Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on April 25, 2018, 01:00:10 am

Title: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 25, 2018, 01:00:10 am
I have just noticed that there are currently 7 recent P1 backs for sales in the second hand section, which is unheard of as far as I can remember.

What’s up in the P1 world?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Hank Keeton on April 25, 2018, 01:35:39 am
P-1 has announced the end of factory-servicing for these backs.

Get ready for a landslide of "used" sales....and strategic retreats....

Sighing......Hank
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pemihan on April 25, 2018, 04:11:09 am
P-1 has announced the end of factory-servicing for these backs.

Get ready for a landslide of "used" sales....and strategic retreats....

Sighing......Hank


That is only the old P backs. The P+ and forward is still being serviced and of course the IQ backs will be serviced for many years to come.

Peter
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 25, 2018, 05:20:59 am
That is only the old P backs. The P+ and forward is still being serviced and of course the IQ backs will be serviced for many years to come.

And all those poping up are mostly CMOS based IQ backs.

As if some guys had insider information about something about to happen. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on April 25, 2018, 06:03:54 am
Very interesting! I have noticed this elsewhere also and was wondering why there are so many IQ backs floating around at the moment.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: teamwiess on April 25, 2018, 07:11:44 am
My setup is P1 and I love it to be honest.  Have tried the GFX and much prefer my P1.  That being said, I posted a while back concern given the obvious shift in marketing behavior of the company.  I am a senior executive with an expertise in strategy and usually such a shift is not a good sign for a company.  That being said there are a few other reasons that a company might curtail or shift their marketing strategy but even there it would be at the verge of a shift in focus for a company.  So whatever it is, it is a sign of a change coming.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on April 25, 2018, 08:03:56 am
My setup is P1 and I love it to be honest.  Have tried the GFX and much prefer my P1.  That being said, I posted a while back concern given the obvious shift in marketing behavior of the company.  I am a senior executive with an expertise in strategy and usually such a shift is not a good sign for a company.  That being said there are a few other reasons that a company might curtail or shift their marketing strategy but even there it would be at the verge of a shift in focus for a company.  So whatever it is, it is a sign of a change coming.

Maybe they have a mirrorless camera in the works to compete with the X1D?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 25, 2018, 08:11:39 am
Maybe they have a mirrorless camera in the works to compete with the X1D?

Indeed, that is a possibility.

Another one is that they need cash so badly that they are selling new backs as used ones at a large discount?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: dchew on April 25, 2018, 08:41:28 am
Indeed, that is a possibility.

Another one is that they need cash so badly that they are selling new backs as used ones at a large discount?

Cheers,
Bernard

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124128.0 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124128.0)

 8)

Dave
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on April 25, 2018, 12:08:16 pm
Indeed, that is a possibility.

Another one is that they need cash so badly that they are selling new backs as used ones at a large discount?

Everything is possible, but we know that the cmos backs will be replaced around summer as Sony new sensors become available. I am not surprised to see discounts. The Fuji GFX and Hasseblad X1D are discounted as well.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 25, 2018, 12:53:50 pm

That is only the old P backs. The P+ and forward is still being serviced and of course the IQ backs will be serviced for many years to come.

Peter

Does anyone know how to fix column issues?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on April 26, 2018, 05:42:11 am
Does anyone know how to fix column issues?

Viagra?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Alexey.Danilchenko on April 26, 2018, 07:34:31 am
Does anyone know how to fix column issues?
If by that you mean a remap then sort of. I did a solution for Kodak ProBacks where remap happens in camera, but with P1s it is actually a lot easier - not much is applied to raws in camera and metadata is written in IIQ files. It should be possible to write software to preprocess them and inject the remap should the need arise for it
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Joe Towner on April 26, 2018, 11:20:30 am
Does anyone know how to fix column issues?
Remove the car sitting on top of it?  ;D
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 26, 2018, 02:07:52 pm
Does anyone know how to fix column issues?

I think that spiderman saved a famous one in the last movie or am I misunderstanding what you are talking about?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 26, 2018, 03:35:28 pm
Oh no!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 26, 2018, 04:20:28 pm
Really, ya'll?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcCPR7hQHCk


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 26, 2018, 04:30:55 pm
Viagra?

Viagra is just a one-time fix, and we're addicts  ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Graham Welland on April 26, 2018, 09:36:30 pm
Really, ya'll?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcCPR7hQHCk


Steve Hendrix/CI

Awesome :)

As per Samuel Clemens, "The reports of my death are an exaggeration".

** although I prefer the 'rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated' even if he didn't actually say it.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: E.J. Peiker on April 27, 2018, 09:32:47 am
It is easy to see why people might get the idea that there's trouble in Phase One land given the relative quietness of the company of late.  There is a marked reduction in Webinars, we are now 33% through 2018 and still no PODAS schedule, a big decline in Phase One folks engaging with the public online.  There was a major firmware update about 6 months ago and no webinar to teach us how to use the new features, etc...  One would think with the new much cheaper "quasi" medium format products available they would spend a lot more time being out there and promoting their products and explaining why their platform is superior.  As a Phase One customer and system owner, I very much hope they are very busy creating great new products but as someone that has invested a lot of money into the Phase One ecosystem, these things don't go unnoticed and give concern.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on April 27, 2018, 10:13:56 am
There are four XF100's on ebay now. 3 of those are "like new". Only one has seen actual use with 11k actuations. One of them says you can choose a a specific lens.

Does look like stock dumping. One can only wonder why but it's not hard to look at the current climate and think trouble is afloat.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 27, 2018, 12:14:23 pm
There are four XF100's on ebay now. 3 of those are "like new". Only one has seen actual use with 11k actuations. One of them says you can choose a a specific lens.

Does look like stock dumping. One can only wonder why but it's not hard to look at the current climate and think trouble is afloat.


I could only find two IQ 100 listings, but my eBay search skills may not be as fine tuned as some. And the listings I saw were from Camera West, who is known more for Leica, and is only a recent addition to Phase One dealership, and Kurland Photo, who is not even a Phase One dealer. As one of the most prominent dealers in the world, Capture Integration does not list Phase One systems on eBay, nor do we have any need to (the only exception being the very rare poor cosmetic version of a trade in product, I believe this has happened perhaps twice in my 9 years of experience at CI).


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: voidshatter on April 27, 2018, 01:14:46 pm
And all those poping up are mostly CMOS based IQ backs.

As if some guys had insider information about something about to happen. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm told that the Sony A7R-II doesn't have the magenta cast for the ZEISS Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM (https://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/int/photography/products/zm-lenses/distagon-2815-zm.html). This is good indication that the BSI versions of the IMX411 and the IMX461 sensors may have a chance to bring an end to the need of LCC shots for technical cameras :)

Maybe these guys got insider information of an imminent release of these new BSI sensors so they are now selling these upfront to avoid the significant depreciation. It would typically cost more to go through Phase One's official upgrade quotes, because Phase One's trade-in price would be based on the 2nd-hand market for old backs *after* depreciation due to release of new backs.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 27, 2018, 01:23:44 pm
I'm told that the Sony A7R-II doesn't have the magenta cast for the ZEISS Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM (https://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/int/photography/products/zm-lenses/distagon-2815-zm.html). This is good indication that the BSI versions of the IMX411 and the IMX461 sensors may have a chance to bring an end to the need of LCC shots for technical cameras :)

Maybe these guys got insider information of an imminent release of these new BSI sensors so they are now selling these upfront to avoid the significant depreciation. It would typically cost more to go through Phase One's official upgrade quotes, because Phase One's trade-in price would be based on the 2nd-hand market for old backs *after* depreciation due to release of new backs.

As a Phase One dealer, it is our job to sell Phase One products. The fact we're selling them does not have any bearing on whether a future product is imminent.

But any Phase One dealer that would sell a $20k + or $30k + system on eBay is not representative of anything other than that particular dealer not being effective at selling to their market space. Or in the case of Calumet years back, dumping inventory to make payroll.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 27, 2018, 09:10:27 pm
It is easy to see why people might get the idea that there's trouble in Phase One land given the relative quietness of the company of late.  There is a marked reduction in Webinars, we are now 33% through 2018 and still no PODAS schedule, a big decline in Phase One folks engaging with the public online.  There was a major firmware update about 6 months ago and no webinar to teach us how to use the new features, etc...  One would think with the new much cheaper "quasi" medium format products available they would spend a lot more time being out there and promoting their products and explaining why their platform is superior.  As a Phase One customer and system owner, I very much hope they are very busy creating great new products but as someone that has invested a lot of money into the Phase One ecosystem, these things don't go unnoticed and give concern.

Hassy and Fuji (and Pentax) are clearly making money off fairly reasonably priced crop-sensor MF products. I think you can get a Fuji with sensor for the price of an XF with no back. Phase is getting its legs chopped off.

I expect they will concentrate into full solutions for the cultural heritage market, and very hig-rez products, and any crop-sensor users will be told to upgrade or write off their "investment".

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on April 27, 2018, 10:34:05 pm
i got an email ad today for leaf backs, 40, 60 pix backs, mostly CCD i assume, all around 20, 25K.....its crazy....
unless one has a very, very specific need for a very niche system, it is hard to justify a 40, 50K back (plus another 10, 15, 20K for a system) these days....it was hard years ago, its even harder today and the fuji and hasselblad systems are filling a LOT of the few existing niches in very nicely....
at a time when you can rent cars permanently via an app (volvo, all expenses incl insurance incl) it seems like it would make sense to see super highest end capture devices going that way as well.....instead of financing the back (system) an indefinite lease (iPhone!) with possible upgrades....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2018, 12:55:02 am
Hassy and Fuji (and Pentax) are clearly making money off fairly reasonably priced crop-sensor MF products. I think you can get a Fuji with sensor for the price of an XF with no back. Phase is getting its legs chopped off.

I expect they will concentrate into full solutions for the cultural heritage market, and very hig-rez products, and any crop-sensor users will be told to upgrade or write off their "investment".

Considering that Hassy has both the multi-shot 400mp camera and the cheap X1D with a 100mp X2D around the corner that will most probably address the few issues of the X1D, the segments where P1 offer a unique competitive value are shrinking fast.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on April 28, 2018, 03:50:18 am

I could only find two IQ 100 listings, but my eBay search skills may not be as fine tuned as some. And the listings I saw were from Camera West, who is known more for Leica, and is only a recent addition to Phase One dealership, and Kurland Photo, who is not even a Phase One dealer. As one of the most prominent dealers in the world, Capture Integration does not list Phase One systems on eBay, nor do we have any need to (the only exception being the very rare poor cosmetic version of a trade in product, I believe this has happened perhaps twice in my 9 years of experience at CI).


Steve Hendrix/CI

one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-IQ3-100MP-Camera-Kit-80mm-Lens-152-clicks-Absolutely-LN/253526371585?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D253526371585&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

two
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-IQ3-100-Trichromatic-Set-Boxed/282902324304?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D282902324304&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

three
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phaseone-IQ3-100-MP-Boitier-XF-Schneider-Kreuznach-80mm/232740895252?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D232740895252&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

four
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-with-IQ3-29518-1/282540966303?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D282540966303&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: henrikfoto on April 28, 2018, 04:26:53 am
I think these «prices» will change a lot the next year..
After using gfx50s for some time now I wonder how they can still dream of these prices.
Fujifilm have made a very nice system. I have used most Phase/mamiya lenses. Also the newest bluering.
Fujifilm is at lest as good!  For me it is better!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 28, 2018, 10:06:45 am
Hi,

No doubt that Fuji made a good job, congrats to Fuji. Hasselblad around with the X1D.

Could be a real shake up for traditional MFD.

Best regards
Erik


I think these «prices» will change a lot the next year..
After using gfx50s for some time now I wonder how they can still dream of these prices.
Fujifilm have made a very nice system. I have used most Phase/mamiya lenses. Also the newest bluering.
Fujifilm is at lest as good!  For me it is better!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 28, 2018, 10:48:56 am
Considering that Hassy has both the multi-shot 400mp camera and the cheap X1D with a 100mp X2D around the corner that will most probably address the few issues of the X1D, the segments where P1 offer a unique competitive value are shrinking fast.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, you know how to take pictures. But imagine you are running a museum digital capture division, in one of those "foundation-financed" places  and have a  bunch of nice young men and ladies with the right connections who went to art history courses at a prime university working for you, mostly not really "hires" but people who just got slotted in. Choose between getting some cameras, comps, lights etc and watching this whole new thing slowly grind its way into competency, or get  a whole batch of Phase units, with copying stands and lights, and software etc, and above all a local rep who will hold the hands of your semi-qualified staff, answer their phone calls, tell you what training they need, run a Capture course and find you a competent and user-friendly Photoshop trainer, send in a "technician" or "consultant" to help with a job under deadline,  and provide you with an aura of competency... do you still care about the price? Of course not, it's "donor money". It's easier for your boss to get a few million dollars with a phone call than for you to spend another two months teaching kids about lighting, or worrying how to buy the right footswitch on Amazon.

You Bernard may get better pix today from a Hassy 400MP back, even Doug and Steve won't debate the high resolution and absence of colour aliasing of that camera, but What Phase is selling is really the rep, the extra button on the camera which calls the photographic concierge service.
 
If what one wants is a 50MP camera to drop in a backpack and take on a trip, or a specialist who knows his way around and wants value for money,  then Phase One is clearly not it any more.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2018, 02:17:07 pm
Edmund,

I am firm believer in the value of service, but everything P1 and their partners propose can also be done with a 400mp Hassy multi-shot, only with better image quality and, much more importantly from a preservation standpoint, with better color fidelity.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on April 28, 2018, 03:34:50 pm

" imagine you are running a museum digital capture division, in one of those "foundation-financed" places  and have a  bunch of nice young men and ladies with the right connections who went to art history courses at a prime university working for you, mostly not really "hires" but people who just got slotted in. Choose between getting some cameras, comps, lights etc and watching this whole new thing slowly grind its way into competency, or get  a whole batch of Phase units, with copying stands and lights, and software etc, and above all a local rep who will hold the hands of your semi-qualified staff, answer their phone calls, tell you what training they need, run a Capture course and find you a competent and user-friendly Photoshop trainer, send in a "technician" or "consultant" to help with a job under deadline,  and provide you with an aura of competency... do you still care about the price? Of course not, it's "donor money". It's easier for your boss to get a few million dollars with a phone call than for you to spend another two months teaching kids about lighting, or worrying how to buy the right footswitch on Amazon.

You Bernard may get better pix today from a Hassy 400MP back, even Doug and Steve won't debate the high resolution and absence of colour aliasing of that camera, but What Phase is selling is really the rep, the extra button on the camera which calls the photographic concierge service."

Edmund

That's a fine bit of screenwriting!

I'm in a fix, don't have P1 or any other MF system but, I still think you are the man to help! Let me explain. I have finished both Engrenages as well as Braquo, the complete sets of series of both, and the parting tension in both is killing me.

I have no way of knowing when - or even if - either will progress further to a fresh, resolving the issues they left unresolved, series (this may just be a delicious French sense of sadism at play!) so perhaps you could write a short, convincing final episode for both?

S'il vous plait?

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 28, 2018, 04:05:59 pm
Edmund,

I am firm believer in the value of service, but everything P1 and their partners propose can also be done with a 400mp Hassy multi-shot, only with better image quality and, much more importantly from a preservation standpoint, with better color fidelity.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard I completely defer to your opinions on the equipment. And Phase know it too, so they are really smart and they target the "money no object" crowd, who want their shoes shined, not shoeshine cream. For the culture crowd, it's all about integration of the solution, the service etc, especially since they often have to work with an existing staff. I know this situation because I've dealt with them - those who use stuff don't decide what they use, nor necessarily know how to use it.  Those who decide what gets bought have no say on who gets hired to use it.

There are 8 Phase backs listed on the first page of the For Sale forum here, so obviously something is eating into their desirability for general photographic use.

By the way, I enjoy shining my shoes. I do it rarely but I find it very relaxing.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 28, 2018, 04:09:53 pm
That's a fine bit of screenwriting!

I'm in a fix, don't have P1 or any other MF system but, I still think you are the man to help! Let me explain. I have finished both Engrenages as well as Braquo, the complete sets of series of both, and the parting tension in both is killing me.

I have no way of knowing when - or even if - either will progress further to a fresh, resolving the issues they left unresolved, series (this may just be a delicious French sense of sadism at play!) so perhaps you could write a short, convincing final episode for both?

S'il vous plait?

Rob

Rob,

 I recommend the old Nestor Burma films. Can't be beat for atmosphere, I just bought a bunch of them at a garage sale.

 Here is a typical example
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fTKwJF6Lc

Edmund

 
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: KLaban on April 28, 2018, 04:25:28 pm
Rob

The Bridge, season 4, BBC2, 11th May.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 28, 2018, 05:06:04 pm
Rob

The Bridge, season 4, BBC2, 11th May.

Rob, I also recommend Deadwood if you haven't watched it yet.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348914/

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JLook on April 28, 2018, 07:27:35 pm
I am firm believer in the value of service, but everything P1 and their partners propose can also be done with a 400mp Hassy multi-shot, only with better image quality and, much more importantly from a preservation standpoint, with better color fidelity.

I have tested both, the Hasselblad H6D-400c Multi-shot and the Phase One Trichromatic and for my work the Phase One is the one with better colors and image quality.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on April 29, 2018, 05:27:43 am
I'm not sure anyone is questioning how good the Phase One image quality is.

It's just that there is a lot more to choosing a camera these days than absolute image quality when nearly everything on offer already gives good enough quality in smaller, cheaper, faster, and arguably better all round packages. Despite what a salesman might tell you.

There was a time when there was no other choice if you wanted a particular kind of quality. That's just no longer the case any more.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2018, 07:30:24 am
I have tested both, the Hasselblad H6D-400c Multi-shot and the Phase One Trichromatic and for my work the Phase One is the one with better colors and image quality.

If I may ask, what kind of work do you do?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: bjanes on April 29, 2018, 08:21:13 am
I have tested both, the Hasselblad H6D-400c Multi-shot and the Phase One Trichromatic and for my work the Phase One is the one with better colors and image quality.

If I may ask, what kind of work do you do?

Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

Bill
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 08:41:38 am
Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

Bill

One can easily pixel shift with anything these days.
If you just take 20 or so shots off a tripod with the Phase back you can probably average them out into a really good composite.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0727694641/here-s-how-to-pixel-shift-with-any-camera

 ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JLook on April 29, 2018, 09:17:54 am
Also, your test methodology and results of your tests would be helpful. Color is considerably affected by the profiles used in raw conversion and the raw converters themselves, and it would be of interest to learn what profiles and raw converters you used.

I do a lot of jewelry and some fashion photography.
I used Capture One and Phocus.
I did the tests with a mix of jewelry where the colors are usually not so easy to get. And the color of a stone in jewelry can sometimes make a $100k price difference.
I was surprised that the Phase One was a lot closer to the original colors because I thought the Hasselblad should be better with the multi shot. But it was not. I was showing the photos to the client I had the jewelry from together with photos of other cameras I did the test with (two other Phase Ones, Canon 5Ds R, Nikon D850) and she pointed immediately to the photo of the Trichromatic.
So just a test with the work I do and the way I work.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 29, 2018, 01:08:45 pm
Multishot capture* has no bearing on overall Color Accuracy. None.

You actually have to try pretty hard to create the niche conditions where multishot has any impact on color at all; you need a strongly saturated subject whose color changes sharply on a per pixel basis; for example, think of shooting a table full of marbles from such a height that each marble was exactly one pixel in size.

I think a lot misunderstanding from this topic comes from history. Hasselblad and Sinar, to their credit, have cared about neutral color reproduction for a long time and both companies also made multishot backs, so “multishot” and “Color accuracy” were conflated in the minds of users. Phase One only really started focusing on the minutia of Color accuracy (eg museums and libraries) in the last decade. In my (biased) option they have taken the lead during that time as evidenced by Capture One CH edition, the Trichromatic, and their very long list of Museum and Library clients.

Multishot CAN improve resolution, assuming lens, aperture, focus, subject flatness and other factors like vibration are very tightly controlled. The other generally accepted method to do so is to stitch the subject in multiple captures. Both techniques have their pros and cons, though in my biased opinion, the option to move the camera or subject rather than sensor becomes preferential for practical reasons once you’re in the 60-80mp range.

*here I mean the type of multishot capture where you move the sensor
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2018, 01:14:14 pm
Very interesting, thank you for the answer,

I assume you opened the files in Photoshop side to side and showed them on screen to your client?

I am currently considering replacing my aging Nec and color profiling solution. Would you mind sharing what you are using on both fronts to manage such super critical color work?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JLook on April 29, 2018, 01:33:44 pm
I assume you opened the files in Photoshop side to side and showed them on screen to your client?

I did two separate tests on different days. The first without the Hasselblad where I had all of them open in Capture One.

The second one was just the Phase One agains the Hasselblad where I showed them in Capture One and Phocus but I also made a Photoshop Version with them next to each other.

Quote
I am currently considering replacing my aging Nec and color profiling solution. Would you mind sharing what you are using on both fronts to manage such super critical color work?

I use Profoto Lights (Pro 8A) to have a good color consistency and a 4K NEC Monitor.
When it comes to spending a lot of extra work with separate profiles I am maybe a little bit naive that I believe when the back, the camera, the lens and the RAW converter are all from the same manufacture the colors should already be as good as possible in the software without the need of extra profiles.
That is for me the case with the Trichromatic and I have done now a couple of jobs with the new back and my clients are very happy.


Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: bjanes on April 29, 2018, 01:37:37 pm
One can easily pixel shift with anything these days.
If you just take 20 or so shots off a tripod with the Phase back you can probably average them out into a really good composite.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0727694641/here-s-how-to-pixel-shift-with-any-camera

Emund,

Thanks for the link. I was aware of super resolution using PhotoAcute, but it is no longer being supported and the Photoshop option looks interesting and worth a try. With my Nikon D850 I could use a continuous mode and try silent live view photography to avoid shutter/mirror vibration. However, I would think that true pixel shift would be superior. A Medium format option would not be practical for me.

Regards,

Bill
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 01:49:42 pm
Emund,

Thanks for the link. I was aware of super resolution using PhotoAcute, but it is no longer being supported and the Photoshop option looks interesting and worth a try. With my Nikon D850 I could use a continuous mode and try silent live view photography to avoid shutter/mirror vibration. However, I would think that true pixel shift would be superior. A Medium format option would not be practical for me.

Regards,

Bill

To my astonishment, I've found a bunch of people have been doing this this, Google "superresolution photohsop". As you state, running silent liveview capture would be one of the best ways to get the images. I think another application would be low-light photography.

Here is an action I located, I don't know exactly what it does, but it doesn't look malicious. There are plenty of others.

http://sdp.io/superres

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 01:58:04 pm
In the past, multishot was recommended as worthwhile for jewellery photography specifically. I find it remarkable to be told now that all that was hype. Who knew?


Edmund


Multishot capture* has no bearing on overall Color Accuracy. None.

You actually have to try pretty hard to create the niche conditions where multishot has any impact on color at all; you need a strongly saturated subject whose color changes sharply on a per pixel basis; for example, think of shooting a table full of marbles from such a height that each marble was exactly one pixel in size.

I think a lot misunderstanding from this topic comes from history. Hasselblad and Sinar, to their credit, have cared about neutral color reproduction for a long time and both companies also made multishot backs, so “multishot” and “Color accuracy” were conflated in the minds of users. Phase One only really started focusing on the minutia of Color accuracy (eg museums and libraries) in the last decade. In my (biased) option they have taken the lead during that time as evidenced by Capture One CH edition, the Trichromatic, and their very long list of Museum and Library clients.

Multishot CAN improve resolution, assuming lens, aperture, focus, subject flatness and other factors like vibration are very tightly controlled. The other generally accepted method to do so is to stitch the subject in multiple captures. Both techniques have their pros and cons, though in my biased opinion, the option to move the camera or subject rather than sensor becomes preferential for practical reasons once you’re in the 60-80mp range.

*here I mean the type of multishot capture where you move the sensor
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2018, 02:03:33 pm
In the past, multishot was recommended as worthwhile for jewellery photography specifically. I find it remarkable to be told now that all that was hype. Who knew?

Then again we were once told that P1 backs had 6 stops more DR than DSLRs only to find out that the best DSLRs had in fact more DR... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2018, 02:08:28 pm
The topic of color consistency with flash output when using multishot is one that may have to be looked into.

All the people I heard use multi-shot were using Broncolor strobes due to the best in class output color stability across shots.

Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 02:10:57 pm
The topic of color consistency with flash output when using multishot is one that may have to be looked into.

All the people I heard use multi-shot were using Broncolor strobes due to the best in class output color stability across shots.

Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, this was always the issue; however with the new-gen CMOS sensors and LED lights available continuous lighting might be feasible.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JLook on April 29, 2018, 02:15:02 pm
Is someone aware of a good documented test comparing older profoto power packs with Broncolor?

What is old for you?
With the Profoto Pro-8a it is ±40°K flash to flash
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2018, 02:38:54 pm
What is old for you?
With the Profoto Pro-8a it is ±40°K flash to flash

Anything older than a Pro-10 really.

Specs and actual measurements are 2 different things, especially as the pack and head gets a lot of use.

I am just wondering whether these is available data.

With MS strange things can happen since each RGB value is exposed at a different flash instance.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: JLook on April 29, 2018, 02:46:48 pm
Specs and actual measurements are 2 different things, especially as the pack and head gets a lot of use.

I do a lot of focus stacking where I would see it and never had problems with them.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 29, 2018, 02:48:20 pm
Yes, this was always the issue; however with the new-gen CMOS sensors and LED lights available continuous lighting might be feasible.

I'm using continuous lighting more and more. However, I've yet to find a LED photo light without a spike in the blue part of the spectrum. I'm measuring 18-patch CRIs in the mid-nineties, but I still worry.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 29, 2018, 03:18:27 pm
I'm using continuous lighting more and more. However, I've yet to find a LED photo light without a spike in the blue part of the spectrum. I'm measuring 18-patch CRIs in the mid-nineties, but I still worry.

Jim

DT Photon LED Lighting for Cultural Heritage. 98 CRI-14 and 98 CQS

Spectrum discussed here:
https://dtdch.com/cultural-heritage-webinars/lighting-cultural-heritage/
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on April 29, 2018, 03:34:25 pm
Rob, I also recommend Deadwood if you haven't watched it yet.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348914/

Edmund

Thanks, Edmund and Keith, for your suggestions, but they show you have been on photo websites too long: you are actually suggesting my answer lies in changing brands? It's the EngreBracquo situation I need resolved! Switching's for pussies!

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: KLaban on April 29, 2018, 04:34:52 pm
Thanks, Edmund and Keith, for your suggestions, but they show you have been on photo websites too long: you are actually suggesting my answer lies in changing brands? It's the EngreBracquo situation I need resolved! Switching's for pussies!

;-)

Rob

Rob, if I remember correctly Pussy was killed off in series 2.

;-)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 29, 2018, 05:01:57 pm
DT Photon LED Lighting for Cultural Heritage. 98 CRI-14 and 98 CQS

Spectrum discussed here:
https://dtdch.com/cultural-heritage-webinars/lighting-cultural-heritage/

Gotcha, but I was talking about lights suitable for normal studio use, and I don't think these are going to do me much good. I need to be able to use standard light modifiers.

I didn't sit through the whole hour and fifteen-minute video. Actually, I couldn't sand more than a few minutes, so I didn't see the spectrum. I did find the web page that describes the lights.

Thanks.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 29, 2018, 05:46:46 pm
one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-IQ3-100MP-Camera-Kit-80mm-Lens-152-clicks-Absolutely-LN/253526371585?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D253526371585&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

two
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-IQ3-100-Trichromatic-Set-Boxed/282902324304?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D282902324304&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

three
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phaseone-IQ3-100-MP-Boitier-XF-Schneider-Kreuznach-80mm/232740895252?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D232740895252&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1

four
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-One-XF-with-IQ3-29518-1/282540966303?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51001%26meid%3D3deabf648e0d490d9d564186bd335c2a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D253526371585%26itm%3D282540966303&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A74139bf2-4ab8-11e8-a159-74dbd180a142%7Cparentrq%3A0b38f2c61630a86bde2e173dffffb484%7Ciid%3A1


Thanks Bo. I didn't do so bad, the 2 Phase One IQ3 100 listings I found in the USA were the ones you cited.

But again, in the USA, one listing from a non Phase One dealer, probably took a trade in toward something and isn't comfortable selling it directly, and the second from  legacy Leica dealer, probably the same situation. And perhaps at least one of those dealers in the UK also a Leica dealer.

There are also 26 Hasselblad X1D listings on eBay.

None of this really means anything. You've always been able to find high end digital capture products on eBay.



Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 05:56:30 pm
Gotcha, but I was talking about lights suitable for normal studio use, and I don't think these are going to do me much good. I need to be able to use standard light modifiers.

I didn't sit through the whole hour and fifteen-minute video. Actually, I couldn't sand more than a few minutes, so I didn't see the spectrum. I did find the web page that describes the lights.

Thanks.

Jim

Jim,

 If you are in the studio, and your subjects are not fragile I would recommend tungsten, from a flash brand eg, Elinchrom so you can use modifiers modifiers.
 The spectrum is smooth, a color transform usually takes care of tungsten's low CT, and you can always stick a filter on the camera.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2018, 05:59:20 pm
Rob, if I remember correctly Pussy was killed off in series 2.

;-)

Deleted the obvious joke lifted from the Press Dinner

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: DiamondsDr on April 29, 2018, 09:15:09 pm
I do a lot of jewelry and some fashion photography.
I used Capture One and Phocus.
I did the tests with a mix of jewelry where the colors are usually not so easy to get. And the color of a stone in jewelry can sometimes make a $100k price difference.
I was surprised that the Phase One was a lot closer to the original colors because I thought the Hasselblad should be better with the multi shot. But it was not. I was showing the photos to the client I had the jewelry from together with photos of other cameras I did the test with (two other Phase Ones, Canon 5Ds R, Nikon D850) and she pointed immediately to the photo of the Trichromatic.
So just a test with the work I do and the way I work.
Hi i also shoot mostly jewelry and gems, in my experience with gems due their properties the multishot not necessarily helps, nor any of the cameras listed would get right on the spot, while trichromatic might get you closer to the point, but still you would have to manually adjust the colors in the software of your choice, the main advantage of the MF i see in the hue transitions...as of lighting i'm using profoto 7A powerpack and didn't have any troubles in focus stacking work...
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on April 30, 2018, 01:55:49 am
I didn't sit through the whole hour and fifteen-minute video. Actually, I couldn't sand more than a few minutes, so I didn't see the spectrum.

Ditto. I am not going to watch over an hour of video to get info about a product. Is there a direct link to a datasheet with the spectrum, please?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on April 30, 2018, 03:37:05 am
Rob, if I remember correctly Pussy was killed off in series 2.

;-)

You are confusing Italians with Frenchmen, New Jersey for Paris!

*These are testing times!(

>/(

The above is code for what happens when you write using the keyboard set for English, when it's actually designed to be Spanish.

That may provide the sole reasonable reason I have found for Brexit.

;-)  (Reset for Spanish.)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on April 30, 2018, 03:41:24 am

Thanks Bo. I didn't do so bad, the 2 Phase One IQ3 100 listings I found in the USA were the ones you cited.

But again, in the USA, one listing from a non Phase One dealer, probably took a trade in toward something and isn't comfortable selling it directly, and the second from  legacy Leica dealer, probably the same situation. And perhaps at least one of those dealers in the UK also a Leica dealer.

There are also 26 Hasselblad X1D listings on eBay.

None of this really means anything. You've always been able to find high end digital capture products on eBay.



Steve Hendrix/CI

It does mean something - that is what the thread is about. The point is that these have all gone online very recently. There haven't been any 100's on ebay at all up until very recently. I've never seen so many Phase One backs being sold that are "like new" or near mint. That's not just ebay. It appears they are being offloaded in outside channels to either make way for a new system and also because people are speculating that there is trouble at Phase One given the current environment and trend for mirrorless.

There are more X1D's because the price is relatively much lower and they are more common. The X1D appears to being sold off in the same manner, prices slashed, with a new model rumoured to be coming.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 30, 2018, 05:45:06 am
Gotcha, but I was talking about lights suitable for normal studio use, and I don't think these are going to do me much good. I need to be able to use standard light modifiers.

Agreed. These are for art reproduction, not general studio use.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: yaya on April 30, 2018, 09:00:32 am
Well...Phase One new iXM (https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx)

I guess making the 1st 100MP BSI sensor camera has kept us busy  ;)

BR

Yair
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: dchew on April 30, 2018, 09:01:31 am
There haven't been any 100's on ebay at all up until very recently.

That is not true. I bought mine (from a dealer) in June of 2016 and there were 3 on eBay way back then.

Dave
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 30, 2018, 10:25:30 am
If you are in the studio, and your subjects are not fragile I would recommend tungsten, from a flash brand eg, Elinchrom so you can use modifiers.
 The spectrum is smooth, a color transform usually takes care of tungsten's low CT, and you can always stick a filter on the camera.

I agree about the upside of incandescent light. I just can no longer stand the heat (so I've gotten out of the kitchen, as the saying goes). I'm even getting rid of strobes that use incandescent modeling lights so I don't have to worry about overheating the strobes with some modifiers.   I do stick my spectrophotometer under every new LED I get, though.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 30, 2018, 01:01:01 pm
It does mean something - that is what the thread is about. The point is that these have all gone online very recently. There haven't been any 100's on ebay at all up until very recently. I've never seen so many Phase One backs being sold that are "like new" or near mint. That's not just ebay. It appears they are being offloaded in outside channels to either make way for a new system and also because people are speculating that there is trouble at Phase One given the current environment and trend for mirrorless.

There are more X1D's because the price is relatively much lower and they are more common. The X1D appears to being sold off in the same manner, prices slashed, with a new model rumoured to be coming.




The (2) USA and (2) UK sellers you've referenced on eBay - 3 of whom who are not even authorized Phase One dealers - don't indicate anything at all. And, as Dave noted, 100mp products have been seen on eBay before now.

I can tell you that the 2 largest dealers in the USA (and among the top 2-3 in the world) are selling IQ1/IQ3 100 product the same way we always have, directly, with our existing and prospective clients.

Photokina is in September. It's been over 2 years since the original Phase One 100mp model shipped. It has been over a year since X1D models began shipping. There have been published reports of new sensors from Sony.

Isn't it logical that a new model bearing a new sensor would be along at some point? Perhaps later this year, perhaps next year. There is no news here or anything unusual about this. How one goes from 1 single authorized dealer with 1 IQ3 100 listed on eBay meaning Phase One has financial troubles is something for sewing circle specialists.


Steve Hendrix/CI



 
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: tcdeveau on April 30, 2018, 02:19:53 pm
Well...Phase One new iXM (https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx)

I guess making the 1st 100MP BSI sensor camera has kept us busy  ;)

BR

Yair

Wait...hold on....100mp, 33x44mm, and BSI?  If so, I'm guessing this is the first camera out there with one of the new sony chips they teased us on the roadmap?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 30, 2018, 02:40:53 pm
Hi,

It seems so, and storage is XQD. Possibly paired up with some new lens technology.

Now, just add an EVF and some decent autofocus...

Best regards
Erik


Wait...hold on....100mp, 33x44mm, and BSI?  If so, I'm guessing this is the first camera out there with one of the new sony chips they teased us on the roadmap?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 30, 2018, 02:43:36 pm
Well...Phase One new iXM (https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx)

I guess making the 1st 100MP BSI sensor camera has kept us busy  ;)

Are you using the IMX461?

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 30, 2018, 02:47:53 pm
Seems so...

Best regards
Erik


Are you using the IMX461?

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 30, 2018, 08:19:58 pm
Wait...hold on....100mp, 33x44mm, and BSI?  If so, I'm guessing this is the first camera out there with one of the new sony chips they teased us on the roadmap?

Seems so...

Correct.

Yet another first claimed by Team Phase One, owed to its significant investment in R+D over the past decade.

For those keeping track at home (get out your bingo cards), using ship dates:
- First with long exposures
- First to 60mp
- First to 80mp
- First to MF CMOS*
- First to 100mp
- First to MF BSI

And those are just the modern sensor-based examples of firsts :).

Do note, that the iXM 100mp is quite specific to industrial applications such as aerial mapping. You won't be shooting selfies, cats, or landscape images with it anytime soon. And it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product. It's typically much easier to incorporate new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: hubell on April 30, 2018, 10:12:16 pm
Who cares? Phase may be first to market with a product for a totally niche market with nosebleed pricing, which sort of confirms where Phase is headed. However, it may very well be last to market with an actual camera that uses the new sensor and that photographers want to buy. Perhaps never to market.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on April 30, 2018, 10:30:53 pm
Who cares? Phase may be first to market with a product for a totally niche market with nosebleed pricing, which sort of confirms where Phase is headed. However, it may very well be last to market with an actual camera that uses the new sensor and that photographers want to buy. Perhaps never to market.

We're being very antiPhase here. It would be easier to just state that Pentax, Fuji and Hassy are now selling well below the Phase pricepoint, and the more units they sell, the more they will be getting the best chips.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 30, 2018, 11:08:41 pm
We're being very antiPhase here. It would be easier to just state that Pentax, Fuji and Hassy are now selling well below the Phase pricepoint, and the more units they sell, the more they will be getting the best chips.

I don’t think so.

P1 has chosen a business model that apparently works for them and that model means they are not interested in serving 99.99% of the market.

Other manufacturers have chosen to address 0.1% of the market instead of 0.01%, it is only natural that they get more praise from the 10 times more numerous users.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 01, 2018, 07:50:41 am
I don’t think so.

P1 has chosen a business model that apparently works for them and that model means they are not interested in serving 99.99% of the market.

Other manufacturers have chosen to address 0.1% of the market instead of 0.01%, it is only natural that they get more praise from the 10 times more numerous users.

Cheers,
Bernard


There's nothing wrong with the Phase products, but they're now increasingly out of tune with the individual market on price and model range. Individual photographers may wish for mirrorless and video, but not for aerial mount.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of photographers with Phase systems aren't just dumping Phase while they still can and moving to Fuji, getting a cheap and modern camera in a tradeoff.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 01, 2018, 09:57:11 am
I haven't read anyone being anti-Phase one, people are just making observations. I have been a Phase One owner for a long time and up until recently I wouldn't have considered other brands.

I am seriously considering changing things up for the first time in a long time because I don't feel that what Phase One has to offer, over and above the alternatives, is reflected in the cost of the investment or even that useful anymore. Moderate gains in colour and some extra pixels is not going to cut it. I see that old paradigm as a bit of a hinderance now and I see what Hasselblad and Fuji are doing with the X1D and GFX as far more useful and exciting. That's where the attention is, that's what people are excited by and buying in large quantities and that's where we're going to see developments in lenses and the rest of the system. It's like the attention of 35mm with the imaging potential of Medium Format. Medium Format has outgrown the mirror and there is a lot more on offer and a lot more potential in what mirrorless can deliver. The fact that these options are times cheaper is even better and makes it even more enticing.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Weldon Brewster on May 01, 2018, 11:37:43 am
Sigh, we seem to have a weekly 'sky is falling' thread for some camera brand or another. Phase One along with Sony/Canon/Nikon/etc. are just fine.  I think at this moment we live in a golden age of photo technology.  Basically anything you buy will outperform the cameras from ten years ago.

I've been a commercial photographer for 31 years and I'm completely agnostic when it comes to cameras.  I don't believe they are fetish items just tools that I use for my work.  Just like a cement mixer or a drill.  People seldom get in passionate disagreements over cement mixers :-)

I have always maintained 3 camera systems: small format, medium format and large format.  Using the right tool for a particular job.  Right now that's Fuji/Sony/Phase One.  The common thread is everything has to go thru Capture One.

As a long time customer when I purchased my Trichromatic earlier this year Phase One took care of me.  I got a very fair price on my trade in and the cost was not that bad.  If you look at other industries, photo gear is actually pretty cheap.  Try pricing a kitted out plumbers truck for example.  Phase One also seems to be somewhat malaligned on the 'Medium Format/Film/Digital Backs and Large Sensor Photography' forum and I'm not sure why.  The XF is a remarkable camera and all the IQ backs are really good.  (I say the same thing about the flagship products from Sony/Canon/Nikon)  Anyway, my two cents.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 01, 2018, 12:27:20 pm
Correct.

Yet another first claimed by Team Phase One, owed to its significant investment in R+D over the past decade.

For those keeping track at home (get out your bingo cards), using ship dates:
- First with long exposures
- First to 60mp
- First to 80mp
- First to MF CMOS*
- First to 100mp
- First to MF BSI

And those are just the modern sensor-based examples of firsts :).

Do note, that the iXM 100mp is quite specific to industrial applications such as aerial mapping. You won't be shooting selfies, cats, or landscape images with it anytime soon. And it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product. It's typically much easier to incorporate new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
that is a very strange claim to me....the first to come out with a camera that very few people can actually use or want....
and we all know that all those pesky requirements have been worked out just fine by other companies....which will sell the same IQ WITH all those pesky requirements for a fraction of the camera that nobody can or will want to use.....

in other words: if being first comes with selling a very limited box of a camera for 40K only to see fuji and hasselblad (neither of which are newcomers) come in 6 months later to sell a full featured product that can take selfies for 15K (or 10?), i honestly do not see the point at all.....

goes along with the philosophy that refuses to welcome GFX or X1D users into the capture one software world...competition? the gfx and x1d did not kill the digital back market, high end DSLR/mirrorless did, all of which are supported.....
all this R&D....i thought sony (and others before) make the sensors? i get it, everybody mixes their special sauce....but again, so does fuji and hasselblad....with the same sensor.....which is built by sony.....and adobe happily supports everything....because, why not?

i really wish phase best of luck, as a consumer I want as many strong players as possible.....in the end it comes down to how much IQ/$ and how much functionality to in need or get with it.....which is a different calculation for everybody....and as a 2 time phase back customer myself, IMO that calculation is getting out of whack....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: jduncan on May 01, 2018, 05:21:13 pm
And all those poping up are mostly CMOS based IQ backs.

As if some guys had insider information about something about to happen. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi,

Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Best regards,


Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 01, 2018, 05:48:16 pm
Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Excactly! 😀

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 01, 2018, 06:59:23 pm
Hi,

Maybe they have 150 million reasons or a mirrorless reason?
When are we going to know Bernard?  :)

Best regards,

Yes, but Fuji are also due to release some new MF bodies, so why isn't everyone dumping their Fuji gear?

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Joe Towner on May 01, 2018, 08:30:01 pm
Congrats to Team Phase, this means the 33x44 100mp chip is shipping in enough numbers that you can start selling it.  3fps, 4k video, 10gb ethernet - what else could someone want!  50ms sync in an array - wow - would be interested to see what a 4x4 of these would capture, or a 360 ring with the 35mm RSM lenses in the middle of a stadium.

I REALLY hope the XQD/CFexpress is the local storage format for all future IQ backs.

Can't wait to see the new chip in a 'how the *?@#! do we tell them apart IQ3 100mp kit.  Next up is the 150mp 54x40 chips!



Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 02, 2018, 04:49:58 am
Congrats to Team Phase, this means the 33x44 100mp chip is shipping in enough numbers that you can start selling it.  3fps, 4k video, 10gb ethernet - what else could someone want!  50ms sync in an array - wow - would be interested to see what a 4x4 of these would capture, or a 360 ring with the 35mm RSM lenses in the middle of a stadium.

I REALLY hope the XQD/CFexpress is the local storage format for all future IQ backs.

Can't wait to see the new chip in a 'how the *?@#! do we tell them apart IQ3 100mp kit.  Next up is the 150mp 54x40 chips!

Congrats to Team Sony for supplying the whole medium format industry with sensors, and relentlessly driving the tech forward, allowing photographers to buy a new "most resolving" camera every two years.

Edmund

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: uaiomex on May 02, 2018, 01:00:48 pm
That's exactly what I was thinking. Before Sony, MF seemed to languish eternally. Even I caught once and then (if I remember well) that MF back manufacturers wished sensor maker could go faster.
Now with Sony, I'm under the impression that things go too fast at least for some buyers.

Nevertheless, thanks Sony for stepping into sensor fabrication and camera equipment with so much gusto and enthusiasm.
Full domination in the sensor biz will end in a monopoly.
Samsung please!
 

Congrats to Team Sony for supplying the whole medium format industry with sensors, and relentlessly driving the tech forward, allowing photographers to buy a new "most resolving" camera every two years.

Edmund

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 02, 2018, 03:42:18 pm
Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik



That's exactly what I was thinking. Before Sony, MF seemed to languish eternally. Even I caught once and then (if I remember well) that MF back manufacturers wished sensor maker could go faster.
Now with Sony, I'm under the impression that things go too fast at least for some buyers.

Nevertheless, thanks Sony for stepping into sensor fabrication and camera equipment with so much gusto and enthusiasm.
Full domination in the sensor biz will end in a monopoly.
Samsung please!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Endeavour on May 02, 2018, 05:47:57 pm
On the subject of Capture One

Maybe we should see C1 spun off into its own stand alone product. I would gladly pay for a C1 which supported both my P1 and Hassy formats.

Although its easy to shoot the idea down as never going to happen, and talking about P1's business model - history is littered with many very successful tech & software companies who failed because they tried to force specific hardware constraints on their customers.

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 02, 2018, 08:16:26 pm
Erik,

 I think you're right, Hassy and Fuji have created a new market.

Edmund

Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

  • Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji build relatively affordable camera systems around the 44x33 CMOS sensor.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji designed the system around the 44x33 mm 100 MP sensor, that means that they could make use of scaling benefits and the lens system is a good fit for the smaller sensor size.
  • Hasselblad, Fuji and Pentax sell all trough the usual channels.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji are probably selling in relatively high volumes. So they swap high earning per unit for decent earnings at a higher volume. Which means higher investments in production capacity.
So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 02, 2018, 10:39:23 pm
Although its easy to shoot the idea down as never going to happen, and talking about P1's business model - history is littered with many very successful tech & software companies who failed because they tried to force specific hardware constraints on their customers.

And one whose market cap as of May 01, 2018 is $858,020,000,000.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 02, 2018, 10:43:08 pm
Hi,

I would say that Sony does as good deal of the R&D work. We may keep in mind than CMOS sensors deliver raw (or possibly rare) data out of the sensor. So, it is the sensor maker who decides image quality.

What happens now is that:

  • Hasselblad, Pentax and Fuji build relatively affordable camera systems around the 44x33 CMOS sensor.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji designed the system around the 44x33 mm 100 MP sensor, that means that they could make use of scaling benefits and the lens system is a good fit for the smaller sensor size.
  • Hasselblad, Fuji and Pentax sell all trough the usual channels.
  • Hasselblad and Fuji are probably selling in relatively high volumes. So they swap high earning per unit for decent earnings at a higher volume. Which means higher investments in production capacity.
So, that means that Hasselblad and Fuji established a new and different market.

But, Pentax has been around at decent prices for a long time without affecting Phase One or Hasselblad. But, Hasselblad probably would not be around without X1D and the DJI money.

If and how it affects Phase One is hard to say. Phase One may have a different business model. We have to wait and see. But having more competition and affordable prices is a good thing for photographers shooting MFD. Personally, I would not be surprised if Phase One focused more on full frame MFD, meaning the 150 MP 54x40 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik

lets also not forget that fuji sells a ton of smaller cameras AND makes their own lenses.....being able to apply their own existing tech and keep pushing forward and still treat the entire GFX line as a high end "gloss" line is huge....being able to make excellent glass and sell it at prices competitive to DSLR glass is another huge plus....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 03, 2018, 10:06:59 am
lets also not forget that fuji sells a ton of smaller cameras AND makes their own lenses.....being able to apply their own existing tech and keep pushing forward and still treat the entire GFX line as a high end "gloss" line is huge....being able to make excellent glass and sell it at prices competitive to DSLR glass is another huge plus....
But that was already part of Fuji's DNA. They have been making good glasses at optimum price/perf for the film and broadcast industry since the eon's age.
It seems that it is a company that has a special skill to make the best products at best cost/effectiveness.
In a way, their current business model is not surprizing as it follows what they have been doing, but it is remarkable
And in tune with the sign of the time.

For what I've heard from Fuji's owner, they also are very dynamic in improving
Constantly their products with numerous firmware updates, a sport in which Sony is not good at,
To the point (I don't know if it is true or an exageration) that a Fuji product with the latest firmwares is like
A completly new model at no extra cost.
So they also seem to know how to settle their clientelle, keeping people happy.

(Pentax was good at that too (quality-price) but Pentax or Ricoh ignores mirrorless and ignores video, condemning themselves into a narrower niche).
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 03, 2018, 11:45:53 am
For what I've heard from Fuji's owner, they also are very dynamic in improving
Constantly their products with numerous firmware updates, a sport in which Sony is not good at,
To the point (I don't know if it is true or an exageration) that a Fuji product with the latest firmwares is like
A completly new model at no extra cost.
So they also seem to know how to settle their clientelle, keeping people happy.


It's true. I have an original X100, it's out of this world with the latest firmware.
It's a camera that unproblematically takes good pictures.
If you have 350 Euros and need a carry around for the occasions when it has to be a real camera and not a phone, get one on the used market.

Edmund

Edmund
Title: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: now the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BJL on May 08, 2018, 06:07:35 pm
Doug,

   About the Sony sensor apparently used in the new Phase One iXM, you say:
... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.
If  by "unclear" you mean "not yet a completely proven fact" I agree, but I would say that it is a very high probability with Fujifilm and Hasselblad at least. The arguments you gave make sense for it appearing _first_ in a low volume, high mark-up industrial product, but not for it staying in that niche once yields are high enough:
- Fujifilm has a clear incentive to offer the higher 100MP resolution within its G format system.
- Hasselbad is in the aerial camera business, and is even owned by drone maker DJI, so will want to keep up with Phase One Industrial.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: now the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 08, 2018, 06:18:39 pm
Doug,

   About the Sony sensor apparently used in the new Phase One iXM, you say:If  by "unclear" you mean "not yet a completely proven fact" I agree, but I would say that it is a very high probability with Fujifilm and Hasselblad at least. The arguments you gave make sense for it appearing _first_ in a low volume, high mark-up industrial product, but not for it staying in that niche once yields are high enough:
- Fujifilm has a clear incentive to offer the higher 100MP resolution within its G format system.
- Hasselbad is in the aerial camera business, and is even owned by drone maker DJI, so will want to keep up with Phase One Industrial.

Doug said, "... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.", not "... it's unclear whether P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product."

I think when is still unclear. I can hardly wait for the GFX 100S, though.

Jim
Title: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BJL on May 08, 2018, 07:28:46 pm
Doug said, "... it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product.", not "... it's unclear whether P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product."

I think when is still unclear. I can hardly wait for the GFX 100S, though.

Jim
Oh yes; I misread. So Doug's statement is obviously correct (there are no other announcements yet!), but not particularly useful or informative: emphasizing a lack of certainty over the likelihood that the answer is "soon, from at least one competitor". I doubt that Sony would have announced these new BSI sensors (the 100MP 44x33 IMX461 and the 150MP 54x40 IMX411) as 2018 products if they did not have more outlets than the iXM lined up.

However, I note something interesting in the way that Sony describes the use cases for these sensors in the document http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf (http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/news/detail/170301.pdf): the applications listed are
- Aerial Photography
- Large Area Surveillance
- Cultural Heritage (apparently meaning photographs of paintings)
- Inspection
so nothing that fits what is typically done with "mainstream" medium format cameras. For example, no "landscapes that you can print as big as your big-screen TV and then view from as close as you do with your phone's screen".
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Kirk_C on May 08, 2018, 10:16:04 pm
so nothing that fits what is typically done with "mainstream" medium format cameras..

Nothing yet.

P1 paid them a premium to be first I'm sure. The SONY Marketing department are respecting that for now.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 09, 2018, 12:57:51 am
It would be very sad if Phase One was in trouble. Really one of the pioneers. Clever people so I hope they have a plan that works that keeps them going and successful.

I have used 5 backs over the years. From 6MP Kodak to a 80MP Leaf. They all helped me make a living. I got rid of the 80MP leaf last year. If it isn’t working commercially then I cannot justify having it hang around. My clients are simply not asking for files that size. Sure there are clients who need it but not that many. In the past MF had a niche where they had the most pixels. We needed that and paid massive money to access it. Now we have passed the point where we are constantly wishing for more pixels. Now it’s about usability mostly. Workflow. Affordability in a  dry fluid environment.

If we end up with 150MP that will service a tiny market. There has to be more to Phase strategy than more pixels. I assume there is. Or they will end up a small software company marvelous as that software is
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 09, 2018, 09:24:02 pm
I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look

And this is the main problem with MF overall. There are so few lenses options that you are pretty much stuck with a given look that will have to be overall pleasing, meaning quite neutral. Sharp of course with a pleasant bokeh, but this doesn't really matter that much any longer since all lenses are sharp. Strangely enough, you end up with the Lexus of lens rendering although you pay the Bentley price.

In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm where I can use my 105mm f1.4 as close range if I want a super artistic bokeh, or my 70-200 f2.8 if I want just as much sharpness with a neutral rendering, or my [former] Otus 85mm f1.4, or the new Sigma 105mm f1.4, or... and the list is pretty much endless.

From that standpoint, mirrorless small sensors MF have a major value because you can adapt other lenses on it just like you can on the Sony. The fact that their sensor is hardly larger than 35mm becomes an asset here.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 10, 2018, 10:41:53 pm
Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: KLaban on May 11, 2018, 03:27:08 am
Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund

Contagion?

;-)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 11, 2018, 03:36:59 am
Hi,

One interesting observation is that Phase One users often upgrade, so existing system is used in exchange and never gets to market. So I guess the users who sell are not going to upgrade within Phase One's value protection program.

Best regards
Erik


Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BJL on May 11, 2018, 08:44:05 am
Nothing yet.

P1 paid them a premium to be first I'm sure. The SONY Marketing department are respecting that for now.
Maybe, but I have just had another thought: this is a marketing brochure and is of course not aimed at major camera makers like Hasselblad or Phase One, but at all the smaller customers: companies making specialized cameras for roles like machine inspection and security monitoring.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 11, 2018, 10:18:22 am
Hi,

Yes that could be the case. We don't actually now what all those sensor are used for.

My guess is that photography is a small but quite profitable part of the image sensor business.

Best regards
Erik


Maybe, but I have just had ant thought: this is a marketing brochure and is of course not aimed at major camera makers like Hasselblad or Phase One, but at all the smaller customers: companies making specialized cameras for roles like machine inspection and security monitoring.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 11, 2018, 11:46:20 am
Hi,

One interesting observation is that Phase One users often upgrade, so existing system is used in exchange and never gets to market. So I guess the users who sell are not going to upgrade within Phase One's value protection program.

Best regards
Erik


The trade in system most definitely gets back to market, most of the time. Either Phase One offers the trade in as a refurbished model, or a dealer that specializes on selling pre-owned digital backs (like CI) will purchase the trade in from Phase One before it ever gets to Denmark, tests/inspects, and adds to their existing inventory.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 11, 2018, 12:15:51 pm
I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look



bingo
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 12, 2018, 04:03:00 am
I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look

And this is the main problem with MF overall. There are so few lenses options that you are pretty much stuck with a given look that will have to be overall pleasing, meaning quite neutral. Sharp of course with a pleasant bokeh, but this doesn't really matter that much any longer since all lenses are sharp. Strangely enough, you end up with the Lexus of lens rendering although you pay the Bentley price.

In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm where I can use my 105mm f1.4 as close range if I want a super artistic bokeh, or my 70-200 f2.8 if I want just as much sharpness with a neutral rendering, or my [former] Otus 85mm f1.4, or the new Sigma 105mm f1.4, or... and the list is pretty much endless.

From that standpoint, mirrorless small sensors MF have a major value because you can adapt other lenses on it just like you can on the Sony. The fact that their sensor is hardly larger than 35mm becomes an asset here.

Cheers,
Bernard

This is well very articulated and mirrors my thoughts.

There is a mix of lenses I really like and even though I use an H system and Phase One out of necessity, there is no current medium format system that, by itself, gives me the look I want and am looking for. The problem being that a look is very difficult to create as its different for the individual - instead we get neutral lenses. I wish Zeiss was still in the medium format game - hopefully sometime in the future they will launch something for the mirrorless bodies. I would likely buy them.

Up to this point Phase One and Hasselblad have poured all their budget into pixels, to distance themselves from the competition. Lenses have been all but forgotten, except for a rare update. But now, especially Phase One, they have concentrated on something that has become somewhat irrelevant and put themselves out of the market I feel. Going from 100mp to 150MP is not enough, I have no interest.

One of the main reasons why I am so excited about the new mirrorless systems is the potential for a new set of lenses. Lenses that are interesting. It completely opens up the system to other possibilities and we can adapt a myriad of lenses, mix and match our own system that is unique to ourselves and combine it with a high quality sensor in a very versatile size.

To me, Phase one is the King that just can't hold court anymore. And unless it changes with the times it's going to become irrelevant.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 12, 2018, 02:43:36 pm
Actually the old AF Mamiya lenses had a decent look - I had a few which were both decently sharp and gentle, especially a 150 which I really liked and which cost next to nothing. The old Zeiss  lenses need no defending in this forum, when used with film they just delivered, and this translated well to the first generation of digita backs.

The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)

We would/will get some good looking lenses again when people agree on a sensor resolution, and this is actually the case for cine lenses where a lens is assumed to be used for 4K or up to 8K these days. Again it is probably counterproductive to mount a high-rez lens on a lower rez sensor because all you'll get is a clinical look, or worse ringing (aliasing).

Edmund

This is well very articulated and mirrors my thoughts.

There is a mix of lenses I really like and even though I use an H system and Phase One out of necessity, there is no current medium format system that, by itself, gives me the look I want and am looking for. The problem being that a look is very difficult to create as its different for the individual - instead we get neutral lenses. I wish Zeiss was still in the medium format game - hopefully sometime in the future they will launch something for the mirrorless bodies. I would likely buy them.

Up to this point Phase One and Hasselblad have poured all their budget into pixels, to distance themselves from the competition. Lenses have been all but forgotten, except for a rare update. But now, especially Phase One, they have concentrated on something that has become somewhat irrelevant and put themselves out of the market I feel. Going from 100mp to 150MP is not enough, I have no interest.

One of the main reasons why I am so excited about the new mirrorless systems is the potential for a new set of lenses. Lenses that are interesting. It completely opens up the system to other possibilities and we can adapt a myriad of lenses, mix and match our own system that is unique to ourselves and combine it with a high quality sensor in a very versatile size.

To me, Phase one is the King that just can't hold court anymore. And unless it changes with the times it's going to become irrelevant.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: KLaban on May 12, 2018, 03:58:52 pm
...In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm...

Apologies for the huge snip but I really wanted to highlight this observation as it was one of the most important reasons for my switch from medium format to 35 full frame. The range of lenses open to me now is as extensive as it is interesting, happily many of which are also comparatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 12, 2018, 04:58:57 pm


The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)


Edmund


I have no MF digital experience, and I'm not sure if it matters here; what is surprising to me is this thing about "flat".

All my RAWs end up out of the camera as flat as I can make 'em, but that helps me to turn them into many differently worked versions of the same shot, should I so desire. Digital processing is wide open, whereas with film, you got your general colour look (as distinct from personal style coming into play) depending on the film and lenses you used. I exclude bokeh in this thought, for it must surely be the same on both film and sensor if you use the same optic.

Are we perhaps creating brand new mystiques or just myths?

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: cgarnerhome on May 12, 2018, 05:56:30 pm
Rob - I'm with you.  I use an XF 100 and I want the images to be "flat" so I can process them the way I want.  I had a LeicaS2 for awhile but did not like the contrast the lenses seem to add.  I completely understand that some people want that look.  The reality is we all have slightly different needs.  I love the competitive dynamics in the med format market - the more choices the better.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 12, 2018, 06:29:48 pm
Actually the old AF Mamiya lenses had a decent look - I had a few which were both decently sharp and gentle, especially a 150 which I really liked and which cost next to nothing. The old Zeiss  lenses need no defending in this forum, when used with film they just delivered, and this translated well to the first generation of digita backs.

The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)

We would/will get some good looking lenses again when people agree on a sensor resolution, and this is actually the case for cine lenses where a lens is assumed to be used for 4K or up to 8K these days. Again it is probably counterproductive to mount a high-rez lens on a lower rez sensor because all you'll get is a clinical look, or worse ringing (aliasing).

Edmund

A well corrected lens doesn't have to look uninteresting - That is a total myth based on a small amount of design criteria. A "look" doesn't just come from aberration.

There are modern Medium Format lenses which look good and are well corrected too. It's just that finding a lens you like and a body that is right for you in one camera is difficult because there is so little to choose from and not as many lenses have been redesigned for digital. Also the price - Ive bought some cameras just for one particular lens - that's not something you can really do with medium format digital because if the expensive of it.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 13, 2018, 12:30:51 am
If the photograph is so boring and non descript that you start noticing how boring the lens rendering is then I think the photo is best deleted and another attempt made.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Graham Welland on May 13, 2018, 01:06:11 am
Rob - I'm with you.  I use an XF 100 and I want the images to be "flat" so I can process them the way I want. ...

Cam,

I shoot the same way and process images from a flat curve in Capture One. You can always add contrast/curves but it's much tougher to remove them.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 13, 2018, 04:33:30 am
If the photograph is so boring and non descript that you start noticing how boring the lens rendering is then I think the photo is best deleted and another attempt made.

Then you also most definitely never need more than 20 megapixels and most definitely not a (non mirrorless) MF camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 13, 2018, 04:52:45 am
Then you also most definitely never need more than 20 megapixels and most definitely not a (non mirrorless) MF camera.

Cheers,
Bernard

True 95% of the time I think.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 13, 2018, 07:56:54 am
If the photograph is so boring and non descript that you start noticing how boring the lens rendering is then I think the photo is best deleted and another attempt made.

Or you just have different standards.

If you aren't concerned about the way your photos look then that's your choice.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 13, 2018, 08:08:03 am
Or you just have different standards.


Perhaps it has nothing at all to do with standards. Perhaps it has to do with priorities.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 13, 2018, 08:10:32 am


Perhaps it has nothing at all to do with standards. Perhaps it has to do with priorities.

Some need to prioritise both because a good photo, to begin with, is just a base requirement and the bare minimum.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jeffery Salter on May 13, 2018, 12:43:50 pm
Well from my perspective content is king in a photograph, good light is the queen and let's just say, Ansel Adams didn't sit around whining about bokeh or pontificate if he had enough glass in his bag.....  He put on his boots,  loaded his 8 x 10 film holders, gathered his dark cloth, tripod and carried his "Large format" 8 x10 camera up the mountain.

I really wish some of the posters here were able to spend some time amongst the exquisite still lifes and iconic fashion images on display at the  Irving Penn Show (https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2017/irving-penn-centennial)  in New York City.  It would perhaps provide some solace or balm to their continued quest for more glass in their kits.  At the beginning of the show was his "Medium Format" camera, a Rolliflex 3.5 E3 Twin-Lens Reflex Camera with 75 mm Carl Zeiss Planar Lens (fixed).  It was a very enlightening and inspirational show.  Maybe the quest for the golden grail of glass is misguided.

But hey we are all human, it's easy to look for excuses why our work is not where we would want it to be.  I struggle with this even after being a photographer for a good stretch of time.  My personal challenge is not MF vs. 35mm vs vintage glass vs modern glass......it's seeking to look deeply inside myself to express how I feel about my time on this earth in images.
 
(http://files.jefferysalter.com/IP_206.jpg)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 13, 2018, 01:54:56 pm
Well from my perspective content is king in a photograph, good light is the queen and let's just say, Ansel Adams didn't sit around whining about bokeh or pontificate if he had enough glass in his bag.....  He put on his boots,  loaded his 8 x 10 film holders, gathered his dark cloth, tripod and carried his "Large format" 8 x10 camera up the mountain.

I really wish some of the posters here were able to spend some time amongst the exquisite still lifes and iconic fashion images on display at the  Irving Penn Show (https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2017/irving-penn-centennial)  in New York City.  It would perhaps provide some solace or balm to their continued quest for more glass in their kits.  At the beginning of the show was his "Medium Format" camera, a Rolliflex 3.5 E3 Twin-Lens Reflex Camera with 75 mm Carl Zeiss Planar Lens (fixed).  It was a very enlightening and inspirational show.  Maybe the quest for the golden grail of glass is misguided.

