Climate Change: Science and Issues

[tom b]

Sorry, it's nothing to do with what I agree or disagree with. How many times can you repeat the same things and you think that someone's opinions will be changed by your brilliant, insightful arguments. Really how many times can a few and I mean a few people keep on doing it.

Obviously over 500 times isn't the limit.

This is a photography forum, perhaps you could post your comments on a more appropriate political site.

A challenge to the main participants, add as many images to this site as you have made posts to this link before you post here again.

Just saying,

[pegelli]

Sorry, it's nothing to do with what I agree or disagree with. How many times can you repeat the same things and you think that someone's opinions will be changed by your brilliant, insightful arguments. Really how many times can a few and I mean a few people keep on doing it.

Obviously over 500 times isn't the limit.

This is a photography forum, perhaps you could post your comments on a more appropriate political site.

A challenge to the main participants, add as many images to this site as you have made posts to this link before you post here again.

Just saying,

Apparently you disagree with the repetition

If you look back I've probably put as many or more pictures on this site as I have made posts in this thread and all the other "political" threads have been supressed.
Nobody is forcing you to look/read here if you don't want to.

And while I don't agree with the viewpoints of all posters here I must say that the discussion at this point is reasonably civil and I find the viewpoints of others interesting to read (even the repetitions in different words). Also the links to articles and other publications are worthwhile, again irrespective if I agree with them or not.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Sorry, it's nothing to do with what I agree or disagree with. How many times can you repeat the same things and you think that someone's opinions will be changed by your brilliant, insightful arguments. Really how many times can a few and I mean a few people keep on doing it.

Obviously over 500 times isn't the limit.

Hi Tom,

Allow me to disagree.

In the Coffee Corner we exchange casual observations and thoughts, although they may be founded on solid reasoning or evidence (and sometimes not). Climate change does not only affect our personal well-being, or that of our fellow human beings, but can also impact our Photographic opportunities (in various ways).

Changing someone's (entrenched) opinion is not easy, and some folks are simply too selfish and don't give a rat's ass about how other humans (even their own offspring) are impacted by their actions (or lack thereof). Some, especially if ill-informed, may learn a thing or two and change opinion, others did not have a strong or well-founded opinion and are now better able to understand the issues.

Then there are those who are only participating to troll and try to get the thread shut down, yet they often underestimate the intelligence of their opponents. They will never admit that they are wrong, because their goal is not to be educated but to derail.

So, the best we can do is supply (scientifically founded) ammo for those who are openminded enough and willing to learn something from the exchange. I for one have learned that the situation we're facing is even worse than I thought, and the discussions made me do more research to understand the issues and how I can personally contribute to a solution. Even if only locally, I'm playing my part in improving the situation (in my own behavior, politically, and by using my skills for setting up sustainability projects in my hometown). One person does not make a whole lot of difference, but if everybody thinks that way then there will never be a change for the better.

Cheers,
Bart

[RSL]

Run for the hills. It's cooler up there. It'll take longer for global warming to get to you.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Run for the hills. It's cooler up there. It'll take longer for global warming to get to you.

Not cooler just in the hills ...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/sahara-desert-snow-storm-climate-algeria-ain-sefra-africa-weather-latest-a8149226.html

BTW: Weather is not Climate Change, but extreme weather (droughts in some places and more precipitation in other places) is a logical consequence of global warming.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

And on a related note:

Ocean Deoxygenation:
http://www.oceanscientists.org/index.php/topics/ocean-deoxygenation

and

Declining oxygen in the global ocean and coastal waters:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6371/eaam7240.full

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

Hi Tom,

Allow me to disagree.

In the Coffee Corner we exchange casual observations and thoughts, although they may be founded on solid reasoning or evidence (and sometimes not). Climate change does not only affect our personal well-being, or that of our fellow human beings, but can also impact our Photographic opportunities (in various ways).

