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Author Topic: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic  (Read 5447 times)

John Caldwell

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Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« on: January 27, 2018, 02:33:03 PM »

The topic of brush lag is addressed on the Adobe Forum, but there aren't many recent responses. No long term solutions are described there.

Prior to the current program version, we've had no problems whatsoever with heavy brushwork. Presently brush lag borders on unusable on two of three of our systems. The system that does not lag is the system where external drives, on which catalog and images reside, is Firewire 800 connected. When the same external drive is USB connected, brush lag is intense. The mouse and Wacom tablets are all USB devices. Eliminating USB hubs makes no difference. I am tempted to wonder if the problem pertains to USB traffic. Photoshop does not exhibit brush lag on any of our systems.

We use all 27" iMac of different years, some 5K, some not, lots of RAM.

Is anyone using the current LR Classic CC program build with a Wacom tablet. If so, what the brush behavior, please?

Many thanks,

John Caldwell
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David Eichler

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 08:34:17 PM »

The topic of brush lag is addressed on the Adobe Forum, but there aren't many recent responses. No long term solutions are described there.

Prior to the current program version, we've had no problems whatsoever with heavy brushwork. Presently brush lag borders on unusable on two of three of our systems. The system that does not lag is the system where external drives, on which catalog and images reside, is Firewire 800 connected. When the same external drive is USB connected, brush lag is intense. The mouse and Wacom tablets are all USB devices. Eliminating USB hubs makes no difference. I am tempted to wonder if the problem pertains to USB traffic. Photoshop does not exhibit brush lag on any of our systems.

We use all 27" iMac of different years, some 5K, some not, lots of RAM.

Is anyone using the current LR Classic CC program build with a Wacom tablet. If so, what the brush behavior, please?

Many thanks,

John Caldwell

2018 iMac with SSD, 32GB RAM and 4.2GHZ i7 quadcore, with current Wacom pro tablet. No issues with routine processing. Also used this tablet with a 2012 Mac Mini and no problems with routine processing.   It is my understanding that Lightroom performance can tend to bog down with a large number of edits, with any system, and that has been my experience generally.
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John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2018, 12:30:13 PM »

David, thank you. If I may, please comment on your images and LR catalog and Previews: Do those assets live on the same or separate drives? If any of those assets are on external drives, is the connectivity USB or something else. Lastly, I'm guessing your Wacom is on USB?

Many thanks, David.

John-
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David Eichler

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 02:45:49 PM »

David, thank you. If I may, please comment on your images and LR catalog and Previews: Do those assets live on the same or separate drives? If any of those assets are on external drives, is the connectivity USB or something else. Lastly, I'm guessing your Wacom is on USB?

Many thanks, David.

John-

I have the catalog and previews on a fast SSD or NVME drive and I download and process the images on such a drive as well. A times this drive has been external but is currently internal. The processed images are stored on a hard drive raid. The external drives are via Thunderbolt 2. I mostly use the tablet in wireless mode. 
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John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2018, 02:55:05 PM »

I have the catalog and previews on a fast SSD or NVME drive and I download and process the images on such a drive as well. A times this drive has been external but is currently internal. The processed images are stored on a hard drive raid. The external drives are via Thunderbolt 2. I mostly use the tablet in wireless mode.

Thank you again. I ask because on one of our systems there is no brush lag. On that system the external drives are FW800 connected while the Wacom is USB of course. The systems with lag connect to the external drives via USB, on which the Wacom is also connected.

So your experience supports, I think, the observation that lag develops when Wacom, images and Catalog share the USB bus. Have you any thoughts on that, David?

I appreciate your comments.

John-
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David Eichler

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 05:26:12 PM »

Thank you again. I ask because on one of our systems there is no brush lag. On that system the external drives are FW800 connected while the Wacom is USB of course. The systems with lag connect to the external drives via USB, on which the Wacom is also connected.

So your experience supports, I think, the observation that lag develops when Wacom, images and Catalog share the USB bus. Have you any thoughts on that, David?

I appreciate your comments.

