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Author Topic: Large amount of P1 backs for sales  (Read 19365 times)

bjanes

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2018, 08:21:13 AM »

I have tested both, the Hasselblad H6D-400c Multi-shot and the Phase One Trichromatic and for my work the Phase One is the one with better colors and image quality.

If I may ask, what kind of work do you do?

Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

Bill
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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2018, 08:41:38 AM »

Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

Bill

One can easily pixel shift with anything these days.
If you just take 20 or so shots off a tripod with the Phase back you can probably average them out into a really good composite.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0727694641/here-s-how-to-pixel-shift-with-any-camera

 ;)

Edmund
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JLook

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2018, 09:17:54 AM »

Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

I do a lot of jewelry and some fashion photography.
I used Capture One and Phocus.
I did the tests with a mix of jewelry where the colors are usually not so easy to get. And the color of a stone in jewelry can sometimes make a $100k price difference.
I was surprised that the Phase One was a lot closer to the original colors because I thought the Hasselblad should be better with the multi shot. But it was not. I was showing the photos to the client I had the jewelry from together with photos of other cameras I did the test with (two other Phase Ones, Canon 5Ds R, Nikon D850) and she pointed immediately to the photo of the Trichromatic.
So just a test with the work I do and the way I work.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 01:08:45 PM »

Multishot capture* has no bearing on overall Color Accuracy. None.

You actually have to try pretty hard to create the niche conditions where multishot has any impact on color at all; you need a strongly saturated subject whose color changes sharply on a per pixel basis; for example, think of shooting a table full of marbles from such a height that each marble was exactly one pixel in size.

I think a lot misunderstanding from this topic comes from history. Hasselblad and Sinar, to their credit, have cared about neutral color reproduction for a long time and both companies also made multishot backs, so “multishot” and “Color accuracy” were conflated in the minds of users. Phase One only really started focusing on the minutia of Color accuracy (eg museums and libraries) in the last decade. In my (biased) option they have taken the lead during that time as evidenced by Capture One CH edition, the Trichromatic, and their very long list of Museum and Library clients.

Multishot CAN improve resolution, assuming lens, aperture, focus, subject flatness and other factors like vibration are very tightly controlled. The other generally accepted method to do so is to stitch the subject in multiple captures. Both techniques have their pros and cons, though in my biased opinion, the option to move the camera or subject rather than sensor becomes preferential for practical reasons once you’re in the 60-80mp range.

*here I mean the type of multishot capture where you move the sensor
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:27:52 PM by Doug Peterson »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2018, 01:14:14 PM »

Very interesting, thank you for the answer,

I assume you opened the files in Photoshop side to side and showed them on screen to your client?

I am currently considering replacing my aging Nec and color profiling solution. Would you mind sharing what you are using on both fronts to manage such super critical color work?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

JLook

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2018, 01:33:44 PM »

I assume you opened the files in Photoshop side to side and showed them on screen to your client?

I did two separate tests on different days. The first without the Hasselblad where I had all of them open in Capture One.

The second one was just the Phase One agains the Hasselblad where I showed them in Capture One and Phocus but I also made a Photoshop Version with them next to each other.

Quote
I am currently considering replacing my aging Nec and color profiling solution. Would you mind sharing what you are using on both fronts to manage such super critical color work?

I use Profoto Lights (Pro 8A) to have a good color consistency and a 4K NEC Monitor.
When it comes to spending a lot of extra work with separate profiles I am maybe a little bit naive that I believe when the back, the camera, the lens and the RAW converter are all from the same manufacture the colors should already be as good as possible in the software without the need of extra profiles.
That is for me the case with the Trichromatic and I have done now a couple of jobs with the new back and my clients are very happy.


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bjanes

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2018, 01:37:37 PM »

One can easily pixel shift with anything these days.
If you just take 20 or so shots off a tripod with the Phase back you can probably average them out into a really good composite.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0727694641/here-s-how-to-pixel-shift-with-any-camera

Emund,

Thanks for the link. I was aware of super resolution using PhotoAcute, but it is no longer being supported and the Photoshop option looks interesting and worth a try. With my Nikon D850 I could use a continuous mode and try silent live view photography to avoid shutter/mirror vibration. However, I would think that true pixel shift would be superior. A Medium format option would not be practical for me.

Regards,

Bill
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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2018, 01:49:42 PM »

Emund,

Thanks for the link. I was aware of super resolution using PhotoAcute, but it is no longer being supported and the Photoshop option looks interesting and worth a try. With my Nikon D850 I could use a continuous mode and try silent live view photography to avoid shutter/mirror vibration. However, I would think that true pixel shift would be superior. A Medium format option would not be practical for me.

Regards,

Bill

To my astonishment, I've found a bunch of people have been doing this this, Google "superresolution photohsop". As you state, running silent liveview capture would be one of the best ways to get the images. I think another application would be low-light photography.

Here is an action I located, I don't know exactly what it does, but it doesn't look malicious. There are plenty of others.

http://sdp.io/superres

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2018, 01:58:04 PM »

In the past, multishot was recommended as worthwhile for jewellery photography specifically. I find it remarkable to be told now that all that was hype. Who knew?


