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Author Topic: The Great Mexican Wall  (Read 7119 times)

Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2018, 09:46:40 AM »

Robert:

"Being highly educated is but one aspect, and it is not correlated with being honest, decent, fair, etc. You place too much emphasis on it."

But then neither does the lack of education naturally endow those attributes; when held by either demographic sub-set, often, they can actually come to represent part of a problem best solved via pragmatism and an understanding of what actually works, rather than what should work in some idyllic, politically correct situation or, rather, manner.

Further, I hate the way that "fair" has wormed its way into political life. It is not a natural state of being, any more than is happiness. Both are artificial concepts that founder on the rocks of reality and unequal abilities. Selling voters the idea that they are all equal is the fib that gives birth to the unavoidable conflict with reality and its total lack of interest in the runts of the race. Were that not true, I would have displaced Avedon decades ago. The heart was always willing, even if the skills never quite there!

;-)

RSL

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2018, 09:57:08 AM »

Well said, Rob. It's something that seems to be less understood as time goes by.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2018, 11:36:09 AM »

The US Constitution once allowed voting to be restricted to property-holding white men.   I think the fact they wanted only property owners to vote went to their distrust of the "common man".  Since people vote their pocketbooks, they were worried that people would move the country where property would be distributed from those who had to those who didn't have.  That's exactly what's happening. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2018, 11:44:45 AM »

...The country belongs to whoever is living in it at the time.

Hence the wall.

jeremyrh

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2018, 12:15:52 PM »

The US Constitution once allowed voting to be restricted to property-holding white men.   I think the fact they wanted only property owners to vote went to their distrust of the "common man".  Since people vote their pocketbooks, they were worried that people would move the country where property would be distributed from those who had to those who didn't have.  That's exactly what's happening.

Luckily a solution has been found and ignorant rednecks have been convinced to vote for someone who acts only for the property owners, so now everyone is happy.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2018, 12:25:36 PM »

Luckily a solution has been found and ignorant rednecks have been convinced to vote for someone who acts only for the property owners, so now everyone is happy.

First, "ignorant rednecks" is an ad hominin attack not appreciate by me and particularly the moderators as its a personal attack on me and other Trump supporters.  In any case, voting for someone who's not interested in redistribution of wealth, but relies on law to protect people's wealth, is not just appreciated by land owners, but by Americans in general. Capitalism, not Socialism,  made America a great and wealthy nation.     

jeremyrh

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2018, 12:31:54 PM »

First, "ignorant rednecks" is an ad hominin attack not appreciate by me and particularly the moderators as its a personal attack on me and other Trump supporters.  In any case, voting for someone who's not interested in redistribution of wealth, but relies on law to protect people's wealth, is not just appreciated by land owners, but by Americans in general. Capitalism, not Socialism,  made America a great and wealthy nation.   

Je repose ma valise.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2018, 01:17:34 PM »

... Capitalism, not Socialism,  made America a great and wealthy nation.     

It is amazing to me just how easily the younger generation (and certain other demographics) has fallen for the idea of socialism, while having absolutely no clue what it actually is.

degrub

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2018, 01:21:24 PM »

they will have their work cut out for them to afford us for the next 30 years.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2018, 01:26:22 PM »

Hence the wall.

Countries have the right, and the duty, to control who they let in. I have never stated otherwise, and I don't recall any others stating it either, although people have been vilified as if they had. This is what is basically normal now in online discussions, I find. Hyperbolic misrepresentations of what others say, when they disagree with you, is now par for the course.

It is the very essence of tribal-based "debate".

Today's Dilbert cartoon (http://dilbert.com/strip/2018-07-08) illustrates this well.

My own gut feeling is that the wall, assuming it's actually ever built, will be about as successful as the "war on drugs". I would have thought that conservatives would want to be more careful with large expenditures of tax monies of this nature, but sometimes it seems as if the security industry is immune from scrutiny. I'm not saying that the wall would not be partly effective, I'm sure it will stop the low-hanging fruit very well. Even the war on drugs made many street-level arrests. If that's ok with you, well, it's your money. I'm just saying that a little more thought might yield better results, assuming you want results and not theatre.

This all depends on your point of view of course. The security industry probably thinks that the war on drugs is fantastic as it allows them to feed at the public trough to their heart's content. I imagine that brick and concrete lobbiests and contractors are wetting themselves at the prospect of a long wall.

Trump's "muslim ban" is an interesting case in point. If I understand it properly (and I'm not certain that I do, it has undergone some changes and I don't follow them daily), it really only explicitly restricts entry from some countries and not members of a specific religion. But according to the Wiki entry on the subject, Saudi Arabia is not on that list. That's kind of an interesting omission, given where the 9/11 terrorists came from.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2018, 01:29:51 PM »

It is amazing to me just how easily the younger generation (and certain other demographics) has fallen for the idea of socialism, while having absolutely no clue what it actually is.

None of us reading these pages have ever lived in anything other than a mixed economy. You're not trying to instigate another "red scare", are you?

And who says that the younger generation IS falling for it?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2018, 01:56:20 PM »

Countries have the right, and the duty, to control who they let in. I have never stated otherwise, and I don't recall any others stating it either, although people have been vilified as if they had....

If by "any others" you mean members of this forum, you are probably right. However, we are not only addressing members of this forum in our debates, but larger societal themes as well. In that context, there certainly are calls for open borders, no ICE, no wall, etc.

As for the wall, I use it in a broader meaning. I don't care if it is concrete, or legislative, or policy, as long as it stops, or slows down illegals. I agree that it is probably not the most financially effective solution. My own would be a $1 million fine per illegally employed.

