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Author Topic: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner  (Read 14815 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2018, 05:30:01 pm »

Now that the debates are closed, everybody seems to be the cool guy who knows what a “true” debate is. Hic Rhodus, hic salta, when you had a chance.

Rob C

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2018, 05:57:55 pm »




Far more worrisome to me is not the shutting down of the 'Coffee Corner' with respect to politics but that gradual lack of participation and new topics in the technical sections of LuLa.  I seldom read the camera reviews as I see no need for new gear but I regularly read and participate on the color management, printer, & LR fora and over the past 2-3 months it appears that activity perceptibly slowed.  To me this has been the major value of LuLa and if it disappears there is really not much value in the site (just my opinion obviously and I purchased the excellent technical videos that were done by Michael and Jeff).  But this is probably a topic of another thread.


The problem might be - if it exists, and I don't know because I don't pay a heap of attention to that stuff anymore - that people have come to realise that the wonderful promise of digital photography, instant art sales and personal glory beyond words is hype, as much as all those kinds of promises have ever been.

If that's so, and as I say, I can't know - then it is no surprise that those who might have cared, probably coming into digital from film and thus of a certain age and spending power, have realised the dream was just that, and called it a day. It would fit in with falling camera sales, too.

New generations, born to the cellphone camera ethic, will grow to accept its imagery as the standard of excellence, straight from the 'phone, pretty as a picture and instantly fit to send to the rest of the gang doing exactly the same thing. Why would they give a damn about all that stuff about fine art photography? Print quality; somebody prints? Do they all flock to see Rubens? No, they all flock to look at celebrities on tv - on tv? am I serious? - on the Internet. Times have changed, and culture too. Those who cling to old-fashioned notions of quality are an endagered species with no refuge in sight. One of the last bastions of visible print quality was the glossy magazines; for how much longer can they survive before either vanishing completely or being but a misrable, online shadow of their former glory?

Don't for a moment think it's unique to photography or publishing: look at the local High Street. I was chatting with my daughter today about the gents' tailor shops that would make the suits we teens used to wear at weekends, all the different shoe shops that competed, side-by-side; she'd never heard of them, and on looking the names up on the 'net, was amazed to see how much that was standard is no more. And she was born in the 60s. It's been that rapid. Even the famed dress boutiques of that decade have gone with the wind - who would have ever imagined that a newly-found, democratic freedom for young women to buy cheaply and look great wasn't enough for survival? Anyone really believe the world is going to continue to give a fig about learning photographic techniques and spend the money - or the time - on the hobby we profess to love? How much time do we, here, really spend on it?

What is there to say about photography online, or in the pub, for that matter? Even as pros, we were hard put to engage in tech talk; we were very keen to talk about photographers we knew or knew about, what they did, who gave them space in which publication, but that was all shop talk. Remove the business from the baby and "what do you got?" Not much. It's obvious here, too, with the gear plateau of today; the good people have nothing new to discuss. No new toys, no conversation,  because as I say, what can you say about pictures that means anything to anyone but yourself? We tried to make street into a breath of fesh air, and what happened? In the end, a few snaps, some good, some mediocre and some lousy. What else is to be expected? How good were all the stars 100 percent of the time, and they spent their working lives doing it?

And even with those who spend time writing about photographic technique, how much photography do they actually post? You know, walking the walk etc.

Maybe we just didn't hear the bell tolling. Or the goddam thing is cracked.

amolitor

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2018, 06:33:19 pm »

I'd guess I'm about the same age as your daughter, Rob.

It's not dead, but it is wildly different, fragmented into a thousand, a  million, little threads.

Online, it's tough. There's a massive homogenization effect as everyone comments on everything, and everyone hunts for Likes and approval. The web sites that raked in the money 10 years ago are struggling and dying now, because it turns out that anyone can set up a web site and steal a little of your traffic and anyways online ads don't work very well after all so revenues on that side are in free fall.

Outside that obvious visible world, there's loads of people hustling away doing their own thing. There's guys with a photocopier and a saddle stapler putting out 'zines with great work in them. There's people who self-pub on this platform or that, there's a million sketchy little Fine Art Publishing houses out there that are thinly veiled vanity presses, but every so often I dare say even they produce something good.

In a way it's similar to the online world, in that lowered barriers to entry have caused an explosion of bit players, as well as the demise of the larger players. But in these little print worlds, there's still a need to commit, you have to spend time and money to actually make something, so the work tends to be a heck of a lot better. You might not like it, but someone's actually working on it, they've got an idea.

What are they doing? Telling contemporary stories using the same old methods,  I think. But the stories are new, and that's kind of the point, right?

The audiences are small, and nobody's really making much money, but then again, mostly nobody made much money in the old days either. It's still a good way to go broke while making pictures that please you and maybe a few other people. I "sold" $50 worth of 4x4 prints raising money for my kid's school. Gave the rest away. Since the whole edition cost me $20 and a few hours to put together, I feel pretty good about it.

