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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 79227 times)

scooby70

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #600 on: August 24, 2018, 06:45:53 am »

I actually own a Sony A7RII. to me, it's an electronic toy designed and engineered by an electronics company. I haven't handled a Z7 yet, but my expectation is that the experience of using it will be far more satisfying.

You missed out the bit about Sony making Playstations and DVD players.

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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #601 on: August 24, 2018, 07:07:12 am »

... but I don't see how their failure to do so with the 105mm f1.4 is a valid confirmation that their marketing claims cannot be trusted.

It's further down the blog post ...

Quote
This view also exposes Nikonís ongoing creative marketing. Many of you probably think the designation of SWM on this lens, which stands for Silent Wave Motor, means you get an expensive ring ultrasonic motor. Not so much. Thatís the focusing motor there with the green band around it. Fanboys are going to scream that Iím splitting hairs trashing Nikonís marketing about SWM, since this is technically an ultrasonic motor (although other manufacturers have the decency to call them micro-ultrasonic to differentiate them from ring-ultrasonic). Letís look at a screen grab from the Nikon page for the 105mm f/1.4E ED AF-S lens:

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-105mm-f%252f1.4e-ed.html
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-105mm-f%252f1.4e-ed.html

Note Nikonís text says ďĖrather than a gear systemĖto focus the lensĒ. If you look at the motor, what do you see? Correct. A gear system to focus the lens. The lens still focuses just fine and while itís not silent, it is very quiet. But please donít tell me itís ďbetter than a lens with a gear systemĒ when it has a gear system, OK? Yíall must think nobodyís ever going to open up your lenses and see youíre blowing smoke up our internet.

IIRC, Nikon moderated/changed their publicity shortly afterwards.

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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #602 on: August 24, 2018, 07:15:46 am »

You missed out the bit about Sony making Playstations and DVD players.

That's right. Someone makes an informed but negative comment about a Sony camera and it needs to be dismissed as the ravings of an anti-Sony troll. Well done.

shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #603 on: August 24, 2018, 08:01:29 am »

I have provided you with a list of 15~20 reasons a few posts above. Many of which you have been using for months to convince us about the superiority of the a7rIII.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Obviously, all those advantages are contingent on using the proper native lenses for the mount. That goes for both Sony and Nikon. If you're going to kill your AF by using adapted lenses,  you may as well stick with SLR, keeping the native AF performance when you need it and using Live View with manual focus to get the mirrorless advantages when you need them.

Also, one of the most useful features of mirrorless is eye focus. Nikon doesn't have it anyway, so you're not losing out by sticking with SLR.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #604 on: August 24, 2018, 08:22:08 am »

Obviously, all those advantages are contingent on using the proper native lenses for the mount. That goes for both Sony and Nikon. If you're going to kill your AF by using adapted lenses,  you may as well stick with SLR, keeping the native AF performance when you need it and using Live View with manual focus to get the mirrorless advantages when you need them.

Also, one of the most useful features of mirrorless is eye focus. Nikon doesn't have it anyway, so you're not losing out by sticking with SLR.

Do you even know who you are trying to convince of what my friend?



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 08:37:55 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #605 on: August 24, 2018, 08:25:52 am »

Someone makes an informed but negative comment about a Sony camera ...

By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

-
Edit: /jesting less anyone takes this seriously ..
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 08:29:53 am by Manoli »
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davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #606 on: August 24, 2018, 08:36:24 am »

OK fine, but nobody knows what kind of agreement there is between Sony and Nikon and how they crossed shared IP.

So I don't find this that relevant in terms of determining the potential of the Z6/Z7 of future iterations of the Z.

Cheers,
Bernard

In that we agree Bernard :)

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #607 on: August 24, 2018, 08:39:08 am »

Own a lot of F-mount lenses? What's the incentive for moving to Z-mount now, as opposed to sticking with D850/D5, allowing your lenses to age out/break/get stolen instead of buying more, and choosing a new system in 5-10 years time based on the situation then?

I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #608 on: August 24, 2018, 08:39:11 am »

By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

Love it! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

jeremyrh

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #609 on: August 24, 2018, 08:48:04 am »

The goalposts seem to be shifting here. We've been told that mirrorless is where it's at, and absolutely essential for making halfway decent images and that Nikon and Canon are hopelessly left behind and Nikon users are flocking to Sony. Overnight that unassailable lead in technology has disappeared, Nikon users have no incentive to switch to Sony, but we are told that in any case there's no interest in swapping your Nikon DSLR for mirrorless.

