Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 57   Go Down

Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 341787 times)

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2355
Re: Brexit
« Reply #160 on: June 27, 2016, 04:54:01 am »

Jeremy,

I thought I'd already made that clear. The referendum is not binding ...

You did indeed, and it's also the reason I preceded my very first post on this thread with 'These are early days, and UK exit is anything but a done deal.'

... it's no longer as simple as the PM deciding that we'll have one. Section 2 of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011, enacted as I recall at Nick Clegg's insistence, renders calling a premature general election really quite tricky. It couldn't be done with the cooperation of the Labour Party, or to be more accurate the members of the parliamentary Labour party.

I'd refer to you Geoffrey Robinson, writing today in your favourite rag, The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet   or
http://gu.com/p/4mynz?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

That really would involve turkeys voting for an early Christmas (to quote Jim Callaghan).

That's exactly what we're talking about and with one sacking and 20 resignations of senior shadow cabinet members within the last 24 hours , added to another 18 more junior positions, who would definitively exclude it ?

You may refer to the petition calling for a second referendum as 'childish silliness', but with Michael Heseltine joining the list of signatories and at least three other senior Tories mooted to follow him, I'd suggest it's slightly more than that.

"(Heseltine) ... says the House of Commons is broadly supportive of staying in the EU. Before it voted to leave the EU, he says there would need to be a second referendum, or an election. During the referendum it was not explained what life outside the EU would look like. Once we know the answer to those questions, the public are entitled to have another say. "


Manoli
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 09:48:48 am by Manoli »
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #161 on: June 27, 2016, 04:56:00 am »

That Hitler EU comparison of Boris Johnson might not have helped, just saying...

Who might it not have helped?
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #162 on: June 27, 2016, 05:12:52 am »

Many thanks for this sensible post. There is chronic inequality and neglect here in Britain and when you add that people are fed up with very remote politicians pushing them around, not to mention bureaucrats in the EU who hold absolutely no elected office in the UK, the result of this referendum isn't very surprising. It's simply saying that a political process without democratic consent ain't gonna work. And this from one who voted to stay in the EU, on the grounds that helping them sort themselves out was preferable to walking away.

In addition, I think folks need to realize that this is essentially unravelling a bureaucratic/legal arrangement. Trade is always pragmatic and will continue to flow through and around political obstacles. The future in not in Europe, a very narrow focus, it is now global and with a huge pull towards Asia and Asia-Pacific. A country re-positioning itself towards this new reality and away from an obsession with "Europe" alone is no bad thing.

I would agree with that, the EU has outlived its usefulness in its present form and in its mad dash for expansion it gathered more power to itself rather than ensure there was proper representation and collective and transparent decision making. It is utterly pointless everybody pointing their finger at the thickos in Britain who, it would appear, constitute 52% of the electorate, Brussels has brought this upon themselves and it is not the UK that faces an uncertain future but the EU as it is now structured.

Behind all the grandstanding of Junckers et al I think there are three basic fears

1. The undemocratic apparatus for rule will be questioned like never before.

2. Recognition that countries can take back control of their destinies will fuel demands for referendums in other states.

3. The game is up for latest attempt at building a Europe wide empire. We have had many in the past that have failed, why should this one be any different?
Logged

Hulyss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 734
    • H.Bowman
Re: Brexit
« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2016, 05:46:35 am »

Meanwhile, in Japan...

Logged
Kind Regards -  Hulyss Bowman | hulyssbowman.com |

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Brexit
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2016, 05:57:26 am »

Meanwhile, in Japan...

That's the kind of stuff I am dealing with on a daily basis!

Cheers,
Bernard

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2016, 06:00:03 am »

I should clear up an assertion I made earlier when I said that Junckers was not elected. He was in fact elected by the European council which comprises the heads of state/government of the member countries. Although it can be argued that that he suffered a vote to attain the position it was hardly the most direct election with no apparatus by which the person on the street can have any practical influence over his appointment.

The more you look into the murky world of EU governance the more shockingly anti democratic it becomes.
Logged

tom b

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
    • http://tombrown.id.au
Re: Brexit
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2016, 06:23:16 am »

"Many thanks for this sensible post. There is chronic inequality and neglect here in Britain and when you add that people are fed up with very remote politicians pushing them around, not to mention bureaucrats in the EU who hold absolutely no elected office in the UK, the result of this referendum isn't very surprising".

How rich, Britain has been imposing its will on the Commonwealth for hundreds of years. One million people died and ten million were displaced because of British actions in India during the partition.

Cheers,
Logged
Tom Brown

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25123
Re: Brexit
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2016, 06:59:13 am »

Derb on the Brexit -

http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/rule-britannia-on-brexit-the-immigrant-and-geezer-votes-anddonald-j-trump/


That's a very interesting link.

Fom my point of view, I feel vindicated: as I suggested, it's all been about the problems of political correctness preventing the required debates from taking place.

Had these been 'socially acceptable' to hold, I'm certan that a lot of trouble would have been prevented and that the economics would have won out, that pragmatic solutions would have resolved most issues. All we got instead was an ever-inflating pile growing beneath the carpet.

I was in the bank today (Spain) and the teller shook his head and told me that Brexit has seriously affected the Spanish voting pattern - they just had their national election this weekend. It isn't going to stop in the UK.

Genie's gone.

Rob C

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25123
Re: Brexit
« Reply #168 on: June 27, 2016, 07:32:37 am »

"Many thanks for this sensible post. There is chronic inequality and neglect here in Britain and when you add that people are fed up with very remote politicians pushing them around, not to mention bureaucrats in the EU who hold absolutely no elected office in the UK, the result of this referendum isn't very surprising".

