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Author Topic: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.  (Read 13038 times)

pschefz

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2018, 01:50:11 pm »


All of these are entirely unrelated to the sensor:
- Infinity Platform
- Capture One Inside
- Dual Next-Gen storage: XQD and SD with future support for CFexpress
- USB-C and Ethernet tethering
- Wireless Tethering (actual raw file transfer)
- In camera JPGs
- Pinch to Zoom
- Multi-finger gesture ready
- Brighter, Sharper, Faster LCD Previews
- Improved Dark-Frame workflow


almost all of these features are standard on any midrange DSLR or mirrorless today, the ethernet connection is probably great for the right environment, the double slots for all media are definitely great.....of course those smaller cameras dont have to push that many pixels around....but...
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2018, 02:04:36 pm »

So Capture One inside the back; will LCC be able to be performed in the back and applied to subsequent image captures, like in C1?  If so, will wireless transfers to iPads have those corrections applied for preview in C1 Pilot? 
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2018, 02:07:56 pm »

So Capture One inside the back; will LCC be able to be performed in the back and applied to subsequent image captures, like in C1?  If so, will wireless transfers to iPads have those corrections applied for preview in C1 Pilot?

Initially no. At launch the in-back processing will be limited to a preselected list of styles that does not include LCC.

But this is precisely the kind of feature that the Infinity Platforms hardware-umph and software modularity would allow them to do via Feature Update if they see that demand and feedback.

siddhaarta

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2018, 02:17:24 pm »

Phase's strategy seems more clear than ever....retreat to the highest end and not offer backs in the cropped sensor format. However, that's not really a strategy, as the market made the decision. Try selling an XF system with a 100mp cropped sensor for $35,000 when Fuji and Hasselblad are selling a GFX and X1D with the same sensor for less than $10,000. What isn't clear is whether Phase has abandoned all development efforts with the cropped sensor, including for a new mirrorless platform. I hope not, but I am not optimistic. I think Phase is terrified of spending the huge R&D dollars to develop a new system that would cannibalize the XF system and lenses and, more significantly, force it to compete on price and features with Fuji and Hasselblad. All in all, this a stunning sea change in the medium format landscape. Phase was the 800 lb. gorilla. Hasselblad was on life support and all but done with after the Stellar/Lunar debacle. Fuji didn't exist in this space. Now, we have two amazing new cameras, the X1D and the GFX, with amazing lenses, at amazingly low price points.
One interesting nugget is that the new IQ4 150 will NOT be available in an H mount. Only for the Phase XF. Thus, there is no longer a Phase One upgrade path for the owner of an H series camera and lenses. The circle of Phase One hypocrisy is now fully closed. Back in the day, Phase (and its partisans) screamed loudly about Hasselblad closing off the H system to third party (i.e., Phase One) backs. Now, you no longer can use a Phase IQ4 back on a Hasselblad H camera body; you can't use a Hasselblad back on an XF; and you can't use Capture One software with any medium format camera not made by Phase One. Since the rental houses have typically offered H bodies and lenses with Phase backs, I guess Phase has decided that most wouldn't upgrade to 150MP anyway, so they will try to force the few that might upgrade to switch over to the XF platform.
The new IQ4 150 is not "Trichromatic." Phase says it's not necessary with the new sensor. That's today. In 2 years, will we see a repeat of the Trichromatic update of the IQ100, after we were told that the color of that back was so exceptional?

Totally agree with this analysis.

Nevertheless, I still think a "full frame" MF mirrorless system could have a comercial chance. Curious if Hasselblad, Phase or Fuji, or maybe Sony will risk it (don't think Leica and Pentax are candidates). One major problem are the lenses. Schneider is already very slow with their lens development, making it difficult to imagine that they could partner the development of a entirely new lens family in a relatively short time frame. On the other hand, Phase One has to ask themselves whether they can stay at the top with a somewhat limited and partially antiquated lens line. The impressive quality of recent Hasselblad XCD and Fuji wide angle lenses shows clearly the potential of new lens designs with the short flange distance, only mirrorless systems can offer.
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pschefz

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2018, 02:20:07 pm »

Initially no. At launch the in-back processing will be limited to a preselected list of styles that does not include LCC.

