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Author Topic: The Great Mexican Wall  (Read 7117 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #180 on: July 12, 2018, 06:48:52 AM »

The expectations of coming legalization of pot in Canada are getting ridiculous. Scores of people (mainly women, most likely because men who were interested in the stuff were not deterred so much by the previous ban) are already planning marijuana parties, and getting high on October 17, when it becomes legal. Media are full with promises of fantastic business opportunities.
Once the pot growing becomes an indispensable feature of Canada's economy, Canada will able to compete with Afghanistan in growing the production and markets for this very desired commodity.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-cannabis-greenrush-1.4383010

My guess is that growing pot and making other drugs is already a large part of every country's economy and has been for decades. A black market part of the economy, of course.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #181 on: July 12, 2018, 06:50:50 AM »

You are missing or sidestepping my point: it's about the will to beat the problem.

The makers are just one fraction of the whole: the people who run the rings, import, make stuff locally, distribute, they are the problem within the domestic part of the situation. And they are the people who can be dealt with locally. Of course drugs could be kept out of prisons: just as you can keep dangerous materials off aircraft you can prevent them getting into jails. The missing link is the will to do it. That, and penalties to match the consequences of the crimes. Less attention to the "rights" of inmates and a concentration on keeping drugs out of reach would be a start.

The huge profits are only there because the risks are worth taking because the chances of the capos being nabbed are very low. Why? I doubt it's because the police don't have the technology or resources to find them; I think it is because they are kept immune from authority. And where you have a society of dimwits ready and willing to abuse themselves with substances that will probably ruin their lives, it is pointless depending on them to provide solutions. The best you can do is catch them early: toss them out of school or university if that's where they do their thing; let their friends realise it is not fun and games, that it all comes at life-changing price. Set example of consequence.

As for the bootleggers: they hardly kept low profiles. They were popular characters, criminal stars, even. Their immunity was even more obvious than that of today's lot.

A start could be made by investigating the funding of some of those wonderful palaces that grace the Intracoastal Waterway; the funding of some of the larger yachts all over the Mediterranean; yacht clubs have waiting lists, and the last time I heard, the local one wants about €23,000 to join and you still won't get a berth to buy. Wonder about those folks who can buy multi-million pound apartments in Monaco and London, and on and on. By no means do I suggest they are all crooks, but you would be very unlucky not to unearth one if you looked in the right place. As I say, it's a matter of will.

The profits in drug sales are high because they're illegal.

There is no WILL on anyone's part to get rid of drugs. Never have been.  It's not a supply-side problem. People everywhere want to BUY drugs.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #182 on: July 12, 2018, 06:53:23 AM »

If it's not safer, I don't  want to legalize a substance that will add more carnage on the roads where me and my family drives.   I'm for others freedoms.  But not when their freedom puts me at risk I rather not take.  I have my freedoms as well.

I don't think it is logically consistent to believe what you believe without wanting alcohol prohibited. Alcohol has been involved in (rough average) 50% of all traffic accidents for decades.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #183 on: July 12, 2018, 07:14:43 AM »

You are missing or sidestepping my point: it's about the will to beat the problem.

The makers are just one fraction of the whole: the people who run the rings, import, make stuff locally, distribute, they are the problem within the domestic part of the situation. And they are the people who can be dealt with locally. Of course drugs could be kept out of prisons: just as you can keep dangerous materials off aircraft you can prevent them getting into jails. The missing link is the will to do it. That, and penalties to match the consequences of the crimes. Less attention to the "rights" of inmates and a concentration on keeping drugs out of reach would be a start.

The huge profits are only there because the risks are worth taking because the chances of the capos being nabbed are very low. Why? I doubt it's because the police don't have the technology or resources to find them; I think it is because they are kept immune from authority. And where you have a society of dimwits ready and willing to abuse themselves with substances that will probably ruin their lives, it is pointless depending on them to provide solutions. The best you can do is catch them early: toss them out of school or university if that's where they do their thing; let their friends realise it is not fun and games, that it all comes at life-changing price. Set example of consequence.

As for the bootleggers: they hardly kept low profiles. They were popular characters, criminal stars, even. Their immunity was even more obvious than that of today's lot.

