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Author Topic: Large amount of P1 backs for sales  (Read 29504 times)

eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2018, 07:50:41 am »

I don’t think so.

P1 has chosen a business model that apparently works for them and that model means they are not interested in serving 99.99% of the market.

Other manufacturers have chosen to address 0.1% of the market instead of 0.01%, it is only natural that they get more praise from the 10 times more numerous users.

Cheers,
Bernard


There's nothing wrong with the Phase products, but they're now increasingly out of tune with the individual market on price and model range. Individual photographers may wish for mirrorless and video, but not for aerial mount.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of photographers with Phase systems aren't just dumping Phase while they still can and moving to Fuji, getting a cheap and modern camera in a tradeoff.

Edmund
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2018, 09:57:11 am »

I haven't read anyone being anti-Phase one, people are just making observations. I have been a Phase One owner for a long time and up until recently I wouldn't have considered other brands.

I am seriously considering changing things up for the first time in a long time because I don't feel that what Phase One has to offer, over and above the alternatives, is reflected in the cost of the investment or even that useful anymore. Moderate gains in colour and some extra pixels is not going to cut it. I see that old paradigm as a bit of a hinderance now and I see what Hasselblad and Fuji are doing with the X1D and GFX as far more useful and exciting. That's where the attention is, that's what people are excited by and buying in large quantities and that's where we're going to see developments in lenses and the rest of the system. It's like the attention of 35mm with the imaging potential of Medium Format. Medium Format has outgrown the mirror and there is a lot more on offer and a lot more potential in what mirrorless can deliver. The fact that these options are times cheaper is even better and makes it even more enticing.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 10:20:14 am by Bo_Dez »
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Weldon Brewster

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2018, 11:37:43 am »

Sigh, we seem to have a weekly 'sky is falling' thread for some camera brand or another. Phase One along with Sony/Canon/Nikon/etc. are just fine.  I think at this moment we live in a golden age of photo technology.  Basically anything you buy will outperform the cameras from ten years ago.

I've been a commercial photographer for 31 years and I'm completely agnostic when it comes to cameras.  I don't believe they are fetish items just tools that I use for my work.  Just like a cement mixer or a drill.  People seldom get in passionate disagreements over cement mixers :-)

I have always maintained 3 camera systems: small format, medium format and large format.  Using the right tool for a particular job.  Right now that's Fuji/Sony/Phase One.  The common thread is everything has to go thru Capture One.

As a long time customer when I purchased my Trichromatic earlier this year Phase One took care of me.  I got a very fair price on my trade in and the cost was not that bad.  If you look at other industries, photo gear is actually pretty cheap.  Try pricing a kitted out plumbers truck for example.  Phase One also seems to be somewhat malaligned on the 'Medium Format/Film/Digital Backs and Large Sensor Photography' forum and I'm not sure why.  The XF is a remarkable camera and all the IQ backs are really good.  (I say the same thing about the flagship products from Sony/Canon/Nikon)  Anyway, my two cents.
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pschefz

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2018, 12:27:20 pm »

Correct.

Yet another first claimed by Team Phase One, owed to its significant investment in R+D over the past decade.

For those keeping track at home (get out your bingo cards), using ship dates:
- First with long exposures
- First to 60mp
- First to 80mp
- First to MF CMOS*
- First to 100mp
- First to MF BSI

And those are just the modern sensor-based examples of firsts :).

Do note, that the iXM 100mp is quite specific to industrial applications such as aerial mapping. You won't be shooting selfies, cats, or landscape images with it anytime soon. And it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product. It's typically much easier to incorporate new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
that is a very strange claim to me....the first to come out with a camera that very few people can actually use or want....
and we all know that all those pesky requirements have been worked out just fine by other companies....which will sell the same IQ WITH all those pesky requirements for a fraction of the camera that nobody can or will want to use.....

in other words: if being first comes with selling a very limited box of a camera for 40K only to see fuji and hasselblad (neither of which are newcomers) come in 6 months later to sell a full featured product that can take selfies for 15K (or 10?), i honestly do not see the point at all.....

goes along with the philosophy that refuses to welcome GFX or X1D users into the capture one software world...competition? the gfx and x1d did not kill the digital back market, high end DSLR/mirrorless did, all of which are supported.....
all this R&D....i thought sony (and others before) make the sensors? i get it, everybody mixes their special sauce....but again, so does fuji and hasselblad....with the same sensor.....which is built by sony.....and adobe happily supports everything....because, why not?

i really wish phase best of luck, as a consumer I want as many strong players as possible.....in the end it comes down to how much IQ/$ and how much functionality to in need or get with it.....which is a different calculation for everybody....and as a 2 time phase back customer myself, IMO that calculation is getting out of whack....
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jduncan

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2018, 05:21:13 pm »

And all those poping up are mostly CMOS based IQ backs.

