7 mp in a compact weathersealed package...
- 29 (34.1%)
Canon - wow - a 28-70 f2.0!
- 5 (5.9%)
Fuji - GH5-alike video with "best of APS-C" stills and great controls - or reasonably priced MF?
- 17 (20%)
I'm waiting for Panasonic - might it be a RED I can afford?
- 8 (9.4%)
Sony hasn't released anything in the past few weeks, but I like my mature system.
- 26 (30.6%)

Total Members Voted: 69


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?  (Read 15417 times)

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2018, 05:29:42 pm »

...

I use the Fuji xp2 and added a xh-1. I am selling off most Fuji lenses I have.

I want less weight, a wide, mid prime. And a zoom for tele. The Fuji 55-200 is still heavy, for me.

...

A Fuji just about  meets most of my requirements.

...

p.s. I am still not convinced with the FUJI foliage renderings.

With the Capture One express now free there is another option out there, although truth be told I was never that impressed with it in the past; sharpness was a little better, colors weren't. I'll have more time for testing now though.

A wide mid prime? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it. The 14 2.8 is wide and light, then you have the newest F2 primes that gain sharpness but lose character at least for the 35mm. The 27 2.8 is as light as it gets and sharp while at it. The newly announced 16 2.8 seems interesting.

Rayyan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 464
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2018, 01:21:04 am »

Hi armand.

A wide, a mid prime, and a tele.

I have the 14/2.8. ( and the 16/1.4 )
Mid prime, I use the 35/1.4. Prefer it to the 35/2.
Tele..90/2 collecting dust, 56/1.2..sold it, use the 50/2 but the 55-200 seems a possibility for me.

I have been usin C1 pro for quite sometime and is satisfactory for my needs.

The only issue with Fuji X-trans for me remains the intermittent mushy foliage issue. Hence I tend to carry a Nikon too.

For most of my needs the Fuji remains the choice, for me. I have my iPhone for the little video I do.

The announcements at PK 2018...don’t add anything for me.

With the Capture One express now free there is another option out there, although truth be told I was never that impressed with it in the past; sharpness was a little better, colors weren't. I'll have more time for testing now though.

A wide mid prime? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it. The 14 2.8 is wide and light, then you have the newest F2 primes that gain sharpness but lose character at least for the 35mm. The 27 2.8 is as light as it gets and sharp while at it. The newly announced 16 2.8 seems interesting.
Logged

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2018, 10:42:00 am »

Ok, I get it now.
For wides looks like you are covered, same for mid where I too prefer the 1.4 vs the 2 version, even if it focuses slower.

Short telephoto is a little tricky. The 90 requires dedication and I don’t use it as much as I should because of the weight and it’s a pity as I think it’s their best lens. The 55-200 is a little is on the heavier side too and unless I know for sure I’ll use it it stays home too.

If you want to replace the 56 there are few options right now. You could use the 60 2.4; it is slow to focus and you lose some aperture but it is sharp and very light. Another option would be the 18-55, and you lose even more aperture.
The best option is what you are using now, the new 50 F2 where you gain WR but it’s a little short at 75mm equiv; this is the only one that I dont have but I’ve read good things about it. There is a macro out there at 80 but heavy as well.
You could also adapt one of your Nikons, you’ll have to settle with manual focus only.

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2018, 10:45:05 am »

PS. Keep in mind that you think the 90 is too heavy, the 55-200 is even heavier, although definitely more versatile

Kirk_C

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2018, 11:31:44 pm »

Personally I think you began your poll before the most significant introduction.
Logged

KLaban

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2451
    • Keith Laban Photography
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #85 on: September 29, 2018, 01:42:58 pm »

Personally I think you began your poll before the most significant introduction.

Agreed.

Rayyan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 464
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2018, 11:10:50 am »

Armand, thank you for your observations. Much appreciated.

My current Fujis plus the 3 f2s are more than what I am capable of.
Hence these new cameras are really superfluous to my needs.

Kind regards.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #87 on: September 30, 2018, 03:58:42 pm »

I had an "I'm waiting for Panasonic" option in there, specifically to cover that - I didn't know that it was going to include Leica and Sigma...
Logged

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #88 on: September 30, 2018, 04:47:57 pm »

I had an "I'm waiting for Panasonic" option in there, specifically to cover that - I didn't know that it was going to include Leica and Sigma..
I thought the Panasonic announcements were anti-climatic. And the prototype cameras were larger than their Canon and Nikon counterparts, which is certainly a step in the wrong direction. I guess they needed something to better balance those big Leica and Sigma lenses.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2018, 01:28:55 am »

The Leica SL lenses are huge, and I've never heard any suggestion that their image quality is spectacular enough to be worth the lofty price tags. Sigma Art lenses are also famously large,  although they are famous for their image quality at relatively affordable prices. For my use, a big-body system with all (or mostly) big lenses is useless, no matter the image quality.

