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Author Topic: Climate Change: Science and Issues  (Read 56650 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #580 on: January 10, 2018, 01:42:29 PM »

Then do yourself (and us) a favor and move on.
As the moderator, I'm supposed to be impartial but this I can agree with! ;)
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Chris Sanderson

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #581 on: January 10, 2018, 02:14:36 PM »

I asked Ray and Alan to moderate this discussion since they are both passionately interested in it and have contributed to it. My inclination was simply to close it. I certainly did not expect impartiality but I did/do expect fact rather than fiction or diatribe.

So far, generally, this experiment in moderation has been successful - thanks to them - and has allowed the discussion to continue. Those readers that are less interested or expect neutrality are invited to read elsewhere or use the Ignore Boards function.
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Christopher Sanderson
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tom b

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #582 on: January 12, 2018, 01:16:12 AM »

To quote Kevin:

"Enough is Enough!  The Coffee Corner has always been a place to share a thought or view not covered in our other forum topics and relating to the field of photography.  Lately, it has gotten to be a political and religious platform.  This will be no more.  There are plenty of other platforms to express your political and religious views.  We will also not tolerate the personal attacks on others because of what they say or believe."

This thread is a direct offshoot of the locked  Climate change deniers thread. To me it fits into Kevin's, "There are plenty of other platforms to express your political and religious views" statement.

Donald Trump tweeted: "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." If that is not political I don't know what is.

Obviously my opinion of what constitutes a political view is different from the moderators.

If I have caused offence I apoligise.

Respectfully,






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Tom Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #583 on: January 15, 2018, 04:58:33 PM »

Ford plans $11 billion investment, 40 electrified vehicles by 2022.  Who needs Paris? This is the way it should be.   No government favorites (hopefully rebates will be gone by then). Just regular free markets incentivizing future products and capital investment.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor/ford-plans-11-billion-investment-40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #584 on: January 16, 2018, 02:51:54 AM »

Who needs Paris?
Without Paris there would be no market for this ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #585 on: January 16, 2018, 09:01:51 AM »

Here is a nuanced article in The New York Times on the impact of increased atmospheric CO2 levels on freshwater lakes and streams.  It points out that pH changes (e.g., more acidification) can take place but the impact is still unclear.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #586 on: January 16, 2018, 10:17:05 AM »

Without Paris there would be no market for this ;)
Paris was only signed a couple of years ago. Green energy has been developing for a very very long time. I was involved in energy management in the 1970s 1980s and 1990s installing Energy Management Systems. But my main point is that America doesn't have to be in Paris for American businesses to develop green Energy Products. That's the myth I was debunking

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #587 on: January 16, 2018, 10:43:25 AM »

Paris was only signed a couple of years ago. Green energy has been developing for a very very long time. I was involved in energy management in the 1970s 1980s and 1990s installing Energy Management Systems. But my main point is that America doesn't have to be in Paris for American businesses to develop green Energy Products. That's the myth I was debunking
Does this also "debunk" the myth that you killed off much of your internal market? I don't think so, US companies will have a much tougher time due to less internal US demand.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #588 on: January 16, 2018, 12:35:27 PM »

Does this also "debunk" the myth that you killed off much of your internal market? I don't think so, US companies will have a much tougher time due to less internal US demand.
Countries do better in a free-market consumer demand driven economy rather than a top-down structure of government regulation and rebates. Didn't we learn that from the Soviets Cubans and Venezuelans? 

Meanwhile the American Tesla and Chevy Volt are both losing money because there's no consumer demand even or in spite of the government rebates. Car companies in America are now investing For future electric cars but they are worried that they really won't be any consumer demand for them. Of course China is mandating that their cars become electric and we'll see that in Europe as well. So American car manufacturers will build to that demand if not an American demand.

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #589 on: January 16, 2018, 01:05:58 PM »

Countries do better in a free-market consumer demand driven economy rather than a top-down structure of government regulation and rebates. Didn't we learn that from the Soviets Cubans and Venezuelans?
I agree, so Mr. Trump better stops the support for the coal industry. Picking that as a winner seems a disaster, not only as a climate issue.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #590 on: January 16, 2018, 03:11:59 PM »

I agree, so Mr. Trump better stops the support for the coal industry. Picking that as a winner seems a disaster, not only as a climate issue.

Removing regulations on coal unilaterally imposed by the last president is not picking winners and losers. Trump also removed regulations on oil and natural gas drilling and the XL oil pipeline which are competitors of coal.  Now, let free "laissez faire" markets work.  Coal will continue to be marginalized and replaced by natural gas which is cleaner and cheaper.  But that will be a normal economic process not one imposed by a "green" president who thinks his ideas of how our economy should work are paramount and who supports certain "green" industries and companies with special rebates and discounts.     

