Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4

[hubell]

Canon didn’t get the memo that the whole world is moving in the direction of smaller and lighter gear.  Just as i expected, Canon is still thinking old school. The market for 99% of these cameras are amateur photographers and the “events” they shoot are youth soccer games, school graduations, and pictures of their cats and dogs. Do they need a a 28-70 f/2 zoom that weighs over 3 pounds? Does anyone? I personally would choose a Z7 with IBIS and an optically superb 24-70 f/4 zoom in a heartbeat over the new Canon with that f/2 zoom. This is like if Cadillac in 2018 were still trying to market 7,000 pound land boats that are dressed up with gigantic, gas guzzling engines and big tail fins.
The fallacy lies in in your whole argument that smaller lenses come at a performance cost. That’s only true if you define performance as the maximum aperture of the lens (which you clearly do). Using a smaller maximum aperture reduces size AND makes it easier to design a very high performance lens in terms of optical quality.

Stop thinking mirrorless = small. That was 8 years ago, and that idea has probably held back mirrorless development and uptake more than anything else.

Yes, you can make mirrorless systems and lenses smaller than SLRs, if you sacrifice sensor size (M43), aperture (f/4 zooms or f/1.8-2.8 primes) or lens image quality (UWAs without a retrofocus or telecentric/near-telecentric design). The lack of a mirror box and pentaprism reduces the lower limit on size. But just because you can doesn't mean you should. Small size comes at a performance cost; if you want a more capable lens, you're going to have to go bigger. You can make a lineup of slow pancake lenses for the 'small camera' niche, but that is just a niche (albeit the easiest one to capture with the sluggish, slow-focusing early mirrorless cameras which really couldn't offer much else other than small size) and can't/isn't/won't be the primary target for a camera company trying to take mirrorless mainstream as an SLR replacement.

Many people shoot mirrorless - particularly full-frame mirrorless - for reasons other than size and weight. Those focusing on small size are shooting M43 or Leica anyway, or have a Sony body with a few pancake lenses; they are not the people currently using 5D4s and 6D2s who need to be encouraged to move over to mirrorless. Mirrorless allows for an EVF with through-the-sensor image preview (including exposure and colour settings), better video performance and (on cameras with the right hardware/firmware) features like IBIS, eye focus and other AI-based focus modes. There are many photographers out there who would choose a mirrorless body even if it were the size and weight of a D850.

The 28-70/2 is a perfect event photographer's lens. It covers most of the useful focal lengths for indoor and small-area events, works better in dim lighting and produces more subject isolation than a 24-70/2.8 and weighs no more than the 70-200/2.8, which is almost permanently attached to one of a wedding photographer's two cameras. Combined with a mirrorless body and a decent flash system (the Sony flash system doesn't count as 'decent'), it provides additional capability no SLR does. Event photographers can repeat many shots (posed individuals or groups) but only have a few seconds to do so (groups won't stay posed for half a minute while a photographer chimps, adjusts settings and re-shoots). They also commonly shoot in JPEG, due to the need to quickly produce a large number of images and prints for collection at the end of the night. EVFs offer real-time white balance, exposure and image processing (saturation, contrast, etc.) previews, making them far better for shooting JPEGs than SLRs, no matter the lens attached. The 28-70/2 on a mirrorless body is almost ideal for this kind of situation - and this kind of situation represents a significant number of Canon SLR users. Just turn up to any corporate or social evening function and look for the photographer carrying a 5D3/5D4 with 24-70 and flash attached. A mirrorless body with 28-70/2 does the same job, but better.

Canon didn't release a 24-70/4, and Sony/Zeiss didn't update theirs, because they already have a 24-105/4 which offers a much less limiting focal length range for the single kit lens user. The Sony 24-105/4 G is optically very good, and there's no reason the Canon one won't be too. And they're not dramatically larger or heavier than a 24-70/4.

