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Author Topic: What does it take?  (Read 68606 times)

Justinr

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #200 on: July 16, 2016, 02:20:17 pm »

Let me quote from one of the more enlightened posts on this thread: "If you guys don't solve your refugee problem you're going to see something that will astound you. France is beginning to learn that lesson. You guys had better pay attention. . . You'd be a hell of a lot better off if your good citizens were armed."

I'm not sure that you appreciate this but should you wander around the UK declaring such a message to all and sundry you will at best be gently shunned or at worst sectioned.  More likely you will accumulate a rag tag bunch of weirdos desperate to alleviate their inner angst or some tragic incident in the past by shooting feck out of the nearest playground.
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #201 on: July 16, 2016, 02:58:56 pm »

Don't worry Justin, I won't be wandering around the UK.

And I've had enough of this absurdity. I'm outta here.
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Justinr

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #202 on: July 16, 2016, 03:15:57 pm »

Don't worry Justin, I won't be wandering around the UK.

And I've had enough of this absurdity. I'm outta here.

I know know, all the world is marching out of step except you.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #203 on: July 16, 2016, 05:55:52 pm »

... you're even more gullible than I think you are.

In other words: "I'm SO much smarter than you"  8)

Bye bye, RSL
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LesPalenik

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #204 on: July 17, 2016, 12:09:19 am »

It's a very misleading chart, Bart, and if you don't know that you should. I suspect you do. The most obvious error is that the chart doesn't deal with murders. It deals with "gun deaths," deliberately implying that gun deaths are murders. To have any meaning you'd have to remove suicides from the chart, along with proper self-defense deaths, plus a few other categories I haven't time at the moment to research.

So how DO people in Netherlands commit suicide? Knives? Poison?

True story.
Friend's quite overweight brother had been having problems with diabetes, high blood pressure, fatigue, depression, and number of other side effects from all the medications he's been ingesting. Finally, his daughter talked some sense into him, got him on a healthy diet, with which he complied, he lost some weight and his health normalized enough, so that he was able to stop insuline injections. Unfortunately, after six months or so, he fell back into the old groove, and had to resort to taking the old medications, including the insuline injections. When his daughter saw him again and asked why did he stop his diet, his answer was "It's easier to get the shots". Sadly, the shots were not enough to cure the illness and he felt so rotten, that he eventually committed a suicide using a handgun.

Two more points:
- The poor fellow resided in Canada, where gun laws are quite strict, but he managed to buy a handgun illegally. So often, even in a country with strict gun laws, whover wants a gun, can find ways to get one.
- Even more importantly, if he had continued eating more carots and brocoli and stayed on the health diet, he wouldn't have relapsed into serious diabetes and depression, consequently wouldn't have purchased the revolver and he might have been still alive. Which leads to a conclusion that also many of the shooting criminals might be not eating properly.
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Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #205 on: July 17, 2016, 05:48:18 am »

In other words: "I'm SO much smarter than you"  8)

Bye bye, RSL


Only thing is, in so many cases, he is.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #206 on: July 17, 2016, 12:01:12 pm »

Baton Rouge, today: seven police officers shot, three dead. Still think armed civilians a good idea?

AreBee

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #207 on: July 17, 2016, 12:34:37 pm »

Rob,

Quote
...in so many cases, he is.

List them.
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jfirneno

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #208 on: July 17, 2016, 01:25:27 pm »

Baton Rouge, today: seven police officers shot, three dead. Still think armed civilians a good idea?

That's what you get when you elect an American President who blames the police instead of the criminals.  We won't elect another like that again.  Hate to say it but these killers will just make Trump's lead bigger.
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pegelli

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #209 on: July 17, 2016, 01:56:25 pm »

That's what you get when you elect an American President who blames the police instead of the criminals.  We won't elect another like that again.  Hate to say it but these killers will just make Trump's lead bigger.
Do you have some direct quotes or links of Obama "blaming" the police? Most of what we get to see in the European media is Obama supporting the police and condemning violence against them.
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pieter, aka pegelli

jfirneno

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #210 on: July 17, 2016, 02:38:27 pm »

Do you have some direct quotes or links of Obama "blaming" the police? Most of what we get to see in the European media is Obama supporting the police and condemning violence against them.