So what was all the fuss about anyway?
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #610 on: August 24, 2018, 08:57:58 am »

I think if you are looking for a new system as I was then mirrorless is a good option but if you think you need to move in order to improve your photography then you must be either desperate, new to photography or incurablely optimistic. I like mirrorless but doubt that it makes me a better photographer

I think Iím doing my best work ever at the moment but there are reasons for that other than mirrorless technology.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #611 on: August 24, 2018, 09:14:52 am »

I think if you are looking for a new system as I was then mirrorless is a good option but if you think you need to move in order to improve your photography then you must be either desperate, new to photography or incurablely optimistic. I like mirrorless but doubt that it makes me a better photographer

In fact this isnít about mirrorless. The purchase of any new piece of equipment, from a sandbag to a MFDB can be questionned similarly.

And the answer will differ from person to person, from month to month,...

I believe that some pieces of equipment help improve the technical excellence of photographs, other can help creativity in various ways (slowing down or going faster, challenging new variables,...), others help with productivity, others help with the way we are perceived and that can build confidence for personnallities in need of external validation,...

How a switch from a DSLR to a mirrorless camera fits into this picture is a complex question worth an essay I could see myself writing.

I think Iím doing my best work ever at the moment but there are reasons for that other than mirrorless technology.

I certainly hope that most photographers can state the same while being honnest.

Cheers,
Bernard

D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #612 on: August 24, 2018, 09:59:55 am »

I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.

This is of much interest to me. And the performance reports for video AF, combined with the ability to output 10-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed LOG video could make it the best full-frame video camera available under $20,000. Make a dumb PL mount and you have a massive number of MF lenses added to the Nikkor AF and MF choices. BUT... and itís a massive but, the video battery life is worrying.

We use small cameras like these for their size and weight and ability to work in situations where larger cameras are difficult. Gimbals, car interiors, hike-in locations, etc. If the battery life is what Nikonís specs say it is, 10-15 minutes of movie recording, it renders the cameras unusable without external power. And that is a very big strike against them for any serious video use. It defeats the very reasons we would choose it.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #613 on: August 24, 2018, 10:27:10 am »

Maybe. It sucks even more to be a lousy photographer with any of those camera systems.


Ain't that the truth!

I believe that high-grade hookers earn even more than dentists, and they usually retire well before hitting 51.

;-)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:30:42 am by Rob C »
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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #614 on: August 24, 2018, 10:54:17 am »

BUT... and itís a massive but, the video battery life is worrying.

We use small cameras like these for their size and weight and ability to work in situations where larger cameras are difficult. Gimbals, car interiors, hike-in locations, etc. If the battery life is what Nikonís specs say it is, 10-15 minutes of movie recording, it renders the cameras unusable without external power. And that is a very big strike against them for any serious video use. It defeats the very reasons we would choose it.

From memory and strictly IIRC, this was also an issue with the earlier A7r(s) - the Sony's could be powered by an external power pack, but even then they were limited to 30 minutes recording time for reasons to do w/ dissipating heat. I'd check w/ the boys over in 'Motion' , they should be able to give you first hand feedback.

I'd hope that these Nikons could also be powered via the USB port. Anyone know for sure ?
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bcooter

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #615 on: August 24, 2018, 10:57:46 am »

I guess we are just talking semantics here.

snip

I totally agree that Nikon has progress to make in terms of modularization . . .  snip.

Cheers,
Bernard


I think itís al conjecture until the first users put the camera through itís paces regardless of published specs, because there are specs that outperform, some the opposite..

I also think a lot o people will buy this camera for the Nikon name, since Nikon is considered a camera company first for foremost.

In the last few years Iíve seen more millenials using a Nikon or Canon dslr in Santa Monica and London than ever before.   Itís a step up from their phones and obviously there are still a lot of phone photos happening, but the point is the step up.

Personally Iíd love to see a camera mirror or ovf (or both) that had modularity, using the bottom right angle grip to come in two flavors.  One for video, one for stills.  The video one could have extra cooling, xlr inputs, higher bit rate, extra processing for higher fps, etc.

