Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Neil Williams on February 14, 2018, 05:49:30 pm
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Below are some pictures of a friend of mine Shirlene. We shot them at the Thien Hoi Temple in Kuala Lumpur. I was using my H6D100c with one Profoto B1 head and an Octibox. Camera settings were Aperture priority ISO64 and most were shot at 1/250 ish. The files looked okay on the LCD but at home on the computer they were mainly soft from either to slow a shutter speed, camera shake or a combination of both. On another forum I got some great advice on changing the delay of the shutter/mirror up to 100ms rather than 50ms (I haven't tried it yet) but plan to after CNY. The other advise was to bump the ISO to 200 to get the shutter speed up (I wish there was an auto ISO setting on this camera) and use a mono pod or tripod.......I was really hoping that I could get away without using a support
Anyway below are a few pictures of Shirlene that were all shot hand held and very little PP done in Phocus
Neil
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/2avveawodxpza4l/Neil%27s-Photography-Shirlene-Temple-Shoot_0120.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1k23su60z9o53t3/Neil%27s-Photography-Shirlene-Temple-Shoot_0080.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/e46d80wcuoiv7x0/Neil%27s-Photography-Shirlene-Temple-Shoot_0094.jpg?raw=1)
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Why were you shooting Av? Manual with flash is what I always use. Why not use a higher shutter speed? That is the beauty of medium format and leaf shutters.
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Why were you shooting Av? Manual with flash is what I always use. Why not use a higher shutter speed? That is the beauty of medium format and leaf shutters.
Hi Bob
Please can you elaborate on what you do? I'm not a complete knob when it comes to taking pictures, but sometimes just need a bit of guidance
Cheers mate
Neil
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Indeed, you probably have less than 10mp worth of resolution here, most probably as a result of missed focus... ;)
Since nothing seems to be moving, I would use a tripod and live view for these kind of images, this is what I do with the blad in the studio if the point of focus is away from the center.
Even a monopod can help a lot.
But the reality is that a D850 with a 105mm f1.4 is a better tool for such images IMHO.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Indeed, you probably have less than 10mp worth of resolution here, most probably as a result of missed focus... ;)
Since nothing seems to be moving, I would use a tripod and live view for these kind of images, this is what I do with the blad in the studio if the point of focus is away from the center.
Even a monopod can help a lot.
But the reality is that a D850 with a 105mm f1.4 is a better tool for such images IMHO.
Cheers,
Bernard
I do not think that tripod makes sense for this kind of shots, as the photographer is supposed to be moving a lot and so does the model. IMO, for this kind of shots (model, special lighting), H6D is a better tool than D850.
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Hey Neil,
What focal lengths were you working with? I tend to do better in the 1/500th or faster - the high MP will tell when you don't nail it. Are you using TrueFocus or standard AF? Does your technique have you more prone supporting the camera, or are your elbows getting payback for some unknown activity?
-Joe
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Hi,
I think the soul of these pictures is natural light. You can of course set artifical light, but it may not mix well with existing light.
Shooting tripod is a no brainer. You can raise the ISO, the sensor in the H6DC100 allows for high ISOs.
It is hard to know if the images are out of focus or if it is camera. If you can observe issues with an image at "web size" it means that there are serious problems.
Bernard is right. A camera with movable AF-points and image stabilization is advantageous in handheld shooting situations.
Best regards
Erik
Hi Bob
Please can you elaborate on what you do? I'm not a complete knob when it comes to taking pictures, but sometimes just need a bit of guidance
Cheers mate
Neil
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Hey Neil,
What focal lengths were you working with? I tend to do better in the 1/500th or faster - the high MP will tell when you don't nail it. Are you using TrueFocus or standard AF? Does your technique have you more prone supporting the camera, or are your elbows getting payback for some unknown activity?