Changing someone's (entrenched) opinion is not easy, and some folks are simply too selfish and don't give a rat's ass about how other humans (even their own offspring) are impacted by their actions (or lack thereof). Some, especially if ill-informed, may learn a thing or two and change opinion, others did not have a strong or well-founded opinion and are now better able to understand the issues.

Then there are those who are only participating to troll and try to get the thread shut down, yet they often underestimate the intelligence of their opponents. They will never admit that they are wrong, because their goal is not to be educated but to derail.

So, the best we can do is supply (scientifically founded) ammo for those who are openminded enough and willing to learn something from the exchange. I for one have learned that the situation we're facing is even worse than I thought, and the discussions made me do more research to understand the issues and how I can personally contribute to a solution. Even if only locally, I'm playing my part in improving the situation (in my own behavior, politically, and by using my skills for setting up sustainability projects in my hometown). One person does not make a whole lot of difference, but if everybody thinks that way then there will never be a change for the better.

Cheers,
Bart

Well I'm glad you're so sensitive, knowledgeable and care so much for our fellow man while the rest of us insensitive knuckle draggers are too stupid to understand what's going on.  Keep up the good work.

[RSL]

Not cooler just in the hills ...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/sahara-desert-snow-storm-climate-algeria-ain-sefra-africa-weather-latest-a8149226.html

BTW: Weather is not Climate Change, but extreme weather (droughts in some places and more precipitation in other places) is a logical consequence of global warming.

Cheers,
Bart

Stop it you guys. I've gotta stop laughing and get up off the floor.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Well I'm glad you're so sensitive, knowledgeable and care so much for our fellow man while the rest of us insensitive knuckle draggers are too stupid to understand what's going on.  Keep up the good work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxq53_ZkmZc

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Goldhammer]

I guess I'm going to have to start editing this thread.  I just removed two comments one by tom_b and the second by Bart that had nothing to do with the topic on hand.  Apparently tom_b did not read the first post of this thread as to what Ray and I are trying to accomplish.  We did get Chris's permission to see if this would work in terms of having an intelligent discussion of the issues.  I feel strongly that this does have an impact on photography both in terms of documenting climate change by capturing interesting images and possibly destroying some natural sites that photographers treasure.  I want the thread to remain open but that will depend on those who visit it to comment.  If you don't have a contribution to the topic, just ignore us and read other threads that you might find more interesting.  It's easy enough to do.

[Alan Klein]

Frankly, I agreed with tom b's comment that no one is changing anyone else's mind and have said similar things.  His comment is just as valid about this subject as anyone's else and should not have been deleted.  It reflects a very important point about the topic - that positions are hard drawn.  People who post to this thread have made up their minds one way or the other and won't change their opinions.    Nothing changes if nothing changes.  If we are to get out of our rut, a different viewpoint and way of handling the issue is necessary.  tom b's posts reflect the necessity of that happening if we are going to get off the merry-go-round. Otherwise we're just going to spend another 29 pages of posts regurgitating the same old positions.  Yada, yada. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Frankly, I agreed with tom b's comment that no one is changing anyone else's mind and have said similar things.  His comment is just as valid about this subject as anyone's else and should not have been deleted.  It reflects a very important point about the topic - that positions are hard drawn.  People who post to this thread have made up their minds one way or the other and won't change their opinions.    Nothing changes if nothing changes.  If we are to get out of our rut, a different viewpoint and way of handling the issue is necessary.  tom b's posts reflect the necessity of that happening if we are going to get off the merry-go-round. Otherwise we're just going to spend another 29 pages of posts regurgitating the same old positions.  Yada, yada.