Unless they have some really special secret sauce, they aren't going to outdo the Fuji GFX 100 for still image quality, and it looks like their body is going to be close in size to the big Fuji, with many lenses at least as large (depending on focal length). From a purely still image perspective, they seem to have produced something that can be described as:

A Z7 (or A7rIII if you prefer) that's twice the size
OR
A D850 with oversized lenses and compromised AF
OR
A GFX 100, but hold the medium format...

Of course, there are two wild cards here... The big one is video. Panasonic has long had class-leading video quality, and I can easily see one or both of these two bodies (we'll see which one has better video features when the full specs come out) ending up in the rarefied realm of video quality occupied by Red and Arri (although without Red's beyond 4k features). Really top-end video would probably be limited to the XQD slot, which can handle gigabit per second data rates (both in terms of write speed and available card sizes - a 256 GB card records half an hour at a gigabit per second). This would allow some previously unseen (outside of high-end cinema cameras) combinations of image size and frame rate (4Kp120 and 1080p480 should be possible - maybe some ultra slo-mo rates like 720p960 as well???). 8Kp30 is feasible, too - but I would imagine that "it's an 8K video camera" would have been in the specs if true. We'll see if the final video specs include very high combinations of frame rate and resolution (and/or ultra-high quality compression at more plebian rates)?

The other wild card is a high-resolution Foveon body. At certain ISO settings, and with certain subject matter, a ~45 MP FF Foveon sensor (that Sigma claims at ~70 MP) could be gorgeous. Like all Foveons, it will lack versatility - expect a maximum really usable ISO between 400 and 1600. It may (or may not) also lack dynamic range - but its color and detail rendering could go well beyond any other FF sensor, surpassing even the 50 MP medium format sensor, and approaching what the GFX 100 sensor can do.  A very special purpose camera, but possibly a very special one in some applications...

Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2018, 09:38:36 am »

I'm waiting for the GFX100.

It seems like it's the ultimate camera, at least for me. 100MP, IBIS, 100% PDAF, C1, Highly adaptable, Pixel Shift.

It doesn't seem like it could get any better and I am ready to place my order.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
From where I stand....
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2018, 08:40:38 pm »

Hi,

My take is that EVF cameras will take over from DSLRs. Obviously Canon and Nikon must enter the EVF market sooner or later and they just did that.

It seems that they did not go all the way. The Z7 is not a mirrorless D850 and the EOS R is not at the feature level of the Canon 5DIV.

The Canon EOS R is interesting for me, as I am shooting mostly with Canon mount lenses on Sony A7rII. So the EOS R would do good service for things that the Canon/Sony combo doesn't shine at. But I will probably hold to my wallet until next generation.

The Panasonic/Leica/Sigma alliance is obviously a good thing.

Fuji offering affordable MF is very interesting. But I would say that they have done that with the GFX for two years. I am not sure that the lower price of the GFX 50R matters a lot, you are buying into a system, add a couple of lenses and you still spend over 10k$US anyway.

It seems that the GFX has really excellent lenses. Jim Kasson is a retired scientist/engineer who has done a lot of testing on the Fuji GFX and found that the lenses are Otus class. I would think that the 100MP sensor is really needed to make those lenses best justice.

But I am not a GFX buyer, as I don't need that image quality. But, I think that the GFX is the most rational choice if MFD quality is needed.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 08:52:45 pm by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2018, 01:31:58 am »

I'm waiting for the GFX100.

It seems like it's the ultimate camera, at least for me. 100MP, IBIS, 100% PDAF, C1, Highly adaptable, Pixel Shift.

It doesn't seem like it could get any better and I am ready to place my order.

Price?

What do you do with you images that requires 100mp?
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2018, 08:11:13 am »

Hi,

It is said to be around 10k$US.

The way it is the next generation Sony sensor is 100MP. MFD is a small market and there is no new 50 MP sensor on Sony's roadmap.

Also, 100 MP will yield less aliasing and moiré than 50 MP.

If you print large, like 30"x40" it is probable that 100 MP will show advantage over 50 MP.

It is also quite possible that we will see 60-70 MP in 24x36 within say two years. You probably want an MFD camera that resolves higher than 24x36 mirrorless.

Best regards
Erik

Price?

What do you do with you images that requires 100mp?
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2018, 04:34:33 pm »

What do you do with you images that requires 100mp?