As if some guys had insider information about something about to happen. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi,

Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Best regards,


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2018, 05:48:16 pm »

Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Excactly! 😀

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2018, 06:59:23 pm »

Hi,

Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Best regards,

Yes, but Fuji are also due to release some new MF bodies, so why isn't everyone dumping their Fuji gear?

Edmund
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Joe Towner

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2018, 08:30:01 pm »

Congrats to Team Phase, this means the 33x44 100mp chip is shipping in enough numbers that you can start selling it.  3fps, 4k video, 10gb ethernet - what else could someone want!  50ms sync in an array - wow - would be interested to see what a 4x4 of these would capture, or a 360 ring with the 35mm RSM lenses in the middle of a stadium.

I REALLY hope the XQD/CFexpress is the local storage format for all future IQ backs.

Can't wait to see the new chip in a 'how the *?@#! do we tell them apart IQ3 100mp kit.  Next up is the 150mp 54x40 chips!



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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2018, 04:49:58 am »

Congrats to Team Phase, this means the 33x44 100mp chip is shipping in enough numbers that you can start selling it.  3fps, 4k video, 10gb ethernet - what else could someone want!  50ms sync in an array - wow - would be interested to see what a 4x4 of these would capture, or a 360 ring with the 35mm RSM lenses in the middle of a stadium.

I REALLY hope the XQD/CFexpress is the local storage format for all future IQ backs.

Can't wait to see the new chip in a 'how the *?@#! do we tell them apart IQ3 100mp kit.  Next up is the 150mp 54x40 chips!

Congrats to Team Sony for supplying the whole medium format industry with sensors, and relentlessly driving the tech forward, allowing photographers to buy a new "most resolving" camera every two years.

Edmund

Edmund
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uaiomex

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2018, 01:00:48 pm »

That's exactly what I was thinking. Before Sony, MF seemed to languish eternally. Even I caught once and then (if I remember well) that MF back manufacturers wished sensor maker could go faster.
Now with Sony, I'm under the impression that things go too fast at least for some buyers.

Nevertheless, thanks Sony for stepping into sensor fabrication and camera equipment with so much gusto and enthusiasm.
Full domination in the sensor biz will end in a monopoly.
Samsung please!
 

Congrats to Team Sony for supplying the whole medium format industry with sensors, and relentlessly driving the tech forward, allowing photographers to buy a new "most resolving" camera every two years.

Edmund

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2018, 03:42:18 pm »

Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

  • Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji build relatively affordable camera systems around the 44x33 CMOS sensor.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji designed the system around the 44x33 mm 100 MP sensor, that means that they could make use of scaling benefits and the lens system is a good fit for the smaller sensor size.
  • Hasselblad, Fuji and Pentax sell all trough the usual channels.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji are probably selling in relatively high volumes. So they swap high earning per unit for decent earnings at a higher volume. Which means higher investments in production capacity.
So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik



That's exactly what I was thinking. Before Sony, MF seemed to languish eternally. Even I caught once and then (if I remember well) that MF back manufacturers wished sensor maker could go faster.
Now with Sony, I'm under the impression that things go too fast at least for some buyers.

Nevertheless, thanks Sony for stepping into sensor fabrication and camera equipment with so much gusto and enthusiasm.
Full domination in the sensor biz will end in a monopoly.
Samsung please!
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Endeavour

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2018, 05:47:57 pm »

On the subject of Capture One

Maybe we should see C1 spun off into its own stand alone product. I would gladly pay for a C1 which supported both my P1 and Hassy formats.

Although its easy to shoot the idea down as never going to happen, and talking about P1's business model - history is littered with many very successful tech & software companies who failed because they tried to force specific hardware constraints on their customers.

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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2018, 08:16:26 pm »

Erik,

 I think you're right, Hassy and Fuji have created a new market.

Edmund

Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

  • Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji build relatively affordable camera systems around the 44x33 CMOS sensor.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji designed the system around the 44x33 mm 100 MP sensor, that means that they could make use of scaling benefits and the lens system is a good fit for the smaller sensor size.
  • Hasselblad, Fuji and Pentax sell all trough the usual channels.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji are probably selling in relatively high volumes. So they swap high earning per unit for decent earnings at a higher volume. Which means higher investments in production capacity.
So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2018, 10:39:23 pm »

Although its easy to shoot the idea down as never going to happen, and talking about P1's business model - history is littered with many very successful tech & software companies who failed because they tried to force specific hardware constraints on their customers.

And one whose market cap as of May 01, 2018 is $858,020,000,000.