John-
Which usb? Usb 3 is faster than FireWire. Usb2 is not. A 5,000k iMac will have usb 3, but that wonít matter if the peripherals are usb 2. You may know all this, but it isnít clear from your description.
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David Eichler

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 02:06:51 PM »

Forgot to ask before whether the lag happens only with the machines with 5k monitors or that have GPU acceleration enabled.
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nemophoto

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 08:49:59 PM »

I get horrible lag with my brushes on my PC (non-5K display). It gets worse and worse the longer I use the program. Eventually, I have to quit LR, then restart -- that's the only solution I've found works. Today it got to the point where the screen would not redraw, and nothing would work properly for a good 30 seconds. I wish I weren't so wedded to LR's workflow and used to the controls. I've use my Capture One more. I also have On1, but I feel it's still inferior and has it's own speed issues, though much improved with 2018.

thepurge

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 09:46:31 AM »

Yes I have been having terrible lag the past three days! To the point where Iím still on the same picture 2 Days now. I have plenty of RAM, 4.2ghz i7 quadcore, 4K display monitor with NVDIA 1070 with Wacom Intous Pro, but running the images off my external hard drive. Although the hubs are 3.0. I was having some lag in photoshop to with masking burshes. I even switched the setting in prenfences to Ďshow smart preview instead of original while editing. Before 3 days ago I never once got lag to ever complain about. So Iím trying to figure out a solution to this?
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tonysiciliano1

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 12:00:21 PM »

I use a Mac Pro 2013, have LR on the SSD boot drive, and my photos on an external drive connected by Thunderbolt. At times I have had severe brush lag and the only fix is to uninstall LR and reinstall it. I haven't had it for the last six months though.
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John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 02:19:33 PM »

It didn't make sense that I was the only one here having the brush lag problem. Funny thing is, that lag does not surface in Photoshop on my systems, near as I can tell.

I'm also confident that brush lag was not a problem on any of our systems, using the same hardware and connectivity, in the day of LR 6. I believe is was the advent of Classic CC that brought the lag problem to the forefront.

John Caldwell
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nemophoto

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 05:31:40 PM »

Funny thing is, that lag does not surface in Photoshop on my systems, near as I can tell.

I'm also confident that brush lag was not a problem on any of our systems, using the same hardware and connectivity, in the day of LR 6. I believe is was the advent of Classic CC that brought the lag problem to the forefront.

I, too, have no issues, generally with lags and Photoshop. Well, actually, sometimes while masking, but not with any brushes etc. However, for me, the brush lag in LR has existed for at least a couple of years and seems to be getting worse. Funny thing is, if I use the same identical brushes in Camera RAW for a CR2 file, Photoshop has no issues of lag. Strange when you consider they are essentially the same engine. Maybe it has to do with LR journaling all the steps so you can go backward infinitely at any time?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 05:35:31 PM by nemophoto »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 05:28:36 AM »

Maybe it has to do with LR journaling all the steps so you can go backward infinitely at any time?

It's conceivable, as a difference between ACR and LR, but wouldn't everyone be affected? It's worth mentioning that in 7.0 Adobe began storing history data in a compressed form, though I would expect it to be a background process.

I haven't seen any kind of lag (defined how exactly?), but I routinely use the radial filter in preference to the brush and might not have noticed anything odd. The data for a radial filter is relatively simple compared with recording a brush's movement, so how many brush strokes and how "complicated" are they?

John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 02:59:45 PM »

It's conceivable, as a difference between ACR and LR, but wouldn't everyone be affected? It's worth mentioning that in 7.0 Adobe began storing history data in a compressed form, though I would expect it to be a background process.

I haven't seen any kind of lag (defined how exactly?), but I routinely use the radial filter in preference to the brush and might not have noticed anything odd. The data for a radial filter is relatively simple compared with recording a brush's movement, so how many brush strokes and how "complicated" are they?

The radial filter causes no lag that I've noticed, John. Brush strokes get in trouble once the number of strokes get's into the dozens, which is hardly unusual. Defining lag isn't difficult once you see it, as it's a deeply unsubtle grinding to a halt, with many seconds of catchup, with each stroke. The more lag there is, the more lag there is.

My workflow has used heavy brush edits for years. What's new is the LR version, I am very tempted to say.

Thanks, John.