But hey we are all human, it's easy to look for excuses why our work is not where we would want it to be.  I struggle with this even after being a photographer for a good stretch of time.  My personal challenge is not MF vs. 35mm vs vintage glass vs modern glass......it's seeking to look deeply inside myself to express how I feel about my time on this earth in images.
 
(http://files.jefferysalter.com/IP_206.jpg)

I have a Rolleiflex. It has a distinct aesthetic and that is why I use it. All this is not just about having the best quality. It's about having a quality at all that the individual selects for their work. It's a vehicle of expression.

Ansel Adams obsessed over his gear and technique. You're talking about the person who invented the zone system for heaven's sake.

Irving Penn even more so. He spent most of his career shooting large format and the work is next level incredible. Take one look at his work and you understand how obsessed with his process he was and to what degree he went to to achieve it over his career.

Greats like these have spent their entire careers on their quest for their holy grail, they spend years getting their gear down to simple items and processes that reflect their message. But what we end up seeing in an exhibition or book is the distillation of that process.

This whole content is king argument is of course true, no one is arguing it. But taking a good picture for a photographer should just be a given. Aesthetic is an important part of delivering an artists message and some of the world's most famous and well known art is pure aesthetic.

But these discussions always arise in these conversations. Like somehow lens rendering or any sort of aesthetic or technique relates to boring photos. It's ridiculous!

"it's seeking to look deeply inside myself to express how I feel about my time on this earth in images."

I couldn't agree more. This is what it's all about. But the expression of that is often tied up in the process, the aesthetic, as a result of a soup of equipment, media and technique and in using it in order to visually express what that emotion is.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jeffery Salter on May 13, 2018, 02:53:12 pm
Thanks Bo for the enjoyable and insightful post.  I'm sure you have put your time in the trenches...

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 13, 2018, 05:03:06 pm
I don’t see how giving oneself one additional variable (lens look) as part of the creative process instead of having to go with a pre-selected neutral one, ends up being described as a sign of lack of focus on image content/meaning/essential quality.

As a H6D-100c/Arca user, I see even less how MF as a whole could not be described as a much worse offender considering how the many constraints resulting from (non mirrorless) MF usage - mostly accepted in exchange for minor values in terms of technical gains - negatively impact focus on content.

Anyway you look at it, a D850/a7rIII frees a lot more of your CPU time to think.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BJL on May 13, 2018, 05:22:02 pm
My guess is that photography is a small but quite profitable part of the image sensor business.

Best regards
Erik
That was rather clearly the case with CCDs bigger than 36x24mm. The MF camera makers were making do with sensors in different shapes and sizes than their “645” (meaning 56x42mm) systems. For example, those 36x36mm sensors were not to restore the glory of 6x6 square format, as shown by the later abandonment of squares; that shape just made more sensor for machine vission, aerial mapping, X-rays and so on.

Recent stats show that currently, the majority of sensors are made for the cameras in phones, but the trends suggest that the lead might soon be taken by all the small embedded cameras being added to cars, home security systems, fridges, "smart dorbells", etc.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 14, 2018, 02:02:37 am
Or you just have different standards.

If you aren't concerned about the way your photos look then that's your choice.

I was pretty much decided that it was pointless arguing this with you but changed my mind. Your reply, and the others that followed got me thinking and caused me to look more closely at my own attitudes, for that I thank you.

Firstly your assumption that I don’t care about how my photos look. I have made my living from photography all my adult life. It’s a fair living, I’m comfortable and don’t have to work too hard. Obviously I need to be concerned how my photos look or I wouldn’t survive as a photographer. If I really didn’t care about look and quality I wouldn’t have bought 5 MFDB over the years, not would I have trained as a sensitometrist in the early 80’s. I also would not have taught myself the zone system nor would I have dragged a Linhoff Super Technica all over the mountains on week long wilderness hikes. I also wouldn’t have travelled to places like New York to see the work of top photographers. Let’s just assume that I do care about how my photos look.

Quality and content. Two important foundations. To me quality is a given. You have to have a certain minimum standard. Then you have content, what are you saying. There must be some balance between these two. Quality can be a bit of a rabbit hole. By that I mean it’s a common thing to see people endlessly chasing quality with the idea that as soon as they get that sorted they will get going on taking great photos. However there is no end to that. At some point you need to say it’s time to get shooting, seriously working. At some point you start to focus on content. Not that you now ignore quality but it takes a back seat to the constant striving after more quality.

Th point I was trying to make and to what you responded with assumptions that I didn’t care about quality is that arguing about lens rendering and being critical of the current generation of top lenses as being flat and clinical was a step too far, at least for me. Diminishing returns is a real thing and for me we have reached that point with this issue.

So that’s my point. Feel free to disagree if your priorities are different. I don’t really care. But it was cool that your attitude about it and towards me caused me to more carefully engage with my own position. I can go out and spend $3000 on lenses with “feel” or I can take a drive up to Namibia or Tanzania or Botswana and with the same money shoot for a few weeks. Who knows, I might even take my old, Rokkor lenses, endless feel with those suckers and I have owned them since 1975
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 14, 2018, 05:30:18 am
This thread development really needs its own section, as it has little to do with P1 or any other brand.

Especially with digital, it's my experience that the ultimate image I see on the monitor is the product of how well or otherwise I employ Photoshop to get to the point at which I say STOP!

Film was different, especially when you were working with transparencies. The standard objective was to make an exposure that would preserve the important highlights, and it was up to you to fill in the shadows or not, depending on how important to you that they seemed to be. The next step, processing, was always best left as bog standard as it could be: the entire manufacturing process had been calibrated to match a standard, lab-controlled processing technique. Departing from that was not recommended, unless with E6-type processes where there was sometimes the opportunity to push/pull. Let's not even think about aberrations such as cross-processing or batch variations here.

So, as direct consequence of a standardised process insofar as film itself was concerned, the variables were lens marque (and airport security screening, which if you liked khaki skin tones, was a great optional idea) and lighting quality, which includes filters, colour temperature etc. If you played around with over- or under-exposure that was something else, not a quality of the optics.

Therefore, there was a difference of "native" look available to you depending to a degree on optics selected. Personally, I never knew any professional who owned different sets of lens systems for the same format in order to get different looks for different jobs. Most of us did own different camera formats to handle different types of work. Not the same thing.

As has been stated, the great thing about look lies not in tiny, sophisticated differences that even most snappers can't see in isolation, but in the content of the photograph and, on top of that, the manner in which that content has been handled, which essentially brings us to photographer's style.

In my innocence, I see the advantage of digital MF being the abilty to make larger blow-ups from a single exposure.

Whether or not that means larger than the work requires for a given job is another matter. If I were working professionally today, I would like the idea of shooting as large as possible simply in order to ensure the work had a wider chance of selling to a more demanding market, or to the same one for a different purpose at some future date. (As I have written before, I met the same problem once from using a cellphone to make some private, fun snaps for myself: came the time a would-be client saw them and wanted a large blow-up, I had to turn him away because the dumb originals couldn't stand the degree of enlargement needed.)

I think that there's a good chance that even great pros can be, secretly and unknowingly, fanboys of some marque or the other...
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 14, 2018, 05:37:07 am
I was pretty much decided that it was pointless arguing this with you but changed my mind. Your reply, and the others that followed got me thinking and caused me to look more closely at my own attitudes, for that I thank you.

Firstly your assumption that I don’t care about how my photos look. I have made my living from photography all my adult life. It’s a fair living, I’m comfortable and don’t have to work too hard. Obviously I need to be concerned how my photos look or I wouldn’t survive as a photographer. If I really didn’t care about look and quality I wouldn’t have bought 5 MFDB over the years, not would I have trained as a sensitometrist in the early 80’s. I also would not have taught myself the zone system nor would I have dragged a Linhoff Super Technica all over the mountains on week long wilderness hikes. I also wouldn’t have travelled to places like New York to see the work of top photographers. Let’s just assume that I do care about how my photos look.

Quality and content. Two important foundations. To me quality is a given. You have to have a certain minimum standard. Then you have content, what are you saying. There must be some balance between these two. Quality can be a bit of a rabbit hole. By that I mean it’s a common thing to see people endlessly chasing quality with the idea that as soon as they get that sorted they will get going on taking great photos. However there is no end to that. At some point you need to say it’s time to get shooting, seriously working. At some point you start to focus on content. Not that you now ignore quality but it takes a back seat to the constant striving after more quality.

Th point I was trying to make and to what you responded with assumptions that I didn’t care about quality is that arguing about lens rendering and being critical of the current generation of top lenses as being flat and clinical was a step too far, at least for me. Diminishing returns is a real thing and for me we have reached that point with this issue.

So that’s my point. Feel free to disagree if your priorities are different. I don’t really care. But it was cool that your attitude about it and towards me caused me to more carefully engage with my own position. I can go out and spend $3000 on lenses with “feel” or I can take a drive up to Namibia or Tanzania or Botswana and with the same money shoot for a few weeks. Who knows, I might even take my old, Rokkor lenses, endless feel with those suckers and I have owned them since 1975

The exact point you made was that someone's work must be boring if they noticed the lens rendering and that they should delete their work and start again. That is far more assumption, ignorance, arrogance in one statement than I could pass up and I'm glad my reaction has challenged that.

It does reveal more about your own standards than the person you are judging. By standards, I also mean priorities. A photographer can take a great photo they are happy with and still be disappointed with how they captured it, what lens or what format they used etc.

You would rather go on a trip than buy a lens, but some would rather do both. I have spent 10K on one lens and I have then spent 10K on a personal project. I bought the lens for the personal project because what it does contributes to what I want to say. It’s part of the recipe. The point is that photography can be all these things, they aren’t mutually exclusive. Boring lens rendering doesn’t only exist in boring photos and to a photographer who is disappointed in the way their picture looks it’s often enough for them to change it.

The search to find equipment that represents your voice could easily be described, by some, especially an onlooker, as a rabbit hole. It is potentially that. You can easily get lost in it. That’s sometimes part of the journey though and that doesn't make it a fruitless journey by default.

Every artistic pursuit has the same journey. A poet can spend weeks searching for the right words to say something that is important to them, they can and do feel unhappy with what they have and feel a need to change it. A painter can search endlessly for new ways to paint and release their vision, tweak, change their style, a musician can endlessly search for their instrument, adjusting, tinkering and customising in a never ending pursuit to get things just right. Even Tiger Woods tried to change his swing when he didn't need to. Neither of those things makes their work or pursuit "boring" or something that should be deleted. Throughout history the greatest artists that have ever been have been deeply obsessed about these things and never stop searching and changing and adjusting until it is right for them. You just have to look at how much the greatest ever painters searched for their style and changed it throughout their careers. The goal posts are always moving and the game is always changing because we are always changing.

Reading your statement again, the very fact you say they should delete it and start again, tends to suggest that in the process of disagreeing you are actually agreeing anyway.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 14, 2018, 06:09:38 am

Every artistic pursuit has the same journey. A poet can spend weeks searching for the right words to say something that is important to them, they can and do feel unhappy with what they have and feel a need to change it. A painter can search endlessly for new ways to paint and release their vision, tweak, change their style, a musician can endlessly search for their instrument, adjusting, tinkering and customising in a never ending pursuit to get things just right. Even Tiger Woods tried to change his swing when he didn't need to. Neither of those things makes their work or pursuit "boring" or something that should be deleted. Throughout history the greatest artists that have ever been have been deeply obsessed about these things and never stop searching and changing and adjusting until it is right for them. You just have to look at how much the greatest ever painters searched for their style and changed it throughout their careers. The goal posts are always moving and the game is always changing because we are always changing.


This is absolutly true. But I think that this very same truth is a two sides of a coin
And precisely where the trap can stand.
Let's take a Zidane. Those guys started to play and improve their skills under the availavle conditions, not the ideal ones..
Most didn't have the cash to just buy decent boots. They trained on the streets, so to say.
They played under the worst conditions with what they have. They endlessly trained.
They were discovered because they were good, and because they were
Good only, they growned; then comes into the play the reffinements,
The quest for little details. Not first but as a logical result of their excellence/experience.

Nowdays, many peoole put the second ingredient first, thinking it's going to drive
Them to good. If one can't make good pics with an Holga, it's not going
To happen with an Hasselblad.
If the images are crap with the kit lens, they will even be crappier with a 10000 bucks one.
The problem is not the search for fine tuning and get the right equipment for a look.
It is the when that matters.

Actually, many people don't even have a clear clue of what lenses would they need to acheive
A particular vision because for that to happens, they would have first to know
What their artistic vision is, also to know the specialness of the lenses in question,
And finaly have trained eyes to be able to appreciate subtle differences.
That requires a lot of previous field work and experience, many don't have.

Things can not be upside down.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 14, 2018, 10:00:22 pm
P1 paid them a premium to be first I'm sure. The SONY Marketing department are respecting that for now.

Maybe, but then again the 100mp is not likely to be very exclusive for long... as is proven by this piece of news:

https://ponfmultibackcamera.wordpress.com/2018/05/10/ponf-x-sony-update-big-things-to-come/

I have low expectations about the actual product, but at least it shows that pretty much anyone can buy these sensors easily. There is no doubt whatsoever that Hassy and Fuji have had their hands on them for quite some time.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: eronald on May 15, 2018, 06:15:17 pm
Maybe, but then again the 100mp is not likely to be very exclusive for long... as is proven by this piece of news:

https://ponfmultibackcamera.wordpress.com/2018/05/10/ponf-x-sony-update-big-things-to-come/

I have low expectations about the actual product, but at least it shows that pretty much anyone can buy these sensors easily. There is no doubt whatsoever that Hassy and Fuji have had their hands on them for quite some time.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sony seem to be getting very aggressive about selling sensors.
It's possible that Phase gets a custom CFA.

On the other hand all the smarts that make computational photography possible in phones are not necessarily there for MF sensors, so I think Sony is handicapping anyone who wants to compete with the A7RIV.

Edmund

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 16, 2018, 04:37:04 pm
On the other hand all the smarts that make computational photography possible in phones are not necessarily there for MF sensors, so I think Sony is handicapping anyone who wants to compete with the A7RIV.

The main practical issue with MF is focusing. This is were the best DSLRs with eye tracking (D5/D850) and mirrorless (Sony only for now) are killing them.

It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static.

I suspected it before owning one of these and I was 100% right. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: eronald on May 16, 2018, 05:20:58 pm
The main practical issue with MF is focusing. This is were the best DSLRs with eye tracking (D5/D850) and mirrorless (Sony only for now) are killing them.

It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static.

I suspected it before owning one of these and I was 100% right. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, and I think the MF sensor Sony sells do not necessarily have the necessary circuitry for PDAF and eye-focus, but I may be wrong on that. Even when good fast focus is implemented at sensor level, the somewhat slower to move lenses will still be an issue.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: henrikfoto on May 16, 2018, 05:33:51 pm
The main practical issue with MF is focusing. This is were the best DSLRs with eye tracking (D5/D850) and mirrorless (Sony only for now) are killing them.

It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static.

I suspected it before owning one of these and I was 100% right. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I have too agree 100%  !!!!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: pschefz on May 16, 2018, 10:18:04 pm
The main practical issue with MF is focusing. This is were the best DSLRs with eye tracking (D5/D850) and mirrorless (Sony only for now) are killing them.

It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static.

I suspected it before owning one of these and I was 100% right. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
i have to say that the AF with the GFX so far is good....in a different world compared to H system or phase but obviously also not comparable to sony/nikon....but it is pretty solid somewhere there in the middle, which makes it good enough for moving objects....unfortunately the performance also depends on the lens....so far i find the zoom the best...the 45 and 120 are ok but definitely behind the zoom, i havent tried the other lenses but so far my own experience is not different from other people....
overall it is easily comparable to early dslrs and systems i used to work with years ago which weren't great but overall did not frustrate me because of missed frames....maybe it is because i used to work with slower systems (and grew up with manual focus) that i find the GFX perfectly workable.....as amazing as the sony/nikons are, i tend to get lost completely depending on eye AF and such and end up actually loosing frames because i almost panic if the AF does get lost...
the best thing about the GFX focus system is that when it is on...it's ON....i have had shoots with the sony when i trusted the points completely only to find out later that the point actually was on the tip of the nose and not the eye.....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 16, 2018, 11:45:32 pm
i have to say that the AF with the GFX so far is good....in a different world compared to H system or phase but obviously also not comparable to sony/nikon....but it is pretty solid somewhere there in the middle, which makes it good enough for moving objects....

Indeed. I should have written "non mirrorless" MF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 17, 2018, 01:53:54 am
Hi,

I would say that CDAF is accurate, with exception to focus shift related issues, but may need lenses built for CDAF.

I am not really surprised by your findings. But it is not good that you needed to spend something like 30k$US to find out.

Best regards
Erik

Indeed. I should have written "non mirrorless" MF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 17, 2018, 03:32:09 am
I am not really surprised by your findings. But it is not good that you needed to spend something like 30k$US to find out.

That's fine, I pretty much knew it.

The H6D-100c is a splendid camera for what it can do, but it has limitations, like all non mirrorless MF cameras.

This was OK when there was no credible alternative. Now with the GFX/X1D and the quality of the best DSLRs... it is becoming a real problem (in particular for P1 that has no other solution).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: eronald on May 17, 2018, 04:53:59 am
Hi,

I would say that CDAF is accurate, with exception to focus shift related issues, but may need lenses built for CDAF.

I am not really surprised by your findings. But it is not good that you needed to spend something like 30k$US to find out.

Best regards
Erik

Video cameras focus when stopped down. Which may help explain why video is often sharp :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 09:26:34 am
I would imagine that if the photographer can still adjust mentally backwards (older guys) to film, then using horses for courses, as with film, will still makes sense with digital format choices.

Keep MF for static shots and use the smaller cameras for action, such as fashion outdoors. If you are in a studio doing full-length shots of models, they will presumably have their toe marker, and so your shots should always be in focus unless you feel obliged to use very wide apertures for some mysterious, aesthetic purpose.

As ever, you get into trouble when you seek a one-for-everything solution because it's convenient, or because you simply can't pony up for more equipment.

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 17, 2018, 10:51:15 am
I would imagine that if the photographer can still adjust mentally backwards (older guys) to film, then using horses for courses, as with film, will still makes sense with digital format choices.

Keep MF for static shots and use the smaller cameras for action, such as fashion outdoors. If you are in a studio doing full-length shots of models, they will presumably have their toe marker, and so your shots should always be in focus unless you feel obliged to use very wide apertures for some mysterious, aesthetic purpose.

As ever, you get into trouble when you seek a one-for-everything solution because it's convenient, or because you simply can't pony up for more equipment.

Rob

Rob,

 Digital has much less DOF than film for some reason - actually it's an in-camera depth of focus issue rather than subject depth of field but who cares, and also diffraction effects mean that to get 100MP on crop you won't be able to go much past f5.6 which means that focus goes critical, and your lens had better be good. Essentially when you add in the MF format and the digital effect, F5.6 on an MF digital is the equivalent of F2.8 on 35mm film, or maybe F4 on an old school Hassy. Not so pleasant. So I guess you close down to F8, but you don't "really" get anything like F8 on 35mm. The good side is that somehow images look clearer.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 17, 2018, 12:01:12 pm
Hi,

"Digital" sort of eliminated "Film" from the equation.

Best regards
Erik


Rob,

 Digital has much less DOF than film for some reason - actually it's an in-camera depth of focus issue rather than subject depth of field but who cares, and also diffraction effects mean that to get 100MP on crop you won't be able to go much past f5.6 which means that focus goes critical, and your lens had better be good. Essentially when you add in the MF format and the digital effect, F5.6 on an MF digital is the equivalent of F2.8 on 35mm film, or maybe F4 on an old school Hassy. Not so pleasant. So I guess you close down to F8, but you don't "really" get anything like F8 on 35mm. The good side is that somehow images look clearer.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BJL on May 17, 2018, 12:41:03 pm
Digital has much less DOF than film for some reason ...  diffraction effects mean that to get 100MP ...
I think it is the 100MP that has less DOF, not inherently the change from chemical to electronic light detection. Meaning that the greater resolution/detail can lead to viewing larger and cropping more heavily (if just when panning and zooming on screen) and that magnifies the visibility of OOF effects. Along with 100% pixel peeping being so much easier and more common than the film-era equivalents of viewing prints and transparencies under a loupe.

And yes, as the amount of detail and "viewing size” goes up, the f-stop latitude between adequately limiting OOF blur and diffraction blur shrinks.

(Aside: as has been discussed often, this "sharpness latitude" is related to pixel count or resolution in the sense of line pairs per picture height, regardless of format size.)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 17, 2018, 02:03:07 pm
I think it is the 100MP that has less DOF, not inherently the change from chemical to electronic light detection. Meaning that the greater resolution/detail can lead to viewing larger and cropping more heavily (if just when panning and zooming on screen) and that magnifies the visibility of OOF effects. Along with 100% pixel peeping being so much easier and more common than the film-era equivalents of viewing prints and transparencies under a loupe.

And yes, as the amount of detail and "viewing size” goes up, the f-stop latitude between adequately limiting OOF blur and diffraction blur shrinks.

(Aside: as has been discussed often, this "sharpness latitude" is related to pixel count or resolution in the sense of line pairs per picture height, regardless of format size.)

BJL yes, all the above are known. But also the thickness of silver halide film, development effects, and in the case of black and white, possibly condenser enlarging had a sharpening effect. Film was a mature technology, with all that implies in terms of countless small "accidental" optimisations.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 02:45:02 pm
Edmund,

Yes, I understand that looking at your image at 100% or greater reveals shortcomings, but unless you are also printing at that massive size, it's basically academic.

