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Author Topic: The Great Mexican Wall  (Read 26992 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2018, 05:44:44 pm »

... If you look at how 'nations' have evolved to the present day you will of course note that there have been states that were quite heterogeneous in their ethnic make up.  Is this not true?  Look at Yugoslavia; it certainly was not ethnically homogeneous.  Same thing with USSR and the other examples I pointed out...

Another silly argument. The fact there are non-homogenous contraptions does not refute the fact that there are homogenous states, like French and German.

As for Yugoslavia, it was to a certain degree an artificial state in itself. Before its existence, there were interdependent nation-states (Serbia, Montenegro) and homogenous nations under Austro-Hungarian rule (Croatia, Slovenia). Guess what happened to Yugoslavia recently: it disintegrated along those nation-state lines. What happened to USSR? It disintegrated along nation-state lines.

What does it tell you? That nation-states and the sense of nationhood is stronger than "loftier" goals of globalism, based on "I pay taxes here, ergo it is my state."

Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2018, 05:46:16 pm »

Let's be historically accurate and note that the English colonization was not about establishing the Catholic religion or conquest either.  The Dutch were also non-Catholic colonizers albeit on a smaller scale.

Obviously not; they spent a lot of effort getting Rome out of the equation, changing "royalty" varieties along the way to achieving it. That admitted, it strikes me as odd that you suggest they were doing anything other than conquer, colonies being tough omelettes to make without the cracking of a few conquered eggs!

Why else did they get driven out of the USA, if not because they still wanted the revenue from all that effort?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 05:49:26 pm by Rob C »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2018, 05:50:39 pm »

Another silly argument. The fact there are non-homogenous contraptions does not refute the fact that there are homogenous states, like French and German.

As for Yugoslavia, it was to a certain degree an artificial state in itself. Before its existence, there were interdependent nation-states (Serbia, Montenegro) and homogenous nations under Austro-Hungarian rule (Croatia, Slovenia). Guess what happened to Yugoslavia recently: it disintegrated along those nation-state lines. What happened to USSR? It disintegrated along nation-state lines.

What does it tell you? That nation-states and the sense of nationhood is stronger than "loftier" goals of globalism, based on "I pay taxes here, ergo it is my state."
It tells me that you conveniently prove my point, heterogeneous multi-ethnic states were present in Europe for a long time and if one considers Spain with the Catalan and Basque populations still are.  On our recent trip to Barcelona one was struck by all the Catalan independence flags flying from the windows of countless apartments.  FYI, the Catalan language is separate from Spanish just as the Basque language is as well. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2018, 06:21:40 pm »

... FYI, the Catalan language is separate from Spanish...

 I noticed... I lived four years in Barcelona.

Chris Kern

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2018, 07:37:57 pm »

For what it's worth, I think Slobodan has the stronger historical argument—and one that is specifically relevant to this thread.

The nation-state is primarily a continental European concept, which derives from the sorting out of political boundaries after the religious wars of the 17th Century.  That's when the idea of conflating ethnicity (nation) and jurisdiction (state) became widely accepted as a defining principle in Europe.  Not necessarily elsewhere, although I think there are close analogues in Africa and parts of Asia (e.g., Japan and Thailand).

Americans, north, south, and central, have always been different.  The concept of "nation-state" never made sense here.  Although, admittedly, the term has recently been adopted by some right-wing populist commentators.

Even in the pre-Columbian era, while there were what we would today consider to be ethnic differences—tribal and linguistic—between the non-nomadic indigenous populations, as far as I am aware most of them never had anything resembling a modern theory of territorial boundaries.  And, unquestionably, after the Europeans arrived almost all the American colonies and countries that evolved in this hemisphere were multinational (i.e., multi-ethnic).

There was a brief period after the united states declared their independence from Great Britain (capitalization and emphasis intended) when arguably you could claim there was a correspondence between principal ethnicity (English and Scottish protestant) and political boundaries.  But only in some of the states.  Not in Maryland (founded as a Catholic colony), or New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania (with their large Dutch populations and, in Pennsylvania, a considerable Quaker minority), or in Vermont and New Hampshire (quite French in the northern parts of both states).  Not to mention the Amerindian populations, or the Africans, enslaved and free, or the Germans, Irish and other "foreigners" who started arriving in large numbers even before the adoption of the constitution of 1789.

