Brexit

[FabienP]

But there's a huge, basic difference: in the UK, at least, you can vote various parties in and out, and that's how it's been for ages.

True, but recipes promoted by the institutional parties have been converging for quite some time, so that I wonder if there is still much choice. One of the reasons why Farage and co. have managed to gain traction is that many people could not tell Tories from Tories light (aka Blairites) apart. The lack of any real choice in an elective democracy means that the same people representing the same interests get re-elected no matter what they do.

The fact that most of the new legislation which matters is passed by unelected bodies (EU, multilateral agreements such as TAFTA) and cannot realistically be amended without permanently leaving the club does not help either.

I wonder what share of democracy will be left to future generations if everything has already been decided by previous governments, compiled into immutable treaties, with daily business being treated by a maintenance-free machine of civil servants.

So the government is supposed to act on the voters' behalf, making the calls, all in the best interests of the population as a whole.

(...)

Now, back to governmental responsibility: those people are supposed to take the right actions on our behalf; putting out a major decision to referendum is crazy, and a betrayal of duty: government should make those decisions because it's there, at the bloody coalface, knows the players, and the circumstances. We, the general public, do not. All we know is the spin, half-truths and downright lies that vested interests trying to unseat government (so they can move in) feed us.

And yet you have enough trust in the general public to be able to elect the right people in government...

As a Swiss citizen who is used to referendums and direct involvment in politics, I do not share your view on this matter. I value the ability given to the people to ultimately reject a law prepared by the parliament. It means that laws are, on the whole, more balanced and less self-serving to the ruling elites. That does not guarantee a perfect record, though. It does not prevent lobbies from being over-represented in parliament, too.

Citizens tend to behave more responsibly when they are regularly asked their opinion on concrete matters. It is true that they can't possibly understand every aspect of what is at stake, but neither can a MP when faced with texts of increasing complexity. They mostly get digests prepared by their assistants or kindly sent by lobbies.

Obviously I do not believe that what works somewhere can be transposed as it is in another country with different political traditions. But I would not reject direct democracy as being unfit for purpose by definition.

Anyway, on a lighter tone, we welcome a new European country outside of EU  . Together with Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein, we will welcome you (again) in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) which you should never have left in 1973. We will also close an eye on the somewhat questionable activities related with tax avoidance & money laundry which take place at the City, Jersey, Guernesey, Isle of Man, etc. We are quite OK with Britain keeping their own currency, too .

Cheers,

Fabien

[Hulyss]

One should first define individuals "manipulated" by populists. There is a large amount of "poors" in UK as well as in the other country. In those poors you also have educated people. We can't know the percentage but there is some. I call them the new poors. People who lost there jobs and are swingged here and here between the job centre, the fishy social associations who suck state money saying "with us you'll find a new job" ... but this is just BS/business and social help is dead since age.

People want to eat, want to be healthy, want their children having food and education. They do not want to be stressed because they do not want this stress bleed on the children. They also want to be happy when they can, when there is some money left at the bank at the end of the month to pay the cinema, a present or a restaurant.

They want the truth about their food because they do not want to be poisoned on the long term. They fear cancer. They want true industry, they want to work but there is no work and industries aren't what they were in the past.

So they are lost. Some say nothing and face the pain in the silence. Some kick their balls and go screaming, voting. They do not vote for an ideology they vote for a change. This is the start and the final act will be physical attack on people who have money. A true segregation warped in the silence and so called "statistics" in the news.

People who have the power and politicians want a change only when it is in their interest. They are doomed. You have the lobbies who freakin don't care about poor or the people; petrol, food, agriculture, military equipments, gays, metal, concrete, gas ... This worth more than simple human lives because the computer said so.

Vote Trump !! Then the world will change, for sure (in what sense I duno).

Edit: And you ! YES YOU ! the guy who think you have no problem because you work and this isn't you concern... you who have the money to buy a camera at 10 grands for leisure, YOU who make you provision only in supermarket, YOU who know nothing because you're formatted ...

FEAR the future, save your soul. Learn the soil, learn the vegetables. Grow some potatoes for your family. Make good relationship with a farmer who have goats, pigs or cows, learn grafting, find some land ... because if a conflict burst starvation will follow.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...The lack of any real choice in an elective democracy...

Thanks to the pyrrhic victory for the PC, which, by definition, can only have ONE correct stance at any given moment. Pyrrhic in the sense that the more they succeed in imposing it, the more backlash, resistance, and rejection in creates.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

This is priceless.

In other words, they should vote again and again until the result is right...

[Hulyss]

One thing for sure is that tomorrow school history books will be kind of complicated.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... if you flunk every test in school, you and your analytical abilities are clearly sub-normal, and your value as a sentient citizen is the equivalent of your mental capacity: zero...