But this is precisely the kind of feature that the Infinity Platforms hardware-umph and software modularity would allow them to do via Feature Update if they see that demand and feedback.

the IQ4 can apply styles right in the back or am i wrong? same as fuji, sony,... with their looks or presets, correct?
i guess the jpeg comes with all the processing anyway at that point.
is capture pilot a direct connection to iPad with this? or does it still have to go through C1 on a computer?
the full size wireless raw transfer is good to have i guess but in reality nobody i know ever really uses it....i have tried to for years....wifi transfer is just too slow....150mpix files just make it worse....
but a good/smart preview/jpeg (with styles) directly to capture pilot iPad with some kind of rating system (back into the camera?) would be nice....as long as there is some kind of communication back and forth...hasselblad has it with focus mobile....
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2018, 02:40:36 pm »

the IQ4 can apply styles right in the back or am i wrong? same as fuji, sony,... with their looks or presets, correct? i guess the jpeg comes with all the processing anyway at that point.

Other cameras: shoot RAW+JPG with a style selected and the JPG receives the style but the raw does not. Moreover the math to accomplish the style is not available in the raw processors most people use (C1/LR) so you have to approximate the look (e.g. eyeball the addition of saturation/contrast) to get the raw to look like the JPG looked like, which takes time and will never create a perfect match.

IQ4: Shoot raw or raw+jpg and both files receive the style. In the case of the raw it's a raw with a Capture One style attached to it (so you can, of course, remove any of those adjustments without loss of quality). Since the math and adjustment set are the same you'll see (within the limit of a camera screen vs Eizo) the same color, tones, and noise reduction/sharpening. Day 1 that will only be with specific preset styles loaded into the back, but the hope is to evolve this feature rapidly to allow the user to use their own styles or commercial styles like the DT Style Pack.

is capture pilot a direct connection to iPad with this? or does it still have to go through C1 on a computer?

The IQ4 can create its own Ad Hoc Wifi network or join an existing network. An iOS device running Capture Pilot can log directly into the IQ4. No computer required.

Note that this is Capture Pilot (wireless review/control) which is different than Wireless Tethering (direct raw, or JPG, transfer to computer). The IQ2 and IQ3 backs could do Capture Pilot (without computer) while the IQ4 can do both Capture Pilot and Wireless Tethering.


the full size wireless raw transfer is good to have i guess but in reality nobody i know ever really uses it....i have tried to for years....wifi transfer is just too slow....150mpix files just make it worse....

I encourage you to keep an open mind about the speed that P1 will accomplish with this. It will definitely not be as fast as USB-C but:
- This is not an optional add-on wifi accessory or a 3rd party wireless device. This is natively P1 from start to finish. Phase One controls the entire pipeline end-to-end and can optimize each step in the chain
- Capture One math is used in both places and the processor in the IQ4 is very fast so there are plenty of ways P1 could make some shortcuts (e.g. sending a preview generated by the on-board processor ahead of the raw for faster time-to-screen) to improve the user experience
- Phase One uses a different data path for their tethering than most (all?) other camera companies. It is compressed on the fly and sent directly from the working memory.
- Phase One owns great IP for raw file compression. The IIQ-S raw file size of the IQ4 150mp is ~80mb which is only ~35% larger than a Canon 5Ds R raw file.
- Phase One knows that a large percentage of their users tether and will buy more cameras if wireless tethering works well. For commodity camera makers tethering is only a very small percentage of their user base.
- For fastest possible performance you could shoot raw to card and JPG to computer. Again, both files are being created and managed by the same Capture One math in both back and computer, so the look will be the same. Also, the data path here is also direct from working memory to both places simultaneously rather than first going to card and then being queued to go via wireless.

but a good/smart preview/jpeg (with styles) directly to capture pilot iPad with some kind of rating system (back into the camera?) would be nice....as long as there is some kind of communication back and forth

Phase One has had this since the IQ2 in 2013. The IQ4 adds some hardware (that I don't think I can talk about) to make this experience even better.