I mentioned recently buying Italian Vogue and being dismayed at the stiffness of the little editorial that there was; it looked as if everything, editorial as well as advertising, had been shot in the same studio on the same monolithic 8x10 wooden camera - the wood of the camera echoed in the woodenness of the photographs. With human subjects the effect is awful, not as in filling one with awe and wonder, but with a certain revulsion and, as dangerous for fashion, of boredom.

Perhaps this isn't really a photographic problem but, rather, one of too many noses pressed against the monitor, looking at gigantic reproduction ratios when all you really want is an image 11.5 inches tall!

Anyway, it used to be perfectly possible to make massive hoarding pictures out of 135 format film... I remember the beauty of the Cacharel posters Moon made with Nikon cameras and even, in far more humble mode, my own 40x60 inch black/white fashion blow-ups that used to travel around the world as selling aids at exhibitions for knitwear company products, or in-store point-of-sale advertising.

It seems it just becomes exceedingly more expensive for working photographers to make the same photographs that they already could.

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 17, 2018, 02:45:59 pm
BJL yes, all the above are known. But also the thickness of silver halide film, development effects, and in the case of black and white, possibly condenser enlarging had a sharpening effect. Film was a mature technology, with all that implies in terms of countless small "accidental" optimisations.

Edmund

Yep, condenser, diffuser, cold heads. All made a significant difference. High acutance developers like Rodinal vs fine grain developers such as Promicrol also made quite a big difference. However the biggest difference is we looked at the image with a loupe or evaluated the neg in an anlarger. Acceptable sharpness was determined in a much less precise way. And if nothing was truly sharp we at least had the grain to give the appearance of something sharp.

Pixel peeping sharpness is much more critical than what appears sharp in a print and is much less important. I print so that’s what I care about  To me f8 depth of field on a 50mm lens looks pretty much as it always did.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 03:07:03 pm
Yep, condenser, diffuser, cold heads. All made a significant difference. High acutance developers like Rodinal vs fine grain developers such as Promicrol also made quite a big difference. However the biggest difference is we looked at the image with a loupe or evaluated the neg in an anlarger. Acceptable sharpness was determined in a much less precise way. And if nothing was truly sharp we at least had the grain to give the appearance of something sharp.

Pixel peeping sharpness is much more critical than what appears sharp in a print and is much less important. I print so that’s what I care about  To me f8 depth of field on a 50mm lens looks pretty much as it always did.



Yes, having cast aside my Internet conditioning on that refraction stuff, I tried my own 35mm or 50mm out at f11 and guess what: it gave me the DOF I wanted and looked quite normal to me. It really is the worry caused by computer viewing that makes people fearful of exploiting their optics as they might.

Looking on the bright side (as I like to pretend to myself that I always do), most of my virgin Tiff material looks a bit off if I go up to 100%, but as I make much smaller pictures in reality, the little sharpening that I try is sometimes dumped again because it just isn't doing anything other than lending the odd bright edge that I don't particularly want. Truth to tell, over-sharpened shots look worse than soft ones to me. That said, it can also be used along with "noise" to give a harsh effect that can be useful for some pix where you just want to create really heavy drama.

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 03:09:55 pm
Hi,

"Digital" sort of eliminated "Film" from the equation.

Best regards
Erik


Well yes, but that's hardly the point of why it was brought into the discussion.

Rob
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BJL on May 17, 2018, 03:21:37 pm
But also the thickness of silver halide film, development effects, and in the case of black and white, possibly condenser enlarging had a sharpening effect.
These all sound like factors that reduce the real-world MTF/sharpness/resolution of the exposed film and prints a bit below what spec sheets and MTF graphs say — and which thus somewhat increase the "perceived DOF", as judged roughly when looking as closely as the image's MTF/sharpness/resolution makes worthwhile.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: DougDolde on May 17, 2018, 06:33:43 pm
Well...Phase One new iXM (https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx)

I guess making the 1st 100MP BSI sensor camera has kept us busy  ;)

BR

Yair

That looks like an incredible aerial solution and in the end probably much cheaper than hiring a helicopter.   I'd hate to crash one, that would be a very expensive error
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 18, 2018, 03:42:05 am
I am not really surprised by your findings. But it is not good that you needed to spend something like 30k$US to find out.

Do you really think he bought a 30k medium format camera just to find out if it's as good as 35mm camera for doing 35mm camera sort of things?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 18, 2018, 05:32:35 am
Do you really think he bought a 30k medium format camera just to find out if it's as good as 35mm camera for doing 35mm camera sort of things?

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/956/27288265867_12698c5f15_h.jpg)
H6D-100c - hand held

The H6D-100c can in fact almost be used like a DSLR,... if you forget AF. ;)

I just hope that the H7D-150c will be a mirrorless solution with accurate AF accross the field and Auto-ISO (like the X1D).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 18, 2018, 05:58:38 am
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/956/27288265867_12698c5f15_h.jpg)
H6D-100c - hand held

The H6D-100c can in fact almost be used like a DSLR,... if you forget AF. ;)

I just hope that the H7D-150c will be a mirrorless solution with accurate AF accross the field and Auto-ISO (like the X1D).

Cheers,
Bernard

Beautiful picture, Bernard.

There is no doubt in my mind that an H or an XF can be used handheld and as a walk around camera - I use one in the same way.

But no one is under the illusion that it can track a subject in fast motion, are they?

"It's not good you had to spend 30k to find out" is a very strange thing for Erik to say.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 05:58:54 am
Hi,

Bernard found that AF is not accurate enough to achieve critical focus. That kind of issue is never mentioned on forums or in tests.

Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) has tested the Hassy some years ago and did not complain about focusing. That is more like an exception as he found AF-issues with most DSLR-type systems he tested.

Best regards
Erik


Do you really think he bought a 30k medium format camera just to find out if it's as good as 35mm camera for doing 35mm camera sort of things?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 18, 2018, 06:00:54 am
Hi,

Bernard found that AF is not accurate enough to achieve critical focus. That kind of issue is never mentioned on forums or in tests.

Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) has tested the Hassy some years ago and did not complain about focusing. That is more like an exception.

Best regards
Erik

No he didn't say that.

"...It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static..."
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 06:01:31 am
Hi Barnard,

I would assume that you can use magnified live view for accurate focus?

Best regards
Erik

That's fine, I pretty much knew it.

The H6D-100c is a splendid camera for what it can do, but it has limitations, like all non mirrorless MF cameras.

This was OK when there was no credible alternative. Now with the GFX/X1D and the quality of the best DSLRs... it is becoming a real problem (in particular for P1 that has no other solution).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 06:08:56 am
Hi,

Bernard knows what he meant. My interpretation was that the AF-system was not accurate enough, could be wrong. I would assume that Bernard uses magnified live view for accurate focusing.

The X1D and the GFX use contrast detection on the sensor itself. That is accurate, unless focus shift is an issue.

Best regards
Erik


No he didn't say that.

"...It is very rare to get more actual resolution with a 100mp back compared to a D850/a7RIII on anything that it not perfectly static..."
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: the P1 iXM and its 100MP 44x33 sensor
Post by: Graham Welland on May 18, 2018, 06:28:23 am
Hi,

Bernard found that AF is not accurate enough to achieve critical focus. That kind of issue is never mentioned on forums or in tests.

Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) has tested the Hassy some years ago and did not complain about focusing. That is more like an exception.

Best regards
Erik

There seems to be here a lot of pontification from folks about gear that they neither own or shoot ... just saying. My XF is a slow focus camera but it does focus.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 18, 2018, 07:58:51 am
Exactly. My H focuses very accurately.

I don't expect it focus as fast as a 35mm camera, nor do I expect it to capture a moving subject as easily.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 12:30:23 pm
Hi,

This posting may illustrate AF accuracy a bit: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.msg1027538#msg1027538

The topic is here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.0

Best regards
Erik



Exactly. My H focuses very accurately.

I don't expect it focus as fast as a 35mm camera, nor do I expect it to capture a moving subject as easily.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 18, 2018, 12:49:43 pm
Hi,

This posting may illustrate AF accuracy a bit: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.msg1027538#msg1027538

The topic is here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.0

Best regards
Erik

I started using the Hasselblad H in 2005. How about you?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 03:26:46 pm
Hi,

You have an interesting point...

On the other hand, the H6D owner did have a problem and I suggested a solution that actually worked: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.msg1027810#msg1027810

You can check some of the postings near by.

It is very clear that Bernard, who also owns a H6D finds that focusing the Hasselblad is tricky with off axis subjects. It seem that magnified live view works well, but it takes careful work.

This is actually the point I would like to make. Things like that should be discussed before suggesting that someone would spend like 35k$US on gear.

Another point, that I think that Bernard also makes, is that we have 100 MP around the corner from both Hasselblad and Fuji. At the present state, both systems offer CDAF with many focusing points that are accurate. The lenses for both systems are probably optimized for 100 MP, Fuji says so and measurements by Jim Kasson certainly confirm Fuji's statements.

I have not seen testing like Jim's for the X1D, but Hasselblad's MTF data tells a similar story.

Just to say, I made my living as an engineer, mostly simulating nuclear power plants. In science/engineering we are used to rely on work made by others. So, for me it is quite natural to read available info and make estimates based on existing work.

My MFD experience is with the P45+ on Hasselbad 555/ELD, I bought it 2013 and I still have it, although it sees very little use. Obviously, I recognize that the H6D is a very different animal.

Best regards
Erik

I started using the Hasselblad H in 2005. How about you?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 18, 2018, 03:43:52 pm

Just to say, I made my living as an engineer, mostly simulating nuclear power plants. In science/engineering we are used to rely on work made by others. So, for me it is quite natural to read available info and make estimates based on existing work.


Yes, and when we rely on the work of others we usually deduct an "optimism factor" from specs on a datasheet, eg. MTF graphs from the manufacturer which are often computed rather than measured MTF, or else from a handpicked perfect lens sample.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 18, 2018, 04:08:15 pm
Hi Ronald,

I would agree with you, but I would make two points.


The question we may ask: is there any better information than that?

Jim Kasson has done a lot of testing on Fuji GFX lenses and found them extraordinary. Jim did compare Fuji glass to some of his samples of HC and Hasselblad CF glass. The GFX lenses played in another division. My guess is that the X1d lenses compete head on with Fuji's GFX lenses. But, that is just a guess.

Best regards
Erik




Yes, and when we rely on the work of others we usually deduct an "optimism factor" from specs on a datasheet, eg. MTF graphs from the manufacturer which are often computed rather than measured MTF, or else from a handpicked perfect lens sample.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 18, 2018, 05:36:26 pm
Exactly. My H focuses very accurately.

Mine does also, on static subjects located reasonnably close to the center of the frame.

On the Fuji vs X1d lenses, I have no first hand experience, but Lloyd Chambers seems to think that the Hasselblad lenses have much less sample variation.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 18, 2018, 11:04:47 pm
Hi Ronald,

I would agree with you, but I would make two points.

  • If Hasselblad releases MTF data for a HC-lens or an XD-lens, both will probably be hand picked.
  • The Swedish monthly "Foto" did make MTF testing using Hasselblad's MTF equipment and got results very similar to the MTF data that Hasselblad published.

The question we may ask: is there any better information than that?

Jim Kasson has done a lot of testing on Fuji GFX lenses and found them extraordinary. Jim did compare Fuji glass to some of his samples of HC and Hasselblad CF glass. The GFX lenses played in another division. My guess is that the X1d lenses compete head on with Fuji's GFX lenses. But, that is just a guess.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

 My first name is Edmund :)

 One would expect the new Fuji lenses to be better than the H, they are after all from the same manufacturer  as the "Hassy" lenses, and much younger. That with 100MP crop resolution the Hassy H lenses will be nearing the end of their useful design life shows how well the system was initially specced and manufactured.

 I expect the H system will be retired as soon as the lens collection for the XD is built up completely.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 18, 2018, 11:56:11 pm
One would expect the new Fuji lenses to be better than the H, they are after all from the same manufacturer as the "Hassy" lenses, and much younger.

And have to cover a smaller image circle.

jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2018, 12:04:58 am
And have to cover a smaller image circle.

jim

Yes, this is the part I don't quite understand, I would have expected Fuji to leave more space between full-frame 35 and their offering.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 19, 2018, 12:40:43 am
Hi Edmund,

This posting on DPReview is quite interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61122175

Fuji probably went with the 44x33 mm sensor from Sony because they wanted to build the camera around an off the shelf sensor that was available at a cost allowing for a product at cost that would sell in volume.

Best regards
Erik



Yes, this is the part I don't quite understand, I would have expected Fuji to leave more space between full-frame 35 and their offering.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 19, 2018, 04:05:38 am
Hi,

You have an interesting point...

On the other hand, the H6D owner did have a problem and I suggested a solution that actually worked: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123230.msg1027810#msg1027810

You can check some of the postings near by.

It is very clear that Bernard, who also owns a H6D finds that focusing the Hasselblad is tricky with off axis subjects. It seem that magnified live view works well, but it takes careful work.

This is actually the point I would like to make. Things like that should be discussed before suggesting that someone would spend like 35k$US on gear.

Another point, that I think that Bernard also makes, is that we have 100 MP around the corner from both Hasselblad and Fuji. At the present state, both systems offer CDAF with many focusing points that are accurate. The lenses for both systems are probably optimized for 100 MP, Fuji says so and measurements by Jim Kasson certainly confirm Fuji's statements.

I have not seen testing like Jim's for the X1D, but Hasselblad's MTF data tells a similar story.

Just to say, I made my living as an engineer, mostly simulating nuclear power plants. In science/engineering we are used to rely on work made by others. So, for me it is quite natural to read available info and make estimates based on existing work.

My MFD experience is with the P45+ on Hasselbad 555/ELD, I bought it 2013 and I still have it, although it sees very little use. Obviously, I recognize that the H6D is a very different animal.

Best regards
Erik

The OP in your link was shooting a portrait with a large 100MP medium format camera, and a wide open 150mm lens, with no experience of doing so. With all respect, I'm not surprised he had difficulty in getting sharp pictures.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 19, 2018, 09:02:29 am
Hi,

The guy just spent a few tens of thousand dollars on an system that is supposed to deliver 100 MP of detail, having a focusing system that is supposed to compensate for camera rotation.

We don't have 100 MP on mirrorless yet, although Phase already uses the new sensor for aerial imaging.

The existing mirrorless systems allow you to select the focusing point freely, so there is no need for True Focus.

One interesting issue that was quite obvious in Neil's images that the 150 mm lens is not well corrected for axial chroma. The straight image with True Focus activated has green fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/axd8tpx0jddrfnw/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.09.51.png?raw=1)

The next image with True Focus engaged and a camera rotation has magenta fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/fs4ka1z2aegz6gc/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.12.05.png?raw=1)

After that it seems that Neil tried magnified live view and got no fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/difcdhkgofzq31r/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.17.11.png?raw=1)

These samples show that the HC 150 lens is not well corrected for axial chroma and that focusing may not be accurate enough to avoid axial chroma.

An interesting question may be: Would Neil achieved a better image with a 50MP camera like the X1D or the GFX?

Jim Kasson has run a lot of tests on his GFX lenses and it seems that they are very well corrected. My guess would be that X1D lenses perform at the same level.  It may be that GFX lenses have more sample variation than X1D lenses, but it seems that all lenses Jim got were pretty good.

It also seems that most lenses are pretty decent. Obviously, no lens can exceed the design criteria. Jim Kasson has developed a lens screening method. I put some of my lenses trough it and all three were pretty OK.

https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/examples/good-100mm-lens-on-p1-p45/
https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/examples/ok-60mm-lens-on-phase-one-p45/

The third lens was the Sigma 24-105/4 Art at three different focal lengths. I don't think that Jim Kasson has a public link to that lens, but he felt it was quite OK.

To sum it up a bit...
I would argue that it makes a lot of sense for newcomers to MFD to spend their money on systems that are designed for 2018 sensor technology than on systems designed for film around the turn of centuries.

Best regards
Erik


The OP in your link was shooting a portrait with a large 100MP medium format camera, and a wide open 150mm lens, with no experience of doing so. With all respect, I'm not surprised he had difficulty in getting sharp pictures.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 19, 2018, 09:20:49 am
Hi,

The guy just spent a few tens of thousand dollars on an system that is supposed to deliver 100 MP of detail, having a focusing system that is supposed to compensate for camera rotation.

We don't have 100 MP on mirrorless yet, although Phase already uses the new sensor for aerial imaging.

The existing mirrorless systems allow you to select the focusing point freely, so there is no need for True Focus.

One interesting issue that was quite obvious in Neil's images that the 150 mm lens is not well corrected for axial chroma. The straight image with True Focus activated has green fringing:

No such camera compensates for a lack of experience. It does deliver 100MP of detail, he just needs to learn how to work with it properly.

The 150 is a 16 year old lens, it was never designed to work with a 100MP sensor but I have found it to work surprisingly well, even so.

I use the 120mm II over the 150mm for a critical applications. But the 150mm has a very nice rendering nonetheless and it's quick and easy to get rid of the CA.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 19, 2018, 09:48:14 am
Hi,

Getting rid of axial chroma is pretty much impossible. What you can do is to desaturate the affected colors, essentially turning the edges into monochrome.

It may not be a problem if you don't view the images critically. But, why would you spend a lot of k$US on image quality if you don't look close?!

Admittedly, my experience is with the P45+ and Hasselblad V-lenses. Also, I guess that I have not spent more than 25k$US on MFD. But from where I stand, larger than 44x33 mm MFD is old technology. Going with that technology is just wasting money, IMHO.

Spending on modern technology, like GFX and X1D, may make some sense in some cases. Spending on old technology is in my humble opinion a very bad advice.

Best regards
Erik


No such camera compensates for a lack of experience. It does deliver 100MP of detail. He just needs to learn how to work with it properly.

The 150 is a 16 year old lens, it was never designed to work with a 100MP sensor but I have found it to work surprisingly well, even so.

I use the 120mm II over the 150mm for a critical applications. But the 150mm has a very nice rendering nonetheless and it's quite quick and easy to get rid of the CA.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 19, 2018, 10:00:52 am
Yes, this is the part I don't quite understand, I would have expected Fuji to leave more space between full-frame 35 and their offering.

They only had two CMOS sensors bigger than 24x36mm to pick from, didn't they? And Fuji's presence in smaller than MF is in APS-C. It's a pretty big step from that.

Jim
Title: Large amount of P1 backs for sales—and why is 44x33mm a new standard?
Post by: BJL on May 19, 2018, 10:29:46 am
I would have expected Fuji to leave more space between full-frame 35 and their offering.
As others shave said, FujiFilm did not really make this decision: the big end of sensor formats has for whatever reason converged on three sizes: the two roughly matching film formats (36x24mm and 54x40mm) and one in between, 44x33mm.

Why this choice for the new intermediate size? It is fairly close to midway between 44x33 and 54x40, but maybe it also relates to the fabrication constraint that the maximum field size on the equipment used to make these sensors is the industry-standard 26x33mm. That might mean that a short edge of 33mm is the largest that allows fabrication by stitching in one direction only, with as few at two  fields, whereas any larger format requires stitching in two directions and at least four fields, which could lead to a significantly slower process and significantly more rejects, driving prices up substantially.

P. S. I also agree with Jim Kasson that the gap in Fujifilm's offerings from 24x16 to 44x33 is big enough: bigger percentage-wise than the film format gap from 36x24mm to the 56x42mm of "645".
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales—and why is 44x33mm a new standard?
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2018, 11:20:12 am
So Sony sell everybody including themselves 24x36 and Fuji are competing with their only supplier.

And the 24x36 sensor versions have the features that make computational photography tick,well  before Fuji gets them - eg pdaf, eye focus, fast backing memory for handheld superresolution, global shutter, just look at everything the A7 series can do.

Edmund

As others shave said, FujiFilm did not really make this decision: the big end of sensor formats has for whatever reason converged on three sizes: the two roughly matching film formats (36x24mm and 54x40mm) and one in between, 44x33mm.

Why this choice for the new intermediate size? It is fairly close to midway between 44x33 and 54x40, but maybe it also relates to the fabrication constraint that the maximum field size on the equipment used to make these sensors is the industry-standard 26x33mm. That might mean that a short edge of 33mm is the largest that allows fabrication by stitching in one direction only, with as few at two  fields, whereas any larger format requires stitching in two directions and at least four fields, which could lead to a significantly slower process and significantly more rejects, driving prices up substantially.

P. S. I also agree with Jim Kasson that the gap in Fujifilm's offerings from 24x16 to 44x33 is big enough: bigger percentage-wise than the film format gap from 36x24mm to the 56x42mm of "645".
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 19, 2018, 11:20:58 am
Hi,

Getting rid of axial chroma is pretty much impossible. What you can do is to desaturate the affected colors, essentially turning the edges into monochrome.

It may not be a problem if you don't view the images critically. But, why would you spend a lot of k$US on image quality if you don't look close?!

Admittedly, my experience is with the P45+ and Hasselblad V-lenses. Also, I guess that I have not spent more than 25k$US on MFD. But from where I stand, larger than 44x33 mm MFD is old technology. Going with that technology is just wasting money, IMHO.

Spending on modern technology, like GFX and X1D, may make some sense in some cases. Spending on old technology is in my humble opinion a very bad advice.

Best regards
Erik

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 19, 2018, 11:32:49 am
Mine does also, on static subjects located reasonnably close to the center of the frame.

On the Fuji vs X1d lenses, I have no first hand experience, but Lloyd Chambers seems to think that the Hasselblad lenses have much less sample variation.