Sure, here are a few.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-ferguson-violence-20140814-story.html

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-ferguson-violence-20140814-story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/politics/obama-zimmerman/

Basically if a police officer is involved with an African American, from Obama's point of view he's always wrong.
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Rand47

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #211 on: July 17, 2016, 04:00:33 pm »

Hi Rand,

Although it's just one source of information (I have not verified against others, or more recent stats), there is an additional interesting aspect it shows.

Apparently, people who do kill or commit a crime (most don't) will use the closest thing at hand to commit that e.g. homicide. I suppose (don't know if statistics are available) that the number of knifes available, dwarfs the number of guns available ..., yet a disproportionately lower number of those available potential 'weapons' seems to be used to actually kill someone (else). And all those knifes do not seem to merely replace the reduced availability of guns as a weapon of choice.

So availability alone seems to not explain the number of casualties (as we already knew from other countries), but it's just harder to kill several dozens of people with a knife than with an automatic weapon (or accidentally kill someone else), which helped the drop in the gun related homicides.

There does seem to be something wrong with the people and their political/social system if one nation on our planet thinks that guns are a solution to everything, despite the unmatched amount of killing it generates.

We should be careful to directly apply those statistics to other countries/cultures (without corrections for local differences), because we do know (from their specific statistics) that in the USA a disproportionate number of gun violence takes place (see the PostScriptum I've added at the end of this post). That's not only because of the availability (and resulting accidents), but also due to other (social) factors. So statistics that show a ratio between gun vs knife killings in the USA itself should also be educational.

Anyway, in Australia is seems to help to reduce the number of guns that are in free circulation, and people do not really pick another alternative to do the same thing. Maybe they just woke up to their prior insane behavior. Congratulations.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863
Figure 7. on page 6 of the PDF confirms also in the USA, a disproportionate number of firearm related homicides  compared to the much more abundantly available knifes (and blunt objects) as weapon of choice.

Bart,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. As crude as this sounds, guns would seem naturally to be preferred for homicide because they are more efficient and often are used from at least some distance.  Stabbing someone to death is an up-close-and-personal kind of thing and would be avoided by most intent on homicide given that they have a choice.  Kind of like the difference between a nice "sanitary" killing of people with drones operated from an air conditioned box hundreds or thousands of miles from those being killed, as opposed to soldiers in hand to hand combat with the enemy. 

I'm all for appropriate gun control.  I don't think, however, that even if there were very stringent gun control laws passed in the US that it would prevent even one of the kind of incidents we've seen recently.  The cat is out of the bag, so to speak.  Short of a complete ban on private firearm ownership there are so many firearms already in circulation that anyone who "really wants to" get such weapons for evil purposes can easily do so and will be able to do so for many many decades to come.  A total ban on private firearm ownership would most likely start a revolution in this country, leading to citizen groups in a shooting war with authorities . 

In my view there is no secular cure for the problem of evil, and when societies will not even acknowledge evil as evil, then the likelihood that society can in any way effectively suppress evil by civil means, no matter the methodology, isn't very promising.  Post modern relativism, along with post modern philosophy that states that all "metanarratives" are only about power, is killing the west, and the U.S. in particular.  The questions of post modernist philosophy are good ones, the problem is that the loss of any moral consensus in the US leaves us without any relevant answers.

I know this seems as though it is completely off the topic, but in my view it is the root of the problem. 

Rand
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Peter McLennan

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #212 on: July 17, 2016, 06:36:32 pm »

Only thing is, in so many cases, he is.
Rob

Enlighten me, please.  If he's smarter than me, I'd love to know how.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 10:04:47 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Photog-x

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #213 on: July 17, 2016, 09:08:48 pm »

Baton Rouge, today: seven police officers shot, three dead. Still think armed civilians a good idea?

At least not for hateful Nation of Islam members:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/17/baton-rouge-shooter-gavin-eugene-long-was-nation-of-islam-member-railed-against-crackers-on-youtube-channel-video/

And not good for mentally disturbed people either.  Perfectly fine for the millions of us good citizens who never bother anyone. 

