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Author Topic: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held  (Read 6384 times)

Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 10:23:34 pm »

What I mean is that the H6D-100c does a poor job at focusing away from the center area.

Even focus and recompose with true focus is only designed for vertical portraits and a sweeping movement around a horizontal axis. So anything off axis doesn't maintina focus accuracy per my experience.

This isn't a problem with your body, it is a limitation of the design.

Accurate manual focusing is also very difficult with the H lenses compared to Zeiss Otus on 35mm for instance.

My personal conclusion is that the only way to focus consistently and accurately a H6D-100c on the eye of a model (the same would apply to a P1 IQ3-100 btw) is with live view.

I hope you were aware of these limitations when you decided to invest this amount of cash on your MF camera system. I personnaly had close to zero expectations from an AF standpoint.

Cheers,
Bernard

p.s.: I find your sample pretty soft.
Bernard
I'm glad we are having this discussion. Below are three shots taken on a tripod without flash. All three were shot wide open using my HC150n
The first was shot using True Focus and without recomposing


The second was shot also using TF and then recomposing to the phone


The last one was shot using live view



What do you think
Neil
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Joe Towner

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 11:19:44 pm »

What does the SN tell us about the 150n?  What's the firmware version & shot count?  It seems like it's just a touch out when it comes to phase and contrast based AF.

My biggest complaint about the H6 is a lack of microadjustment in AF.

I would try a few consecutive shots from a tripod, resetting the focus manually between shots.
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Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 11:37:34 pm »

What does the SN tell us about the 150n?  What's the firmware version & shot count?  It seems like it's just a touch out when it comes to phase and contrast based AF.

My biggest complaint about the H6 is a lack of microadjustment in AF.

I would try a few consecutive shots from a tripod, resetting the focus manually between shots.
See below
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Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 12:04:42 am »

See below
ON THE LENS VERSIONS
My HC150n has version 17.xx but according to Hasselblad this version cannot be upgraded to the latest version which is 19.xxx
On my other two lenses the 100mm f2.2 (orange dot) and my 50mm II f3.4 they both had version 18.xx and have now been updated to the latest 19.xx firmware
Reading the Hasselblad website this just makes them compatible with the X1D via an adapter
My model canceled so I will have to wait until Monday to try this new firmware out

Neil
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 01:35:15 am »

Hi Neil,

What I see that LV is pretty OK. RC focuses either in front or behind the subject and TF overcompensates. You see that the one of the images is all magenta and the other green. That is because the lens used has significant longitudional chromatic aberration, of some kind. With LoCA out of focus areas tend to be magenta or green, depending on the defocus. Normally, it goes away when stopping down.

Just as a side remark, a very large part of design going into the Otus lenses went into eliminating that fringing.

Are you sure that the camera focuses OK on a straight shot? Here are some suggested first checks: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/63430-first-checks-new-system.html

Best regards
Erik



Bernard
I'm glad we are having this discussion. Below are three shots taken on a tripod without flash. All three were shot wide open using my HC150n
The first was shot using True Focus and without recomposing

...

What do you think
Neil
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:57:38 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 01:57:03 am »

Erik
I have the Otus lenses and also a D810. But I want to shoot my H6D and the only way I am going to learn how to do this is but asking questions here and going out and trying all these different methods.
My plan is to go out and shoot in some woods with a naked model, I am guessing the light is going to okay but not great. So initially I will try this
1/. Manual settings
2/. Apature 5.6 using my 100mm f2.2
3/. Shutter 1/350
4/. ISO to balance up to 1600
5/. Camera on a tripod
6/. Fill flash matching the f5.6

I must admit I was shocked when I saw the above examples. While out shooting with the model I will also try the LV function, the only issue with that is being able to see the LCD in sunlight

Neil
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chrismuc

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 02:06:34 am »

What I see from these and other examples is, that 100 MP and soon 150 MP 54x40mm backs urgently need cameras and lenses that are able to record this resolution at handheld usage. Center point auto-focus and lenses with such amount of axial coma and lack of out-of center sharpness at open aperture don't justify the investment.

As soon as I got used to enjoy AF points all over the sensor with mirrorless cameras like Fuji X-T1/X-T2, Sony A7RII and Fuji GFX for portrait or any other handhold photography, I found it already annoying using cameras like the Canon 1DX with its AF points located in a rather central area only.

One central AF point (w/ or w/o (pseudo-)'true-focus') in cameras like PhaseOne XF, Hasselblad H or Leica S is just 'state of the past'.

Also lens IQ proceeded a lot within recent years: Sigma Art, Zeiss Otus and certain Milvus (18, 35, 135), certain Loxia (21, 25, 135), Fuji GF and others provide excellent sharpness across the frame at open aperture w/ barely any axial coma. Most Hasselblad H and several PhaseOne Schneider lenses are not up to this level.

With the upcoming 100 MP 44x33mm and 150 MP 54x40mm sensors, PhaseOne, Hasselblad and Leica are quite under pressure to develop suitable cameras and lenses (not Leica) to allow their users to be able to use this pixel count apart from stopped down tripod shots.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 02:07:31 am »

Hi Neil,

Of course you want use the H6D. I would do some more testing at home, see if the camera focuses right without focus/recompose. I also think there is a focus adjustment feature on the Hasselblad.

The test target I refer to in my posting on GetDPI  is pretty good for that: https://www.bvdwolf.nl/foto/test_targets/test_targets.html , you would use the camera resolution test target.

You are most welcome to ask any questions. All nice folks here are willing to help!

Regarding fill flash, I would keep 1-2EV below the surround, but I am neither a flash shooter or a portrait shooter, so my suggestion doesn't carry much weight.