Same thing in Latin America, where in most countries the mestizo population tends to be much larger than the "pure" descendants of the colonizing Castilians or the other European immigrants who arrived more recently.

As for borders, in North America they have traditionally been very porous.  My wife and I used to drive into Canada without being asked for any identification by the Canadian inspectors, and to return with no more documentation than our U.S. drivers' licenses.

I don't recall for certain, but I think we always took our passports with us when we visited border towns in Mexico.  But I have a very distinct memory of returning to the United States late one afternoon in Nogales, and being impressed by the rapidly-moving stream of Mexican day workers walking back in the other direction—almost all of them carrying bags filled with goods they had purchased at Walmart, Target, or CVS.  I rather doubt that all of their documentos were carefully checked when they returned for work the next morning.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:12:55 am by Chris Kern »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2018, 10:12:38 pm »

It is my custom not to respond to you but this time I do need to correct your misconception of what I said.  You did not carefully read what I quoted from Alan Klein's post so I will bold it for you, "The nations in Europe have been French, or German, or whatever for centuries.  The nations there are each homogenous to a large degree."  If you look at how 'nations' have evolved to the present day you will of course note that there have been states that were quite heterogeneous in their ethnic make up.  Is this not true?  Look at Yugoslavia; it certainly was not ethnically homogeneous.  Same thing with USSR and the other examples I pointed out.  Anyone intrepid enough to make good use of Internet maps and population dynamics can easily see that that these states were not homogeneous.

You're playing word games rather than trying to understand the thrust of my point.   That's the same thing people do with Trump. Suddenly people become English majors and professors. Slobodan got it right.  The point I'm making is that the people are one as a people.  Sure the national lines were drawn and re-drawn, or held together artificially like Tito did with Yugoslavia.   But there was no Yugoslav people.  It was a phony country.  There was no Soviet people.  There were Russians, and Georgians, and Ukrainians, etc.  And the French are French and the Germans German. (Were there East German people and West German people? )   

Which raises another interesting observation.  Are there South Korean people and North Korean people?  I don't think so.  They will be united one day just like Germany. 

Rand47

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2018, 10:36:48 pm »

Quote
. . . That's when the idea of conflating ethnicity (nation) and jurisdiction (state) became widely accepted as a defining principle in Europe.  Not necessarily elsewhere, although I think there are close analogues in Africa and parts of Asia (e.g., Japan and Thailand).
. . .

Let’s not forget the patitioning of the Middle East at the end of the war, where state boundaries were drawn by Europeans and others with little or no contemplation of the tribal group identity or the impacts of said boundaries, setting the statge for strife for the last 80 years.

Rand
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2018, 10:46:19 pm »

You're playing word games rather than trying to understand the thrust of my point.   That's the same thing people do with Trump. Suddenly people become English majors and professors. Slobodan got it right.  The point I'm making is that the people are one as a people.  Sure the national lines were drawn and re-drawn, or held together artificially like Tito did with Yugoslavia.   But there was no Yugoslav people.  It was a phony country.  There was no Soviet people.  There were Russians, and Georgians, and Ukrainians, etc.  And the French are French and the Germans German. (Were there East German people and West German people? )   

Which raises another interesting observation.  Are there South Korean people and North Korean people?  I don't think so.  They will be united one day just like Germany.

Surprisingly and contrary to general belief, once you separate a country and establish different rules and lifestyle in each part, after a generation or two, you'll end up with two different nations.

Let's take Germany as example. After being divided for 40 years, and united for 30 years, only half the population there thinks unity exists between the east and the west.
I wonder how (actually first IF) the Koreans will handle their re-unification.

Here is a five year old report on some of the German re-unification issues and many of the reported facts are still valid today.

Quote
Germany's unemployment rate made headlines when it hit a two-decade low this summer. But that rate is not evenly spread: former West German states still have far better employment levels than their eastern neighbors.

Demographic differences are not only the result of joblessness and income gaps. Most foreigners who live in Germany have chosen to settle in the western parts, and their arrival has decreased average ages. Several factors explain the significantly smaller foreign population in the east. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, western Germany invited many Turks to live in the country as guest workers. Many of them never left.