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Farmer

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2018, 07:09:50 pm »

Hic Rhodus, hic salta

I'd not come across this before, but it's great, and spot on.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2018, 10:56:54 pm »

I had to look that up, too.
In addition I learned that the numerical value of HIC RHODUS, HIC SALTA in Chaldean Numerology is: 3, while the numerical value of HIC RHODUS, HIC SALTA in Pythagorean Numerology is: 7.

Maybe we can start a thread to debate on the relative merits of these two branches of numerology.  ???
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jeremyrh

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2018, 01:17:45 am »

Maybe we can start a thread to debate on the relative merits of these two branches of numerology.  ???

My branch is better than your branch!!

(I had to look it up too, and was amused to discover that Slobodan is actually a Marxist :-)  )
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 01:22:22 am by jeremyrh »
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David Mantripp

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2018, 06:02:01 am »

Given that I seem to have made something around 20 posts in the coffee corner in toto in the last 2 years, I have difficulty visualizing how the "very disruptive" label applies, but I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder.

ETA: My crimes and wickedness are all a matter of public record, and well known to all involved here. To pretend that I am "hiding" them, or hoping that nobody remembers them, is silly. To imply that I should attach an Appendix A listing all my own crimes before commenting on anyone else's is equally silly. Of course I also have poo on me. I did not realize this was a secret (because it's not).

I wasn't talking about the Coffee Corner (which I've hardly ever visited), I was talking about your previous incarnation as a very strong critic of LuLa, which I seem to remember got you in some hot water in years past.  Not that (a) I necessarily disagreed with you, or (b) didn't find it all very entertaining (as in your rants against hapless targets like Colberg and Thein), but I'm a little disturbed that you don't recognise that Slobodan had a good point. That's all.

However, that's just banter.  What I'm way more disturbed about, and is the reason I'm cancelling my subscription, is the dismissal of climate change as "politics".  Do open your eyes please, Kevin, on your next wannabe-subsidised luxury cruise to Greenland. If you can tear them away from your toys, that is. I'm also somewhat shocked that apparently nobody else noticed or cared about that little throwaway.  Or well, better and check the aircon is working in the SUV, eh ?
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jeremyrh

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2018, 06:13:22 am »

However, that's just banter.  What I'm way more disturbed about, and is the reason I'm cancelling my subscription, is the dismissal of climate change as "politics".  Do open your eyes please, Kevin, on your next wannabe-subsidised luxury cruise to Greenland. If you can tear them away from your toys, that is. I'm also somewhat shocked that apparently nobody else noticed or cared about that little throwaway.  Or well, better and check the aircon is working in the SUV, eh ?

I don't think CC was "banned" because it is "politics" in itself, but because the mode of discourse was based on political rather than scientific judgments. One might imagine that those among us lucky enough to visit the Arctic and Antarctic would be the first to raise warning flags.

On a slightly related note there was a newspaper report of a polar bear being shot dead by cruise ship personnel on Svalbard. Perhaps it behoves us to consider very carefully our footprint on nature.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2018, 07:21:42 am »

I don't think CC was "banned" because it is "politics" in itself, but because the mode of discourse was based on political rather than scientific judgments.
I was briefly a moderator for a thread on CC that tried to document some of the scientific evidence that was coming out.  It ended up a failure for the very reason that you note.
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Rob C

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2018, 08:39:40 am »

I wasn't talking about the Coffee Corner (which I've hardly ever visited), I was talking about your previous incarnation as a very strong critic of LuLa, which I seem to remember got you in some hot water in years past.  Not that (a) I necessarily disagreed with you, or (b) didn't find it all very entertaining (as in your rants against hapless targets like Colberg and Thein), but I'm a little disturbed that you don't recognise that Slobodan had a good point. That's all.

However, that's just banter.  What I'm way more disturbed about, and is the reason I'm cancelling my subscription, is the dismissal of climate change as "politics".  Do open your eyes please, Kevin, on your next wannabe-subsidised luxury cruise to Greenland. If you can tear them away from your toys, that is. I'm also somewhat shocked that apparently nobody else noticed or cared about that little throwaway.  Or well, better and check the aircon is working in the SUV, eh ?


Yes, there seems, at least on the face of it, little reason to throw Climate Change into the political sin bin.

That said, there is no question that it is very much a political matter as it is one with physical consequences. Only political will can make the difference between being too late or just in time.

Whether it's a natural, cyclical matter or a man-made disaster masturbating in the wings makes little difference. It's clear that pouring poisons into the sea and into the air is a poor way of conserving Earth. We know there are changes that can be made to improve the situation, and even if minute (in some opinions) that's just fine: as with your bank account, every bit that's positive helps. It seems either wilful blindness or madness to refuse the chances on tap to do something to help the situation or, at the very least, buy us a few more centuries.

My daughter and her doctor daughter have just left after spending a short holiday chez moi. This time, the heat got to them too; in past visits they did as the mad dogs and Englishmen are reputed to do, but not in 2018. My own compulsory walking routine has been turned on its head for the first time in fifteen or more years. Something scary is happening, and we really have to do what we can to help ourselves out of this looming disaster.