How rich, Britain has been imposing its will on the Commonwealth for hundreds of years. One million people died and ten million were displaced because of British actions in India during the partition.

Cheers,


I was living there at the time.

What you must offer us, now - with the benefits of sixty-nine years of hindsight - is a solution (yours) of how better to have departed a country like that which the sub-continent was, stop hundreds of millions of adherents of two basically competitive and antagonistic religions, living cheek-by-jowel in mutual hatred, from launching one of the greatest religious wars on Earth. (Think Belfast magnified beyond comprehension.)

Considering where one of those religions finds itself today, in absolute mutal hatred with it's fellows with a slightly different point of view within the same faith, I think 1947 was sorted out in the best - if only way - possible. The aftermath of what followed wasn't brilliant for the departing powers, leading to the pressures that have built up in the UK ever since.

If anything, the problem has been, as now, that Britain is not self-centred enough to fight its corners strongly enough; that's a weakness that comes with being a 'gentleman'; the street fighter just kicks your balls whilst you square up. Within the EU, nobody was kicking Germany around... and it wasn't hoofing us in the testes either, despite what some of our misinformed zenos might think.

Rob

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #169 on: June 27, 2016, 07:43:30 am »


I was living there at the time.

What you must offer us, now - with the benefits of sixty-nine years of hindsight - is a solution (yours) of how better to have departed a country like that which the sub-continent was, stop hundreds of millions of adherents of two basically competitive and antagonistic religions, living cheek-by-jowel in mutual hatred, from launching one of the greatest religious wars on Earth. (Think Belfast magnified beyond comprehension.)

Considering where one of those religions finds itself today, in absolute mutal hatred with it's fellows with a slightly different point of view within the same faith, I think 1947 was sorted out in the best - if only way - possible. The aftermath of what followed wasn't brilliant for the departing powers, leading to the pressures that have built up in the UK ever since.

If anything, the problem has been, as now, that Britain is not self-centred enough to fight its corners strongly enough; that's a weakness that comes with being a 'gentleman'; the street fighter just kicks your balls whilst you square up. Within the EU, nobody was kicking Germany around... and it wasn't hoofing us in the testes either, despite what some of our misinformed zenos might think.

Rob

I wonder if you might care to address your sad fantasies directly to the "misinformed zeno" you have in mind?
Logged

tom b

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
    • http://tombrown.id.au
Re: Brexit
« Reply #170 on: June 27, 2016, 08:37:16 am »

"How rich, Britain has been imposing its will on the Commonwealth for hundreds of years. One million people died and ten million were displaced because of British actions in India during the partition".

WW2 left a huge scar on the British population. Twice as many Indians died during "The Partition". The British have made it clear that they only think of their own self interest.

Britain joining the EU had a very negative impact on Australian trade with Britain. Hey, did they care, did they even notice?
Logged
Tom Brown

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2016, 09:03:42 am »

"How rich, Britain has been imposing its will on the Commonwealth for hundreds of years. One million people died and ten million were displaced because of British actions in India during the partition".

WW2 left a huge scar on the British population. Twice as many Indians died during "The Partition". The British have made it clear that they only think of their own self interest.

Britain joining the EU had a very negative impact on Australian trade with Britain. Hey, did they care, did they even notice?

Can that not be said of every country in some way, are you saying that the EU will suffer without the presence of Britain?





Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Brexit
« Reply #172 on: June 27, 2016, 09:38:19 am »

A famous anarchist quote.

“If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.”
― Emma Goldman

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #173 on: June 27, 2016, 09:42:16 am »

A famous anarchist quote.

“If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.”
― Emma Goldman

Interesting that, there are more than a few on the remain side who are rather disparaging about the voters involved in Brexit. I'm sure there are some who would like to confine the activity to nice middle class property owning males to ensure they get the right result, pretty much as things were during the days of empire in fact. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 09:51:11 am by Justinr »
Logged

Zorki5

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 486
    • AOLib
Re: Brexit
« Reply #174 on: June 27, 2016, 10:07:50 am »

"(Heseltine) ... says the House of Commons is broadly supportive of staying in the EU. Before it voted to leave the EU, he says there would need to be a second referendum, or an election. During the referendum it was not explained what life outside the EU would look like. Once we know the answer to those questions, the public are entitled to have another say. "

This is priceless.

In other words, they should vote again and again until the result is right.

I was going to congratulate Brits over here with their ability to decide their future for themselves (for better or worse), but I guess I should wait with that...
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #175 on: June 27, 2016, 10:13:25 am »

This is priceless.

In other words, they should vote again and again until the result is right.

I was going to congratulate Brits over here with their ability to decide their future for themselves (for better or worse), but I guess I should wait with that...

That is precisely what happened in Ireland over the Lisbon treaty, but even the EU realises that it can't push the UK about like it did Ireland and later Greece. Let it be a lesson to anyone who thinks the EU and it's supporters are benign and enlightened.
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Brexit
« Reply #176 on: June 27, 2016, 10:17:45 am »

It is surprising the number of non Brits who are commenting on the situation?

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Brexit
« Reply #177 on: June 27, 2016, 10:22:14 am »

It is surprising the number of non Brits who are commenting on the situation?

Why is that surprising?

The very topic is about the interface between UK and world, besides the Brexit has impacts on the rest of Europe as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #178 on: June 27, 2016, 10:24:29 am »

It is surprising the number of non Brits who are commenting on the situation?

There are at least two on here who are British but not currently living there. I'm one of them.
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Brexit
« Reply #179 on: June 27, 2016, 10:26:10 am »

There are at least two on here who are British but not currently living there. I'm one of them.

I was thinking more about the US, Russia and Australia.
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 57   Go Up