The new thing is the ability to do full raw file transfer to Capture One on a Mac/PC.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 03:41:01 pm by Doug Peterson »
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pschefz

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2018, 03:36:39 pm »

The IQ4 can create its own Ad Hoc Wifi network or join an existing network. An iOS device running Capture Pilot can log directly into the IQ4. No computer required.

Note that this is Capture Pilot (wireless review/control) which is different than Wireless Tethering (direct raw, or JPG, transfer to computer). The IQ2 and IQ3 backs could do Capture Pilot (without computer) while the IQ4 can do both Capture Pilot and Wireless Tethering.


I encourage you to keep an open mind about the speed that P1 will accomplish with this. It will definitely not be as fast as USB-C but:
- This is not an optional add-on wifi accessory or a 3rd party wireless device. This is natively P1 from start to finish. Phase One controls the entire pipeline end-to-end and can optimize each step in the chain
- Capture One math is used in both places and the processor in the IQ4 is very fast so there are plenty of ways P1 could make some shortcuts (e.g. sending a preview generated by the on-board processor ahead of the raw for faster time-to-screen) to improve the user experience
- Phase One uses a different data path for their tethering than most (all?) other camera companies. It is compressed on the fly and sent directly from the working memory.
- Phase One owns great IP for raw file compression. The IIQ-S raw file size of the IQ4 150mp is ~80mb which is only ~35% larger than a Canon 5Ds R raw file.
- Phase One knows that a large percentage of their users tether and will buy more cameras if wireless tethering works well. For commodity camera makers tethering is only a very small percentage of their user base.
- For fastest possible performance you could shoot raw to card and JPG to computer. Again, both files are being created and managed by the same Capture One math in both back and computer, so the look will be the same. Also, the data path here is also direct from working memory to both places simultaneously rather than first going to card and then being queued to go via wireless.

Phase One has had this since the IQ2 in 2013. The IQ4 adds some hardware (that I don't think I can talk about) to make this experience even better.

The new thing is the ability to do full raw file transfer to Capture One on a Mac/PC.
Thank you!
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bertlwolf

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2018, 04:45:57 pm »

Hi, any news about HDMI output? It would be great to have a higher resolution than the 1080 p30 of the IQ3100 and to be able to move the 100% magnification point away from the center if needed. I often use a Smallhd monitor with 1920p resolution for focusing.

Kind regards

Wolfgang.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2018, 06:08:33 pm »

Hi, any news about HDMI output? It would be great to have a higher resolution than the 1080 p30 of the IQ3100 and to be able to move the 100% magnification point away from the center if needed. I often use a Smallhd monitor with 1920p resolution for focusing.

HDMI Out is there. No internal video features at launch, but you could use an external monitor and/or external recorder if desired, on day one.

The hardware components and the processing power of the Infinity Platform would allow some pretty great video features via future feature update if there is enough demand. Maybe you could speak to what use-cases you have and what kinds of video features would be most important to you? As you know a ton of the work is in building the platform and adding features/interfaces on top of that is the (relatively) easy part, so feedback (especially from current/knowledgeable owners like you) on where to take this system in the near future is highly valuable.

I've heard R+D float the spec for hardware limits for video on the sensor and platform. It's much better than the IQ3. But I think they are still tweaking and testing, so for now I will refrain from providing a spec.

siddhaarta

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2018, 07:29:13 pm »

Interesting (though quite biased) read on suited lenses for 150MP (3.76 micron pixel size)

Lenses for 150MP

and

Preparation for 150MP

and this one

Shoot-Out
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 07:59:54 pm by siddhaarta »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2018, 07:54:49 pm »

Hi,

Absolutely no 100 MP sensor with BSI. Sensor development is very expensive, the chance that Sony would develop a 100 MP sensor with BSI is nil. Two new sensors, 150 MP at 54x41 mm and 100 MP at 44x33 mm. MFD is a tiny market.