-Joe
Joe
I am using mainly HC100 f2.2 and HC150n, yes I am using true focus but it sometimes just takes a few extra second to give me the locked on sound........ive even got the models listing for the beep :) :)
I feel I can hold the camera no problem so next time out I will either use more light or just shoot a couple of hours later when there is more light about.
Neil
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It is hard to know if the images are out of focus or if it is camera. If you can observe issues with an image at "web size" it means that there are serious problems.
Erik
Here are three images shot with my HC150n at 3.2 5.6 a f8
I dont think I have a camera issue I think its an execution method that is the problem and I will work on that to get it fixed.
Neil
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ipra5fackwlh3l7/B0001416.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9iuh4jmm1vmr85e/B0001417.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqrrfnpbt75saxl/B0001418.jpg?raw=1)
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H6D is a better tool than D850.
I own both. ;)
And although I love the image quality of the H6D-100c and feel it is the best MF digital camera on the market... I still feel that the D850 is a superior tool in some shooting situations, namely when things move (you and/or your subject).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Having shot with Nikons, Fujis, Hassy H, Pentax 645z, and X1D for portrait work, I tend to agree with Erik K that any camera with movable AF points advantageous with this kind of work. Of course YMMV, but movable AF points with the X1D has increased my hit rate considerably over the H series when doing handheld portraits...not quite to Nikon level accuracy but waaaaay better than it ever was with the H and true focus.
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I own both. ;)
And although I love the image quality of the H6D-100c and feel it is the best MF digital camera on the market... I still feel that the D850 is a superior tool in some shooting situations, namely when things move (you and/or your subject).
Cheers,
Bernard
I own both as well, as well as X1D, Sony a7rII, Leica SL, m43 etc. I find D850 to be the most flexible of all my cameras. However, because of the great OVF and the file quality, I try to use H6D-100c as much as I can. Hasselblad's True Focus was designed exactly for the kind of situation that OP describes: handheld, plenty of light.
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Hi Bob
Please can you elaborate on what you do? I'm not a complete knob when it comes to taking pictures, but sometimes just need a bit of guidance
Cheers mate
Neil
I was trying to find out what you were trying to do. I still don't know, sorry.
Were you trying to balance flash light on the subject with ambient light on the background? It doesn't seem so as the light on the subject and background seems to be the same judging by the light on her shoulder and the balloons both coming from camera right.
Were you trying to just give a catchlight in the eyes? Again it does not seem so.
Av gives you little or no control over the shutter speed.
I use M and just adjust the exposure for the background to give what I want there and then adjust the flash power for the subject.
You mention that the model is waiting for the TF beep. Why is that a concern for the model? Focus is for the photographer to fix. The Tf indicator is shown in the viewfinder. The model should hold until the flash fires. Maybe she moved between?
The focus is difficult to see on a small jpeg but it seems to be on the fan and not the eyes. True Focus only works for rotation movement. If the camera is moved back or forwards it doesn't work.
Good luck.
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I was trying to find out what you were trying to do. I still don't know, sorry.
Were you trying to balance flash light on the subject with ambient light on the background? It doesn't seem so as the light on the subject and background seems to be the same judging by the light on her shoulder and the balloons both coming from camera right.
Were you trying to just give a catchlight in the eyes? Again it does not seem so.
Av gives you little or no control over the shutter speed.
I use M and just adjust the exposure for the background to give what I want there and then adjust the flash power for the subject.
You mention that the model is waiting for the TF beep. Why is that a concern for the model? Focus is for the photographer to fix. The Tf indicator is shown in the viewfinder. The model should hold until the flash fires. Maybe she moved between?
The focus is difficult to see on a small jpeg but it seems to be on the fan and not the eyes. True Focus only works for rotation movement. If the camera is moved back or forwards it doesn't work.
Good luck.