I have to disagree with such a view, Rob. For example:

"I failed 3 times in college. I applied 30 times to get a job but I was always rejected. When KFC came to China for the first time, we were 24 to apply and I was the only one dismissed. I wanted to go into the police but I was the only one not accepted. I applied 10 times to Harvard University in the US and I was rejected. " 

Jack Ma, Alibaba Creator and 22nd Worlds richest man according to Fortune and according to Forbes 2015 list with $29.8 billion net worth.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

An overview how European press is commenting:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36641827

From Le Figaro:

"[EU] ... to rebuild itself through a new treaty that must be ratified by referendums in all member states. ... They should offer real protection against the pressures of globalisation, from "multicultural naivety, dogmatic free trade, and abstract universalism" to "uncontrolled immigration, persistent unemployment, and a squeezed middle class".

[Justinr]

Here is a little realism from the Guardian at last, it tells of the decay and poverty struck Britain in the 80's and never went away despite the pretence that it did -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

[Justinr]

An overview how European press is commenting:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36641827

From Le Figaro:

"[EU] ... to rebuild itself through a new treaty that must be ratified by referendums in all member states. ... They should offer real protection against the pressures of globalisation, from "multicultural naivety, dogmatic free trade, and abstract universalism" to "uncontrolled immigration, persistent unemployment, and a squeezed middle class".

Well at least we know where that bastion of equality, free speech and balance that is the BBC lies -

The prospect of Brexit-style referendums in other European countries is a major concern of European commentators today,

Why should the BBC agree that other referendums are a 'concern'? They are there to report the news not help shape it so one can only conclude that the establishment is running scared of a quiet revolution. Violent ones they can handle, just lock a kid up for helping himself to a bottle of water, but when change is demanded via the ballot box then they are unprepared and the stress is showing.

[kers]

Yesterday the great English football team lost from Iceland...
Iceland was simply better.

[drmike]

Here is a little realism from the Guardian at last, it tells of the decay and poverty struck Britain in the 80's and never went away despite the pretence that it did -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

It didn't go away for some but had he visited the surrounding modern business parks etc. he might have formed a different view. Wolverhampton for example is transformed from the place I visited in the 80s and 90s. Walsall perhaps less so.

[stamper]

If you want to see one reason for that interest, Robert, check the Dow Jones Industrial Average for Friday and today. What's happening to the UK and EU has an impact on the world.

I accept that it impacts on the world but if the British people had trouble understanding what was going on then how do outsiders understand? As for Australia being left behind by joining the EU then that was tough. Europe was a bigger market and Britain, along with other countries, had exported more than enough of our talented citizens to bulid up there fledgling economy.

[Justinr]

It didn't go away for some but had he visited the surrounding modern business parks etc. he might have formed a different view. Wolverhampton for example is transformed from the place I visited in the 80s and 90s. Walsall perhaps less so.

I suppose that all part of this 'be positive' spin that has suddenly emerged within the Zeitgeist, but the follow up is never mentioned and that is ''cos I'm alright Jack'.

[drmike]

I don't understand the point you're making Justin. Are you suggesting that I'm making a positive spin on a bad situation? I'm not sure if you visit the West Midlands for business but there are some really dynamic companies there - for example there's a company who make the locks for filing cabinets (and have done so for at least 100 years) and they are cheaper and better than China. They can see off all competition because they have a skilled workforce in a modern factory. Travel 8 miles or less and you'll get to a god awful town centre which is as that article describes made up of people who, in my opinion, are not grasping the opportunities that are there because it's change.

Then again I have probably misunderstood your point

[Rob C]

I have to disagree with such a view, Rob. For example:

Oh I know, Slobodan, the exception, however proves the rule. Even within the local microcosm of my own schooldays: we had such a scholastic dodo and he failed everything, and then later on owned a metal pipes factory. Young self-made millionaire. I also knew the opposite: six Highers (top levels achievable in Scottish schools of the day), absolutely no idea of where he wanted to go with his life. No idea what became of him.

These 'uncertificated' meteoric people are exceptional - even had they passed the clear hurdles that formal, basic tests represent, they would have gone far further on to beat the rest. But they aren't the folks that are the problem: the problem people are the terminally unemployable, not the unemployed. Big difference that no social engineering and political rebranding can disguise. They always were and ever will be.

Just watched a brief interview with the 'grass roots' backing Corbyn: to say those people are realistic is scary. Not only don't they give a damn if their party is electable, they delight in its ultra-left ideals, a Utopia of 'workers' making the rules, working the system and running the world. Christ, people that don't even know how to make themselves a good living are going to run countries!

The thing is, they crave a Communism that has failed everywhere; look at their leaders' political histories through the decades - they pretty much all had an apprenticeship sailing under the red banner. The smarter ones understood soon enough that they coudn't win upfront, so the alternative strategy was to do it in disguise. Look at Spain: a Civil War that was nothing but a fight between the right and the Communists, except that the latter, in this case, fought under their real flag. Where did their figurehead leader flee?  Right, she went to Russia.

And they are not all fools, today's warriors; in fact, they come from all class levels and even universities: England has had its fair share of traitors making hasty departures to mother Moscow. The 50s was a hotbed of revelations and exits. How to explain these people? You really can't; it's in their heads, and I doubt that even they could explain themselves without resorting to some standard text about equality etc. etc. In a way, I can believe that they are sincere. And that makes it even more worrisome.