If you don't want 150 MP and need BSI, you can wait for the 100 MP 44x33 mm sensor. That would have a crop factor,  but offer more movement and BSI is somewhat helpful in reducing pixel level vignetting and cross talk.

But, we don't know what Phase is planning on 44x33 mm. Time will show.

It is entirely possible that Phase One would go to another vendor and have them design a new sensor. Leica did with the S (type 007). I don't think it is probable, but time will show.

The shrinking of the pixels is not just a race for megapixels. For a given technology there is an optimum pixel size and that shrinks with narrower design rules. The 150 MP and 100 MP (44x33) sensor have the same pixel size, so Sony probably pretty much reuses the same pixel design for both. That saves a lot of design work.

Best regards
Erik

Something else I am wondering, is there any evidence that they are working on getting the BSI technology into a lower MP (but still full framed) sensor? 

I realize there a lot of landscape (f/64 club) shooters out there and rich hobbyists buying these cameras that put a big emphasis on higher mega-pixel, for different reasons, but, for us commercial shooters, we really just don't care.  (I mean no knock on landscape shooters.).

I have not had a serious conversation with any other commercial shooter about resolution in like 6 or 7 years, which is about when clients stopped asking us about the resolution of our files since all cameras gave them a file size that was usable for their needs.  The 100 MP offering seemed overkill to me, and nearly every other commercial shooter I spoke to, even clients, and this 151 MP is just insane. 

About a year ago I was shooting a penthouse in Manhattan and my assistant, who just started with me, asked if I can use the fact that I shoot with a high mega-pixel back as an additional selling point for my services.  My response was, "no, nobody cares anymore about MP."  My client was standing right next to me during this and he looked at my assistant and said, "yeah, nobody cares anymore."

At the end of day, most of us commercial shooters just want a camera that we can use in the style that is best suited for us with little obstacles in the way.  I realize for landscape photographers, this may mean better ISO performance (taking downsizing into account) to allow for faster shutter speeds to freeze movement.  For me though, this means shooting on a tech camera and not having to think about whether or not lens cast will be a issue with the amount of shift/tilt I am using.  And I also don't want to be carrying around giant Rodenstock lenses that weigh up to 2 pounds, take up a lot more room then my symmetrical lenses, and have an unique mustache distortion meaning I need to record my shifts for each image.
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Lobalobo

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2018, 08:12:28 pm »

I have to wonder if any improvements in lens cast from the BSI is canceled out by a much smaller pixel.  And why can't they get BSI in a 100 mp (which would probably work better).

Although I have read Doug's responses to this, and looked at the interesting link he provides, I was somewhat surprised at how subdued his response was. I have long been fascinated with the fact that these backs, which cost more than some sports cars, don't cater to the professionals who use technical cameras. In raising that question in the past, I remember experts replying: "just wait; once BSI backs come out, the angular response problem will be solved." So when I read the announcement of the BSI backs, I expected threads such as this one to be more of a celebration among tech camera users. What am I missing? Thanks.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2018, 08:24:39 pm »

Although I have read Doug's responses to this, and looked at the interesting link he provides, I was somewhat surprised at how subdued his response was. I have long been fascinated with the fact that these backs, which cost more than some sports cars, don't cater to the professionals who use technical cameras. In raising that question in the past, I remember experts replying: "just wait; once BSI backs come out, the angular response problem will be solved." So when I read the announcement of the BSI backs, I expected threads such as this one to be more of a celebration among tech camera users. What am I missing? Thanks.

Take this as:
1) Phase One (corporate) has traditionally provided limited guidance on use with 3rd party hardware, differing to its dealer channel since we sell both P1 and Cambo/Arca/Schneider/Arca (and other dealers sell Alpa, Sinar, Linhof, etc).
2) We believe in testing hands-on before making strong statements.

All indications are that the BSI IQ4 150mp will provide significant improvements for tech camera users. But I'll believe it and describe it aggressively when I have a load of raw file testing to stand behind it.

