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Author Topic: What does it take?  (Read 68609 times)

Rand47

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2016, 11:02:23 pm »



It would appear that Canadians have merely substituted stabing and clubbing for firearms as a percentage of the total homicide rate, per nation.

Rand
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tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2016, 11:16:47 pm »

My original post was "What does it take?"

It was partly about gun control which has worked very well in Australia to prevent mass shootings, murders and suicides.

It was also about that tipping point where a society realises that things aren't working and does all it can to make things work for the better!

Cheers,
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Rand47

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2016, 11:48:29 pm »

And here's an interesting statistic from Australia:



As I said earlier, it is, in my view, more about the evil that mankind does, and the erosion of moral consensus.

Rand
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2016, 06:44:36 am »

And here's an interesting statistic from Australia:



As I said earlier, it is, in my view, more about the evil that mankind does, and the erosion of moral consensus.

Hi Rand,

Although it's just one source of information (I have not verified against others, or more recent stats), there is an additional interesting aspect it shows.

Apparently, people who do kill or commit a crime (most don't) will use the closest thing at hand to commit that e.g. homicide. I suppose (don't know if statistics are available) that the number of knifes available, dwarfs the number of guns available ..., yet a disproportionately lower number of those available potential 'weapons' seems to be used to actually kill someone (else). And all those knifes do not seem to merely replace the reduced availability of guns as a weapon of choice.

So availability alone seems to not explain the number of casualties (as we already knew from other countries), but it's just harder to kill several dozens of people with a knife than with an automatic weapon (or accidentally kill someone else), which helped the drop in the gun related homicides.

There does seem to be something wrong with the people and their political/social system if one nation on our planet thinks that guns are a solution to everything, despite the unmatched amount of killing it generates.

We should be careful to directly apply those statistics to other countries/cultures (without corrections for local differences), because we do know (from their specific statistics) that in the USA a disproportionate number of gun violence takes place (see the PostScriptum I've added at the end of this post). That's not only because of the availability (and resulting accidents), but also due to other (social) factors. So statistics that show a ratio between gun vs knife killings in the USA itself should also be educational.

Anyway, in Australia is seems to help to reduce the number of guns that are in free circulation, and people do not really pick another alternative to do the same thing. Maybe they just woke up to their prior insane behavior. Congratulations.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863
Figure 7. on page 6 of the PDF confirms also in the USA, a disproportionate number of firearm related homicides  compared to the much more abundantly available knifes (and blunt objects) as weapon of choice.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 07:40:20 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2016, 08:11:43 am »

An interesting read: Arms by A.J. Somerset
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LesPalenik

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2016, 08:45:27 am »

I like shotguns too, and agree with you on home-defense. This bad boy is under my bed, whilst my Glock is on my night stand ;)

Interestingly, the M4 costs exactly the same as D500 and they both fit under the bed. However, once the initial purchase is made, D500 is less expensive to operate.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2016, 09:31:51 am »

Interestingly, the M4 costs exactly the same as D500 and they both fit under the bed. However, once the initial purchase is made, D500 is less expensive to operate.

Ha, and I bet he shoots with that D500 more often than he needs to use a firearm to provide a meal, or protect from getting killed (especially by a wild animal)... So overall, a much better deal. ;)

While guns are only one of the various issues that are involved in these tragedies, I still find this type of comparison very telling that something is rotten. Maybe it's in the water that people drink ...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:24:28 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2016, 10:39:58 am »

I'm given to the belief that you could largely blame the shops, or, rather, those who run 'em.

In the goode olde days, when men worked and women stayed at home bringing up the family, keeping the home fire burning (presumably only in winter) and the food natural, there was fairly full employment, fewer prisons existed and there was always room within them for those in need of a socially-sponsored vacation.

And hire-purchase didn't exist.

Then things began to change. Buying stuff you couldn't really afford became the norm: everybody got into debt to some degree; women then had to find work in order to rescue the family and keep the bailiffs away; men began to find themselves in competition with women in the workplace and that tended to keep wages down. Other men became afraid of the women who turned out to be more intelligent than they were, and unnatural workplace sexual competiton became a sour note undermining society.

The more women who worked, the greater the stock of working people grew. In one sense more money was being circulated, and so came the opportunity to sell more and raise prices down the ever-lengthening distribution chain to meet the new incomes available for the milking.

Nobody stayed at home anymore - they discovered they couldn't afford to - and so other people found jobs looking after the kids who would otherwise be abandoned, alone with a glass of milk, a sandwich and a tv set. That paying for these minders took away so much of what the newly working spouse could earn didn't seem to be noticed...