Britain hardly needs foreigners to do it harm.

[Rob C]

It didn't go away for some but had he visited the surrounding modern business parks etc. he might have formed a different view. Wolverhampton for example is transformed from the place I visited in the 80s and 90s. Walsall perhaps less so.

I remember going to Kodak's plant in Hemel Hempstead for their 24 hr Kodachrome processing service on the return legs of my trips abroad to shoot. We'd spend the night at the Posthouse Hotel, then part of the Forte Group, and it was always packed with business people looking 'and acting' very successful! The day's wait for the films would be spent walking around and admiring the clear signs of thrusting activity and wealth generation, not something that we drew all that strongly from the northern air the next day when we flew up to Glasgow. Oh, don't get me wrong: Glasgow has amazingly wealthy people too!

In a way, I think that success encourages more of the same. It was partly what I now believe to have been the magic of the 60s: people became stars overnight, and that engendered the confidence that yes, you too could pull it off if you but tried, and sometimes it happened. But you need both the personal desire and the environment. Without the magazines, the smart city-centre shops etc. there would have been no grounds for the energizing optimism. And perhaps that's where the great problem begins; living in some squalid, rundown northern town, from whence can come the belief that you can? If the rain and the grime don't kill you, you'll do it for yourself.

Living here in a southern backwater, I see many of the people have very little and many a lot; however, they mix freely, all seem to be capable of living together without agro. Perhaps because it's just a pair of villages? I've known a local builder/developer since we came here in '81. He's second or third generation, and has built several massive, and massively expensive developments; he drops in for a beer at the same basic bars where I usually lunch. Anybody chats with him, he dresses as simply as the rest of us; he never drove expensive wheels. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but I dont know of anywhere in the UK where I'd run into the same social ease. Maybe it's just what the basic meaning of south really is: enjoy what you have and get on with it?

[Ray]

It would be interesting to know the percentage of the workforce in the U.K. and Europe (and the world in general) that are engaged in the actual production, design, and delivery of all the goods that we consume, and which contribute to our prosperity.

I suspect it's a rather small percentage, certainly less than 50%.

I get the impression that most of the workforce is engaged in monitoring our behaviour, creating and modifying laws and rules, enforcing such laws, and distributing the total wealth to the population according to yet more rules.

[BernardLanguillier]

By the same token, Bernard, shouldn't we equally assume that on the remain side "there are millions of less educated ones who have been sadly impacted by populist proposals playing on people's fears"? Or are we once again assuming that it is only "my" side that has a monopoly on truth and rational decision making?

For a start because 2 key arguments of the Leave side have already been confirmed in the past 3 days by those very guys as a bunch of lies (amount of money ransfered from UK to EU and the possbility to close borders to immigration) while all the negative forecast of the stay camp in case of Brexit are starting to occur already?

There may have been some "populist" proposals made by the stay camp as well, and I am sure that some people were impacted by those as well, but do we still call "populist" the mention of a real issue. I don't think we do.

Cheers,
Bernard

[drmike]

Living here in a southern backwater, I see many of the people have very little and many a lot; however, they mix freely, all seem to be capable of living together without agro. Perhaps because it's just a pair of villages? I've known a local builder/developer since we came here in '81. He's second or third generation, and has built several massive, and massively expensive developments; he drops in for a beer at the same basic bars where I usually lunch. Anybody chats with him, he dresses as simply as the rest of us; he never drove expensive wheels. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but I dont know of anywhere in the UK where I'd run into the same social ease. Maybe it's just what the basic meaning of south really is: enjoy what you have and get on with it?

I'd say my village in rural Worcestershire is the same. We have extremes of wealth and dare I say sons of the soil who are very badly paid. We all get along just fine and village events are usually supported by all. The local pub is 3 miles away and they all bundle down there. It's not as it was 20 years ago as some people of all types just don't want to be part of the village. Equally my friend's tennis club is the same in the local (small) city and also from I gather a London client's tennis club. Maybe tennis clubs are great equalisers

Mike

[drmike]

For a start because 2 key arguments of the Leave side have already been confirmed in the past 3 days by those very guys as a bunch of lies (amount of money ransfered from UK to EU and the possbility to close borders to immigration) while all the negative forecast of the stay camp in case of Brexit are starting to occur already?

There may have been some "populist" proposals made by the stay camp as well, and I am sure that some people were impacted by those as well, but do we still call "populist" the mention of a real issue. I don't think we do.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard forgive me for interjecting but your view is possibly too short term on the financial consequences of Brexit, give it a couple of weeks and some political stability.

I have just listened to Angela someone an MP and leading Brexit member explain that while 350 million was possibly misleading it wasn't wrong per se. She said if I ask you how much do you earn - do you reply before or after tax? Usually before and that's roughly what they did. However, I think it was a cheap slogan and furthermore they are retracting their headline claims to greater and lesser extents. I think many people were misled, but that's democracy. Remain did not expose the half truths and lies well enough. Or perhaps some just didn't want to hear.

I voted remain so we could work within the EU to make it better and Lord knows it needs to be better.

Mike