John-
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john beardsworth

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 03:39:30 PM »

What would also be different in recent years is the size of the screen, and perhaps the size of the files. Is the GPU enabled, and do you see the spinner towards the bottom right of the central window? Have you tried disabling GPU and restarting LR? I'd also suggest using the radial filter more, if you can, and I know I tend to resort to the brush only after I have decided I can't achieve what I want with a series of radial adjustments.

You also made a point about the catalogue being on an external drive and the lag being worse when the drive is attached by USB. How sure are you about this?

John

John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 06:59:54 PM »

What would also be different in recent years is the size of the screen, and perhaps the size of the files. Is the GPU enabled, and do you see the spinner towards the bottom right of the central window? Have you tried disabling GPU and restarting LR? I'd also suggest using the radial filter more, if you can, and I know I tend to resort to the brush only after I have decided I can't achieve what I want with a series of radial adjustments.

You also made a point about the catalogue being on an external drive and the lag being worse when the drive is attached by USB. How sure are you about this?

John

John, the GPU enabling or disabling does not have a measurable impact on our systems. The system which shows no lag at all, just like the Old Days, is the system where the external drive is connected by FW800. That external drive, as a reminder, contains LR Catalog and all image files. The systems which exhibit lag connect to that same external drive via USB 2. What I've not yet tried is to copy a test catalog to a USB 3 drive, connect to that drive via USB 3, and observe for lag. The two systems that lag do not offer FW800, or I'd have been using that all along instead of USB 2. Of note, the system which does not lag, is our oldest and least powerful iMac.

Image resolution and screen resolution appear to make no difference.

Thanks for your interest.

John Caldwell
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nemophoto

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 01:32:36 PM »

Since I store 95% of all my different catalogs on external drives, I can say the brush lag is there regardless, but that it seems as though, as I go along, that LR is constantly writing updates to the disk drive. The drives I use are all USB 3, though some are straight drives while others are RAID, including RAID 5 which is somewhat speedy. I did read that Adobe is basically recommending NOT using Lightroom for many corrections or brush strokes. I do find the more I do in Lightroom, the slower it is and the more lag it displays. I still find it odd that Camera RAW does not display this issue. I think itís related to LR writing each and every change to the drive every time you do something. Sometimes I sit for a while to wait till all the writing is done and then I see the lag subside. I find it interesting that Capture One 11 does NOt display any sort of brush lag with its layers and brushes. I still prefer LR, including color rendition, but C1 seems to have implemented things pretty well.


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John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 02:30:11 PM »

Since I store 95% of all my different catalogs on external drives, I can say the brush lag is there regardless, but that it seems as though, as I go along, that LR is constantly writing updates to the disk drive. The drives I use are all USB 3, though some are straight drives while others are RAID, including RAID 5 which is somewhat speedy. I did read that Adobe is basically recommending NOT using Lightroom for many corrections or brush strokes. I do find the more I do in Lightroom, the slower it is and the more lag it displays. I still find it odd that Camera RAW does not display this issue. I think itís related to LR writing each and every change to the drive every time you do something. Sometimes I sit for a while to wait till all the writing is done and then I see the lag subside. I find it interesting that Capture One 11 does NOt display any sort of brush lag with its layers and brushes. I still prefer LR, including color rendition, but C1 seems to have implemented things pretty well.


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My remorse stems from the fact that while my work has always been really brush-intensive, it used to work well. I am a Doubting Thomas that some aspect of the LR architecture didn't change, giving rise the advice to not use the Brush unless you have to.
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nemophoto

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 02:34:40 PM »

They also recommend doing all the brush/healing work 1st THEN do adjustments. I think it has to do with the fact that after you do the adjustments, every time you use the brush, I think itís applying all the adjustments to each brush stroke. Sounds f*cked up, but what do I know about writing software?


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John Caldwell

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Re: Brush Lag: LR CC Classic
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 02:40:04 PM »

They also recommend doing all the brush/healing work 1st THEN do adjustments...
I hadn't thought of that. But again, if you'll pardon the perseveration, nothing is new in the way that I work expect the LR version. Again I'll add though one of our systems shows no lag, with many brush edits, all put in place after global adjustments. I's sure like to know what that system works, as do several of the systems operated by some of the respondents here.
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