A start could be made by investigating the funding of some of those wonderful palaces that grace the Intracoastal Waterway; the funding of some of the larger yachts all over the Mediterranean; yacht clubs have waiting lists, and the last time I heard, the local one wants about €23,000 to join and you still won't get a berth to buy. Wonder about those folks who can buy multi-million pound apartments in Monaco and London, and on and on. By no means do I suggest they are all crooks, but you would be very unlucky not to unearth one if you looked in the right place. As I say, it's a matter of will.

The problem Rob is that people want drugs - cannabis, alcohol, nicotine etc.  Any of those in excess is a problem we all agree.  Making them illegal will not stick will it?  There are more pressing laws to enforce than a ban on alcohol or cannabis use.  And I link the drugs deliberately together, in spite of the fact one is illegal and the other is not.  For example, just substitute your word 'substances' above for alcohol and you will see how pointless would be the threat of tossing them out of school or university.  Many people smoking pot (I don't - never even tried a cigarette) carry on a perfectly normal life - like users of alcohol.

Jim
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Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #184 on: July 12, 2018, 08:45:38 AM »

Alcohol seems only to be a problem when people are either very young, are experimenting with stretching their wings and underpants, or with those older ones who become alcoholics and have a hard time for the rest of their lives, even if they manage to stay off the drinks. Mostly, I think alcohol remains a kind of social lubricant that removes some self-consciousness but, unfortunately, often a lot more than that. It does improve a good meal, though.

More strongly enforced traffic checks in the U.K. have reduced the drunk driver element somewhat, and appear to have affected pub turnover in some areas. No bad thing.

Pot may or may not be "harmless" and may even have some genuine medical uses - I don't pretend to know. On the other hand, the medical value of self-administered cocaine, heroin etc. entirely evades me as does the reason why anybody of sane mind would feel the urge to use it. Recreational; if ever there was a misnomer, that's got to be it!

Whether or nor making drugs legal is a money-spinner for the government is another matter, and to me, seems one of the more cynical ideas any government has put forward. I suppose they will claim it's wonderful news for the health service, which will then receive so many millions per week extra... there is precedent, as all Brits know only too well.

Yes, I am aware that many people want drugs. Many also want to screw their neighbour's wife and/or daughters (or sons, I dare say). Is that sound cause to say, you know what, let's do it!

There are all sorts of unsavoury appetites in this world; their existence is no reason for making the satisfaction of same legally available.

I suppose I can't express this clearly enough to make my point, so I might as well say nothing more.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #185 on: July 12, 2018, 11:00:05 AM »

... Of course drugs could be kept out of prisons: just as you can keep dangerous materials off aircraft you can prevent them getting into jails...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/6/tsa-failed-detect-95-percent-prohibited-items-minn/

EDIT: as the title of the link says, 95% of prohibited items got past TSA screeners in secret government tests. Since Rob used the TSA analogy to argue that drugs can be kept out of prison if only there is a will, my link proves how difficult it is to enforce something even when there is an unquestionable will (to stop arms and explosives on the plane).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 02:57:33 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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James Clark

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #186 on: July 12, 2018, 11:10:55 AM »

So either:
A: The increase in accidents were caused because the drivers were in fact high at the time the accidents occurred.
or
B. That the 44% of drivers who died and were tested had positive results for drugs weren't high.  It's just that these drivers who died were people who use THC but must be worse drivers than people who don't use THC. What else could account for the high 44%?

I'll go with selection A.

The only factual conclusion you can draw is that more people used MJ in the last three months than they did before it was legalized.  Let me put it this way - If bananas had perviously been unavailable in Colorado, but then someone started importing bananas, suddenly finding bananas in many more accident victims wouldn't necessarily mean that banana eating was causing accidents, assuming that one can detect banana eating up to three months after ingesting said banana.

Personally, I tend to agree with you that driving while under the influence of anything is bad news, and I wouldn't;be surprised at all to find that MJ had led directly to some x% of traffic accidents.  Butt hen you have the every real issue of policing *anything* that causes a decrease in driving awareness, and I suspect - I don't know but I suspect - that there are other legal actions that could be equally dangerous, lack of sleep being top amongst them.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #187 on: July 12, 2018, 12:23:53 PM »

The expectations of coming legalization of pot in Canada are getting ridiculous. Scores of people (mainly women, most likely because men who were interested in the stuff were not deterred so much by the previous ban) are already planning marijuana parties, and getting high on October 17, when it becomes legal. Media are full with promises of fantastic business opportunities.
Once the pot growing becomes an indispensable feature of Canada's economy, Canada will able to compete with Afghanistan in growing the production and markets for this very desired commodity.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-cannabis-greenrush-1.4383010

What good is the extra money if you create another lost generation?  Thousands of additional people are going to be condemned to addiction.  Thousands more are going to die or get maimed in car accidents including people who don't use the drug.  What's the financial cost to society to rehabilitate both emotionally and financially. 