Lobalobo

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2018, 09:10:48 pm »

All indications are that the BSI IQ4 150mp will provide significant improvements for tech camera users. But I'll believe it and describe it aggressively when I have a load of raw file testing to stand behind it.

Makes sense. Thanks.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2018, 02:11:19 pm »

The sensor of the IQ4 100 Tr. is the same as the one in the IQ3 100 Tr

Correct

This means the improved LiveView is at the back rather than the sensor. Or does the IQ4 have 100 Tr. a worse LiveView than the 150 MPix. Versions?

The IQ4 100mp Trichromatic will have meaningfully better live view image quality, speed, and response-rate than the IQ3 100mp Trichromatic. They use the same sensor but the processing power of the IQ4 allows better use of that sensors live view feed.

The IQ4 150mp will have modestly better live view image quality, speed, and response rate than the IQ4 100mp Trichromatic because the sensor itself does have a modestly higher data rate.

Gerd_Peters

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2018, 05:35:49 am »

Thanks for the information Doug,

I had an external 7 "Field Monitor with PixelPeeking connected via HDMI, I was surprised how much better / faster the display was, the back is sometimes very sluggish and does not respond to touch, I hope that will be better with IQ4.

Do you know if the IQ4 Back has more resolution / pixels than the IQ3 Back? Unfortunately, I could not find any specs.


Greeting Gerd
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2018, 12:57:50 pm »

I had an external 7 "Field Monitor with PixelPeeking connected via HDMI, I was surprised how much better / faster the display was, the back is sometimes very sluggish and does not respond to touch, I hope that will be better with IQ4.

Do you know if the IQ4 Back has more resolution / pixels than the IQ3 Back? Unfortunately, I could not find any specs.

The HDMI Out option from the IQ3 is also on the IQ4. I've heard R+D float the spec for hardware limits for the HDMI out. It's much better than the IQ3. But I think they are still tweaking and testing, and I don't know what the spec will be at launch, so for now I will refrain from providing a spec.

The LCD on the IQ4 is the same physical LCD on the IQ3. But the processing power and software stack are MUCH faster (10x more processing umph to draw on) and the math from Capture One is now being used for the internal processing, so the detail algorithms, sharpening, noise reduction, and color are all going to much more closely match what you see in Capture One.

The increased processing power should provide a MUCH smoother, faster, and more responsive experience during image review. Think original iPhone to iPhone X in terms of overall responsiveness; you probably don't remember how laggy the original iPhone was in the same way that the IQ1 felt pretty snappy when it was first released. Expectations increase over time and a ~6 second app-launch time to launch Maps on the original iPhone now feels super slow. We'll be testing the IQ4 review speed and responsiveness as soon as we get the beta unit; as with any beta the performance is likely still being tweaked, but should still give a generally useful indication/preview of the final shipping product. I expect very good results of that testing, but as they say: Trust but Verify!

JoeKitchen

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2018, 04:42:45 pm »

I would also be curious to see an ISO sweep test where the files are reduced by 2/3s in resolution, so 151 MP to ~50 MP, and then compare noise at 100% afterwards.  Maybe capture the images in a somewhat dark interior where a fair amount of shadow pushing is needed. 

Probably best to do this on a tech camera as well, since the lens cast correction does add a bit of noise too. 

At the end of the day, if I purchased a back with this much resolution, I would almost never actually deliver the full res files unless asked.  So if after the reduction the difference is negligible, it would be a great plus for capturing people in spaces, especially with the use of a CF on the lens. 
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narikin

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2018, 06:33:32 pm »

I'm unclear of something - the XF body is unchanged - is that right?

It's not called 'XF2' or anything, so..?

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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Phase One IQ4 series. Much more than resolution.
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2018, 07:11:20 pm »

I'm unclear of something - the XF body is unchanged - is that right?

It's not called 'XF2' or anything, so..?
Yes it has not changed.  It's new IQ4 Digital backs, not a change in the camera body.
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