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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 82858 times)

hexx

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #540 on: August 23, 2018, 03:01:39 pm »

@shadowblade - seems like youíre completely wrong calling the 2 primes available at launch slow and midrange. Thereís already a review of 35/1.8 and photographerís jaw dropped (his own words). You can also look at specs and charts yourself.

Releasing 24-70/4 lens as part of the system is a good move as itís a kit lens and as a part of kit itís offered with good discount. 2.8 zooms will be as large as current versions so thereís no need to rush.
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #541 on: August 23, 2018, 03:05:34 pm »

I never had an SD card fail in a camera (though one blew up years ago while hooked up to a laptop) until I got a camera with two SD slots.  ;D  Even then it was the camera's rather than the card's fault.

From where I sit the new Nikon thing is a big meh. The last thing I'm interested in is another proprietary mount. But let's see how quickly (and well) they turn it into a proper system.

-Dave-
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32BT

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #542 on: August 23, 2018, 03:10:20 pm »

The new 50mm 0.95 looks like it will come with a high price tag: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-bokeh-king-noct-58mm-f-095-lens-will-cost-about-6000/

Is it focus-by-wire? And if so, how does one do that?
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #543 on: August 23, 2018, 03:35:25 pm »

I never had an SD card fail in a camera (though one blew up years ago while hooked up to a laptop) until I got a camera with two SD slots.  ;D  Even then it was the camera's rather than the card's fault.

From where I sit the new Nikon thing is a big meh. The last thing I'm interested in is another proprietary mount. But let's see how quickly (and well) they turn it into a proper system.

-Dave-

But aren't all lens mounts proprietary? How do you get around that?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #544 on: August 23, 2018, 03:45:00 pm »

With non-phone cameras losing popularity contest, they aim for the luxury market. The proverbial dentists and lawyers.

How could such a lens be cheap?

It is likely to beat the Otus while being 2 stops brighter.

The whole drama about the memory slot is such a pity because it casts a huge negative shadow on what is likely to be the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world.

Letís not underestimate Nikon on their core strenghts, these lenses will be totally outstanding while remaining compact and light (except for the statement Noct obviously but even that lens may not be much larger than an Otus 55mm f1.4 although it is 2 stops brighter). That may matter a lot for many photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 03:50:36 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #545 on: August 23, 2018, 04:05:36 pm »

But aren't all lens mounts proprietary? How do you get around that?

Some are moreso than others. I was hoping Nikon would publish their mount specs. "Here's how it works, folksÖhave at it!" A system where 3rd party lens makers wouldn't have to reverse engineer would interest me. It would also signal an intent to compete hard right outta the gate.

-Dave-
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hubell

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #546 on: August 23, 2018, 06:17:19 pm »

There is one potentially major feature of the new Z7 system that interests me. The initial lens lineup for the Z7 consists of three lenses that appear to be configured to be relatively slow by the standards of those who always clamor for FAST lenses (f/4 for the zoom and f/1.8 for the primes) and yet purport to provide the very highest level of optical quality AND a small, light form factor. Sony started out this way when it released the first A7R. There was a 55mm f/1.8, which is a fabulous lens and quite small. There was also a 35mm f/2.8 lens that was excellent and tiny. Then, there was a 24-70 f/4 zoom that was very compact but with just OK optical quality. Since then, Sony has segmented the lens lineup into two basic categories. Big, heavy, fast, expensive lenses that purport to be the top of the line in optical quality. And smaller, lighter, slower lenses that are less good but are cheaper for the price conscious. Reading the Z7 lens roadmap, I think I like what it appears Nikon may be doing. A line of slower but compact lenses (f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms) that are still of top quality and are not designed to be the cheap options, and then a line of fast primes (f/1.4 and f/.095) and fast f/2.8 zooms  that are big, heavy, somewhat more expensive and of excellent optical quality. Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:52:09 pm by hubell »
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cgarnerhome

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #547 on: August 23, 2018, 06:41:02 pm »

Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?

+1

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #548 on: August 23, 2018, 07:14:52 pm »

Yes, image quality is the core value here and I believe that you are totally correct in your understanding of the direction Nikon is taking.

The DSLR series of f1.8 Nikon lenses is already outstanding and it appears that the S line is even better.

There are probably going to be super compact lenses added later that may not belong to the S series, but for now all the lenses announced do. This says a lot about the focus of Nikon and they can be trusted on this!