Cheers,
Bernard
i tested the X1D twice, both times with the 45 and 90, and the first time i did a head to head between it and the A7RII with the 24-70 GM....i was mainly interested in the 45 and returned the camera thinking to myself that i would be able to save a lot of money, there was simply no difference or improvement of the 10K system over the 5K zoom....the 90 definitely looked better and showed a definite step up....this was against the A7RII not III (not out at that point)....this was an early firmware and the camera just did not seem ready to actually work with....
i ended up testing the X1D again once firmware were supposed to improve overall performance...again, 45 and 90, this time the 45 looked more like i expected from a system like this.....but 2 lenses within a few months, both provided by hasselblad knowing that they would be the ones handed out to photographers to judge the system by and night and day between them.....
this on top of still serious issues with actual handling of the camera (lags, crashes, errors and just overall sluggishness) made me (reluctantly) turn to fuji....
it seems like digital lloyd is the only person who actually had an overall bad experience with the fuji system? i honestly havent seen any review with similar findings....
the GF line is by far the smallest run in the fuji lens production but they seem to focus on it to make sure their top end really is top class.....and they can easily afford to do so....i also havent heard about any sample variation within their other lines?
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 19, 2018, 11:46:04 am
Hi,

The guy just spent a few tens of thousand dollars on an system that is supposed to deliver 100 MP of detail, having a focusing system that is supposed to compensate for camera rotation.

We don't have 100 MP on mirrorless yet, although Phase already uses the new sensor for aerial imaging.

The existing mirrorless systems allow you to select the focusing point freely, so there is no need for True Focus.

One interesting issue that was quite obvious in Neil's images that the 150 mm lens is not well corrected for axial chroma. The straight image with True Focus activated has green fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/axd8tpx0jddrfnw/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.09.51.png?raw=1)

The next image with True Focus engaged and a camera rotation has magenta fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/fs4ka1z2aegz6gc/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.12.05.png?raw=1)

After that it seems that Neil tried magnified live view and got no fringing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/difcdhkgofzq31r/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.17.11.png?raw=1)

These samples show that the HC 150 lens is not well corrected for axial chroma and that focusing may not be accurate enough to avoid axial chroma.

An interesting question may be: Would Neil achieved a better image with a 50MP camera like the X1D or the GFX?

Jim Kasson has run a lot of tests on his GFX lenses and it seems that they are very well corrected. My guess would be that X1D lenses perform at the same level.  It may be that GFX lenses have more sample variation than X1D lenses, but it seems that all lenses Jim got were pretty good.

It also seems that most lenses are pretty decent. Obviously, no lens can exceed the design criteria. Jim Kasson has developed a lens screening method. I put some of my lenses trough it and all three were pretty OK.

https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/examples/good-100mm-lens-on-p1-p45/
https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/examples/ok-60mm-lens-on-phase-one-p45/

The third lens was the Sigma 24-105/4 Art at three different focal lengths. I don't think that Jim Kasson has a public link to that lens, but he felt it was quite OK.

To sum it up a bit...
  • I don't think that old film era lens designs are a good match for today's digital sensors. They may deliver good results, but axial chroma is probably not corrected well enough.
  • Modern focusing systems allow for critical focus anywhere over the frame. Older systems have a single focus point and using that focus point for of axis focusing does induce an error. Hasselblad has developed a complex solution around the issue with "True Focus".
  • Modern, EVF based, systems use the sensor itself for focusing. A simple and good solution.
  • Both the X1D and the GFX are designed around the sensor. In all probability they are designed around 2018 sensor technology /li]
I would argue that it makes a lot of sense for newcomers to MFD to spend their money on systems that are designed for 2018 sensor technology than on systems designed for film around the turn of centuries.

Best regards
Erik
when i tested the X1D first, they handed me a H6 as well....i have never been a big fan of that camera to begin with but it really did blow my mind a little that here was the hasselblad rep, giving me 2 options H6 50 and X1D both with the same sensor, one costing 3?x as much as the other and you would be able to guess which one should be more expensive.....regardless of price, i could not come up with a single reason why anyone would go with the H6?
no matter how limited the AF of the X1D (compared to dslr and such) but it still is years ahead of the H and i wont even get into size, weight or mirrorslap and what all that does to detail and focus....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 19, 2018, 12:34:53 pm
when i tested the X1D first, they handed me a H6 as well....i have never been a big fan of that camera to begin with but it really did blow my mind a little that here was the hasselblad rep, giving me 2 options H6 50 and X1D both with the same sensor, one costing 3?x as much as the other and you would be able to guess which one should be more expensive.....regardless of price, i could not come up with a single reason why anyone would go with the H6?
no matter how limited the AF of the X1D (compared to dslr and such) but it still is years ahead of the H and i wont even get into size, weight or mirrorslap and what all that does to detail and focus....

It isn't 3x cheaper any more, they brought the price of the H-50 down.

I like the X1D but I would still choose the H for the time being. There are lots of reasons but here are a few - It is quick to operate and is a very reliable and stable system. It's been around a long time and the bugs were ironed out long ago - at least all the bugs I have ever had. It focusses very well, despite what people who have never owned it or don't have the experience using it might tell you. Trufocus works well. The ergonomics are very good. It's a more bulky camera but the design is such that it doesn't feel like it and it is very comfortable to hold on days long shoots. It is well balanced especially with the longer lenses which you can hand hold with very high resolution without issue. Despite the size it can be used like a point and shoot camera because it is well designed, even the pop up flash is something I find useful from time to time. But the main reason is the modularity. The view finder is MUCH better, it may just be the best of any camera I have tried, It's big and bright and very good for manual focussing. It has a ground glass you can mark up with your clients layout and shoot with through your prism, and you can swap the prism for for chimney finder which is even brighter and is a useful compositional aid, or you can take it off altogether which is useful for very low angles, not something you have a work around with an X1D. It is the last remaining hybrid platform and I can shoot film and digital with the one kit and without even moving the camera or taking it off the tripod. Then of course there is the IQ side of it - The possibility of using the larger sensor, now 100MP. Then there is the modularity benefits of using Hasselblad camera with a Phase One back, that's fairly significant factor in my opinion and use.

I'm interested in the X1D but at the moment it's like trying to replace your computer with an iPad. That's more of a possibility for some users than others. But the X2D could really shake things up and I am watching very closely at how it develops.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 19, 2018, 01:12:02 pm
It isn't 3x cheaper any more, they brought the price of the H-50 down.

I like the X1D but I would still choose the H. There are lots of reasons but here are a few - It is quick to operate and is a very reliable and stable system. It's been around a long time and the bugs were ironed out long ago - at least all the bugs I have ever had. It focusses very well, despite what people who have never owned it or don't have the experience using it might tell you. Trufocus works well. The ergonomics are very good. It's a more bulky camera but the design is such that it doesn't feel like it and it is very comfortable to hold on days long shoots. It is well balanced especially with the longer lenses which you can hand hold with very high resolution without issue. Despite the size it can be used like a point and shoot camera because it is well designed, even the pop up flash is something I find useful from time to time. But the main reason is the modularity. The view finder is MUCH better, it may just be the best of any camera I have tried, It's big and bright and very good for manual focussing. It has a ground glass you can mark up with your clients layout and shoot with through your prism, and you can swap the prism for for chimney finder which is even brighter and is a useful compositional aid, or you can take it off altogether which is useful for very low angles, not something you have a work around with an X1D. It is the last remaining hybrid platform and I can shoot film and digital with the one kit and without even moving the camera or taking it off the tripod. Then of course there is the IQ side of it - The possibility of using the larger sensor, now 100MP. Then there is the modularity benefits of using Hasselblad camera with a Phase One back.

I'm interested in the X1D but at the moment it's like trying to replace your computer with an iPad. That's more of a possibility for some users than others. But the X2D could really shake things up.

i have worked plenty of times with the H over the years, never really liked it.....not that any of my fuji 680, 690, 670, mamiya RZ, 645 were completely perfect but i liked working with them better....

the lack of modularity is definitely a drawback for me with the X1D but i guess that is the point of the camera....and for people who are invested in the H system, the X1D does offer that smaller body.....i just dont see many people walking into this situation and coming out with the H at this point.....even if it was the same price.....
that is the problem hasselblad is facing....more people want a much more compact, faster camera offering the same IQ at a lower price with more features.....and the X1D (to some degree) does offer that.....and investing (R&D) in the H system is probably becoming more and more expensive and difficult....and fewer people want it.....
i dont see the X2D getting more modular (yet?) unless hasselblad kills off the H at the same time....which is only a matter of time of course but not quite there yet probably....
fuji does not have any of these issues....removable finder? no problem, "chimney finder"? yep....the GFX has nothing in house to differentiate itself from....so a moveable LCD is a no brainer....maybe the back isn't the sveltest but having more room for more buttons and a focus joystick is just something people are used to and actually want.....
no matter how you look at it: the H6 body with finder (no sensor/back) costs more then the X1D or GFX right now....that is a tough thing to sell....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 19, 2018, 01:45:37 pm
i have worked plenty of times with the H over the years, never really liked it.....not that any of my fuji 680, 690, 670, mamiya RZ, 645 were completely perfect but i liked working with them better....

the lack of modularity is definitely a drawback for me with the X1D but i guess that is the point of the camera....and for people who are invested in the H system, the X1D does offer that smaller body.....i just dont see many people walking into this situation and coming out with the H at this point.....even if it was the same price.....
that is the problem hasselblad is facing....more people want a much more compact, faster camera offering the same IQ at a lower price with more features.....and the X1D (to some degree) does offer that.....and investing (R&D) in the H system is probably becoming more and more expensive and difficult....and fewer people want it.....
i dont see the X2D getting more modular (yet?) unless hasselblad kills off the H at the same time....which is only a matter of time of course but not quite there yet probably....
fuji does not have any of these issues....removable finder? no problem, "chimney finder"? yep....the GFX has nothing in house to differentiate itself from....so a moveable LCD is a no brainer....maybe the back isn't the sveltest but having more room for more buttons and a focus joystick is just something people are used to and actually want.....
no matter how you look at it: the H6 body with finder (no sensor/back) costs more then the X1D or GFX right now....that is a tough thing to sell....

I agree it's a harder sell for the H and XF, that is what this thread has largely been about. If something like the X can give me what I need in a smaller, more affordable package, with more features, then I'm taking it. It may be limited now but it's only the beginning, like when the iPad first came out it was super limited but is now becoming a viable replacement - for some it already is. The Hasselblad V-D concept is their answer to modularity and I think that looks very interesting, but maybe they will just develop a more modular X. We'll see. But I think rather than Hasselblad shooting them selves in the foot, on the contrary, I think they have potentially shot ahead of Phase One, and between Fuji and Hasselblad, they are likely to eventually take a fair bit of Phase One's market unless they have something up their sleeve. That's not something I thought I'd ever say a few years ago. I agree that people want smaller, compact, fuller featured and more affordable cameras, and higher res medium format cameras that are easier to shoot, and I think the GFX and X1D are the future of these cameras.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2018, 02:04:11 pm
Pschefz

The GREATEST ADVANTAGE of both XD and Fuji systems is that Phase is not present in this market to set excessive pricing by bribing the "pro" dealers with a huge margin, which also protects rental. So the absence of Phase allows an XD to be sold at 1/2 of the price of an equivalent MF SLR solution.

As soon as Phase enter the market, Hasselblad will start raising prices again. Fuji want to sell to japanese amateurs and they like Pentax will stay where they are.

Edmund
Title: Large amount of P1 backs for sales: cost of mirrorless body vs 50MP back
Post by: BJL on May 19, 2018, 02:50:02 pm
I have a question related to modularity and price. One obvious appeal of the body+back approach is being able to upgrade just the "sensor unit" at the back, rather than replacing the whole body, which suggests a cost advantage for sensor upgrades. But the Pentax 645 already messes with that cost comparison, and my guess is that a complete mirrorless body does not have a lot more in it than a digital back, and might inherently cost not much more; not enough to offset the initial extra cost of the MF DSLR body unless you upgrade the back many times.

However, I have not been able to find good cost comparisons: Hasselblad and Phase One prefer to talk about complete back+body purchases rather than back upgrades. Can anyone fill me in on the relative costs of the 50MP 44x33mm options:
- Fujifilm GFX (with EVF) [$6,500?]
- Hasselblad X1D-50c [US$9,500?]
- Hasselblad H6D-50c, back only [$14,500 - $8,000 = $6,500 if you can buy H6D body + VF + back and sell the body+VF at full price?!]
- Phase One IQ3 50MP back [???]


And are there other aspects of modularity? (The Fujifilm GFX offers some VF modularity.)
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: jsiva on May 19, 2018, 09:44:03 pm
Pschefz

The GREATEST ADVANTAGE of both XD and Fuji systems is that Phase is not present in this market to set excessive pricing by bribing the "pro" dealers with a huge margin, which also protects rental. So the absence of Phase allows an XD to be sold at 1/2 of the price of an equivalent MF SLR solution.

As soon as Phase enter the market, Hasselblad will start raising prices again. Fuji want to sell to japanese amateurs and they like Pentax will stay where they are.

Edmund

This stuff is McKinsey grade strategic insight, wasted on a public forum.  This should be paid for consulting to the MF industry.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 19, 2018, 11:12:07 pm
I agree it's a harder sell for the H and XF, that is what this thread has largely been about. If something like the X can give me what I need in a smaller, more affordable package, with more features, then I'm taking it. It may be limited now but it's only the beginning, like when the iPad first came out it was super limited but is now becoming a viable replacement - for some it already is. The Hasselblad V-D concept is their answer to modularity and I think that looks very interesting, but maybe they will just develop a more modular X. We'll see. But I think rather than Hasselblad shooting them selves in the foot, on the contrary, I think they have potentially shot ahead of Phase One, and between Fuji and Hasselblad, they are likely to eventually take a fair bit of Phase One's market unless they have something up their sleeve. That's not something I thought I'd ever say a few years ago. I agree that people want smaller, compact, fuller featured and more affordable cameras, and higher res medium format cameras that are easier to shoot, and I think the GFX and X1D are the future of these cameras.
this is exactly what this thread is about and i dont think hasselblad has shot themselves in the foot at all....on the contrary...they pulled their head out of the noose.....if it is hard to justify paying 8K for a H body without sensor, it seems crazy to do the same for a phase body....
in reality we should stop calling hasselblad hasselblad and start calling them DJI....who make incredible products, their drones are insane across the line, i am very confident that they will bring some great stuff to the discussion....and i doubt we will have to worry about crazy high pricing.....their high end drone line and lenses could be a lot more.....hasselblad started it with the X1D, fuji with the GFX, the line is drawn in the sand.....i doubt the 100mpix models will be more then 10k.....and it will go from there.....

the modular approach, keeping the sensor separate from the body, not so sure it works.....there is a reason we buy iMacs and laptops and sell then 2 or 3 year later.....connections, drives, all tech changes so fast, if i see a fw800 port nowadays, i just dont know what to with it anymore.....the used market it getting more and more sophisticated, it gets easier and easier to sell the stuff fast to people who want it and use it....and sell it on again.....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on May 20, 2018, 03:40:12 am
I don't think that the new mirrorless MF cameras (X1D, GFX) are for the same people than the older ones. We don't have a situation where a photographer will upgrade from a H5 or XF camera to a X1D or GFX. We have a situation where the photographers with H5 or XF keep what they have and don't upgrade and plenty of new customers buy the X1D or GFX. 
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 20, 2018, 09:55:50 am
Hi,

An interesting question...

Hasselblad essentially reduced pricing on the H6D50c to X1D + HX5 level.

It is quite probable that existing H6D and FX owners don't switch to the X1D or the GFX. With the H6D, users can buy an X1D or GFX and continue using their existing lens system.

It is interesting to see how Phase One responds. But, they may live in a different market than Hasselblad. My understanding is that Hasselblad would not survived without DJI investments. So, sales of the existing systems were obviously not sufficient to keep the company afloat.

Phase One may have a different business model. The question is of course if the existing customer base buys into the coming 150 MP sensors. Phase One survived competition from Hasselblad, Pentax 645Z and Leica S.

Best regards
Erik



I don't think that the new mirrorless MF cameras (X1D, GFX) are for the same people than the older ones. We don't have a situation where a photographer will upgrade from a H5 or XF camera to a X1D or GFX. We have a situation where the photographers with H5 or XF keep what they have and don't upgrade and plenty of new customers buy the X1D or GFX.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 20, 2018, 09:56:55 am
I don't think that the new mirrorless MF cameras (X1D, GFX) are for the same people than the older ones. We don't have a situation where a photographer will upgrade from a H5 or XF camera to a X1D or GFX. We have a situation where the photographers with H5 or XF keep what they have and don't upgrade and plenty of new customers buy the X1D or GFX.

I few months after I started using the GFX, I sold all my H-series cameras and lenses, and the V-series lenses as well.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on May 20, 2018, 11:01:50 am
I don't think photographers using H series cameras for a living are likely to use an X1D of GXF with their H lenses. They lose AF and, in a commercial settings, that is probably not an option. Just as well: I don't think the very limited selection of lenses for these cameras makes the X1D or GFX a viable alternative for most professional users. I believe that the market for mirrorless MF is mainly rich amateurs.

Then, the professional photographers I know to use medium format cameras use them in a studio setting for the tethering function. One needs the central shutter high-speed flash sync. The others mostly do product photography and do not need a high pixel count, so they did not upgrade from the H4 or even more ancient models. They will be compelled to upgrade when firewire dies on them, but not before.

The rental market also appears to have changed in the past two years. It used to be that one could rent medium format cameras and the full selection of lenses in every large city in Europe. I may be mistaken, but the offer appears to have shrunk considerably (only for medium format, not for lights, etc...). You can rent the X1D or GFX, but mainly from rentals catering to advanced amateurs. Using the rental market as a proxy, I therefore believe that medium format has lost market share for the kind of production where a pro is likely to rent (not the one doing product shoots all day in a studio, it makes business sense for these to buy or lease). I think this was to be expected, since 24x36 has become sufficient for the majority of this kind of shootings (except, maybe, when flash is needed outside).
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 20, 2018, 11:41:15 am
Pschefz

As soon as Phase enter the market, Hasselblad will start raising prices again. Fuji want to sell to japanese amateurs and they like Pentax will stay where they are.

Edmund
I disagree. The X1D has been the biggest seller in Hasselblad's history. If anything, they'll continue to drive the price down so that they can increase their customer base and market share. DJI didn't buy Hasselblad just to sell to the handful of pros who need 100 mp files to deliver to clients. They want to grow their business, not keep it small.

Besides, I fail to see how having more competition in the market will somehow drive prices up. Fuji came into the market at a $6,500 price point. Hasselblad followed suit to stay competitive. If Phase wants to keep up, they're going to have to deliver a mirrorless camera at a similar if not lower price point. Either that or they just stick to the high end pro market and watch its competitors gobble up the MF market and eventually push them into irrelevance.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 11:51:33 am
I disagree. The X1D has been the biggest seller in Hasselblad's history. If anything, they'll continue to drive the price down so that they can increase their customer base and market share. DJI didn't buy Hasselblad just to sell to the handful of pros who need 100 mp files to deliver to clients. They want to grow their business, not keep it small.

Besides, I fail to see how having more competition in the market will somehow drive prices up. Fuji came into the market at a $6,500 price point. Hasselblad followed suit to stay competitive. If Phase wants to keep up, they're going to have to deliver a mirrorless camera at a similar if not lower price point. Either that or they just stick to the high end pro market and watch its competitors gobble up the MF market and eventually push them into irrelevance.
this
there is no way DJI will raise prices...prices will go lower...mostly because the next sony nikon bodies will come to 60 or 80 mpix, are pretty amazingly close in IQ now and offer a completely different level of speed....fuji and DJI know this very well and will make sure IQ still has a leg up, speed and functionality somehow gets closer to the sony/nikons and prices stay within reach.....which in turn makes any H or phase system trying to catch the top top top end at 50K even harder to swallow.....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 20, 2018, 11:59:18 am
I don't think that the new mirrorless MF cameras (X1D, GFX) are for the same people than the older ones. We don't have a situation where a photographer will upgrade from a H5 or XF camera to a X1D or GFX. We have a situation where the photographers with H5 or XF keep what they have and don't upgrade and plenty of new customers buy the X1D or GFX.
I did just that. My H5 is now for sale on ebay in case you're interested. ;-)

Once you shoot with the X1D, it's hard to stick with the heavy, clunky, slow, H series cameras. The only thing thing the H has going for it is that you don't have the blackout after every capture. That's annoying when you're trying to photograph people. The H isn't any faster mind you but the optical viewfinder allows you to stay connected to your subject. Granted, if you're a pro who shoots glued to C1, then then X1D isn't a complete solution, but then again, nothing is.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 12:10:12 pm
I don't think photographers using H series cameras for a living are likely to use an X1D of GXF with their H lenses. They lose AF and, in a commercial settings, that is probably not an option. Just as well: I don't think the very limited selection of lenses for these cameras makes the X1D or GFX a viable alternative for most professional users. I believe that the market for mirrorless MF is mainly rich amateurs.

Then, the professional photographers I know to use medium format cameras use them in a studio setting for the tethering function. One needs the central shutter high-speed flash sync. The others mostly do product photography and do not need a high pixel count, so they did not upgrade from the H4 or even more ancient models. They will be compelled to upgrade when firewire dies on them, but not before.