The still grip could have more battery power and also higher bit rate both could be used to enhance the tracking autofocus.

But I guess that wonít happen because the reason it seems for mirrorless is to create a smaller form factor.

I believe another reason for mirrorless is to entice the next generation.    Two weeks ago our family got together and my  young nieces and nephew always want to play with whatever camera I bring so I took an old 70d with a 16-55 2.8 zoom.

These are polite, very careful kids and at first they all tried to look through the ovf to take a snap, but it wasnít natural to them, so I turned on the lcd and showed them how to focus and shoot with it.  Now that was natural because they were trained to photograph with a smart phone.   After firing a few stills, they wanted to shoot movies, so off they went running around filming each other, using the lcd because thatís what they know.

So I think this is what the mirrorless makers see, millions of aspiring photographers/film makers that are trained with a big lcd and a button.

I hope the Nikon is a winner, though their first three lens selections puzzle me.   Personally Iíd have come out with three native zooms.  16-55, 24-70 and 70 to 200 and that will cover about everything.

IMO

BC

Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #616 on: August 24, 2018, 11:38:08 am »

By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

-
Edit: /jesting less anyone takes this seriously ..

 :D

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #617 on: August 24, 2018, 11:40:17 am »

Hi BC,

Thanks for chiming in!

The way I see it, the new Nikons offer an alternative to the D-line. Until the Nikons were released, Sony and Leica were the only vendors of full frame mirrorless. With Nikon Z series they have some competition and competition is always a good thing.

The way I see it, the Z-series offers a complement to the D750 and the D850. I don't think Nikon cares about selling a Z7 or a D850, although they probably make more money on the Z7.

I would expect that Canon also has mirrorless full frame around the corner.

I am not so sure that full frame is important. My take is that you used to be quite happy with Panasonic GH, also for stills,

Best regards
Erik





I think itís al conjecture until the first users put the camera through itís paces regardless of published specs, because there are specs that outperform, some the opposite..

I also think a lot o people will buy this camera for the Nikon name, since Nikon is considered a camera company first for foremost.

In the last few years Iíve seen more millenials using a Nikon or Canon dslr in Santa Monica and London than ever before.   Itís a step up from their phones and obviously there are still a lot of phone photos happening, but the point is the step up.

Personally Iíd love to see a camera mirror or ovf (or both) that had modularity, using the bottom right angle grip to come in two flavors.  One for video, one for stills.  The video one could have extra cooling, xlr inputs, higher bit rate, extra processing for higher fps, etc.

The still grip could have more battery power and also higher bit rate both could be used to enhance the tracking autofocus.

But I guess that wonít happen because the reason it seems for mirrorless is to create a smaller form factor.

I believe another reason for mirrorless is to entice the next generation.    Two weeks ago our family got together and my  young nieces and nephew always want to play with whatever camera I bring so I took an old 70d with a 16-55 2.8 zoom.

These are polite, very careful kids and at first they all tried to look through the ovf to take a snap, but it wasnít natural to them, so I turned on the lcd and showed them how to focus and shoot with it.  Now that was natural because they were trained to photograph with a smart phone.   After firing a few stills, they wanted to shoot movies, so off they went running around filming each other, using the lcd because thatís what they know.

So I think this is what the mirrorless makers see, millions of aspiring photographers/film makers that are trained with a big lcd and a button.

I hope the Nikon is a winner, though their first three lens selections puzzle me.   Personally Iíd have come out with three native zooms.  16-55, 24-70 and 70 to 200 and that will cover about everything.

IMO

BC
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #618 on: August 24, 2018, 11:51:25 am »

Do you even know who you are trying to convince of what my friend?



That was clearly not taken using either face detection or eye focus, so I fail to see your point.

SLRs don't have eye detection. Neither do the Z6/Z7, though, so there's no advantage to be gained in that respect by moving. And, if you're going to still be using all your old F-mount lenses, because Z-mount equivalents aren't available yet, you're giving up performance while not getting much back in return.

If there were native versions of the lenses you needed, it would be a different story - you'd gain all the benefits of mirrorless without giving anything up. But that's not going to happen for the Z mount for at least a few years.

I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).

Have you seen the battery life on this thing? It's rated for half the number of shots as the A7r3 for stills (in reality, the A7r3 gets you thousands per charge, not the stated 600-700) and reportedly only manages video for 15 minutes.