Cheers,
Bernard

Chris Kern

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #549 on: August 23, 2018, 07:17:41 pm »

I moved on to smaller Fujis several years agoómy D800E spends almost all its time on a shelfóand I certainly can't claim any expertise in marketing.  But I don't understand why Nikon didn't bundle an F-mount adapter with the Z-series bodies, and absorb the manufacturing and distribution cost.  Or at the very least, offer a one-per-purchaser coupon that could be redeemed for an adapter from a retail outlet at Nikon's expense.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #550 on: August 23, 2018, 07:23:47 pm »

Bernard, your penchant for superlatives when it comes to Nikon is approaching Triumpís (for things he likes) :D

HSakols

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #551 on: August 23, 2018, 07:34:36 pm »

This is a strange time as a Nikon owner. Is this the beginning of the end of the F mount?  I was surprised to see in their roadmap of the future, a 20mm 1.8 prime Z mount.  They just recently came out with the F mount version.  Other than for long telephoto lenses why would Nikon ever make another F mount lens?  Is the D850 the last of the pro DSLR?  Then again can they really survive in the mirrorless market?
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gkroeger

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #552 on: August 23, 2018, 07:35:30 pm »

Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?

+2
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #553 on: August 23, 2018, 07:37:11 pm »

This is a strange time as a Nikon owner. Is this the beginning of the end of the F mount?  I was surprised to see in their roadmap of the future, a 20mm 1.8 prime Z mount.  They just recently came out with the F mount version.  Other than for long telephoto lenses why would Nikon ever make another F mount lens?  Is the D850 the last of the pro DSLR?  Then again can they really survive in the mirrorless market?

My view is that they have a pretty good F mount line up, and will probably continue to update some key lenses, but the focus moving forward is definitely going to be Z.

I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to survive in the mirrorless world. They have just come up with 2 bodies that are overall very close, if not better than the 3rd generation of Sony bodies at competitive pricing levels with a more future proof mount. Not sure what you are worried about?

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #554 on: August 23, 2018, 07:39:47 pm »

Bernard, your penchant for superlatives when it comes to Nikon is approaching Triumpís (for things he likes) :D
Political comments are supposed to be banned but I doubt Jeremy is reading this thread.
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HSakols

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #555 on: August 23, 2018, 08:00:06 pm »

Quote
Political comments are supposed to be banned but I doubt Jeremy is reading this thread.

Thankfully things that are true aren't always true  ;D
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #556 on: August 23, 2018, 08:53:37 pm »

@shadowblade - seems like youíre completely wrong calling the 2 primes available at launch slow and midrange. Thereís already a review of 35/1.8 and photographerís jaw dropped (his own words). You can also look at specs and charts yourself.

Releasing 24-70/4 lens as part of the system is a good move as itís a kit lens and as a part of kit itís offered with good discount. 2.8 zooms will be as large as current versions so thereís no need to rush.

I said slow, not midrange.

Regardless of their optical quality, there is a big role 35mm and 50mm lenses in the f/1.2-1.4 aperture range which a f/1.8 simply can't fill, no matter how sharp it is. Leica's Summicron lenses might be sharper, but there are a lot of applications where you just want the increased background blur of the Summilux. These lenses are Nikon's Summicrons.

In another sense, they're a bit like the Zeiss Batis 135/2.8. A sharp lens and solid optical performer, but just not fast enough for a lot of pro use - not when everyone else offers a 135/2 or 135/1.8. These potential buyers are waiting for the faster lens.

How could such a lens be cheap?

It is likely to beat the Otus while being 2 stops brighter.

No it's not.

The extreme geometries and optical design required for such fast lenses make them expensive and difficult to manufacture, as well as limiting their optical performance compared to less-extreme lenses.

Leica's Noctilux lenses are horrendously expensive. They're also just about the softest lenses in Leica's lineup. They're expensive because they're hard to design, hard to make and hard to sell profitably in large numbers.

I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to survive in the mirrorless world. They have just come up with 2 bodies that are overall very close, if not better than the 3rd generation of Sony bodies at competitive pricing levels with a more future proof mount. Not sure what you are worried about?

One. Card. Slot.

That alone takes it out of 'very close' contention. Many pros, and any others similarly interested in not risking loss of photos, simply won't consider them.