Best regards
Erik


Erik
I have the Otus lenses and also a D810. But I want to shoot my H6D and the only way I am going to learn how to do this is but asking questions here and going out and trying all these different methods.
My plan is to go out and shoot in some woods with a naked model, I am guessing the light is going to okay but not great. So initially I will try this
1/. Manual settings
2/. Apature 5.6 using my 100mm f2.2
3/. Shutter 1/350
4/. ISO to balance up to 1600
5/. Camera on a tripod
6/. Fill flash matching the f5.6

I must admit I was shocked when I saw the above examples. While out shooting with the model I will also try the LV function, the only issue with that is being able to see the LCD in sunlight

Neil
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 03:17:44 am »

Another test at F8
Its with LV


2nd with TF

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jvpictures

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 03:41:36 am »

...
Even focus and recompose with true focus is only designed for vertical portraits and a sweeping movement around a horizontal axis. So anything off axis doesn't maintina focus accuracy per my experience.
....

I don't think that this statement is correct. There is no such limitation stated in the user manual. In fact, I remember even an official H instructional video, in which TF was demonstrated on a wide-angle landscape shot; the camera with TF was in landscape mode and swung around the vertical axis. I have used TF in this way in horizontal mode for close-up portrait shots with shallow DOF and did not experience any non-functioning of TF and thus unsharp pictures. Please check!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2018, 04:41:43 am »

I don't think that this statement is correct. There is no such limitation stated in the user manual. In fact, I remember even an official H instructional video, in which TF was demonstrated on a wide-angle landscape shot; the camera with TF was in landscape mode and swung around the vertical axis. I have used TF in this way in horizontal mode for close-up portrait shots with shallow DOF and did not experience any non-functioning of TF and thus unsharp pictures. Please check!

This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.

Cheers,
Bernard

jvpictures

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2018, 08:02:28 am »

This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.

Cheers,
Bernard

That would be good, definitely important to know for proper usage of tools....
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jvpictures

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2018, 08:06:12 am »

This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.

Cheers,
Bernard

if you don't get a clear answer I will test it myself or will ask H in HQ! Need to know...
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jvpictures

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2018, 10:59:02 am »

This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.

Cheers,
Bernard

In this report it is pretty clear that TF will work for horizontal and vertical swings:

http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/using-true-focus.pdf

There is even an example described with TF and landscape mode moving left (sideways).

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE - In this implementation of True Focus, the sensors in the H4D are only programmed to detect movement of the camera about its own axis. ie. Imagine the camera fixed to a tripod but free to rotate left to right, up or down or a combination of the two. Similar to Tilt and Swing movements on a technical camera.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2018, 03:58:36 pm »

Hi,

You need to consider the point of rotation. It is quite probable that the point of rotation is not the position of the inlet pupil.

Best regards
Erik

In this report it is pretty clear that TF will work for horizontal and vertical swings:

http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/using-true-focus.pdf

There is even an example described with TF and landscape mode moving left (sideways).

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE - In this implementation of True Focus, the sensors in the H4D are only programmed to detect movement of the camera about its own axis. ie. Imagine the camera fixed to a tripod but free to rotate left to right, up or down or a combination of the two. Similar to Tilt and Swing movements on a technical camera.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Neil Williams

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2018, 12:49:44 am »

Erik
I tried your focusing method using live view and I like it :) :) :) It was hot and humid and was a struggle with my glasses steaming up especially with the model Raneem looking super hot as well..........but anyway here is one of many shots that I took this morning.

H6D100c ISO100 f4.8 1/500 with my 150n lens

Neil
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 09:51:26 am »

The pictures are nice Neil.

In your initial samples I think it's a combination of focus issue and also a bit of movement.

The 150 is a long lens and it really needs a minimum of 1/500th for it with 100MP.

I've had very good result with Truefocus in horizontal or portrait orientation.

I don't think it will be long before we see an EVF viewfinder for the H and I think they've gone as far as they can with a single focus point too.
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Garry Sarre

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 07:45:12 pm »

Hi Neil. I have been through this whole exercise and found a solution which works. Auto focus for portrait and especially true focus, is too slow for me with hand held portrait. The moment has gone. A tripod helps, but as you said, you like to move around, and that is important. Forget live view on a tripod shooting portrait, unless the subject is asleep or dead.

The solution? Do what the best fashion and portrait photographers have done for decades, manual focus. It takes a little practice, but after a while, you'll find your focusing hand constantly fine tuning the focus without even thinking about it. And best of all, when the background is perfectly in place in relation to the subject and the moment is there, bang, you've got the shot.

You may not define the veins in the eyeballs all the time, but portrait is about the moment, not pin sharpness.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 08:41:49 pm »

Hi Garry,

True enough, but I have many more keepers using my Otus on the Nikon compared to manual focusing H lenses. I find their focus ring very coarse.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Struggled a bit shooting these H6D100c shots of Shirlene hand held
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2018, 03:02:13 pm »

Hi,

Magnified live view is almost magic, but it may be affected by focus shift when stopping down.

Making small pixels justice may be a real enterprise!

Best regards
Erik

Hi Neil. I have been through this whole exercise and found a solution which works. Auto focus for portrait and especially true focus, is too slow for me with hand held portrait. The moment has gone. A tripod helps, but as you said, you like to move around, and that is important. Forget live view on a tripod shooting portrait, unless the subject is asleep or dead.

The solution? Do what the best fashion and portrait photographers have done for decades, manual focus. It takes a little practice, but after a while, you'll find your focusing hand constantly fine tuning the focus without even thinking about it. And best of all, when the background is perfectly in place in relation to the subject and the moment is there, bang, you've got the shot.

You may not define the veins in the eyeballs all the time, but portrait is about the moment, not pin sharpness.
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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