The rental market also appears to have changed in the past two years. It used to be that one could rent medium format cameras and the full selection of lenses in every large city in Europe. I may be mistaken, but the offer appears to have shrunk considerably (only for medium format, not for lights, etc...). You can rent the X1D or GFX, but mainly from rentals catering to advanced amateurs. Using the rental market as a proxy, I therefore believe that medium format has lost market share for the kind of production where a pro is likely to rent (not the one doing product shoots all day in a studio, it makes business sense for these to buy or lease). I think this was to be expected, since 24x36 has become sufficient for the majority of this kind of shootings (except, maybe, when flash is needed outside).
the only time anyone i know has used an H or phase system is rental....this goes for the last 10(?) years...before that people (including myself) actually owned these things....product and high end car advertising is probably the exception....for all commercial (advertising, fashion, catalog, celebrity...) photography DSLR and lately mirrorless has replaced MF systems for years....one of the reasons is that budgets have been trimmed left and right and it just makes more sense to buy a 3K camera and charge a rental fee and have the thing paid off with a few jobs...much easier then trying to do the same with a 30/40/50k system that is 2 generations old once paid off and really offers no real advantage other then the "wow, we are shooting with a hasselblad" on set....
which brings me to another point: almost everybody i know and most people coming up whose work i admire shoot film....in commercial setting....hipster/analog trend whatever it is or whatever you want to call it....people are doing it and art directors and agencies are eating it up....having a film project going and/or having that pentax 67 on set is the way to go these days....
it used to be that the H or phase systems were sitting on set and everything was really shot with a 5D (I,II,III).....nowadays everything is shot with nikon (and slowly) sony and still a lot of canon.....but the hasselblad on set will be a 500.....and if it is a hasselblad it definitely is a 500 and not a H6 with film back....not retro enough! lots of polaroids (instax is ok) and there I even heard of someone shooting old digital cameras (?!) as in bad old casio and who knows what first gen digitals "for the look"...
mainstream photography sites providing instructions on how to make wet plates for large format shooting!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 12:19:18 pm
Granted, if you're a pro who shoots glued to C1, then then X1D isn't a complete solution, but then again, nothing is.
very good point.....a friend of mine is dying to use my GFX for a job, he has played with it but he only shoots tethered to C1....and in reality his 850 and A7RIII are getting him what he needs by a mile....
he was also the last person i talked to who was "forced" to shoot a rented H on a job....he had the "yearly medium format itch" just before that and was pretty excited to work with it again....problem is that since the last time he had worked on a job with an H system, the world has turned...and he had gotten the 850 and his sony.....and he got to play with the GFX....i dont think a single frame from the H made it into the final edit....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 20, 2018, 12:19:35 pm
I did just that. My H5 is now for sale on ebay in case you're interested. ;-)

Once you shoot with the X1D, it's hard to stick with the heavy, clunky, slow, H series cameras. The only thing thing the H has going for it is that you don't have the blackout after every capture. That's annoying when you're trying to photograph people. The H isn't any faster mind you but the optical viewfinder allows you to stay connected to your subject. Granted, if you're a pro who shoots glued to C1, then then X1D isn't a complete solution, but then again, nothing is.

Yeah I've been shooting Hasselblad with a Phase One back for a long time. I am set to buy the X2D and make the switch but I will likely keep the H for the time being and run the systems see by side. That also means using Phocus instead of Capture One but really, a raw developer isn't enough to keep me from switching. All I need is a reliable tether connection and the basic exposure colour and curves palette to be honest and Phocus seems pretty decent these days.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 20, 2018, 12:25:58 pm
the only time anyone i know has used an H or phase system is rental....this goes for the last 10(?) years...before that people (including myself) actually owned these things....product and high end car advertising is probably the exception....for all commercial (advertising, fashion, catalog, celebrity...) photography DSLR and lately mirrorless has replaced MF systems for years....one of the reasons is that budgets have been trimmed left and right and it just makes more sense to buy a 3K camera and charge a rental fee and have the thing paid off with a few jobs...much easier then trying to do the same with a 30/40/50k system that is 2 generations old once paid off and really offers no real advantage other then the "wow, we are shooting with a hasselblad" on set....
which brings me to another point: almost everybody i know and most people coming up whose work i admire shoot film....in commercial setting....hipster/analog trend whatever it is or whatever you want to call it....people are doing it and art directors and agencies are eating it up....having a film project going and/or having that pentax 67 on set is the way to go these days....
it used to be that the H or phase systems were sitting on set and everything was really shot with a 5D (I,II,III).....nowadays everything is shot with nikon (and slowly) sony and still a lot of canon.....but the hasselblad on set will be a 500.....and if it is a hasselblad it definitely is a 500 and not a H6 with film back....not retro enough! lots of polaroids (instax is ok) and there I even heard of someone shooting old digital cameras (?!) as in bad old casio and who knows what first gen digitals "for the look"...
mainstream photography sites providing instructions on how to make wet plates for large format shooting!

The film comment is probably the most interesting and relevant today I find. It's popularity is continually growing and it's getting to the stage where in some segments of the market it's what is becoming most common. To the point if you're not shooting film then you're not really keeping up.

The H is the last remaining system that allows you to shoot film and digital with the one system and going forward, once we've consumed all the legacy Contax 645's, RZ's, Mamiya 7's and Pentax 67's, then what? Theses cameras are already getting crazy expensive.

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 20, 2018, 12:42:11 pm
Yeah I've been shooting Hasselblad with a Phase One back for a long time. I am set to buy the X2D and make the switch but I will likely keep the H for the time being and run the systems see by side. That also means using Phocus instead of Capture One but really, a raw developer isn't enough to keep me from switching. All I need is a reliable tether connection and the basic exposure colour and curves palette to be honest and Phocus seems pretty decent these days.
Tethering with the X1D is solid and easy. Tether Tools recently came out with longer, heavy duty USB C cable so you're not stuck with the small one that comes with the camera. Phocus is okay. Never really bothered to dig into it though. I use it for capture but then do all of my adjustments in Lightroom. Would love to be able to shoot directly to Lightroom.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 01:16:15 pm
Tethering with the X1D is solid and easy. Tether Tools recently came out with longer, heavy duty USB C cable so you're not stuck with the small one that comes with the camera. Phocus is okay. Never really bothered to dig into it though. I use it for capture but then do all of my adjustments in Lightroom. Would love to be able to shoot directly to Lightroom.
have you tried a "watched folder" option in LR? focus to shoot into a folder and open the files directly in LR.....dont see why that should not work? fuji provides a plug in for LR actually works great and my workflow is all in LR these days anyway, so C1 is not really an issue for me....
Phocus is ok but i would not be surprised DJI pulling the plug on that pretty fast, not sure how much sense it makes to try and compete and put money into a piece of software that wont bring you customers and nobody else can use, especially when everybody really wants to use other software anyway....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 01:19:41 pm
The film comment is probably the most interesting and relevant today I find. It's popularity is continually growing and it's getting to the stage where in some segments of the market it's what is becoming most common. To the point if you're not shooting film then you're not really keeping up.

The H is the last remaining system that allows you to shoot film and digital with the one system and going forward, once we've consumed all the legacy Contax 645's, RZ's, Mamiya 7's and Pentax 67's, then what? Theses cameras are already getting crazy expensive.
it's a little like CD being dead and not coming back.....and records (and record players!) are making a huge comeback....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 20, 2018, 02:39:21 pm
Yes,

But that is because CD-s have been replaced by new technology, like spotify.

Best regards
Erik


it's a little like CD being dead and not coming back.....and records (and record players!) are making a huge comeback....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 20, 2018, 02:51:02 pm
Regarding the competition between very high-rez SLRs and crop MF,  it is one between fast 24x36 and slowish 33x44 cameras and in the end I think it's a lot about 2/3 or 3/4 aspect ratio.

As the sensors are mostly from the same stable, I would think the 24x36 is competitive with the bigger cam if you want a longish 2/3 format or all those PDAF, eyefocus, 3 frames/sec or frame-from-4K tricks (all useful in fashion), while the 33x44 is a really clear win on image quality if you shoot 3/4 and can live with low fps and slow focus, as in landscape or travel. 

Lastly, the really big sensors are a clear win on anybody in terms of image quality, so I guess they won't go away completely for a long while, especially for anything that is static or aerial - so Phase are going to stay in business with their existing designs and archival solutions for some time even if they muddle up their transition to mirrorless.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 20, 2018, 03:43:30 pm
Yes,

But that is because CD-s have been replaced by new technology, like spotify.

Best regards
Erik
to get philosophical about it....nobody liked CDs....people had a connection with their albums, staring at a CD cover while its playing just isn't the same....and streaming is just so much more convenient then anything else....
in a way nobody really loved digital MF....i personally never liked 35mm film that much but always loved big negatives....and 645 was always a little bit of a compromise for MF and at this point is pretty much clear that we will never have those big beautiful optical finders we enjoyed in 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9 film cameras.....there is no reason whatsoever to not have huge EVFs though.....i would much rather have a 100mpix 33x44 sensor with a huge EVF (along with all advantages mirrorless brings) then a 100mpix 645 size optical finder on a system that is 3 x the size, weight and is a **** to focus.....
we can search back in these forums to look for everybody asking for bigger and bigger area sensors.....it hasn't happened and it wont happen now anymore.....
so people shoot film to get the huge negative satisfaction along with a finished look in (or out of) camera....or smaller sensors to get 5 tack sharp shots per sec at f1.4.....or just to get the job done faster because the shot list is 25 these days....not including video...

which btw is another point.....a larger sensor with huge DR shooting 4K is very interesting for the motion crowd which is blowing up as well....and a good camera bringing a little "extra look" to a production under 10K is definitely interesting....
the GFX is very limited because of the sensor but it shoots very, very nice HD....i havent seen the raw files from the X1D but i am sure they are very nice.....and neither camera is made for this, video is a complete afterthought with these 2 but with the next sensors video will be a feature...
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jeffery Salter on May 20, 2018, 04:19:17 pm
the only time anyone i know has used an H or phase system is rental....this goes for the last 10(?) years...before that people (including myself) actually owned these things....product and high end car advertising is probably the exception....for all commercial (advertising, fashion, catalog, celebrity...) photography DSLR and lately mirrorless has replaced MF systems for years....one of the reasons is that budgets have been trimmed left and right and it just makes more sense to buy a 3K camera and charge a rental fee and have the thing paid off with a few jobs...much easier then trying to do the same with a 30/40/50k system that is 2 generations old once paid off and really offers no real advantage other then the "wow, we are shooting with a hasselblad" on set....
which brings me to another point: almost everybody i know and most people coming up whose work i admire shoot film....in commercial setting....hipster/analog trend whatever it is or whatever you want to call it....people are doing it and art directors and agencies are eating it up....having a film project going and/or having that pentax 67 on set is the way to go these days....
it used to be that the H or phase systems were sitting on set and everything was really shot with a 5D (I,II,III).....nowadays everything is shot with nikon (and slowly) sony and still a lot of canon.....but the hasselblad on set will be a 500.....and if it is a hasselblad it definitely is a 500 and not a H6 with film back....not retro enough! lots of polaroids (instax is ok) and there I even heard of someone shooting old digital cameras (?!) as in bad old casio and who knows what first gen digitals "for the look"...
mainstream photography sites providing instructions on how to make wet plates for large format shooting!


Hmmm.  I don't know if I agree with any or all of the above.  Just too much picking of specific cases to make a lot of broad claims.  Here are a few of my thoughts on this post.

For example  on "all" commercial ......MFD systems being replaced by 35mm sized DSLRS? 

Charging the client for "rental" on a Canon/ Nikon when the Art director's son/daughter has the same camera?  Perhaps you mean adjusting the overall production equipment budget for a bit of flex to cover them....

What about "ecommerce" studios or celebrity portraiture for movie posters?  Do you think the client of who commissions this type of assignments wants it shot of film?  Highly unlikely. 

Yes it's easy to find specific individuals using film.  The portrait photographer Platon has created a style, using film along with lighting and his ability to connect with the subject and he's hired for that.  Clients will wait because that's why they hired him for.  However I would hardly say "art directors and agencies are eating this up"?  if you can produce compelling imagery or execute interesting concepts which will help the  AD or Ad agencies produce campaigns that make the client's product look great or sell, then it doesn't matter what you shoot.  Sure if you want to have a film camera on set or polaroid cool, but you better back it with a digital camera.  The real truth is once you have lost a client it's extremely difficult to get them back.  Oh.  Blaming the lab, or the delivery service for losing the film or the airline sercurity for fogging the film just won't cut it.

And speaking of the 6x7 Pentax, in the film days, you needed at least three to five on set, in order to keep the shooting flow going, an assistant could keep loading them while you were shooting and it was nice to have a back up camera in the event of a  malfunction.  Not to mention you were limited by the flash sync speed of only 1/30 of a second.  Nonetheless the camera in the right situation could produce some images with a great appeal.   The iconic fashion photographer Bruce Webber produced quite a bit of work with the  Pentax 6 x 7.

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 20, 2018, 04:38:32 pm
Hi,

I would guess that clients hire photographers on competence.

Best regards
Erik


Hmmm.  I don't know if I agree with any or all of the above.  Just too much picking of specific cases to make a lot of broad claims.  Here are a few of my thoughts on this post.

For example  on "all" commercial ......MFD systems being replaced by 35mm sized DSLRS? 

Charging the client for "rental" on a Canon/ Nikon when the Art director's son/daughter has the same camera?  Perhaps you mean adjusting the overall production equipment budget for a bit of flex to cover them....

What about "ecommerce" studios or celebrity portraiture for movie posters?  Do you think the client of who commissions this type of assignments wants it shot of film?  Highly unlikely. 

Yes it's easy to find specific individuals using film.  The portrait photographer Platon has created a style, using film along with lighting and his ability to connect with the subject and he's hired for that.  Clients will wait because that's why they hired him for.  However I would hardly say "art directors and agencies are eating this up"?  if you can produce compelling imagery or execute interesting concepts which will help the  AD or Ad agencies produce campaigns that make the client's product look great or sell, then it doesn't matter what you shoot.  Sure if you want to have a film camera on set or polaroid cool, but you better back it with a digital camera.  The real truth is once you have lost a client it's extremely difficult to get them back.  Oh.  Blaming the lab, or the delivery service for losing the film or the airline sercurity for fogging the film just won't cut it.

And speaking of the 6x7 Pentax, in the film days, you needed at least three to five on set, in order to keep the shooting flow going, an assistant could keep loading them while you were shooting and it was nice to have a back up camera in the event of a  malfunction.  Not to mention you were limited by the flash sync speed of only 1/30 of a second.  Nonetheless the camera in the right situation could produce some images with a great appeal.   The iconic fashion photographer Bruce Webber produced quite a bit of work with the  Pentax 6 x 7.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 20, 2018, 04:48:58 pm
There are commercial projects I would never shoot on film - it's just not right for some things. Also, some clients just want digital.

Medium Format digital is very prevalent in fashion / commercial. No denying film's resurgence though.

I use 35mm digital and film, medium format digital and film and some large format too.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 20, 2018, 05:18:22 pm
Hi,

I would guess that clients hire photographers on competence.

Best regards
Erik

Sure, just like women buy their clothes for their convenience and durability :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 20, 2018, 05:29:56 pm
Bruce Weber may have a Pentax 67 somewhere, and so did Sante d'Orazio and, unfortunately, for a while so did I. I have watched a video of Peter Lindbergh fighting one slip around the tripod head as he tried doing verticals... That nice Mr Testino also played around with them

My opinion? Unless you used one of the two shuttered lenses, you were fighting yourself. Never mind mirror bounce: the friggin' focal plane shutter was its own worst enemy in that regard.

Frankly, I have become so suspicious of public displays of names using brands that I hardly believe anything I see.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 20, 2018, 05:51:37 pm
The resurgence of vinyl in audio was supported by a huge inflow of turntables, that I would qualify as unheard of even in the grand days of record replay.

I find it very strange that the resurgence of film isn't backed up by innovation in scanning.

Scanning has never been this poor, with existing drum scanners barely surviving thanks to some remaining few skilled technicians, Hasselblad not having releasing anything significant in years and still charging 5 times too much... and Epson continuing to market consumer products to photographers who don't know better. Yes, you can get a decent scan on the latest Epson (I own one), but it is nowhere near what I used to get from my 15 years old SCSI Imacon.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BJL on May 20, 2018, 06:35:59 pm
The resurgence of vinyl in audio was supported by a huge inflow of turntables, that I would qualify as unheard of even in the grand days of record replay.

I find it very strange that the resurgence of film isn't backed up by innovation in scanning.
Firstly, I suspect that both of these resurgences are more about big year-on-year percentage increases in what are still small numbers. (Sort of like Nikon's recent profits?!)  Secondly, I have no idea of the relative magnitude of these two "comebacks".

Can anyone compare compare vinyl album sales now to say 1983 (when the CD arrived), or film sales to those in 2000?) And are there revenue figures for either of these "historic formats"?

Also, film cameras themselves are scarcely being made, and they are essential whereas a scanner is somewhat optional: maybe a lot of the new film users are purists, using only chemical processes, not scanners? That is the case with the photography students that I see on my campus: a lot of them are silver halide all the way.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 20, 2018, 08:16:19 pm
Firstly, I suspect that both of these resurgences are more about big year-on-year percentage increases in what are still small numbers. (Sort of like Nikon's recent profits?!)  Secondly, I have no idea of the relative magnitude of these two "comebacks".

Can anyone compare compare vinyl album sales now to say 1983 (when the CD arrived), or film sales to those in 2000?) And are there revenue figures for either of these "historic formats"?

Also, film cameras themselves are scarcely being made, and they are essential whereas a scanner is somewhat optional: maybe a lot of the new film users are purists, using only chemical processes, not scanners? That is the case with the photography students that I see on my campus: a lot of them are silver halide all the way.

For the vinyl revival:

- in 1994: 680 millions CDs were sold in the US vs 600,000 vinyls -> ratio of 1,100
- in 2017: 87 millions CDs were sold vs 13 million vinyls -> ratio of 7 (yes, I know, CDs were replaced by downloads and then streaming)

Speaking of vinyls alone, they went from 300,000 in 1993 to 13 millions in 2017, meaning 43 times increase in 25 years.

Today, vinyls represent about 7% of music sales in the US.

I don't have the global figures, but we can probably multiply the US figures by 3.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 20, 2018, 08:41:34 pm
There are commercial projects I would never shoot on film - it's just not right for some things. Also, some clients just want digital.

Medium Format digital is very prevalent in fashion / commercial. No denying film's resurgence though.

On the streets of NY, every "photographer" under 30 has a film camera slung around their neck. Lot's of old Canon's and Nikons. Saw a kid with a Nikon F3 and motordrive yesterday. That was a brief skip down memory lane. I think for that generation, it's just a cool thing. Plus they can't afford $3,000 DSLRs so they buy a thrift store special and go to town. On the other hand, when it comes to pros, every pro shoot I've seen on the street is all digital. For most pros and most clients, speed and cost is primary. No time nor budget for film. 
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 20, 2018, 08:54:59 pm
Back on the topic of MF gear... if anyone is interested in getting into MF digital, now's a great time. Been selling my Hasselblad HC lenses and my H5 40 MP camera. I'm getting killed on price. The prices for used HC equipment used to be fairly stable, but the bottom seems to have fallen out now that the X1D is out there. Wish I had sold my gear last year.

ps: If anybody is interested in my camera here's the link: H5-40 with extra batteries (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5575378759&campid=5338273189&customid=&icep_item=302721324019&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg&toolid=11111). 
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 20, 2018, 09:20:41 pm
Back on the topic of MF gear... if anyone is interested in getting into MF digital, now's a great time. Been selling my Hasselblad HC lenses and my H5 40 MP camera. I'm getting killed on price. The prices for used HC equipment used to be fairly stable, but the bottom seems to have fallen out now that the X1D is out there. Wish I had sold my gear last year.

ps: If anybody is interested in my camera here's the link: H5-40 with extra batteries (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5575378759&campid=5338273189&customid=&icep_item=302721324019&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg&toolid=11111).

I sold my HxD bodies and HC lenses a couple of months after the GFX came out, and I was amazed at how much I got for them. I guess things have deteriorated since then.

Jim
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 04:12:34 am
On the streets of NY, every "photographer" under 30 has a film camera slung around their neck. Lot's of old Canon's and Nikons. Saw a kid with a Nikon F3 and motordrive yesterday. That was a brief skip down memory lane. I think for that generation, it's just a cool thing. Plus they can't afford $3,000 DSLRs so they buy a thrift store special and go to town. On the other hand, when it comes to pros, every pro shoot I've seen on the street is all digital. For most pros and most clients, speed and cost is primary. No time nor budget for film.

Film is the dominant look in fashion for at least 5 years now.

Even the cheapo newspapers are adding film rebates to their pictures. I saw one on the weekend that had a social event with flash on camera with a 4x5 rebate that read ISO 64.  ;D

Conversely it's interesting that the old Film Guard like Juergen Teller and Tim Walker are now shooting Digital.

RZ and Pentax 67 are the most popular. It's irrelevant what the flash sync of the Pentax 67 is because it's nearly all continuous light now anyway. The Pentax 67 is perfectly suited to fashion and the lenses are stunning.

There's no telling how long it will stay like this but most said it was a flash in the pan and wouldn't last. But then, there are others saying that digital photography has had it's day and people had fatigued with all the hideous photoshop that was happening. Nothing was believable anymore and people got tired of fake.

Either way, I think it's refreshing to see someone like Petra Collins shooting all these big campaigns and editorials on a very old and simple Minolta 35mm camera.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 07:50:18 am
Film is the dominant look in fashion for at least 5 years now.

Even the cheapo newspapers are adding film rebates to their pictures. I saw one on the weekend that had a social event with flash on camera with a 4x5 rebate that read ISO 64.  ;D

Conversely it's interesting that the old Film Guard like Juergen Teller and Tim Walker are now shooting Digital.