Other than that, the Z7 is pretty much a mirrorless D850, which itself is pretty much an A7r3 with a mirror. So I'd expect their performance to be pretty similar, give or take a few features on each side (eye focus, better weather sealing, pixel shift, etc.).

The position of the Z6 depends on its price. If it's cheaper than the A7III, it would make for a very good introductory full-frame camera, with a 24-70/4 kit lens. If it's priced significantly higher, it will struggle against the A9 and A7r3.

No doubt the single card issue will be fixed at some future point. But the next generation is almost certainly at least two years away, and will be competing against next-generation Sonys. Even now, these are new cameras competing against an almost one-year-old product, a third of the way into its life cycle - you'd expect them to be better.

The mount isn't really more future-proof - just bigger. It's still not big enough for a medium format sensor (technically, you could just fit a 33x44mm sensor behind a 55mm throat, but that leaves very little margin for lens design). And, if you can fit a 400/2.8, 600/4 or Leica Noctilux lens onto a Sony E via an adapter without edge clipping or major vignetting - and you clearly can, since many people have been doing exactly that over the past five years - then you can equally design such lenses native to the E-mount.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:10:51 pm by shadowblade »
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BJL

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Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in September 2018
« Reply #557 on: August 23, 2018, 08:56:16 pm »

Live from Nikon event:
- Z mount inner diameter is 55mm, flange distance is 16mm
Bernard, you clearly win on measuring from that photo; can I claim a tie for 55mm falling between my too low estimates and your earlier too high ones?!

A few random thoughts:
- The PCIe-based XQD seems to have won over the SATA-based CFast; the next generation CFexpress is essentially an evolution of XQD, with compatibility possible through firmware upgrades.

- I like Nikon's lens approach. It is clearly impractical to launch a full range of high quality lenses in a new mount and instantly please every category of user, so it seems wise to initially target those who care a bit more about about a reasonably light hand-holdable kit over maximum possible speed ó and then have an adaptor and a solid road map with the classic f/2.8 zooms and some fast primes. And with the very high usable ISO speeds these days, I am a fan of the idea of mid-speed f/4 zoom lenses that exploit the higher minimum f-stop to be excellently corrected.

- As I said before, the fact that Canon's late arriving EOS-M system with limited native lens options is the best selling APS-C mirrorless system (in Japan at least) shows the market clout of factors like a brands overall reputation, user base and extensive retail presence, along with lots of good first party SLR lenses already in customers' hands and usable with a first party adapter can count for a lot. So I would not rule out Nikon Z competing very well against Sony E.


P. S. Folks, please update my inaccurate original subject line!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:59:25 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #558 on: August 23, 2018, 09:05:33 pm »

These potential buyers are waiting for the faster lens.

I wondering why I find these appealing then... and so did 3 other actual buyers here also. The only person who has commented otherwise so far is you who is clearly not a potential buyer. ;)

No it's not.

The extreme geometries and optical design required for such fast lenses make them expensive and difficult to manufacture, as well as limiting their optical performance compared to less-extreme lenses.

Leica's Noctilux lenses are horrendously expensive. They're also just about the softest lenses in Leica's lineup. They're expensive because they're hard to design, hard to make and hard to sell profitably in large numbers.

As far as I know, your comments are purely theoretical since no MTF charts have been published. I have never caught Nikon lying about the level of performance of their optics. It is the first time they speak with such confidence about a lens, I am 100% sure it is going to be amazing.

The recent 75mm f1.25 is probably the best Leica lens M there is. Technology progresses. The Nikon at 6,000 US$ is going to be seen as a total bargain among these super designs.

Overall, most of your Nikon Z forecast have proven wrong and mine have proven right. The odds seem pretty high that the track record extends to lenses too...  8)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:10:55 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Kirk_C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #559 on: August 23, 2018, 09:07:53 pm »

But I don't understand why Nikon didn't bundle an F-mount adapter with the Z-series bodies, and absorb the manufacturing and distribution cost.  Or at the very least, offer a one-per-purchaser coupon that could be redeemed for an adapter from a retail outlet at Nikon's expense.

Absorb the costs of bundling an adapter ? You mean build the cost into the sale of every camera to accommodate the maybe 1 in 10 purchasers who want one. That'll never happen.

Now some retailers do know how to compel you to buy that bundle at their discounted price.

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