Furthermore, the climate is less friendly to foreigners in the east, according to a study by Leipzig University researchers who interviewed 16,000 Germans over 10 years. These findings coincide with a larger presence of right-wing neo-Nazi sympathizers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/10/31/the-berlin-wall-fell-25-years-ago-but-germany-is-still-divided/?utm_term=.b8dcbba20d2a
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:57:08 am by LesPalenik »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2018, 11:12:29 pm »

Surprisingly and contrary to general belief, once you separate a country and establish different rules and lifestyle in each part, after a generation or two, you'll end up with two different nations.

Let's take Germany as example. After being divided for 40 years, and united for 30 years, only half the population there thinks unity exists between the east and the west.
I wonder how (actually first IF) the Koreans will handle their re-unification.

Here is a five year old report on some of the German re-unification issues and many of the reported facts are still valid today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/10/31/the-berlin-wall-fell-25-years-ago-but-germany-is-still-divided/?utm_term=.b8dcbba20d2a

I can't access any more Washington Post articles without paying money.  They may not like Trump.  But they're just as greedy as him.

In any case, there's load of cultural and other differences between different parts of the US.  But we still think of ourselves as Americans.  So much the more so with Germans, Italians, etc.  I think language is the great emulsifier.  Which is why I want English as a single legal language in America.  Look at the problems with two languages in Canada.  Added to cultural differences, it almost broke up the country a few decades ago when Quebec province wanted their own country. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2018, 11:17:44 pm »

If any further proof is needed for nation-states, the old Latins would say: "Nomen est omnis," or "the name is [says] everything"

Scotland = the land of the Scots
Ireland = the land of the Irish
Serbia = the land of the Serbs
France= the land of the French
Germany (Deutschland) = the land of the Deutsche (Germans)

etc.

Which reminds me of the following joke:

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2018, 07:08:17 am »

I can't access any more Washington Post articles without paying money.  They may not like Trump.  But they're just as greedy as him.

What? Should everything be free? I thought you were a capitalist. :)
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Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2018, 07:11:59 am »

What? Should everything be free? I thought you were a capitalist. :)

I agree: we should have to pay them for the work that they do - makes sense. That said, passing links don't make it worthwhile to get involved in any long-term way. So I just give it a miss.

:-(

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2018, 07:35:55 am »

I agree: we should have to pay them for the work that they do - makes sense. That said, passing links don't make it worthwhile to get involved in any long-term way. So I just give it a miss.

:-(
The Washington Post as with many newspapers that have paywalls does permit access to a certain number of free 'reads' per month.  As I already noted on another thread, I think only The Guardian of all 'major' newspapers is totally free (they rely on donations to preserve this).
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2018, 07:45:03 am »

You're playing word games rather than trying to understand the thrust of my point.   That's the same thing people do with Trump. Suddenly people become English majors and professors. Slobodan got it right.  The point I'm making is that the people are one as a people.  Sure the national lines were drawn and re-drawn, or held together artificially like Tito did with Yugoslavia.   But there was no Yugoslav people.  It was a phony country.  There was no Soviet people.  There were Russians, and Georgians, and Ukrainians, etc.  And the French are French and the Germans German. (Were there East German people and West German people? )   
Yugoslavia was formed after WW I, well before Tito came onto the scene.  As Rand also notes, the modern Middle East was drawn up after WW I and it was done quite badly (David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace" is perhaps the definitive book on the topic and well worth reading).  I'm not trying to play word games, others who post on this Forum are far more adept at that than me, but only pointing out that the historical record argues otherwise.  Ultimately, religious and ethnic issues arise and cause great tragedies (I always recommend CV Wedgewood's masterful account of the Thirty Years War that tore apart central Europe in the 17th century as a good example).  IMO, The US is the only successful example of a multi-cultural nation that has withstood the test of time (so far).
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2018, 07:49:09 am »

The Washington Post as with many newspapers that have paywalls does permit access to a certain number of free 'reads' per month.  As I already noted on another thread, I think only The Guardian of all 'major' newspapers is totally free (they rely on donations to preserve this).