[BernardLanguillier]

"Effect on portrait shooting, pupil AF * 1
Detects the subject's pupil and AF it [Eye pupil AF ※ 1 ] loaded. By default, the pupil closer to the camera is selected automatically * 2 . Even when the depth of field is infinitely shallow, you can focus on the pupil with focus.
※ 1   
It functions when [One-shot AF], [Face + Tracking Priority AF], and [Pupil AF: Enable] are selected. If the distance between the pupil and the camera is about the same, select the pupil closer to the center of the screen.
※ 2   
It can also be selected manually. Touch the eyes in the face selection frame to select it, or you can move the AF point with the four-way controller."

Indeed, that is nice if it works. Is it both AF-S and AF-C?

Did Canon mention it during the presentation?

Cheers,
Bernard

[faberryman]

The market for 99% of these cameras are amateur photographers and the “events” they shoot are youth soccer games, school graduations, and pictures of their cats and dogs.

The new camera with 24-105 runs $3500. Doesn't sound like the soccer game and cats and dogs market to me.

[faberryman]

For a current Fuji user thinking of moving to FF mirrorless for still photography (no video), and no investment in Canon, Nikon or Sony lenses, is there any reason to pick the Canon or Nikon over the Sony? I'm not seeing what these new systems bring to the table. Looks like me too offerings.

[Dave Rosser]

The market for 99% of these cameras are amateur photographers and the “events” they shoot are youth soccer games, school graduations, and pictures of their cats and dogs.

As a true amateur who has not needed to sell my pictures (well except for a few motor sport pictures I sold in the 1960s/70s  ) and who now gives prints away I feel you have got the wrong impression of what an amateur photographer is.  I am fairly typical and you can see typical amateur photography here.   

[Bernard ODonovan]

Indeed, that is nice if it works. Is it both AF-S and AF-C?

Did Canon mention it during the presentation?

Cheers,
Bernard

Canon Technical Advisor Rudy Winston mentions it here and they show a very honest demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwwf9YWnSZI

As he says, really for static subjects. It appears to freeze the focal point when focus locks. So some subject movement on shutter release will not be a big issue as the depth will be correct and exposure locked too, subject to shutter speed of course. If it kept hunting to the point of shutter release it maybe more irritating, so I am glad it works that way...

I guess we will need to wait the next generation or pro models for faster eye tracking modes in continuous AF

I read on the Japanese site that while the sports focus is in larger blocks once it finds a subject the fine points are used for focus block movement automatically... Need to find out more about that, but it sounds very usable... I think the concern about too many focus points will be overcome for those that worry too much...

Looks like Canon will start to pull back users who bought Sony bodies...

Look forward to all the reviews...

[BJL]

Imaging resource has a nice summary, including a note on Eye AF
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/09/05/canon-announces-the-new-full-frame-eos-r-mirrorless-camera

[hubell]

As a true amateur who has not needed to sell my pictures (well except for a few motor sport pictures I sold in the 1960s/70s  ) and who now gives prints away I feel you have got the wrong impression of what an amateur photographer is.  I am fairly typical and you can see typical amateur photography here. 

Some of the best work I have seen is  from "amateur" photographers. That's really not the point. The point is that a 24-70 f/2 lens that weighs 3+ pounds is, to me, a bad joke. The fact that Canon chose to release it as part of the small, initial group of lenses for its new mirrorless camera system tells me that Canon is still thinking old school. They persist in the pattern of making (1) big and heavy lenses that are fast, with better construction and overall better optical performance and a much higher price point to justify it, and (2) smaller, lighter lenses that are slower, much cheaper, and of lesser quality in terms of materials and optical performance. You know, it's like charging by the pound.

[Bernard ODonovan]

For a current Fuji user thinking of moving to FF mirrorless for still photography (no video), and no investment in Canon, Nikon or Sony lenses, is there any reason to pick the Canon or Nikon over the Sony? I'm not seeing what these new systems bring to the table. Looks like me too offerings.