Edmund


Multishot capture* has no bearing on overall Color Accuracy. None.

You actually have to try pretty hard to create the niche conditions where multishot has any impact on color at all; you need a strongly saturated subject whose color changes sharply on a per pixel basis; for example, think of shooting a table full of marbles from such a height that each marble was exactly one pixel in size.

I think a lot misunderstanding from this topic comes from history. Hasselblad and Sinar, to their credit, have cared about neutral color reproduction for a long time and both companies also made multishot backs, so “multishot” and “Color accuracy” were conflated in the minds of users. Phase One only really started focusing on the minutia of Color accuracy (eg museums and libraries) in the last decade. In my (biased) option they have taken the lead during that time as evidenced by Capture One CH edition, the Trichromatic, and their very long list of Museum and Library clients.

Multishot CAN improve resolution, assuming lens, aperture, focus, subject flatness and other factors like vibration are very tightly controlled. The other generally accepted method to do so is to stitch the subject in multiple captures. Both techniques have their pros and cons, though in my biased opinion, the option to move the camera or subject rather than sensor becomes preferential for practical reasons once you’re in the 60-80mp range.

*here I mean the type of multishot capture where you move the sensor
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 02:09:23 PM by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2018, 02:03:33 PM »

In the past, multishot was recommended as worthwhile for jewellery photography specifically. I find it remarkable to be told now that all that was hype. Who knew?

Then again we were once told that P1 backs had 6 stops more DR than DSLRs only to find out that the best DSLRs had in fact more DR... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2018, 02:08:28 PM »

The topic of color consistency with flash output when using multishot is one that may have to be looked into.

All the people I heard use multi-shot were using Broncolor strobes due to the best in class output color stability across shots.

Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2018, 02:10:57 PM »

The topic of color consistency with flash output when using multishot is one that may have to be looked into.

All the people I heard use multi-shot were using Broncolor strobes due to the best in class output color stability across shots.

Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, this was always the issue; however with the new-gen CMOS sensors and LED lights available continuous lighting might be feasible.

Edmund
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JLook

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2018, 02:15:02 PM »

Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

What is old for you?
With the Profoto Pro-8a it is ±40°K flash to flash
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2018, 02:38:54 PM »

What is old for you?
With the Profoto Pro-8a it is ±40°K flash to flash

Anything older than a Pro-10 really.

Specs and actual measurements are 2 different things, especially as the pack and head gets a lot of use.

I am just wondering whether these is available data.

With MS strange things can happen since each RGB value is exposed at a different flash instance.

Cheers,
Bernard

JLook

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2018, 02:46:48 PM »

Specs and actual measurements are 2 different things, especially as the pack and head gets a lot of use.

I do a lot of focus stacking where I would see it and never had problems with them.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2018, 02:48:20 PM »

Yes, this was always the issue; however with the new-gen CMOS sensors and LED lights available continuous lighting might be feasible.

I'm using continuous lighting more and more. However, I've yet to find a LED photo light without a spike in the blue part of the spectrum. I'm measuring 18-patch CRIs in the mid-nineties, but I still worry.

Jim

Doug Peterson

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2018, 03:18:27 PM »

I'm using continuous lighting more and more. However, I've yet to find a LED photo light without a spike in the blue part of the spectrum. I'm measuring 18-patch CRIs in the mid-nineties, but I still worry.

Jim

DT Photon LED Lighting for Cultural Heritage. 98 CRI-14 and 98 CQS

Spectrum discussed here:
https://dtdch.com/cultural-heritage-webinars/lighting-cultural-heritage/
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 03:21:45 PM by Doug Peterson »
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Rob C

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2018, 03:34:25 PM »

Rob, I also recommend Deadwood if you haven't watched it yet.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348914/

Edmund

Thanks, Edmund and Keith, for your suggestions, but they show you have been on photo websites too long: you are actually suggesting my answer lies in changing brands? It's the EngreBracquo situation I need resolved! Switching's for pussies!

;-)

Rob

KLaban

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2018, 04:34:52 PM »

Thanks, Edmund and Keith, for your suggestions, but they show you have been on photo websites too long: you are actually suggesting my answer lies in changing brands? It's the EngreBracquo situation I need resolved! Switching's for pussies!

;-)

Rob

Rob, if I remember correctly Pussy was killed off in series 2.

;-)
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2018, 05:01:57 PM »

DT Photon LED Lighting for Cultural Heritage. 98 CRI-14 and 98 CQS

Spectrum discussed here:
https://dtdch.com/cultural-heritage-webinars/lighting-cultural-heritage/

Gotcha, but I was talking about lights suitable for normal studio use, and I don't think these are going to do me much good. I need to be able to use standard light modifiers.

I didn't sit through the whole hour and fifteen-minute video. Actually, I couldn't sand more than a few minutes, so I didn't see the spectrum. I did find the web page that describes the lights.

Thanks.

Jim
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