Just like the fucking guns, then: the more you have the more intractable the situation becomes. Norman Rockwell wasn't popular by accident: he touched upon the happy lifestyle that almost everybody wanted to have. And they still do, only their own greed and that of those who pander to their appetites has denied it to them. You get what you sow.

Just think: had the attempted and typically Turkish delight - aka coup d'état - happened but a month ago, we'd probably, as Brits, still have the entire European continent ours for the enjoyment of, imminent travelling bogeymen driven far from popular myth and fear.

As I mentioned, reaping and sowing follow an impartial, immutable natural rhythm.

The record crowds of tourists filling the port make me happy to live a klick from the sea. The sewerage system is holding up locally, but appears a little enthusiastic closer to the beach! Happy days! Aren't blue flags reassuringly deceitful?

Rob C

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #188 on: July 16, 2016, 10:52:24 am »

Everyone I know has a firearm.  Many of us are army veterans or hunters.  How many of the people I know have harmed another person with a gun?  Zero.  Why?  Because we're good people (is it wrong to say that?).  Something to think about.  Yes, it's easy to say that it's a people problem, not a gun problem...but it's absolutely true.  People in all parts of the world find ways to murder each other even if they don't have access to a gun.  Also, many people in the world find themselves oppressed by their own pot-bellied dictators because they have no way to defend themselves and their liberty.  Think about the reason why the millions of us that own guns have never use them improperly and you'll know the reason for the gun violence and who's responsible.  One one side, you have hard-working honest people who just want to enjoy life, be prosperous, live in peace and be left alone and those people would never ever have a thought of shooting another human being except in self defense.  One the other side, you have mentally ill people (yes there are many cases of mentally ill people causing deaths by gun) and lazy, corrupt, criminal-minded people who cause problems for the rest of us.  Those people are a burden to society and there's really no place for them in a civilized, peaceful society/republic/democracy.

RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #189 on: July 16, 2016, 11:15:53 am »

While guns are only one of the various issues that are involved in these tragedies, I still find this type of comparison very telling that something is rotten. Maybe it's in the water that people drink ...

Cheers,
Bart

It's a very misleading chart, Bart, and if you don't know that you should. I suspect you do. The most obvious error is that the chart doesn't deal with murders. It deals with "gun deaths," deliberately implying that gun deaths are murders. To have any meaning you'd have to remove suicides from the chart, along with proper self-defense deaths, plus a few other categories I haven't time at the moment to research.

So how DO people in Netherlands commit suicide? Knives? Poison?
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #190 on: July 16, 2016, 11:30:05 am »

Bart, one thing I forgot to mention: When you whittle down the misleading crap in that chart to actual murders you'll still find the U.S. out in front. and there's a reason for that. Thanks to decades of left-wing governments we've managed to create some pretty awful ghettos where most of the gun murders take place. Chicago is a prime example. So far, Netherlands has managed pretty much to avoid that by maintaining a reasonably homogeneous society, which helps to keep clashes to a minimum. But keep watching. If you guys don't solve your refugee problem you're going to see something that will astound you. France is beginning to learn that lesson. You guys had better pay attention. You think people in your country can't get guns, but people in any country can get guns or make them. Ever hear of a zip gun? Check it out. Also, as long as you can get fertilizer it's even easier to make a bomb than it is to make a zip gun. You'd be a hell of a lot better off if your good citizens were armed.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #191 on: July 16, 2016, 11:40:12 am »

It's a very misleading chart, Bart, and if you don't know that you should. I suspect you do. The most obvious error is that the chart doesn't deal with murders. It deals with "gun deaths," deliberately implying that gun deaths are murders.

Hi Russ,

So, a gun death that isn't a murder is okay??? As I've said before, more guns is more accidents as well.

And then there are people who get shot but that live to tell. They are not included in those numbers, so please do not try to only use numbers if they suit your agenda. Denial that there is a problem will never help to solve things.

Quote
So how DO people in Netherlands commit suicide? Knives? Poison?

They apparently are even more creative that the people in the USA, because hardly anyone has a gun they will have to be ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #192 on: July 16, 2016, 11:55:40 am »

Bart, one thing I forgot to mention: When you whittle down the misleading crap in that chart to actual murders you'll still find the U.S. out in front. and there's a reason for that. Thanks to decades of left-wing governments we've managed to create some pretty awful ghettos where most of the gun murders take place. Chicago is a prime example. So far, Netherlands has managed pretty much to avoid that by maintaining a reasonably homogeneous society, which helps to keep clashes to a minimum.

Really? FYI, in 2015 (latest number) some 21.7% (3,665,321 out of 16,900,726) of the population is of non-Dutch decent in the first or second generation (one or both parents are from other countries). Maybe it helps that they also are not allowed to have a gun without permit.