Eventually the bodies of the big three will be similar in feature sets... Remember how the now failed Samsung had bat striking ball shutter release, if you don't mind camera bodies that are too small then Sony will probably chase the same gimmicks with the same risk of closing their camera operations as their dream of being number 1 continues to get disolved by the everyone is now doing mirrorless future and Canon is still number 1 for what that is worth...

Choice of Canon or Nikon is down to the choice of glass and if you like mounting and focusing in their respective rotations. Other than that for people photography I would give the edge to Canon, evidenced by retaining a low pass filter in their cameras and the typical glass they pitch at the high end. Their low end glass can be less than stellar, so not to everyone's taste. Nikon have been keeping up with things that concern landscape photography, and their new Z S primes seem tuned for sharpness, albeit wait for actual evidence as MTFs are computer predictions...

Really camera gear is a very personal choice and the V Loggers are just adding to the noise rather than helping as they all have their own bias... Fun to watch and worth watching for items, features and issues you may never have thought about, but best make up your own mind...

[Dave Rosser]

Some of the best work I have seen is  from "amateur" photographers. That's really not the point. The point is that a 24-70 f/2 lens that weighs 3+ pounds is, to me, a bad joke. The fact that Canon chose to release it as part of the small, initial group of lenses for its new mirrorless camera system tells me that Canon is still thinking old school. They persist in the pattern of making (1) big and heavy lenses that are fast, with better construction and overall better optical performance and a much higher price point to justify it, and (2) smaller, lighter lenses that are slower, much cheaper, and of lesser quality in terms of materials and optical performance. You know, it's like charging by the pound.

Can't disagree with that, similarly what on earth are Nikon thinking with their giant 58mm f/0.95 manual focus lens?  As an aside I once owned a Canon 7 with the 50mm f/0.95 Dream lens - quite useless, pity I didn't keep it though, they go for $3000.00+ now.

[Rado]

That 28-70/f2 lens is interesting to me. But then again I'm the sort of person who lugs around Sigma Art primes. At this point I'm not sure if I want to invest into RF lenses but it certainly is interesting. A 24-70/f4 RF, no matter how lightweight and great optically would just get a "meh, whatever" from me.

[BernardLanguillier]

Can't disagree with that, similarly what on earth are Nikon thinking with their giant 58mm f/0.95 manual focus lens?  As an aside I once owned a Canon 7 with the 50mm f/0.95 Dream lens - quite useless, pity I didn't keep it though, they go for $3000.00+ now.

Well, Nikon has published a perfectly logical yet innovative roadmap of lenses focusing on super high quality compact lenses + the pro zooms everyone needs... and one landmark lens that they have very clearly marked so by making it manual focus and assigning it an Otus like Noct brand.

Very different approaches compared to Canon who keeps following the DSLR approach of big + high quality + expensive OR small + average + cheap and keeps their customers in the dark about what’s coming as if they weren’t too sure.

You may prefer the Canon one, but it seems obvious that the strategies are extremely different.

The way I look at it, Nikon has understood the opportunities of mirrorless better. They have delivered what many were asking with their high end f1.8 glass. Meaning uncompromised quality without the bulk and cost. This is very close to what Leica should have done with the SL. This is the closest thing to a truly digital M system in fact.

And we won’t have to wait another 3.5 months to take photographs with these, the first 2 will be here in 3 weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard

[faberryman]

A significant number of photographers are either Canon or Nikon users and have collections of their lenses. They will invariably stick with their brand and buy one of the new mirrorless offerings. For everyone else, Sony seems like the better play.

[davidgp]

A significant number of photographers are either Canon or Nikon users and have collections of their lenses. They will invariably stick with their brand and buy one of the new mirrorless offerings. For everyone else, Sony seems like the better play.

Thinking now, after two weeks of Nikon Z release and now Canon R, having all the three systems, Sony, Nikon and Canon good and bad points. I see that actual Canon or Nikon user, if they jump mirrorless, will do it using their brands so they can have a good support of their lenses. Other people, not sure if they will pick Sony, maybe now they have more lenses, but I suppose in two or three years that difference will be more subtle... specially if brands like tamron, sigma, etc... start releasing lenses supporting all systems (I suppose it will depend on the time to reverse engineer the mount, although I don't expect Canon or Nikon to have gone from scratch with the interface..., so maybe it is quicker than expected).