By the way, the following illustration fits within your ideas of "no nations"  (i.e., no nation states) as well, unless I am misunderstanding your position:

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2018, 02:17:59 PM »

If by "any others" you mean members of this forum, you are probably right. However, we are not only addressing members of this forum in our debates, but larger societal themes as well. In that context, there certainly are calls for open borders, no ICE, no wall, etc.

As for the wall, I use it in a broader meaning. I don't care if it is concrete, or legislative, or policy, as long as it stops, or slows down illegals. I agree that it is probably not the most financially effective solution. My own would be a $1 million fine per illegally employed.

By the way, the following illustration fits within your ideas of "no nations"  (i.e., no nation states) as well, unless I am misunderstanding your position:

Fair enough about your "broader wall" comment. A broader outlook makes sense. But a broader outlook might also include some analysis of the need for some of that immigrant labour. Going by what others have stated on these pages, there's a lot of it, so it must be economically important.

As for wild demands that people make, what else is new and how important is it in the scheme of things? Shall we waste our time quoting white supremacist group web sites too? I regard that as part of the general polarization, people make wild-ass crazy statements all the time.
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Robert robertroaldi.zenfolio.com

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2018, 02:24:06 PM »


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-chapman-young-socialism-capitalism-20180520-story.html

https://www.aier.org/article/over-half-millennials-identify-socialist-heres-how-change-their-minds

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/05/17/economy/millennials-socialism-isnt-dirty-word-it-was-other-generations

How many young people are members of young Republicans, or belong to Libertarian groups, or militia groups for that matter? When has there NOT been a great diversity of opinion?

And anyway, discussions of "socialism" are nearly meaningless in this context. What each of us means by it is probably so wildly different, the conversation has no meaning. In another thread, Russ (I think) once referred to the Stalinist economy of California. What?  To proceed with any hope of making any sense, would require some common definitions and basic agreement to terms. I am not particularly interested in this on these pages, even if it weren't summer. It has been done before by more knowledgeable and erudite people than us. I am sure we can go read some books.
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Rand47

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2018, 04:46:59 PM »

Actually, the we don't need to have immigrants come into the US (legal or illegal) since white America is doing a fine job of killing itself off all by themselves...

Fewer Births Than Deaths Among Whites in Majority of U.S. States

In addition to an aging white population with declining birth rate, the mortality rates have shot up due to drug overdoses, alcoholism and suicides in the white population–particularly in rural areas of the country.

So, ya see, all ya gotta do is wait...

Jeff,

Absolutely correct.  We (the waspy US in particular and the “west” in general) bought into the progressive notion that overpopulation was going to destroy the planet, and spent a couple of generations preaching this to our kids in the public school system (sound familiar?). Turned out to just be cultural suicide.

 It will be “fun” to see what the current progressive notions-da-jour will bring in the next couple of generations.  Suffice to say I’m not optimistic.

When you add in the complete polarization in political thought, it is sure to speed things along nicely.  One of President Obama’s achievements was advancing the notion that American exceptionalism was a really bad thing.  He’s succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.  There are other cultures with very firm exceptionalist worldviews just waiting to fill the vacuum. 

Rand
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 05:04:41 PM by Rand47 »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2018, 05:10:08 PM »

The nations in Europe have been French, or German, or whatever for centuries.  The nations there are each homogenous to a large degree. 
This is in fact untrue as anyone who has studied the history of the Balkans, Poland, and The Holy Roman Empire will know.  Germany did not become a country until 1866, Italy somewhat later, and poor Poland was constantly appearing and disappearing as a country.  I'll say nothing about the USSR other than it certainly was not homogeneous.  Some of the countries became homogeneous by taking harsh action against those who were living there, Spain and Portugal being classic examples.  Whether Britain could be classified as homogeneous is open to debate given the various ethno-religious groups.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2018, 05:13:53 PM »


3.  Five hundred years is a helluva long time! Importantly, you must not forget that the people to whom you refer came over with superior weaponry. As with all of the Americas, from Spanish times, it was about conquest and the establishing of the Catholic religion often, itself, no more than a ruse for the amassing of wealth for the so-called religious kings and queens. Exploitation, theft.
Let's be historically accurate and note that the English colonization was not about establishing the Catholic religion or conquest either.  The Dutch were also non-Catholic colonizers albeit on a smaller scale.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2018, 05:18:01 PM »

This is in fact untrue...

Seriously!?

Serbs are homogenous, just as Croats, Bulgarians, Slovenes, etc. Whether and when they got a state is irrelevant. Germans are homogenous with or without the state, just as Poles are.

As for the USSR, nobody claimed it was homogenous. But Russians certainly are.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2018, 05:27:17 PM »

Seriously!?

Serbs are homogenous, just as Croats, Bulgarians, Slovenes, etc. Whether and when they got a state is irrelevant. Germans are homogenous with or without the state, just as Poles are.

As for the USSR, nobody claimed it was homogenous. But Russians certainly are.
It is my custom not to respond to you but this time I do need to correct your misconception of what I said.  You did not carefully read what I quoted from Alan Klein's post so I will bold it for you, "The nations in Europe have been French, or German, or whatever for centuries.  The nations there are each homogenous to a large degree."  If you look at how 'nations' have evolved to the present day you will of course note that there have been states that were quite heterogeneous in their ethnic make up.  Is this not true?  Look at Yugoslavia; it certainly was not ethnically homogeneous.  Same thing with USSR and the other examples I pointed out.  Anyone intrepid enough to make good use of Internet maps and population dynamics can easily see that that these states were not homogeneous.
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