RZ and Pentax 67 are the most popular. It's irrelevant what the flash sync of the Pentax 67 is because it's nearly all continuous light now anyway. The Pentax 67 is perfectly suited to fashion and the lenses are stunning.

There's no telling how long it will stay like this but most said it was a flash in the pan and wouldn't last. But then, there are others saying that digital photography has had it's day and people had fatigued with all the hideous photoshop that was happening. Nothing was believable anymore and people got tired of fake.

Either way, I think it's refreshing to see someone like Petra Collins shooting all these big campaigns and editorials on a very old and simple Minolta 35mm camera.


But don't you think the Petra Effect is all about style, regardless of camera?

I did all my distant career on film; today, starting over, it wouldn't make sense for me, anymore than it finally did for Lindbergh. He can make his Nikon pix look any way that he wants them to look.

If you are talking about an ultimate fate as a gallery print, on WSG, then yeah, film is a great idea. But, for commercial reproduction? It's pretty much a conceit, nada mas.

Rob

Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 08:51:56 am

But don't you think the Petra Effect is all about style, regardless of camera?

I did all my distant career on film; today, starting over, it wouldn't make sense for me, anymore than it finally did for Lindbergh. He can make his Nikon pix look any way that he wants them to look.

If you are talking about an ultimate fate as a gallery print, on WSG, then yeah, film is a great idea. But, for commercial reproduction? It's pretty much a conceit, nada mas.

Rob

The current dominant aesthetic is film.

Fashion photography has always been about style. Petra has a genuine sensibility to her work that is also tied in with her aesthetic and the camera she uses. Same for Harley Weir who is mostly responsible for the change in aesthetic that fashion has gone though.

Like I said earlier, there are some commercial projects I wouldn't consider on film and there are some clients that wouldn't entertain the possibility of film either.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BJL on May 21, 2018, 08:59:47 am
For the vinyl revival:

- in 1994: 680 millions CDs were sold in the US vs 600,000 vinyls -> ratio of 1,100
- in 2017: 87 millions CDs were sold vs 13 million vinyls -> ratio of 7 (yes, I know, CDs were replaced by downloads and then streaming)

Lacking pre-CD-era data (and I cannot resist the historical note that by the time CD's arrived, LPs were in second place for sales behind cassette tapes!), I will take that 680 million as a conservative estimate of total music sales, which were probably rather more  (about one billion?) by 2017 counting all music consumption sales including downloads and streaming subscriptions. So vinyl has rebounded to somewhere around 2%.

Speaking of vinyls alone, they went from 300,000 in 1993 to 13 millions in 2017, meaning 43 times increase in 25 years.
That is the big percentage increase from a very very small share to a very small share that I expected.

Today, vinyls represent about 7% of music sales in the US.
No! Only as sales of music on physical media ("vinyl plus polycarbonate"), which your data indicate are only about 10% or less of all sales.


Getting back to film, my hunch (based on what I see on the shelves of cameras stores and in student photographic works) is that there is a similar trend, with black and white film increasing its share of total film sales. People who choose to go retro tend to avoid half measures!
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 21, 2018, 09:48:30 am
No! Only as sales of music on physical media ("vinyl plus polycarbonate"), which your data indicate are only about 10% or less of all sales.

Yes, you are correct.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on May 21, 2018, 09:49:36 am

But don't you think the Petra Effect is all about style, regardless of camera?

I did all my distant career on film; today, starting over, it wouldn't make sense for me, anymore than it finally did for Lindbergh. He can make his Nikon pix look any way that he wants them to look.

If you are talking about an ultimate fate as a gallery print, on WSG, then yeah, film is a great idea. But, for commercial reproduction? It's pretty much a conceit, nada mas.

Rob

Rob,

 It's a fashion.
 Explaining to people that it *has to* be film etc etc, is like explaining that it *must* be an 80MP Phase back etc etc.

 On the other hand, I never understood why the commercial infrastructure for film disappeared so completely.  I think it's a case of the wedding ring getting thrown out during the housecleaning, everybody involved in the film industry panicked and investors pulled the rug out from under them. The disappearance of Polaroid is a case in point, instant photography remained economically perfectly viable, as Instax prove every day.

Edmund
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 21, 2018, 09:57:00 am
Rob,

 It's a fashion.
 Explaining to people that it *has to* be film etc etc, is like explaining that it *must* be an 80MP Phase back etc etc.

 On the other hand, I never understood why the commercial infrastructure for film disappeared so completely.  I think it's a case of the wedding ring getting thrown out during the housecleaning, everybody involved in the film industry panicked and investors pulled the rug out from under them. The disappearance of Polaroid is a case in point, instant photography remained economically perfectly viable, as Instax prove every day.

Edmund

It did all vanish very quickly didn’t it. I worked in labs. It was my thing. Never wanted to shoot commercially. Wanted to do art photography in my spare time. The one lab I worked at went from 80 employees to 10 in two years. Not because they panicked but because they stopped getting work. The huge dip and dunk E6 processors are tough to keep in tolerance below certain throughputs. Costs go up as you try to keep it going and then long leases are them alive. It happened so quickly there wasn’t money to downsize. In 1995 the slide began, they went bankrupt in 1998.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 10:08:22 am
Rob,

 It's a fashion.
 Explaining to people that it *has to* be film etc etc, is like explaining that it *must* be an 80MP Phase back etc etc.

 On the other hand, I never understood why the commercial infrastructure for film disappeared so completely.  I think it's a case of the wedding ring getting thrown out during the housecleaning, everybody involved in the film industry panicked and investors pulled the rug out from under them. The disappearance of Polaroid is a case in point, instant photography remained economically perfectly viable, as Instax prove every day.

Edmund

The problem with Polaroid was that the company fell into the hands of a fraudulent individual, now in prison, who ran the company into the ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petters
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 10:21:58 am
The current dominant aesthetic is film.

Fashion photography has always been about style. Petra has a genuine sensibility to her work that is also tied in with her aesthetic and the camera she uses. Same for Harley Weir who is mostly responsible for the change in aesthetic that fashion has gone though.

Like I said earlier, there are some commercial projects I wouldn't consider on film and there are some clients that wouldn't entertain the possibility of film either.

Thing is, nothing this pair does is new. Think Corrine Day, the two Sorrenti brothers. Teller? Even the younger Richardson?

To be brutally honest, I think fashion photography has forced itself into an ever-tightening noose of self-reference. Nothing is new; everything is derivative. I'm just waiting for the new Lillian Bassman to appear (unless I just missed her!).

That's a reason for my admiration for Peter Lindbergh: he has always been the same guy, working the same old aesthetic with the same aplomb and success. I think the same could probably be said of Albert Watson. They are so good at what they do that there is just no need to change or loose it; I can't say I see any difference between Hans Feurer today and the Hans Feurer of the 70s. The thing is, when you are just so goddam good, you are indestructible.

If there is any weakness, it's in the clients who are so worried about their image that they can no longer see beyond it, to the extent that I believe they fail to see the mess some of their solutions really turn out to be. But who's gonna tell them? Too much money involved, too much insecurity in the entire business. In an episode of Canada's Fashion television series with Jeanne Beker, Helmut Newton declared that fashion had changed for the worse, simply because everything had become such a big deal, so much money was involved in it, and he regretted the passing of the days when photographers were let out onto the streets of Paris like mad dogs...

Even back then, I understood exactly what he was saying.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 10:46:18 am
Rob,

It's a fashion.
 Explaining to people that it *has to* be film etc etc, is like explaining that it *must* be an 80MP Phase back etc etc.

 On the other hand, I never understood why the commercial infrastructure for film disappeared so completely.  I think it's a case of the wedding ring getting thrown out during the housecleaning, everybody involved in the film industry panicked and investors pulled the rug out from under them. The disappearance of Polaroid is a case in point, instant photography remained economically perfectly viable, as Instax prove every day.

Edmund

Yes, and so stupid, when it can be replicated perfectly well via digital processing. The single advantage that I can see to shooting film on a job today is this: you won't have a dozen noses snitching up a monitor and "improving" your own vision which, ironically, was presumably why they picked you to do the shoot in the first place!

So quickly? Not in the top echelons. Many people continued with film for as long as it was possible, especially if they were big enough to do their own lab work. Watson talks about this very thing in a video where he is on about large digital printers; he didn't, at the time, think digital was good enough.

I did my own black/white lab work because I was odd: I felt it was part of who I thought myself to be. I did not do my own colour, because having done it in an industrial photo-unit for about six years, I understood the problems and cost of replenishing colour lines. It was nothing to a massive engineering company, but my capital, relatively speaking, was all rolled up in a small bandana.

Polaroid. I had a back for it for the Hasselblads. I hardly ever used it. As with many at the time, we got the work because of our visual quirks. It never worried me as a photographer, either; today, in a digital commercial context, I think that exposure confidence would be missing, that I'd start to be the chimper that I never am. Depressing, isn't it? Tools taking over the mind.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 21, 2018, 11:00:54 am
It did all vanish very quickly didn’t it.  The one lab I worked at went from 80 employees to 10 in two years. Not because they panicked but because they stopped getting work. The huge dip and dunk E6 processors are tough to keep in tolerance below certain throughputs. Costs go up as you try to keep it going and then long leases are them alive. It happened so quickly there wasn’t money to downsize. In 1995 the slide began, they went bankrupt in 1998.
If a film lab went out of business in 1988, it wasn't because of digital. I was still doing two lab runs a day in 1998. Back then, the only viable digital cameras for professional work were multishot backs with color wheels and that was for product photography only. The rank and file of pro photographers were nowhere near ready to transition to digital throughout the 90's. The Nikon D1 wasn't released until 1999 - that was the first ready-for-primetime pro camera. The end did come quickly, but I think it was 2001/2002 or so once the Nikon D1X, D100, Fuji S2 and Canon D30 and 1D all hit the market.

In the summer of 2002 I bought a D100 and never again set foot in a photo lab.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 21, 2018, 11:26:13 am
If a film lab went out of business in 1988, it wasn't because of digital. I was still doing two lab runs a day in 1998. Back then, the only viable digital cameras for professional work were multishot backs with color wheels and that was for product photography only. The rank and file of pro photographers were nowhere near ready to transition to digital even through the end of the 90's. The Nikon D1 wasn't released until 1999 - that was the first ready-for-primetime pro camera. The end did come quickly, but I think it was 2001/2002 or so once the Nikon D1X, D100, Fuji S2 and Canon D30 and 1D all hit the market.

In the summer of 2002 I bought a D100 and never again set foot in a photo lab.

In 1995 I started working with a Kodak DCS420 and by 1998 I had a DCS460 and a DCS465 back. I never shot another roll of film commercially after 1996. By 2000 I employed a team of 4 photographers and 6 retouchers. We digitized every single item sold by the three largest FMCG retailers in the space of 4 years and every single furniture retailer as well. I wasn’t the only one that got on that bandwagon. The first ready for prime time camera in my opinion was the DCS 560. Rear LCD, FireWire, reasonable battery, 6MP CCD. Released in 1998 I bought a demo in 1999. Still have it I think

Between 1995 and 1998 that lab went from two E6 shifts a day to less than 50 rolls a day.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 21, 2018, 11:32:12 am
And there it is.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Juanito on May 21, 2018, 11:35:43 am
In 1995 I started working with a Kodak DCS420 and by 1998 I had a DCS460 and a DCS465 back. I never shot another roll of film commercially after 1996. By 2000 I employed a team of 4 photographers and 6 retouchers. We digitized every single item sold by the three largest FMCG retailers in the space of 4 years and every single furniture retailer as well. I wasn’t the only one that got on that bandwagon. The first ready for prime time camera in my opinion was the DCS 560. Rear LCD, FireWire, reasonable battery, 6MP CCD. Released in 1998 I bought a demo in 1999. Still have it I think

Between 1995 and 1998 that lab went from two E6 shifts a day to less than 50 rolls a day.
Ah... that must have been a lab with a specialty client base of studio shooters. Portrait and lifestyle shooters were still tied to film at that point.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: landscapephoto on May 21, 2018, 12:10:51 pm
The problem with Polaroid was that the company fell into the hands of a fraudulent individual, now in prison, who ran the company into the ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petters

According to that article you cited, Tom Petters acquired the Polaroid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaroid_Corporation#Decline) brand in 2005, that is 5 years after Polaroid went bankrupt (in 2001).
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 12:17:12 pm
Thing is, nothing this pair does is new. Think Corrine Day, the two Sorrenti brothers. Teller? Even the younger Richardson?

To be brutally honest, I think fashion photography has forced itself into an ever-tightening noose of self-reference. Nothing is new; everything is derivative. I'm just waiting for the new Lillian Bassman to appear (unless I just missed her!).

That's a reason for my admiration for Peter Lindbergh: he has always been the same guy, working the same old aesthetic with the same aplomb and success. I think the same could probably be said of Albert Watson. They are so good at what they do that there is just no need to change or loose it; I can't say I see any difference between Hans Feurer today and the Hans Feurer of the 70s. The thing is, when you are just so goddam good, you are indestructible.

If there is any weakness, it's in the clients who are so worried about their image that they can no longer see beyond it, to the extent that I believe they fail to see the mess some of their solutions really turn out to be. But who's gonna tell them? Too much money involved, too much insecurity in the entire business. In an episode of Canada's Fashion television series with Jeanne Beker, Helmut Newton declared that fashion had changed for the worse, simply because everything had become such a big deal, so much money was involved in it, and he regretted the passing of the days when photographers were let out onto the streets of Paris like mad dogs...

Even back then, I understood exactly what he was saying.

Harley Weir is new. She's a genuine and real talent the likes of which a generation will only see one or two of. She changed the face of fashion. Not entirely single handedly, (Hawksworth was the other main leverage) but she is the one most emulate now. They can emulate her but they don't have what she has. They copy the colour palette, the lighting, the camera and film stock but her aesthetic isn't really what is unique about her work.

Petra is new. She rejected the media that middle aged white men where force feeding teenage girls with Dolly Girl and Vogue Teen and created her own thing. It was real and blunt and girls her age loved it. She represents an era that recognised and rejected what was on offer and had the tools in place to make their own thing and give that generation what they wanted.

But the way fashion works is everyone has to move with what the industry decides to follow. That's what fashion is. Anything outside of that small defined box becomes irrelevant until the next thing that pops up a decade later.

But to be honest, I much prefer the aesthetic of film and I love the craft, heritage and history it stands for. Photography got hijacked by mediocrity and I think digital allowed that to happen. Going back to film is like reclaiming something special that I didn't want to give up in the first place.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 12:26:52 pm
According to that article you cited, Tom Petters acquired the Polaroid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaroid_Corporation#Decline) brand in 2005, that is 5 years after Polaroid went bankrupt (in 2001).

Polaroid was still producing and selling all the films years after Petters got a hold of it.

If Polaroid fell into the hands of someone like the guy who bought Leica, or all the people trying to save it at the time like the Impossible Project, then it would be a different story.

He ran that company into the ground and all the machinery was destroyed.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: pschefz on May 21, 2018, 12:31:34 pm
the pentax 67 was THE camera to have in the 90s, lindberg, bruce weber,....wasnt for me, the mirror slap is crazy! but a lot of the most iconic images from the "supermodel era" were shot on that camera......which is probably why it is popular now....google search, which camera used, aha!
i did my first digital shoot, manipulation and print in 93 while still at brooks, in the first digital class offered, run by a friend of mine since there were no instructors....its funny to think back to that now but i was totally hooked then....did not start shooting digital frequently until 98? bbut by then the tide had started to turn....labs were already turning into post production houses....
whenever i read about a fresh photographer to watch or to come out, they almost all (at least say) they shoot film....i think its great, i am pretty sure they all can and do shoot digital as well....
but even for celebrity, even if you only get 2 minutes, having that old, analog, big, slow, film camera sitting there right now will probably get you another few minutes and a little extra interaction, maybe little extra because people actually get excited about having actual film shot.....even if the shots that run are from the digital camera anyway.....
and once everybody shows up with a 4x5 and starts to fiddle with holders and the whole things starts to take forever...again...it will be all digital, but its great to have the option.....
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on May 21, 2018, 12:32:55 pm
In 1995 I started working with a Kodak DCS420 and by 1998 I had a DCS460 and a DCS465 back. I never shot another roll of film commercially after 1996. By 2000 I employed a team of 4 photographers and 6 retouchers. We digitized every single item sold by the three largest FMCG retailers in the space of 4 years and every single furniture retailer as well. I wasn’t the only one that got on that bandwagon. The first ready for prime time camera in my opinion was the DCS 560. Rear LCD, FireWire, reasonable battery, 6MP CCD. Released in 1998 I bought a demo in 1999. Still have it I think

Between 1995 and 1998 that lab went from two E6 shifts a day to less than 50 rolls a day.

That's very similar to my own path. I agree the 560 was a game changer. But for me, the whole time I didn't really like digital, but it was a way for people at the time to make a lot of money. It's always been like the industrialisation of photography. I think it made the industry loose sight of a lot of good things about photography, and that isn't really about making money. I think we've lost a lot.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 02:21:32 pm
That's very similar to my own path. I agree the 560 was a game changer. But for me, the whole time I didn't really like digital, but it was a way for people at the time to make a lot of money. It's always been like the industrialisation of photography. I think it made the industry loose sight of a lot of good things about photography, and that isn't really about making money. I think we've lost a lot.


Oh, I agree with what you say about photography having lost a lot; it might sound odd reading this today, but I can remember photographers writing in the BJP, even in the 80s, that it felt as if the best days were already behind the profession, that a new mindset had overtaken it, and that a lesser kind of standard was being sought by clients mainly because they were, in turn, increasingly being run by accountants rather than visionaries.

I suppose this can be seen if one considers the wonderful imagery that Biba would employ, which sold an image very well, but which, in the end, wasn't able to sustain the business for other, managerial reasons which might have been beyond the powers of the directors to control - I don't pretend to have any knowledge of that side of it at all.

As mentioned before, the demise of a truly profitable photo stock market - from the snapper's point of view - simply underlines how the value of photography was seen to be ever diminished within the market. It became possible to pay photographers less and get away with it, a matter, too, of over-supply and a shift in the demographic later making up the bulk of suppliers.

All I can say is that I feel fortunate to have had my fifteen minutes when I had 'em.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 21, 2018, 02:25:07 pm
That's very similar to my own path. I agree the 560 was a game changer. But for me, the whole time I didn't really like digital, but it was a way for people at the time to make a lot of money. It's always been like the industrialisation of photography. I think it made the industry loose sight of a lot of good things about photography, and that isn't really about making money. I think we've lost a lot.

It was an interesting time. I had arrived back in South Africa after four years away. Spent the last six months of that time riding a bicycle from Jerusalem to South Africa. I had $30 in my pocket and didn’t own a pair of long pants. Desperate times. I saw the gap and got a contract to shoot products. My years in labs meant I had good skills in running production. Never wanted to be a commercial photographer. Still don’t. I stay well clear of creative commercial work. I avoid agencies like the plague. I shoot products. My creative skills are kept for my personal work.

I hear you regarding film. We did lose something. I think the industry lost confidence in itself. I won’t go back into a darkroom but I still print. I love printing. Now its digital but in the end I have a print. I’m just tired of the tech. The direction it is taking. The constant hysteria. Now I see Canon has put its new 120mp sensor up for sale. All I want to see is a good idea well executed. I don’t care how many dam pixels anymore.

To return to the backs for sale thing. I owned 5 digital backs and while amazed by them never liked them. I never liked MF film either despite owning two TLRs, Pentax 6X7, Hassy, RB67, Bronica and more. I liked 35mm and 4X5. They were my favorites. Funny thing is with film I would hang onto kit for ages. We didn’t really chase tech like we do now. I’m sick of it to be honest. I doubt I will ever buy another back. I just don’t see the need for my work. Personal or commercial. Two weeks back I was offered a good upgraded path for my Sony A7rII and I decided stuff it. I couldn’t be bothered. My current gear is just fine. Does what’s I need and I couldn’t be bothered to change. Did pick up mint Minolta 28mm f2.8 for just $35. Kind of excited about that.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: eronald on June 05, 2018, 07:58:26 pm
Hassy X1D prices are dropping strongly  in Europe, pre Photokina. The Hassy is now cheaper than a Nikon D5, and we can expect used copies to hit the market around the price of an A9 soon.

https://photorumors.com/2018/06/04/huge-price-drop-for-the-hasselblad-x1d-medium-format-mirrorless-camera-in-europe/

Phase remains the pricing exception in the post-Sony medium format world, and I expect quite a few aging Phase landscape photographers will get the message that they can ebay their heavy and rarely used Phase kit and get a Hassy medium format camera that fits in their daypack and still takes good pictures.  Of course Fuji is also expected to release a more compact MF camera soon. Last, not least, I think quite a few sturdy tripods will join their medium format friends on the bay, while Gitzo sell a bunch of lightweight carbon Travelers.

Edmund

PS. I saw a titanium and a black X1D in a shop window the other day, and they do look gorgeous. If anything screams "millionaire impulse purchase" without being painted red with a horse on the front, this is it.
Title: Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
Post by: Bo_Dez on June 06, 2018, 06:23:49 am
Well done Hasselblad and Fuji, the game has changed. Elitism and exclusivity in larger formats has finally ended. Thank heavens. Now we can get back to taking photos instead of fussing over ridiculously expensive gear. No body wants to spend that much on cameras anymore because they don't need to. Well, inevitably some will, but I for one am done with it.

I suspect DJI's know how of becoming a mainstream supplier on every high street has and will do wonders. The image quality from these cameras is better than smaller formats in most measurable ways so dropping the price means it will sell like crazy. When the 100MP models are in, Phase One will be forced to change or fold. Maybe it's already too late.

Ironically, more and more, I'm moving back to film.