You use 'em as an excuse to brag, of course.  ;D

Seriously, I think Erik has it right: you make ginormous prints. Otherwise there's no practical point.

-Dave-
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Nikon looks the best for my needs - this will differ for different people.
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2018, 07:15:55 pm »

The more I read about the Z7, the more I'm convinced that my decision to get on the list was right - it's the best match for what I'm doing - landscape, often involving very long hikes (not necessarily the best choice for everyone - I can see merit in all the systems, depending on what you're doing). I don't have one yet - I'd be posting photos if I did - hopefully soon, I can't wait to use that big ol' sensor for fall color!...

Here's Why:
1.) Big pixel count (while keeping pixel size reasonable) and big dynamic range. This is as much overall sensor IQ as one can cram into a hikeable package. I'm not sure that even 3 year old 50 MP cropped medium format sensor in the Hasselblad and the GFX 50 line is a meaningful upgrade (the 100 MP sensor coming out in the GFX 100 almost certainly will be, but that's at least twice the system weight, not to mention three times the cost.

2.) Weather sealing/durability. I haven't seen anyone refute Nikon's claims that it's a D850 from a durability and sealing standpoint, and I've seen a lot of support for those claims. That's at least in the same range as the top Fujis (X-H1 and medium format), and well beyond any Sony (even the A9 has unsealed points) or the EOS R (which Canon explicitly refers to as in the 6D Mark II class, which translates into Nikonese as "kind of like the D610 or the D7500" - D850 in Canonish is "somewhere between a 5D mk IV and a 1Dx mkII"). The only mirrorless camera that might be more resistant to the dust, mist,  etc. of long-hike landscape photography is an E-M1 mk II (add DSLRs and you can add a couple of top Pentaxes, plus the D5 and the 1 Dx mk II (and their predecessors). The E-M1 mk II would mean going from the very top of the range in image quality I can realistically carry to the bottom of that range. A pro sports DSLR is outside of the realistic weight range for me to hike with and into the GFX 100S weight range (if I were to carry anything that heavy, it wouldn't be a 9 FPS 20ish MP DSLR, it would be a 100 MP camera!).

3.) Lens roadmap. Apart from the NOCT, the initial Nikon lenses make sense for what I want to do - very high quality for modest size and weight (sacrificing aperture). The 14-30 is due next year, and a 14-30/24-70 kit is about as good as it gets for long hikes up to hundreds of miles (the only other thing I might want is a macro lens - long lenses are useful, but not carryable - and, unfortunately, that's physics). The very solid FTZ adapter invites the possibility of anything from a very long lens (theoretically up to a 1200-1700mm if I had the money to buy it and the artillery mount to handle it) to a tilt/shift lens for use closer to the car.

4.)Ergonomics. It really does handle like a nice DSLR - different from a Fuji, but also nice.

Why not (in rough order of how close it came to the (nearly) final decision to add Nikon Z to my Fuji system):

1.) Stick with Fuji APS-C only? I'm certainly planning on keeping my Fuji system - I have lenses Nikon doesn't yet make for the Z, and I can also assemble an even lighter one-lens kit for when mobility is absolutely paramount (X-T2 plus little 18-55)... 46 MP with two extra stops of DR at certain ISOs (that I like to shoot at) is pretty irresistible, though.

2.) Add Fuji MF, since I already know and like Fuji? This got very serious consideration, and was, in fact, the option that came closest... What I looked at the hardest was the GFX 50R, which is the most hikeable form of Fuji MF. The lenses are big, even if the GFX 50 R body isn't huge (the "not here yet" 40mm near-pancake might be the exception) . The lack of any kind of IS on most lenses is a serious drawback to me. Image quality is very close - I used the Imaging Resource comparometer test, because it's the only thing that gives the exact same shot on two cameras, and the differences are tiny (generally favoring the Fuji, but by so little that it could easily  just be Fuji's superior JPEG engine or a minor difference in lens quality). I'm sure the GFX 100S will be in a different class, and it has stabilization, but that's also in a completely different weight and price class.

3.) Look at Sony? Weather sealing - see the imaging resource test, where the Sony does much less well than just about anything else... Ergonomics - I've shot a lot of Sonys, and they always feel (to me) like computers with lenses instead of cameras with digital hardware in them. Lenses - The Nikkors seem to be superior to anything Sony makes in a comparable size and weight range - the 24-70 G-Master may very well be as good or better than the little Nikkor zoom, but it's twice as heavy, and the 24-70 "Zeiss" doesn't seem close to the Nikkor. Sony certainly has a lot of appeal to someone looking for a wider native lens range (I'm really looking for two native zooms for the majority of my work (standard and wide)), or more bodies to choose from.