As an aside and off-topic, I find it interesting that we (royal we) were happy to spend a quarter (or a dollar) to read a newspaper every day but don't want to spend the same amount to read web sites. Might be something about having something tangible to hold in your hands, so that it "feels" like you actually bought something. Web sites may be too ephemeral. You pay for something that disappears, in a sense. Maybe if instead of buying the right to read something, if they instead downloaded pdfs that filled up disk space, people would feel as if they bought something "real". It's an odd situation because we pay for things that disappear all the time in other areas. When you go see a movie, you don't take the movie home with you. Anyway, sorry to interrupt the thread.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2018, 08:58:11 am »

Yugoslavia was formed after WW I, well before Tito came onto the scene.  As Rand also notes, the modern Middle East was drawn up after WW I and it was done quite badly (David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace" is perhaps the definitive book on the topic and well worth reading).  I'm not trying to play word games, others who post on this Forum are far more adept at that than me, but only pointing out that the historical record argues otherwise.  Ultimately, religious and ethnic issues arise and cause great tragedies (I always recommend CV Wedgewood's masterful account of the Thirty Years War that tore apart central Europe in the 17th century as a good example).  IMO, The US is the only successful example of a multi-cultural nation that has withstood the test of time (so far).

It doesn't matter if Yugoslavia was created before WWI or if it was held together by Tito after WWII.  It's a phony country made up of distinct peoples.  There is no single Yugoslav people. 

I agree with your point about the US.  That's why I'm against creating a second language, Spanish, as a lingua franca.  We're moving in that direction and it's very dangerous.  It would aggravate comity of the populace and create a situation similar to Canada's, maybe worse. 

LesPalenik

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2018, 09:04:55 am »

As an aside and off-topic, I find it interesting that we (royal we) were happy to spend a quarter (or a dollar) to read a newspaper every day but don't want to spend the same amount to read web sites. Might be something about having something tangible to hold in your hands, so that it "feels" like you actually bought something. Web sites may be too ephemeral. You pay for something that disappears, in a sense. Maybe if instead of buying the right to read something, if they instead downloaded pdfs that filled up disk space, people would feel as if they bought something "real". It's an odd situation because we pay for things that disappear all the time in other areas. When you go see a movie, you don't take the movie home with you. Anyway, sorry to interrupt the thread.

Actually, when you pay for online access, you can come back and read the articles as many times as you like. Unlike the real papers that end up in trash (or in a recycling bin). I remember the times, when the rural folks kept their outhouses stocked with the newspapers. You could read them first and then repurpose them. I recall Pravda which was rather thin.
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2018, 09:09:09 am »

It doesn't matter if Yugoslavia was created before WWI or if it was held together by Tito after WWII.  It's a phony country made up of distinct peoples.  There is no single Yugoslav people. 

I agree with your point about the US.  That's why I'm against creating a second language, Spanish, as a lingua franca.  We're moving in that direction and it's very dangerous.  It would aggravate comity of the populace and create a situation similar to Canada's, maybe worse.

No Yugoslav people, only Yugo cars.

As to the Spanish, that already exists in the US as a second language, although not officially.
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Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2018, 10:54:10 am »

No Yugoslav people, only Yugo cars.

As to the Spanish, that already exists in the US as a second language, although not officially.

These lingual "multis" bring little that's good.

Spain has its language problems with at least Catalan, which constantly pricks the sore on the Catalan area's nose. Mallorca has its own version  of Catalan, called Mallorquin and Ibiza, I believe, has yet another version. The official language of Spain is Castilian. I have never, in about thirty-seven years, come across anyone who doesn't handle the official language far better than do I. Yet, there is also another running sore in medicine: staff recruited from the Spanish mainland have to be able to cope with Catalan in order to be employed, or at least on equal terms (now the latest bright idea). How damned self-harming a regulation is that to an island that needs good medical staff? As far as I can make out, that demand isn't coming from local docs, but from politicians with an eye on the separist vote.

For me, it's the same dish of putrid fish in Britain, where dialects and opaque languages are "celebrated" as a good thing. Why? Isn't the purpose of language the facilitation of a clear understanding between people? Media has become messed up with regional accents that do anything but help understanding. For once, colour has been a positive: two black newsreader, Moira Stuart and Gillian Joseph have beautiful voices that are both clear and accurate and devoid of obvious regionalism. They fit their job perfectly.

Rob

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2018, 12:46:20 pm »

FYI, this is a link to an NPR Fresh Air podcast (about 40-45 min) consisting of an interview with a reporter who has been covering events on the Mexican border, especially those to do with the separation of those kids from their parents. The reporter gives a summary of the various things that can happen to people trying to cross the border, and how difficult it is for the various agencies to bring kids back together with their parents just from the logistics point of view. The situation is multi-faceted. Daily headlines and the present discussion do not make the situation very clear.

http://freshairnpr.npr.libsynfusion.com/the-ongoing-crisis-at-the-border

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