Hello Bob, thanks for the feedback
Initially I tried using manual and use the pop up flash for fill light, but I just couldn't for the life of me manage to balance the flash and ambient light. I then went and got the profoto B1 head and decided on 1/125 at f5.6 but that just seemed to have the background to dark and the model blasted with light. By that time we moved to another location in the temple that was now getting more sunlight, so I gave up on the flash and tried shooting wide open at ISO100 and getting anything from 1/125 to 1/500. The light improved considerably but I forgot to put the ISO back down to 64.
So all in all I arrived at the temple with a model but without a plan of how to shoot her........joke really
The idea behind getting the model to listen for the true focus beep was that it was taking up to 5 seconds to get the TF and as models like to pose then pose again and again, I told her that when she hears the beep to then hold her pose.......I thought that was working okay.
I will be trying again on Monday with another model and this time it will be in manual at f4+ with 1/500 minimum shutter and like you said light the model up with flash
Full size JPGS can be seen HERE (http://neilsphotography.co.uk/hasselblad-h6d-prints/)
Once again thanks for the feedback and tips on how to try and get this right
Neil
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Hello Neil,
I think that you can use 800-1600 ISO on that camera. You probably need something like 1/(3X focal length) for really sharp images.
Best regards
Erik
Hello Bob, thanks for the feedback
Initially I tried using manual and use the pop up flash for fill light, but I just couldn't for the life of me manage to balance the flash and ambient light. I then went and got the profoto B1 head and decided on 1/125 at f5.6 but that just seemed to have the background to dark and the model blasted with light. By that time we moved to another location in the temple that was now getting more sunlight, so I gave up on the flash and tried shooting wide open at ISO100 and getting anything from 1/125 to 1/500. The light improved considerably but I forgot to put the ISO back down to 64.
So all in all I arrived at the temple with a model but without a plan of how to shoot her........joke really
The idea behind getting the model to listen for the true focus beep was that it was taking up to 5 seconds to get the TF and as models like to pose then pose again and again, I told her that when she hears the beep to then hold her pose.......I thought that was working okay.
I will be trying again on Monday with another model and this time it will be in manual at f4+ with 1/500 minimum shutter and like you said light the model up with flash
Full size JPGS can be seen HERE (http://neilsphotography.co.uk/hasselblad-h6d-prints/)
Once again thanks for the feedback and tips on how to try and get this right
Neil
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Hello Neil,
I think that you can use 800-1600 ISO on that camera. You probably need something like 1/(3X focal length) for really sharp images.
Best regards
Erik
I’m trying to find a model for today so that I can go out and practice
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV97sZJLVCA
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1324625-REG/sekonic_401_858_l_858d_u_speedmaster_light_meter.html
But IMHO your sharpness problem is not the result of improper shutter speed, it is an AF issue.
Cheers,
Bernard
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV97sZJLVCA
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1324625-REG/sekonic_401_858_l_858d_u_speedmaster_light_meter.html
But IMHO your sharpness problem is not the result of improper shutter speed, it is an AF issue.
Cheers,
Bernard
AF Issue with what.........I have already produced sharp images with my camera and lenses so I'm confused at what your saying now
Here is a picture of my granddaughters eye at 200% out of camera
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/htvmnddl4la9m31/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2009.46.15.png?raw=1)
Neil
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV97sZJLVCA
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1324625-REG/sekonic_401_858_l_858d_u_speedmaster_light_meter.html
But IMHO your sharpness problem is not the result of improper shutter speed, it is an AF issue.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard I have the sekonic DR758 or something like that. Unfortunately its in Phuket and I'm in KL. I do have and will use my old Sekonic L308s which is more than capable of reading flash output for my next shoot
Thanks again for the help and feedback
Neil
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AF Issue with what.........I have already produced sharp images with my camera and lenses so I'm confused at what your saying now
Here is a picture of my granddaughters eye at 200% out of camera
What I mean is that the H6D-100c does a poor job at focusing away from the center area.
Even focus and recompose with true focus is only designed for vertical portraits and a sweeping movement around a horizontal axis. So anything off axis doesn't maintina focus accuracy per my experience.