Just thinking out loud...I wonder why nations that have strict guns laws still have a police force or even an army???   Anyone know? 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 09:14:50 pm by Photog-x »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #214 on: July 17, 2016, 10:18:56 pm »

Cleveland, Ohio (CNN)The head of Cleveland's largest police union is calling on Ohio Gov. John Kasich to temporarily restrict the state's gun laws during this week's Republican National Convention following Sunday's shooting in Louisiana that killed three officers and wounded at least three others.

"We are sending a letter to Gov. Kasich requesting assistance from him. He could very easily do some kind of executive order or something -- I don't care if it's constitutional or not at this point," Stephen Loomis, president of Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, told CNN. "They can fight about it after the RNC or they can lift it after the RNC, but I want him to absolutely outlaw open-carry in Cuyahoga County until this RNC is over."
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pegelli

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #215 on: July 18, 2016, 02:36:45 am »

Sure, here are a few.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-ferguson-violence-20140814-story.html

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-ferguson-violence-20140814-story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/politics/obama-zimmerman/

Basically if a police officer is involved with an African American, from Obama's point of view he's always wrong.
Thanks, I read these references with great interest. My conclusion is that it's not a black and white [pun not intended] as your conclusion and there's a lot more balanced information in there.

Coming back to the question of this thread "What does it take?" my conclusion is that a return to a normal debate would be the first step.

As long as there are large groups who scream (not the same groups shout these at the same time)
- Obama is always wrong
- Blacks are mostly criminals and shy to work
- White Police officers are mostly racist
- Trump only spreads lies
- All Muslims are terrorists
- ...... etc.

without any balance and having some appreciation for other opinions the society will remain split and violence will (in my mind) only increase.
Opinions should be based on more then just the sound bites the parties wish to spread.

 

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pieter, aka pegelli

drmike

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #216 on: July 18, 2016, 02:53:28 am »

Just thinking out loud...I wonder why nations that have strict guns laws still have a police force or even an army???   Anyone know?

Because gun crime in many European countries represents only a tiny fraction of illegal activities such as theft, fraud, child molestation, motoring offences. I think that's a possibility.
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Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #217 on: July 18, 2016, 04:51:44 am »

Enlighten me, please.  If he's smarter than me, I'd love to know how.

1.  If you reread your own post to which I was replying, you'll note that both your original post (to which I responded) and my reply implied a 'general' sense of the word 'you' and not a specific as in you, Peter McLennan; however, perhaps you did prefer to assume a message directed to you, personally, by Russ, which would be quite out of character for him to do. The fact that you use the words 'in other words' demonstrates that you are putting interpretation into play rather than direct quotation and sense derived therefrom.

"In other words: "I'm SO much smarter than you"  8)

Bye bye, RSL"


2. Should you care to look at Russ's websites, read his writings and into his photographs, you would have to be suffering from an acute dose of voluntary blindness if you couldn't see that his observational and expressive abilities go way beyond those usually found here in LuLa and in the general world outwith this little microcosm within which we swim.

Go outwith that, and you find a man who managed to get a very enviable education, signed up to fly fighters for his country, managed a lot of vital radar services and developed a software company which he eventually sold; managed to educate several children and ensure they reached full personal development allowing them golden careers themselves, was able to own three homes at the same time without crying aloud at the pain. If that's not unusual, if you can match that yourself - since you wish to assume the burden personally - I'll happily grant you that you are far superior at least to myself - no contest!

Rob

Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #218 on: July 18, 2016, 04:53:48 am »

Because gun crime in many European countries represents only a tiny fraction of illegal activities such as theft, fraud, child molestation, motoring offences. I think that's a possibility.


A very likely one!

Rob C

tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #219 on: July 18, 2016, 08:12:29 am »

Some disturbing numbers that I have heard in the last week:

Refugees, Displaced People Surpass 60 Million For First Time, UNHCR

Half of the Wold's 30 million slaves are children

One million dead in Iraq

As my OP asks, "What does it take…" to get our priorities right? (Buying more guns, I think not.)

Cheers,
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