That's a broad generalization. It is certainly true that several of the regular contributors have clear opinions and have not "changed" their minds over time, but so what, no one expected that. So long as people post useful information, which is the point of this thread, that can be very useful to the larger audience of readers (many of whom may not contribute regularly or at all). I don't see this as a debate between two teams that trying to "win" something. As Alan G said, if you don't find the material useful or informative, don't read the thread. If the topic exhausts itself, the thread will end on its own.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Frankly, I agreed with tom b's comment that no one is changing anyone else's mind and have said similar things.  His comment is just as valid about this subject as anyone's else and should not have been deleted.  It reflects a very important point about the topic - that positions are hard drawn. 

I have to disagree with you!  Here is what I wrote in the first post to this thread:

Climate change will affect us as photographers by ending some opportunities (disappearance of Arctic and Antarctic photo sites) and open up some new ones (lots of documentary opportunities).  We had a previous thread on this topic in The Coffee Corner that was shut down because the ad hominem attacks got out of hand.  This is a second attempt to focus the topic on science and key issues.  Ray and I posted on the existing thread about Changes in the Coffee Corner and are willing to give this another shot.  Personal attacks won't be tolerated and if we cannot lock the thread, we will contact Chris.

Let's keep this civil and focus on the research and issues that are coming forward.

It was/is my hope that we can continue to post new articles and findings for discussion.  Whether or not these change anyone's mind is not particularly relevant as far as I am concerned.  It is more useful to have place were people can discuss findings or just read about them if they are so inclined.  As Robert Roaldi noted, if nobody posts the thread will die out just as so many other LuLa threads have over the years.  If people want to continue post polemic statements I am just as happy to shut the thread down as that is what happened to several other threads in The Coffee Corner over the past year. 

[tom b]

The role of a moderator is to remain impartial. Ray and Alan have made all too many posts to this thread to claim that title. Maybe they should recuse themselves.

Just thinking,

[pegelli]

The role of a moderator is to remain impartial. Ray and Alan have made all too many posts to this thread to claim that title. Maybe they should recuse themselves.

Just thinking,

In my mind their only role as moderators is to keep the thread on-topic and civil. At that they're doing a great job.
I see no need for them to be impartial on climate change to fullfill that role, I can't see why they can't contribute to the content of the discussion and keeping the other contributors in check at the same time. I think the difference between on topic content and trolling is quite clear and as far as I'm concerned they could even delete more trolling contributions, but they took on the challenge and do the work, so it's their call.

[tom b]

The role of a moderator is to remain impartial.

Ray and Alan have put forward continual input and bias for their agendas. I can't recount any other LuLa thread that the moderators have inserted themselves so much into the narrative.

Frustrated and perplexed,

[Alan Klein]

This isn't a college lecture. We aren't doing a homework assignment  and have to follow the teachers instructions. We're not children. Mixing it up will make the thread interesting. After all it is a coffee table discussion. As long as there no personal attacks or cursing, I think all posts should be valid and respected.

[Alan Klein]

Alan G.  You're doing a good job. Being moderator is not easy. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

I think the title of this thread which ends with science and issues, makes it clear that other things besides science and science articles apply. Maybe we should start a new thread called "Climate change: science , economics, social and political issues". That would open up the field to a more General discussion then just listing articles which canget pretty boring.

[pegelli]

The role of a moderator is to remain impartial.

Ray and Alan have put forward continual input and bias for their agendas. I can't recount any other LuLa thread that the moderators have inserted themselves so much into the narrative.

Frustrated and perplexed,

Why? Because you say so?

In the past I've seen Michael Reichmann take strong positions in technical debates as well as other "debate" threads where he remained far from impartial to the topic being discussed. I've never had a problem with that, irrespective if I agreed with what he said or not. The current LL site moderators do less so, but that's not the point.

See here for moderator roles (on a forum):

The primary role of a forum moderator should be to promote interaction. A forum moderator should be posting new threads and adding new content to the site. They should be helping out members with their queries and they should be keeping threads alive by asking questions.

How can they add new content to the thread if they are not allowed to express their own opinion on the topic?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

.... Frustrated and perplexed,

Then do yourself (and us) a favor and move on.