4.) Think about Canon? 30 MP doesn't seem worth the jump from 24 MP Fuji, especially when it might actually cost me dynamic range. The initial lenses don't appeal to me as much - I suspect this would be very different if I were a portrait photographer salivating over fast apertures and not minding a little weight. I haven't handled one myself (and it doesn't seem close enough that I feel like I need to, although I'll certainly take a look before handing over the $ for the Nikon if the shop where I'm on the Nikon list has one). No IBIS is a disadvantage, although the most hikeable lens does have lens IS (and knowing Canon's reputation for lens IS, it's likely to be very good). No roadmap for a native wide-angle, which is the second lens I'd want (although I like the little bit of extra reach on the 24-105). Many initial reviews don't love the ergonomics (somewhere in between Sony and Nikon/Fuji), especially the touch bar.

5.) Wait for Panasonic? Big bodies and lenses without the benefit of medium format. I can't see the sensor being any better than the Nikon/Sony sensor, because it's none of:
a.) medium format
b.) 16-bit
c.) significantly higher resolution.
The 46 MP Nikon sensor (and its close cousin the 42.4 MP Sony sensor) are pushing the limits of what's technically possible for a ~45MP, 24x36mm, 14-bit Bayer sensor pretty darned hard. They have useful data in the final bit of the ADC at base ISO (so any more DR would require a 15 or 16 bit readout), they're getting very close to the theoretical limit of their resolution at low ISOs, and their color depth is as good as Bayer's going to get. It may not be possible to improve on that sensor (at least not very much) within its basic parameters - and the Panny sensor doesn't break through any of those parameters. If it were 16-bit, it certainly could have more DR. If it were well above 50 MP, it could resolve better (it might take 60 MP to see it in a print). If it were medium format, it could have different bokeh. If it were a Foveon, it could have different color in a way that can't be adjusted with a camera profile. But it's none of those things - it's another ~45 MP 14-bit full-frame Bayer sensor, and it's constrained by the theoretical limits of such a sensor, which the Nikon and the Sony are very close to reaching.

What the Panasonic could very well have is significantly different (better) video - I'm almost expecting it, but I'm not willing to pay the weight for it... Someone who's more of a hybrid still-video shooter may well want the better video.

They're all appealing to different photographers, especially when Canon gets a body worthy of the 28-70 f2 and 50 f1.2 out there,  but Nikon (plus my existing Fuji APS-C) is my choice for those reasons...

Dan
Logged

johnvanatta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
    • Website
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2018, 10:33:09 pm »

My conclusions exactly. I think the most important thing about the Z isn't any of the features, but that Nikon is actually breaking from the pack with their premium f4 zooms and f1.8 primes, whereas Sony, despite some forays down that road, clearly has their heart on large, fast GMs right now. Zeiss is doing their best to help keep things compact, but they aren't making any zooms.

It's pricey and MF only but, the Voigtlander 180/4 may be backpack-able. 645g with caps and FTZ attached. Not a lot of options for lightweight, high quality telephotos...it's nearly double the weight of my Olympus 75/1.8, but that's the price you pay for 35mm :/
Logged

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2018, 06:22:44 am »

The new 70-300 E lens is about 680g, without the FTZ though. I think it's the lightest telephoto zoom that still offers good quality.

D Fuller

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 608
    • AirStream Pictures
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2018, 10:52:09 am »

The new 70-300 E lens is about 680g, without the FTZ though. I think it's the lightest telephoto zoom that still offers good quality.

Also, the 300mm PF prime is brilliant on the Z7. Well balanced, sharp, light and extremely hand-holdable.
Logged
business website: www.airstream.pictures
blog: thirtynineframes.com/blog

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Mirrorless comparison - Does anything announced recently help you?
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2018, 08:37:59 pm »

Both the 70-300 and the 300 PF seem like good lenses for Nikon to (eventually) put out Z-mount versions of (or closely related lenses). Depending on how they do it, they could be either lighter than the F-mount versions, perhaps with better image quality (maybe marginally, since long lenses don't benefit nearly as much as wides from the better mount dimensions), or as heavy as the F-mount version plus the FTZ (in which case, why bother).

If they redesign the lenses slightly to take advantage of the Z-mount, I would expect them to be a little bit smaller and lighter than their F-mount twins (assuming very similar specs). The other approach is what Sigma did when they produced E-mount versions of the ART lenses - they just put what amounts to a permanent mount adapter on the back of existing designs. The E-mount lenses are about 24 mm longer than the Canon EF version of the same lens (not coincidentally, EF is an all-electronic mount like the E-mount with a flange distance 24mm longer).

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7   Go Up