Jim

pschefz

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2018, 10:43:08 pm »

Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

  • Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji build relatively affordable camera systems around the 44x33 CMOS sensor.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji designed the system around the 44x33 mm 100 MP sensor, that means that they could make use of scaling benefits and the lens system is a good fit for the smaller sensor size.
  • Hasselblad, Fuji and Pentax sell all trough the usual channels.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji are probably selling in relatively high volumes. So they swap high earning per unit for decent earnings at a higher volume. Which means higher investments in production capacity.
So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik

lets also not forget that fuji sells a ton of smaller cameras AND makes their own lenses.....being able to apply their own existing tech and keep pushing forward and still treat the entire GFX line as a high end "gloss" line is huge....being able to make excellent glass and sell it at prices competitive to DSLR glass is another huge plus....
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fredjeang2

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2018, 10:06:59 am »

lets also not forget that fuji sells a ton of smaller cameras AND makes their own lenses.....being able to apply their own existing tech and keep pushing forward and still treat the entire GFX line as a high end "gloss" line is huge....being able to make excellent glass and sell it at prices competitive to DSLR glass is another huge plus....
But that was already part of Fuji's DNA. They have been making good glasses at optimum price/perf for the film and broadcast industry since the eon's age.
It seems that it is a company that has a special skill to make the best products at best cost/effectiveness.
In a way, their current business model is not surprizing as it follows what they have been doing, but it is remarkable
And in tune with the sign of the time.

For what I've heard from Fuji's owner, they also are very dynamic in improving
Constantly their products with numerous firmware updates, a sport in which Sony is not good at,
To the point (I don't know if it is true or an exageration) that a Fuji product with the latest firmwares is like
A completly new model at no extra cost.
So they also seem to know how to settle their clientelle, keeping people happy.

(Pentax was good at that too (quality-price) but Pentax or Ricoh ignores mirrorless and ignores video, condemning themselves into a narrower niche).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:24:55 am by fredjeang2 »
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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2018, 11:45:53 am »

For what I've heard from Fuji's owner, they also are very dynamic in improving
Constantly their products with numerous firmware updates, a sport in which Sony is not good at,
To the point (I don't know if it is true or an exageration) that a Fuji product with the latest firmwares is like
A completly new model at no extra cost.
So they also seem to know how to settle their clientelle, keeping people happy.


It's true. I have an original X100, it's out of this world with the latest firmware.
It's a camera that unproblematically takes good pictures.
If you have 350 Euros and need a carry around for the occasions when it has to be a real camera and not a phone, get one on the used market.

Edmund

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BJL

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Doug,

   About the Sony sensor apparently used in the new Phase One iXM, you say:
... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.
If  by "unclear" you mean "not yet a completely proven fact" I agree, but I would say that it is a very high probability with Fujifilm and Hasselblad at least. The arguments you gave make sense for it appearing _first_ in a low volume, high mark-up industrial product, but not for it staying in that niche once yields are high enough:
- Fujifilm has a clear incentive to offer the higher 100MP resolution within its G format system.
- Hasselbad is in the aerial camera business, and is even owned by drone maker DJI, so will want to keep up with Phase One Industrial.
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Jim Kasson

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Doug,

   About the Sony sensor apparently used in the new Phase One iXM, you say:If  by "unclear" you mean "not yet a completely proven fact" I agree, but I would say that it is a very high probability with Fujifilm and Hasselblad at least. The arguments you gave make sense for it appearing _first_ in a low volume, high mark-up industrial product, but not for it staying in that niche once yields are high enough:
- Fujifilm has a clear incentive to offer the higher 100MP resolution within its G format system.
- Hasselbad is in the aerial camera business, and is even owned by drone maker DJI, so will want to keep up with Phase One Industrial.

Doug said, "... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.", not "... it's unclear whether P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product."

I think when is still unclear. I can hardly wait for the GFX 100S, though.

Jim

BJL

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Doug said, "... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.", not "... it's unclear whether P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product."

I think when is still unclear. I can hardly wait for the GFX 100S, though.

Jim
Oh yes; I misread. So Doug's statement is obviously correct (there are no other announcements yet!), but not particularly useful or informative: emphasizing a lack of certainty over the likelihood that the answer is "soon, from at least one competitor". I doubt that Sony would have announced these new BSI sensors (the 100MP 44x33 IMX461 and the 150MP 54x40 IMX411) as 2018 products if they did not have more outlets than the iXM lined up.

However, I note something interesting in the way that Sony describes the use cases for these sensors in the document http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf: the applications listed are
- Aerial Photography
- Large Area Surveillance
- Cultural Heritage (apparently meaning photographs of paintings)
- Inspection
so nothing that fits what is typically done with "mainstream" medium format cameras. For example, no "landscapes that you can print as big as your big-screen TV and then view from as close as you do with your phone's screen".
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