This isn't a problem with your body, it is a limitation of the design.
Accurate manual focusing is also very difficult with the H lenses compared to Zeiss Otus on 35mm for instance.
My personal conclusion is that the only way to focus consistently and accurately a H6D-100c on the eye of a model (the same would apply to a P1 IQ3-100 btw) is with live view.
I hope you were aware of these limitations when you decided to invest this amount of cash on your MF camera system. I personnaly had close to zero expectations from an AF standpoint.
Cheers,
Bernard
p.s.: I find your sample pretty soft.
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What I mean is that the H6D-100c does a poor job at focusing away from the center area.
Even focus and recompose with true focus is only designed for vertical portraits and a sweeping movement around a horizontal axis. So anything off axis doesn't maintina focus accuracy per my experience.
This isn't a problem with your body, it is a limitation of the design.
Accurate manual focusing is also very difficult with the H lenses compared to Zeiss Otus on 35mm for instance.
My personal conclusion is that the only way to focus consistently and accurately a H6D-100c on the eye of a model (the same would apply to a P1 IQ3-100 btw) is with live view.
I hope you were aware of these limitations when you decided to invest this amount of cash on your MF camera system. I personnaly had close to zero expectations from an AF standpoint.
Cheers,
Bernard
p.s.: I find your sample pretty soft.
Bernard
I'm glad we are having this discussion. Below are three shots taken on a tripod without flash. All three were shot wide open using my HC150n
The first was shot using True Focus and without recomposing
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/axd8tpx0jddrfnw/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.09.51.png?raw=1)
The second was shot also using TF and then recomposing to the phone
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/fs4ka1z2aegz6gc/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.12.05.png?raw=1)
The last one was shot using live view
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/difcdhkgofzq31r/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2011.17.11.png?raw=1)
What do you think
Neil
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What does the SN tell us about the 150n? What's the firmware version & shot count? It seems like it's just a touch out when it comes to phase and contrast based AF.
My biggest complaint about the H6 is a lack of microadjustment in AF.
I would try a few consecutive shots from a tripod, resetting the focus manually between shots.
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What does the SN tell us about the 150n? What's the firmware version & shot count? It seems like it's just a touch out when it comes to phase and contrast based AF.
My biggest complaint about the H6 is a lack of microadjustment in AF.
I would try a few consecutive shots from a tripod, resetting the focus manually between shots.
See below
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See below
ON THE LENS VERSIONS
My HC150n has version 17.xx but according to Hasselblad this version cannot be upgraded to the latest version which is 19.xxx
On my other two lenses the 100mm f2.2 (orange dot) and my 50mm II f3.4 they both had version 18.xx and have now been updated to the latest 19.xx firmware
Reading the Hasselblad website this just makes them compatible with the X1D via an adapter
My model canceled so I will have to wait until Monday to try this new firmware out
Neil
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Hi Neil,
What I see that LV is pretty OK. RC focuses either in front or behind the subject and TF overcompensates. You see that the one of the images is all magenta and the other green. That is because the lens used has significant longitudional chromatic aberration, of some kind. With LoCA out of focus areas tend to be magenta or green, depending on the defocus. Normally, it goes away when stopping down.
Just as a side remark, a very large part of design going into the Otus lenses went into eliminating that fringing.
Are you sure that the camera focuses OK on a straight shot? Here are some suggested first checks: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/63430-first-checks-new-system.html
Best regards
Erik
Bernard
I'm glad we are having this discussion. Below are three shots taken on a tripod without flash. All three were shot wide open using my HC150n
The first was shot using True Focus and without recomposing
...
What do you think
Neil
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Erik
I have the Otus lenses and also a D810. But I want to shoot my H6D and the only way I am going to learn how to do this is but asking questions here and going out and trying all these different methods.