We tend to use different methods of solving issues than with lethal force.

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2016, 12:04:50 pm »

Hi Russ,

So, a gun death that isn't a murder is okay??? As I've said before, more guns is more accidents as well.

And then there are people who get shot but that live to tell. They are not included in those numbers, so please do not try to only use numbers if they suit your agenda. Denial that there is a problem will never help to solve things.

They apparently are even more creative that the people in the USA, because hardly anyone has a gun they will have to be ...

Cheers,
Bart

And there are people who get hit by trucks and live to tell about it. There were a few in France. What's that got to do with anything? And as far as accidents are concerned, accidental vehicle-associated deaths are many multiples of gun deaths but I don't see you suggesting we should eliminate automobiles.

And the question of whether or not a suicide by gun is okay or not sort of bypasses the question. If you're gonna commit suicide you're probably better off doing it with a gun than with a knife or even with poison. It's like the old Ogden Nash advice about seduction: "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker." The only problem with a gun is that it usually leaves a mess for somebody else to clean up. That's just not being a good guy, so I guess Netherlands suicides are just neater people.
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2016, 12:15:30 pm »

Really? FYI, in 2015 (latest number) some 21.7% (3,665,321 out of 16,900,726) of the population is of non-Dutch decent in the first or second generation (one or both parents are from other countries). Maybe it helps that they also are not allowed to have a gun without permit.

We tend to use different methods of solving issues than with lethal force.

Cheers,
Bart

From which other countries? Makes a lot of difference. My oldest son lived in the Netherlands for a while and his wife lived there before they were married. She's fluent in Dutch, and her sister and brother-in-law own the largest English language bookstore in Amsterdam. They visit fairly often. My point is that I have at least a passing understanding of what goes on in Netherlands. You folks simply don't have many of the kinds of disruptive elements we have in the U.S.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #195 on: July 16, 2016, 12:55:07 pm »

And the question of whether or not a suicide by gun is okay or not sort of bypasses the question. If you're gonna commit suicide you're probably better off doing it with a gun than with a knife or even with poison.

You started focusing on suicides, not me.

BTW. Suicide rate per 100,000 people: USA 12.1, Netherlands 8.2.  It seems we are less suicidal (or less effective) as well.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 01:05:13 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #196 on: July 16, 2016, 01:32:23 pm »

From which other countries?

The 21.7 % are split between 55.6 % (2 038 509) from non-Western countries, and 44.4  % (1 626 812) from Western countries.

Something like 21% of all those from foreign origin are Turkish and Moroccan, and an additional large group (13.6 % of all) is from the Caribbean/South American region (Suriname, and the (former) Dutch Antilles), the rest is made up of other smaller groups (making it some 180 different countries of origin in total).

Also do not underestimate that we're the 5th densest populated country (of those with more than 10 million inhabitants) of the world and most are concentrated in Western part of the country, so it is not that we easily get to avoid one another.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 01:41:44 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2016, 01:35:29 pm »

The 21.7 % are split between 55.6 % (2 038 509) from non-Western countries, and 44.4  % (1 626 812) from Western countries.

Something like 21% of all those from foreign origin are Turkish and Moroccan, and an additional large group (13.6 % of all) is from the Caribbean/South American region (Suriname, and the (former) Dutch Antilles), the rest is made up of other smaller groups (making it some 180 different countries of origin in total).

Cheers,
Bart

Let me quote from one of the more enlightened posts on this thread: "If you guys don't solve your refugee problem you're going to see something that will astound you. France is beginning to learn that lesson. You guys had better pay attention. . . You'd be a hell of a lot better off if your good citizens were armed."
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #198 on: July 16, 2016, 01:49:41 pm »

Let me quote from one of the more enlightened posts on this thread: "If you guys don't solve your refugee problem you're going to see something that will astound you. France is beginning to learn that lesson. You guys had better pay attention. . . You'd be a hell of a lot better off if your good citizens were armed."

Funny you'd say/quote that, because most refugees (for humanitarian reasons) that are now coming from the Middle East are the result of the regionally disruptive Iraq war (you know, Bush and WMDs and all that).

Adding weapons in the mix only makes matters more difficult.

And the (cultural/political/financial/ethnographic) situation in France is very different from most other Western-European countries. France is not a model that can be applied to the rest.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 01:58:32 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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RSL

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #199 on: July 16, 2016, 02:02:19 pm »

You can bet there'll be weapons in the mix, Bart. If you think these refugees are all just poor folks run off their land by a local upheaval you're even more gullible than I think you are. For your sake I'll pray that the weapons are just guns.
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