The output format looks good, but, unless you want to keep it plugged into a charger the whole time, the battery life might be a killer. Also, there's nothing stopping you from using F-mount lenses on an E-mount body for video. And the A7s3 is just around the corner (supposedly October).

Quote
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.

Then you really need to ask yourself why.

In general, you move to a different format in order to do something you can't do, or can't do as well, with your current equipment. With the Z6/Z7 and current lens lineup, that's not a lot - the D850 and D5 can do almost everything just as well or better than the Z6/Z7, particularly if you're going to stick with F-mount lenses and use them via an adapter. If you're not going to keep the F-mount lenses and plan to start afresh (which is perfectly reasonable if you only own one or two easily-resellable lenses anyway), then you're just as free to choose Sony and (likely soon) Canon as you are to choose Nikon - in which case, why are you going with the system with unproven bodies and only three lenses to choose from (with a few more dribbling out over the next few years) instead of a proven system with a large collection of lenses to choose from, including fast supertelephotos coming online from this year?

The point is, is there any reason for the F-mount user to shift to Nikon mirrorless right now, as opposed to moving to Sony/Canon, or sticking with SLR and making a move to mirrorless (in whatever format) in a few years time, as F-mount dies down and your lenses shift towards obsolescence? Probably not, from a purely performance point of view. If you just want to change to mirrorless for the sake of going mirrorless... well, that's not really all that logical.

The goalposts seem to be shifting here. We've been told that mirrorless is where it's at, and absolutely essential for making halfway decent images and that Nikon and Canon are hopelessly left behind and Nikon users are flocking to Sony. Overnight that unassailable lead in technology has disappeared, Nikon users have no incentive to switch to Sony, but we are told that in any case there's no interest in swapping your Nikon DSLR for mirrorless.

So what was all the fuss about anyway?

Mirrorless is where it's at for new systems. As in, if you didn't own any full-frame camera gear, you probably wouldn't want to go out and by a whole collection of EF- or F-mount lenses and bodies, since both systems are likely to gradually wind down over the next 5-10 years or so. This is because SLRs are near the pinnacle of their development, and new technologies that will meaningfully improve the shooting capabilities of cameras almost all require image data that only the through-the-sensor mirrorless approach can provide. At this point, if you were buying a new system, with no pre-existing collection of lenses, it would make most sense to go for Sony, since they have a semi-mature system with a wide range of lenses, in a format that isn't likely to lose support and updates over the next decade.

If you already have a collection of full-frame SLR lenses, it's different. Presumably, you want to keep on using those lenses for as long as you can, until they break down or are so thoroughly overtaken by technology that you have to replace them anyway. SLRs may be at their peak and mirrorless cameras may have much more potential, but, for the moment, their performance is around equal. But adapted lenses almost never perform as well AF-wise as lenses used on their native mount. So, by bringing your SLR lenses over to a mirrorless format and using an adapter, you aren't gaining much, and losing a good chunk of AF performance. Better to keep on using SLRs for as long as possible, keeping the full performance of your lenses but not accumulating any more of them, until either your lenses are no longer even second-rate by the standards of the day, or the gulf in performance between mirrorless and SLR systems grows so wide that you wouldn't want to miss out on the performance - at which point you would ditch the SLR system entirely and start afresh with whichever mirrorless system most suits your needs at that point in time.

There are obviously a few exceptions to this, such as when the mirrorless system offers one specifically sought-after feature that the SLR system lacks, and the user doesn't care about AF. This was the case with the migration of Canon-using landscape/studio/non-action photographers to Sony when they launched the A7r, when Canon was unable to keep up in either resolution or low-ISO dynamic range. But this is not the case with the Z6/Z7 - Nikon SLRs use much the same sensors, with much the same performance.

The main reason for going mirrorless is future-proofing, not current performance. F-mount, and likely EF-mount (unless Canon decides to use EF mount on mirrorless and simply designs all future lenses with motors and control systems with mirrorless focusing in mind) will likely be relics in 10 years time. E-mount probably won't be.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 11:55:47 am by shadowblade »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #619 on: August 24, 2018, 01:55:00 pm »

I have deleted several posts from this thread which seemed to me (and to those who reported them to me) to be both gratuitously offensive and irrelevant. The posters know who they are and must consider themselves warned.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:59:31 pm by Jeremy Roussak »
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