My plan is to go out and shoot in some woods with a naked model, I am guessing the light is going to okay but not great. So initially I will try this
1/. Manual settings
2/. Apature 5.6 using my 100mm f2.2
3/. Shutter 1/350
4/. ISO to balance up to 1600
5/. Camera on a tripod
6/. Fill flash matching the f5.6
I must admit I was shocked when I saw the above examples. While out shooting with the model I will also try the LV function, the only issue with that is being able to see the LCD in sunlight
Neil
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What I see from these and other examples is, that 100 MP and soon 150 MP 54x40mm backs urgently need cameras and lenses that are able to record this resolution at handheld usage. Center point auto-focus and lenses with such amount of axial coma and lack of out-of center sharpness at open aperture don't justify the investment.
As soon as I got used to enjoy AF points all over the sensor with mirrorless cameras like Fuji X-T1/X-T2, Sony A7RII and Fuji GFX for portrait or any other handhold photography, I found it already annoying using cameras like the Canon 1DX with its AF points located in a rather central area only.
One central AF point (w/ or w/o (pseudo-)'true-focus') in cameras like PhaseOne XF, Hasselblad H or Leica S is just 'state of the past'.
Also lens IQ proceeded a lot within recent years: Sigma Art, Zeiss Otus and certain Milvus (18, 35, 135), certain Loxia (21, 25, 135), Fuji GF and others provide excellent sharpness across the frame at open aperture w/ barely any axial coma. Most Hasselblad H and several PhaseOne Schneider lenses are not up to this level.
With the upcoming 100 MP 44x33mm and 150 MP 54x40mm sensors, PhaseOne, Hasselblad and Leica are quite under pressure to develop suitable cameras and lenses (not Leica) to allow their users to be able to use this pixel count apart from stopped down tripod shots.
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Hi Neil,
Of course you want use the H6D. I would do some more testing at home, see if the camera focuses right without focus/recompose. I also think there is a focus adjustment feature on the Hasselblad.
The test target I refer to in my posting on GetDPI is pretty good for that: https://www.bvdwolf.nl/foto/test_targets/test_targets.html , you would use the camera resolution test target.
You are most welcome to ask any questions. All nice folks here are willing to help!
Regarding fill flash, I would keep 1-2EV below the surround, but I am neither a flash shooter or a portrait shooter, so my suggestion doesn't carry much weight.
Best regards
Erik
Erik
I have the Otus lenses and also a D810. But I want to shoot my H6D and the only way I am going to learn how to do this is but asking questions here and going out and trying all these different methods.
My plan is to go out and shoot in some woods with a naked model, I am guessing the light is going to okay but not great. So initially I will try this
1/. Manual settings
2/. Apature 5.6 using my 100mm f2.2
3/. Shutter 1/350
4/. ISO to balance up to 1600
5/. Camera on a tripod
6/. Fill flash matching the f5.6
I must admit I was shocked when I saw the above examples. While out shooting with the model I will also try the LV function, the only issue with that is being able to see the LCD in sunlight
Neil
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Another test at F8
Its with LV
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nqvffjzh12rk63m/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2016.14.17.png?raw=1)
2nd with TF
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nqeagugoyj871bm/Screenshot%202018-02-16%2016.13.38.png?raw=1)
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Even focus and recompose with true focus is only designed for vertical portraits and a sweeping movement around a horizontal axis. So anything off axis doesn't maintina focus accuracy per my experience.
....
I don't think that this statement is correct. There is no such limitation stated in the user manual. In fact, I remember even an official H instructional video, in which TF was demonstrated on a wide-angle landscape shot; the camera with TF was in landscape mode and swung around the vertical axis. I have used TF in this way in horizontal mode for close-up portrait shots with shallow DOF and did not experience any non-functioning of TF and thus unsharp pictures. Please check!
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I don't think that this statement is correct. There is no such limitation stated in the user manual. In fact, I remember even an official H instructional video, in which TF was demonstrated on a wide-angle landscape shot; the camera with TF was in landscape mode and swung around the vertical axis. I have used TF in this way in horizontal mode for close-up portrait shots with shallow DOF and did not experience any non-functioning of TF and thus unsharp pictures. Please check!