This remind me of when NY started Off-Track Betting (OTB) to stop illegal betting.  They were going to take all the profits and use for schools.  Well, the money wound up being used for other things.  Then OTB went bankrupt and the government shut it down.  Can you imagine losing money in gambling when you're the house? 

Actually I'm glad Canada and Colorado and a few other states are legalizing it.  We'll see soon enough the damage it creates.  Hopefully the rest of the country will decide against it before everyone jumps on board. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #188 on: July 12, 2018, 12:27:21 PM »

I don't think it is logically consistent to believe what you believe without wanting alcohol prohibited. Alcohol has been involved in (rough average) 50% of all traffic accidents for decades.

Agreed.  But America went down that path with Prohibition and reversed course.  It won;t go down that path again.  However, just because we have carnage on the roads because of alcohol doesn't mean we should foolishly add another drug and increase the carnage.

Rob C

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #189 on: July 12, 2018, 12:41:08 PM »

Agreed.  But America went down that path with Prohibition and reversed course.  It won;t go down that path again.  However, just because we have carnage on the roads because of alcohol doesn't mean we should foolishly add another drug and increase the carnage.

+1

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #190 on: July 12, 2018, 12:43:30 PM »

The only factual conclusion you can draw is that more people used MJ in the last three months than they did before it was legalized.  Let me put it this way - If bananas had perviously been unavailable in Colorado, but then someone started importing bananas, suddenly finding bananas in many more accident victims wouldn't necessarily mean that banana eating was causing accidents, assuming that one can detect banana eating up to three months after ingesting said banana.

A smaller number than 44% of the public uses MJ in Colorado.  So how could 44% of the traffic accident victims have marijuana in their bloodstream and then claim that MJ was not responsible for their accidents?

Quote
Personally, I tend to agree with you that driving while under the influence of anything is bad news, and I wouldn't;be surprised at all to find that MJ had led directly to some x% of traffic accidents.  Butt hen you have the every real issue of policing *anything* that causes a decrease in driving awareness, and I suspect - I don't know but I suspect - that there are other legal actions that could be equally dangerous, lack of sleep being top amongst them.

Well there are laws against use of cell phones, texting, etc.  Don't know how you would monitor people not getting enough rest.  There's even laws against driving while under the influence of MJ.  But that's all beside the point.  Legalization will increase death and mayhem on the roads.  I don't want to risk my family any more than is necessary while driving so I am against legalization. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #191 on: July 12, 2018, 12:51:24 PM »

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/6/tsa-failed-detect-95-percent-prohibited-items-minn/
No one cares if prisoners are using drugs and we can't intercept the drugs beforehand.  After all.  They're in jail.  :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #192 on: July 12, 2018, 01:24:10 PM »

...If bananas had perviously been unavailable in Colorado, but then someone started importing bananas, suddenly finding bananas in many more accident victims wouldn't necessarily mean that banana eating was causing accidents...

Wrong analogy, James. In contrast to your banana example, marijuana WAS available in CO prior to being legalized. What remains unknown is how the legalization affected the number of users. Did all of a sudden many more people start using it, which never used it before? Maybe. All I know is that, if it is legalized in Florida, I would not use it anyway.

The 44% stats are rather unreliable. The article states that "in 2016, nearly half of all fatally injured drivers weren’t tested for drugs." Do we know the percentage for 2006? What often happens with stats is not that there are more occurrences of something (crime, rape, accidents), but that there is a changing societal attitude toward reporting or measuring those occurrences.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #193 on: July 12, 2018, 01:37:37 PM »

Wrong analogy, James. In contrast to your banana example, marijuana WAS available in CO prior to being legalized. What remains unknown is how the legalization affected the number of users. Did all of a sudden many more people start using it, which never used it before? Maybe. All I know is that, if it is legalized in Florida, I would not use it anyway.