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #591 on: January 16, 2018, 05:17:08 PM »

Removing regulations on coal unilaterally imposed by the last president is not picking winners and losers. Trump also removed regulations on oil and natural gas drilling and the XL oil pipeline which are competitors of coal.  Now, let free "laissez faire" markets work.  Coal will continue to be marginalized and replaced by natural gas which is cleaner and cheaper.  But that will be a normal economic process not one imposed by a "green" president who thinks his ideas of how our economy should work are paramount and who supports certain "green" industries and companies with special rebates and discounts.     

Found an interesting article on Coal

Quote
Trump began by hiring coal-friendly aides like Pruitt, who had repeatedly teamed up with fossil-fuel interests to sue President Barack Obama’s EPA when he was Oklahoma attorney general, and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, the founder of a coal company that once had a deadly disaster in one of its mines. Trump’s nominee to be Pruitt’s deputy is a coal lobbyist; his nominee to be assistant labor secretary for mine safety and health ran a mining company with a checkered safety record.

The result has been a flurry of coal-friendly actions. Pruitt is taking aim not only at Obama’s carbon plan for the power industry but a host of other rules limiting mercury, soot, smog and other discharges from coal operations. The president defied the world by withdrawing from the Paris climate agreement, specifically complaining that it was unfair to American coal. His administration has also lifted Obama’s moratorium on coal leases on federal land, ended Obama’s restrictions on financing coal projects overseas, and shut down a study of the health effects of coal mining that blasts away entire mountains. His energy secretary, Rick Perry, recently proposed new subsidies for coal plants that keep stockpiles of coal handy, galvanizing opposition from an odd coalition of renewable energy advocates, environmentalists, Koch Industries and other oil and gas interests, manufacturers and other electricity consumers.

At a hearing last week, a Democratic congressman asked Perry why he was pushing a plan that could prop up outdated coal plants and increase costs to ratepayers. The secretary’s response summed up the administration’s approach to coal: “I think you take costs into account, but what’s the cost of freedom? What’s the cost to keep America free? I’m not sure I want to leave that up to the free market.”
(bolded emphasis mine)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #592 on: January 16, 2018, 08:14:48 PM »

Global warming:

Temperatures Plunged to -88.6°F in Parts of Russia.

http://time.com/5104412/extreme-cold-temperatures-yakutia-russia/

Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #593 on: January 16, 2018, 10:41:06 PM »

Found an interesting article on Coal
 (bolded emphasis mine)
Rick Perry is a jerk. Even other administrations groups opposed his buying coal to "help keep America free."  He had a better idea when he wanted to shut down the Energy Department completely.  We probably could shut down half the Federal government and their "work" and wasteful spending wouldn't be missed.

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #594 on: January 17, 2018, 03:00:45 AM »

Rick Perry is a jerk. Even other administrations groups opposed his buying coal to "help keep America free."  He had a better idea when he wanted to shut down the Energy Department completely.  We probably could shut down half the Federal government and their "work" and wasteful spending wouldn't be missed.
Glad we agree on that one Alan :)

But how about "a host of other rules limiting mercury, soot, smog and other discharges from coal operations."  You were rightfully upset when Volkswagen polluted your clean air, but it's OK for the coal industry to do the same (and worse)? 
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #596 on: January 17, 2018, 06:59:35 AM »

Global warming:

Temperatures Plunged to -88.6°F in Parts of Russia.

So?

What are you suggesting? That weather extremes are becoming more frequent?
Or that there is no global warming in that part of Russia?

I looked it up for you and attached a chart of the temperatures (in °Celsius) as recorded by the Yakutia weather station. Unfortunately, I couldn't find older data, so it's not possible to extract a multi-decadal climate trend (which would allow to see solar activity cycles and such). It looks like the weather was even colder (-60 °F / -51 °C) there in 2012 (January 13th, 11:30PM), I don't know where the temperature mentioned in the article was recorded.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:08:56 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #597 on: January 17, 2018, 08:02:47 AM »

As I said, when it is colder, it is weather... when it is warmer, it is climate 😉

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #598 on: January 17, 2018, 09:22:44 AM »

As I said, when it is colder, it is weather... when it is warmer, it is climate 😉
As I said before when you posted something like this, you're mistaken: Long term data (averaging 10-20-30 yrs) is climate, short term data (averaging a day/week/month) is weather. Warmer and colder has nothing to do with it.  Just read the link I gave in post 595, that explains it.

Or maybe this one is clearer for you ;)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:27:06 AM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #599 on: January 17, 2018, 11:13:18 AM »

As I said, when it is colder, it is weather... when it is warmer, it is climate 😉

We know that you are probably intelligent enough to understand the difference between long-teerm trends in climate and day to day variations in weather. That very topic has been discussed here and elsewhere many times, it is by now a given. So why the trolling? Is it just to get peoples' backs up and derail the thread?

If you have documentary evidence that there is no climate warming (or cooling) or that human activity is not contributing (or is), then please just present that so the rest of us can read it.
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