This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.
Cheers,
Bernard
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This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.
Cheers,
Bernard
That would be good, definitely important to know for proper usage of tools....
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This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.
Cheers,
Bernard
if you don't get a clear answer I will test it myself or will ask H in HQ! Need to know...
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This is how Hasselblad Japan explained it to me and what I see also, but I will double check.
Cheers,
Bernard
In this report it is pretty clear that TF will work for horizontal and vertical swings:
http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/using-true-focus.pdf
There is even an example described with TF and landscape mode moving left (sideways).
Quote:
PLEASE NOTE - In this implementation of True Focus, the sensors in the H4D are only programmed to detect movement of the camera about its own axis. ie. Imagine the camera fixed to a tripod but free to rotate left to right, up or down or a combination of the two. Similar to Tilt and Swing movements on a technical camera.
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Hi,
You need to consider the point of rotation. It is quite probable that the point of rotation is not the position of the inlet pupil.
Best regards
Erik
In this report it is pretty clear that TF will work for horizontal and vertical swings:
http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/using-true-focus.pdf
There is even an example described with TF and landscape mode moving left (sideways).
Quote:
PLEASE NOTE - In this implementation of True Focus, the sensors in the H4D are only programmed to detect movement of the camera about its own axis. ie. Imagine the camera fixed to a tripod but free to rotate left to right, up or down or a combination of the two. Similar to Tilt and Swing movements on a technical camera.
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Erik
I tried your focusing method using live view and I like it :) :) :) It was hot and humid and was a struggle with my glasses steaming up especially with the model Raneem looking super hot as well..........but anyway here is one of many shots that I took this morning.
H6D100c ISO100 f4.8 1/500 with my 150n lens
Neil
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/wguwba3b29a8pet/Neil%27s-Photography-Raneem0121.jpg?raw=1)
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The pictures are nice Neil.
In your initial samples I think it's a combination of focus issue and also a bit of movement.
The 150 is a long lens and it really needs a minimum of 1/500th for it with 100MP.
I've had very good result with Truefocus in horizontal or portrait orientation.
I don't think it will be long before we see an EVF viewfinder for the H and I think they've gone as far as they can with a single focus point too.
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Hi Neil. I have been through this whole exercise and found a solution which works. Auto focus for portrait and especially true focus, is too slow for me with hand held portrait. The moment has gone. A tripod helps, but as you said, you like to move around, and that is important. Forget live view on a tripod shooting portrait, unless the subject is asleep or dead.
The solution? Do what the best fashion and portrait photographers have done for decades, manual focus. It takes a little practice, but after a while, you'll find your focusing hand constantly fine tuning the focus without even thinking about it. And best of all, when the background is perfectly in place in relation to the subject and the moment is there, bang, you've got the shot.
You may not define the veins in the eyeballs all the time, but portrait is about the moment, not pin sharpness.
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Hi Garry,
True enough, but I have many more keepers using my Otus on the Nikon compared to manual focusing H lenses. I find their focus ring very coarse.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
Magnified live view is almost magic, but it may be affected by focus shift when stopping down.
Making small pixels justice may be a real enterprise!
Best regards
Erik
Hi Neil. I have been through this whole exercise and found a solution which works. Auto focus for portrait and especially true focus, is too slow for me with hand held portrait. The moment has gone. A tripod helps, but as you said, you like to move around, and that is important. Forget live view on a tripod shooting portrait, unless the subject is asleep or dead.
The solution? Do what the best fashion and portrait photographers have done for decades, manual focus. It takes a little practice, but after a while, you'll find your focusing hand constantly fine tuning the focus without even thinking about it. And best of all, when the background is perfectly in place in relation to the subject and the moment is there, bang, you've got the shot.
You may not define the veins in the eyeballs all the time, but portrait is about the moment, not pin sharpness.