The 44% stats are rather unreliable. The article states that "in 2016, nearly half of all fatally injured drivers weren’t tested for drugs." Do we know the percentage for 2006? What often happens with stats is not that there are more occurrences of something (crime, rape, accidents), but that there is a changing societal attitude toward reporting or measuring those occurrences.

The 44% figure is pretty impressive regardless if they were only from illegal drugs and even if half the fatalities weren't tested.  We have to assume that if there were tests on all fatalities, the 44% figure would hold.  It's scary to think that 44% of fatalities had use MJ when we know that no where near that number of the whole population actually use MJ. 

I just checked alcohol related deaths which are at 28% found with alcohol in their bloodstream.  So the numbers any way you look at them are dire when you consider how much carnage is caused by drugs and alcohol.
"In 2016, 10,497 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for 28% of all traffic-related deaths in the United States."
https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

James Clark

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #194 on: July 12, 2018, 02:45:07 PM »

Wrong analogy, James. In contrast to your banana example, marijuana WAS available in CO prior to being legalized. What remains unknown is how the legalization affected the number of users. Did all of a sudden many more people start using it, which never used it before? Maybe. All I know is that, if it is legalized in Florida, I would not use it anyway.

The 44% stats are rather unreliable. The article states that "in 2016, nearly half of all fatally injured drivers weren’t tested for drugs." Do we know the percentage for 2006? What often happens with stats is not that there are more occurrences of something (crime, rape, accidents), but that there is a changing societal attitude toward reporting or measuring those occurrences.

For sure - we're 100% in agreement.  Point remains - we actually can't derive Alan's doomsday scenario and anti-legalization conclusion from what we know.  That said, I think common sense tells us that more and simpler access to "imparing" substances will lead to more impaired drivers (even though though many of us could probably cite numerous examples of something that's seemingly "common sense" that doesn't actually hold up under study.)

What I do find interesting is that Alan, one of the less nuanced participants in these political discussions, is unreservedly in favor of governmental intrusion into private choices when he fears that another citizen might make a bad choice that effects him in a negative manner. Something to ponder ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 04:08:18 PM by James Clark »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #195 on: July 12, 2018, 06:13:20 PM »

Back to trust in news... came across this. Hard to blame Trump for European, and especially UK, distrust in their own media though.

Source: LinkedIn

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #196 on: July 12, 2018, 08:04:46 PM »

For sure - we're 100% in agreement.  Point remains - we actually can't derive Alan's doomsday scenario and anti-legalization conclusion from what we know.  That said, I think common sense tells us that more and simpler access to "imparing" substances will lead to more impaired drivers (even though though many of us could probably cite numerous examples of something that's seemingly "common sense" that doesn't actually hold up under study.)

What I do find interesting is that Alan, one of the less nuanced participants in these political discussions, is unreservedly in favor of governmental intrusion into private choices when he fears that another citizen might make a bad choice that effects him in a negative manner. Something to ponder ;)

I'm in favor of personal freedoms, Jim.  I just feel in this case that the potential harm to me and my family is not acceptable. If someone wants to hike a dangerous trail like I saw in April in Zion Canyon (Angels' Landing), the rangers allow them too even though many are inexperienced novices and young to boot.  Many get killed over the years. But I won't be hurt if they do.  But drivers under the influence of drugs and alcohol put me at risk I don't find acceptable.


I understand that every law and rule and regulation the government issues, takes away someone's freedom.  It's why I'm generally opposed to laws.  But I also understand that we can't live as a society without rules.  I suppose it's where you want to draw the line. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #197 on: July 12, 2018, 08:08:50 PM »

Angel's Landing hike,  Zion National Park, Utah, USA
Just watching it gives me agita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy6K0KoMrco

Alan Klein

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2018, 08:25:20 PM »

Angel's Landing hike,  Zion National Park, Utah, USA
Just watching it gives me agita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy6K0KoMrco

This straight down view will make your teeth ache.  Kids are doing this.  I didn't realize that it was this tough and risky until I saw the videos when I got home.  If I was in better shape, I might have tried it myself.  That's what makes it dangerous to the inexperienced.  You assume the park's people won't allow dangerous hikes like this.  But they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpmuakyEWpo

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Great Mexican Wall
« Reply #199 on: July 12, 2018, 08:29:27 PM »

Good thing, Alan, you can only make a mistake (misstep?) once ;)
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