[Bernard ODonovan]

A significant number of photographers are either Canon or Nikon users and have collections of their lenses. They will invariably stick with their brand and buy one of the new mirrorless offerings. For everyone else, Sony seems like the better play.

May be worth opening a thread to ask the advice more directly. Tell the forum what type of photography you want to do and which camera features inspire you...

Best of luck which ever system you choose...

[Bernard ODonovan]

The EF and RF mounts have the same diameter (ID)

The EF flange is 44.0 mm so 24.0 mm deeper than the RF body flange

If the new lens has the rear element within 24mm of the rear, it would rule out Canon making a EF version with the same optical design, to get the same performance, it would likely then need a bigger lens...

I doubt Canon would limit the EF range this long if they could have made it a similar size and weight...

When Canon launched the EF mount, some of the original lenses were to show the capability of the mount. I guess history is repeating and they want to show what the RF mount allows...

The new 35mm appears to show case the ability to get the rear element into the body to reduce the distance further. Their slightly deeper flange distance than the Nikon Z is not stopping small compact lens designs... Macro lenses are normally bigger than a standard lens...

It would be typical of Canon to choose these designs to showcase the new mount...

Since USM lens are in the launch the EF range should work quite well on the RF bodies, albeit the new RF mount has extra contacts and some patents from canon suggest a possible next gen interface which can also work with legacy EF via the RF EF adapters...

If the rumour is true that this is the fastest full frame mirrorless AF then it will be related to the new interface tech that allows faster body to lens communication...

Looks like the RF are all focus by wire. At least they have selectable response via the camera to fine adjust to taste...

Dan, beyond my replies this video better explains it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaDa5ewQ_DM

[BJL]

The new camera with 24-105 runs $3500. Doesn't sound like the soccer game and cats and dogs market to me.

Indeed—we need to get past this false dichotomy of:

• "professionals", who need the fastest possible lenses and/or the highest available resolution, or some such extreme of performance.
  
• "amateurs", who are unskilled snap-shooters, and probably should just use their phones or at most a super-zoom compact.

There are a lot of us who are rather far from either of those pigeon holes; some are well suited by either a US$2600 Nikon Z with 24-70/4 [$2750 if any F mount lenses are needed] or a $3400 Canon R with 24-105/4 [$3500 if any EF mount lenses are needed]. Also, given those prices, many other "tweeners" will continue to prefer a smaller, less expensive "enthusiast" level kit in one of the mainstream ILC format offerings, MFT or "APS-C".

[Bernard ODonovan]

Interesting, Canon rate the EOS R as having 40 times the AF processing power as the EOS 5D IV...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795KC--r_cg

[Dan Wells]

A lot of weird decisions here - not only the very heavy initial lenses, but DPReview's slideshow confirms that this is a 6D level camera in terms of weather sealing and build quality.

Maybe coming at the 6D level makes sense, but it shouldn't be $2299 AND 6D level, and it shouldn't be 6D level build with two of its four lenses being heavy, expensive exotics...

If it's a 6D level body (admittedly with a 5D sensor), it should be $1799 or so, and the lenses should be what matches a 6D - f4 zooms and f1.8 (possibly compact f1.4) primes.

OR they should provide a roadmap showing when additional lenses (and bodies?) are coming...

[BernardLanguillier]

We cannot rule out the possibility that the brains of Canon designers/users vs Nikon designers/users are wired a bit differently.

The logic of this launch is escaping me a bit also, but many Canon users seem happy so it seems that the release is overall a good match for their needs/expectations for a system.

There are some near things for sure such as the multiple adapters (especially the drop in filters idea), the 28-70 f2, the AF specs,...

Cheers,
Bernard