Calling one another names and hurling muted abuse solves nothing; it only gives Jeremy a sore head. Nero never was a good violin player.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 08:42:48 am by Rob C »
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jeremyrh

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2018, 08:50:23 am »

My daughter and her doctor daughter have just left after spending a short holiday chez moi. This time, the heat got to them too; in past visits they did as the mad dogs and Englishmen are reputed to do, but not in 2018. My own compulsory walking routine has been turned on its head for the first time in fifteen or more years. Something scary is happening, and we really have to do what we can to help ourselves out of this looming disaster.


If this doesn't worry you, I don't know what ...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/02/climate-change-to-cause-humid-heatwaves-that-will-kill-even-healthy-people
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2018, 08:55:37 am »

However, that's just banter.  What I'm way more disturbed about, and is the reason I'm cancelling my subscription, is the dismissal of climate change as "politics".

Hi David,

Although I agree, one (unfortunately) also has to accept that politics have a lot to do with climate change. That makes it difficult to separate them in any meaningful discussion. That, combined with partisan politics (more involved with destroying prior achievements than improving upon them), makes it hard to have discussions where different sides of a view are willing to listen and base their reaction on logic and quality of argument/evidence, rather than dogma. Some even deny that there is an issue, rather than even listen to (let alone accept) the evidence.

So, I guess we should consider shooting more images of destroyed landscapes (which I find utterly uninspiring), time-lapses of retreating glaciers, and of displaced and emaciated animals, rather than of Luminous Landscapes.

And that won't be an easy task, mind you, because how does one e.g. image the disappearance of 90% of the King Penguin population on Possession Island:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antarctic-science/article/massive-decline-of-the-worlds-largest-king-penguin-colony-at-ile-aux-cochons-crozet/E254E3E24DE3BDC523B25FA3A3261584

Maybe just shoot a few nice pictures of the remaining ones we can remember them by?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. I've attached the original study about the King Penguin as a PDF, in case the link goes dead or disappears behind a pay-wall.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2018, 08:57:38 am »

If this doesn't worry you, I don't know what ...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/02/climate-change-to-cause-humid-heatwaves-that-will-kill-even-healthy-people

I'm afraid that the subject your post will be more frowned upon than the message it tells ...

Cheers,
Bart
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jeremyrh

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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2018, 09:36:36 am »

This is Lula in a nutshell:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/31/california-wildfire-climate-change-carr-fire

Perhaps your post is a little unfair to us and might better read: This is the attitude of some members in the Climate Change topic.

As has been pointed out above, it is the inability of some intemperate members on each side of a debate to sustain civil discourse. It is that inability that lead us to ban 'politics'.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2018, 09:48:02 am »

How are we going to cease political debates when one and the same side keeps posting provocative articles? Even in this thread about threads, one side keeps stating their case, but all hell breaks loose apparently only when the other side responds. It has not happened yet, because the other side so far shows patience and respect for the new rules, but it won’t take long.

Christopher Sanderson

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #76 on: August 01, 2018, 09:49:34 am »

How are we going to cease political debates when one and the same side keeps posting provocative articles? Even in this thread about threads, one side keeps stating their case, but all hell breaks loose apparently only when the other side responds. It has not happened yet, because the other so far shows patience and respect for the new rules, but it won’t take long.

Relatively simply Slobodan, offending posters will be banned, topics will be locked, edited or removed as seems fit by Jeremy.
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digitaldog

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2018, 10:14:27 am »

Even in this thread about threads, one side keeps stating their case, but all hell breaks loose apparently only when the other side responds.
Then:
Quote
It has not happened yet, because the other side so far shows patience and respect for the new rules, but it won’t take long.
? ? ? ?
 ::)
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amolitor

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2018, 10:21:50 am »

Banning "politics" is a policy I agree with, but yes, politics does not sit aside from the rest of the human condition,  separated by a neat wall. Climate change, without a doubt, falls into a grey area between, with tendrils reaches well into the political, as well as far into the photographic. So it goes.

Judgement will have to be used to determine what is an is not acceptable. I assume that Jeremy will be the sole arbiter of where that line is, and will use a system of quiet warnings followed as necessary by stronger measures to communicate where he sees that line falling. That is how it should be.

Honestly, I don't think it's going to be that hard. Look at what you have written, and imagine dropping the words "Koch", "Trump", "Obama", and "Emissions" from it. Does the text still make sense? You're probably OK posting it. If it turns into gibberish, you probably should edit it a bit.


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jeremyrh

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Re: New Article Just Published - The End Of Politics In The Coffee Corner
« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2018, 10:22:06 am »

How are we going to cease political debates when one and the same side keeps posting provocative articles? Even in this thread about threads, one side keeps stating their case,

Guilty as charged. However, the intent was not to prolong the discussion from Over There, but rather to highlight the importance of CC to us as landscape photographers who often visit the distant places affected rather than an abstract notion; and also to point out that there is no "debate", as such, because the real understanding comes from scientific research which few here are qualified to judge.
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