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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 341788 times)

Zorki5

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #180 on: June 27, 2016, 10:35:14 am »

It is surprising the number of non Brits who are commenting on the situation?

I can't speak for all non Brits, of course, but for me interest (apart from general curiosity) is in whether we do have a shining example of Democracy or not. Believe it or not, this is quite practical a question: it would be nice to be able to tell a supporter of the current ruling party in Russia: "See? This is how it's done!"

What I see time and time again is not encouraging though, to say the least. Establishment's control of the public in the West is almost as tight as in Russia -- it's just so much subtler, up to the point of being unnoticed by the majority.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #181 on: June 27, 2016, 10:36:46 am »

I was thinking more about the US, Russia and Australia.

As BL suggests it is a reflection of the Role the UK has played in the world in the past and still does so today. It may also be a recognition that the great European project is stumbling, the various crises that the euro has suffered over the past few years has suggested that not all has been well for some time but this vote simply cannot be swept away with various dodgy dealings and complex financial arrangements designed to paper over the cracks.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #182 on: June 27, 2016, 10:40:29 am »

I can't speak for all non Brits, of course, but for me interest (apart from general curiosity) is in whether we do have a shining example of Democracy or not. Believe it or not, this is quite practical a question: it would be nice to be able to tell a supporter of the current ruling party in Russia: "See? This is how it's done!"

What I see time and time again is not encouraging though, to say the least. Establishment's control of the public in the West is almost as tight as in Russia -- it's just so much subtler, up to the point of being unnoticed by the majority.

+1

And it is those who would consider themselves the better educated half of the population who fail to see how tightly news and opinion is managed, which rather leaves me to suspect they are not quite as bright as they would like to think they are.
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RSL

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #183 on: June 27, 2016, 11:09:55 am »

It is surprising the number of non Brits who are commenting on the situation?

If you want to see one reason for that interest, Robert, check the Dow Jones Industrial Average for Friday and today. What's happening to the UK and EU has an impact on the world.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #184 on: June 27, 2016, 11:40:29 am »

"How rich, Britain has been imposing its will on the Commonwealth for hundreds of years. One million people died and ten million were displaced because of British actions in India during the partition".

WW2 left a huge scar on the British population. Twice as many Indians died during "The Partition". The British have made it clear that they only think of their own self interest.

Britain joining the EU had a very negative impact on Australian trade with Britain. Hey, did they care, did they even notice?


Yes, some did, myself for one: The International Wool Secretariat (IWS) was one of my best clients via it's Edinburgh office. It ended up as a withered branch on my business tree thanks to the problems that came along within the wool trade...

At that time, I did lots of shoots abroad for fashion manufacturers, such trips often being partly funded by textile fibre manufacturers like Monsanto; they, too, took a dive and that more from the economic downturn of the 70s and the impact of gas prices within the United States. In my experience of commercial l¡fe, there seems always to have been an economic downturn. I remember reading in the BJP magazine during the 80s an article by a guy who left London and went to Norfolk, I think, and started a cards design and photo studio as escape from photography in the capital. According to him, and I think he's pretty much of an age with me, the photographic business had been on a slide ever since he began in it. I'm sure I remember his new venture as being called something like Redeye, or a similar; maybe some old BJP reader may remember?

(I used to talk about a Golden Age of photography; perhaps it's really a frame of mind, based on one's own rise and decline, rapid or slow, but pretty much inevitable as your juices run ever lower amd the hunger declines.)

NZ lamb also took a mighty hit. As with everything, some areas win and some lose, in every deal. There is neither love nor mercy in commerce; two of my biggest mistakes took the form of allowing second-chances and thinking old relationships meant something.

And it didn't have to be the EU that caused a local problem: within my litle bailiwick, work once available dried away due to the above factors, yes, but also because of the attractions of London. How can you deny the pull to a local photography buyer of being hosted down there by some studio or PR company and taken off to Tramps, Annabel's or wherever? No contest... It can work the other way, too: an ex-Harrods boss was shipped up to the House of Fraser group's flagship store in Glasgow to troubleshoot, and I took along my portfolio. He told me it matched what he got in London, and that led to a lot of fashion advertising photography work. Job done, he was sent off to do more of the same in Ireland, and that was also the end of the House of Fraser photography in Scotland. Not just for me - I wasn't replaced.

No wonder I slid myself sideways into calendar design and production!

tom b

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #185 on: June 27, 2016, 11:57:52 am »

If you want to see one reason for that interest, Robert, check the Dow Jones Industrial Average for Friday and today. What's happening to the UK and EU has an impact on the world.

"The selloff on Friday eroded $2.08 trillion in market capitalization globally - the biggest one-day loss ever, according to Standard & Poor's Dow Jones Indices, trumping the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy during the 2008 financial crisis".

In online papers that I read it was hardly noticeable. Luckily I'm financially secure. Good luck to you Brits.

Cheers,

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Tom Brown

Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #186 on: June 27, 2016, 12:00:08 pm »

Fascinating topic.
From April 8 Financial Times
The great Brexit kabuki — a masterclass in political theatre
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tom b

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #187 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:30 pm »

I don't know if I missed this link.

Yes Minister

A great TV series.

Cheers
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Tom Brown

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2016, 12:20:02 pm »

I can't speak for all non Brits, of course, but for me interest (apart from general curiosity) is in whether we do have a shining example of Democracy or not. Believe it or not, this is quite practical a question: it would be nice to be able to tell a supporter of the current ruling party in Russia: "See? This is how it's done!"

What I see time and time again is not encouraging though, to say the least. Establishment's control of the public in the West is almost as tight as in Russia -- it's just so much subtler, up to the point of being unnoticed by the majority.

But there's a huge, basic difference: in the UK, at least, you can vote various parties in and out, and that's how it's been for ages.

Part of the responsibility of an elected government - no, all of it, it to assume responsibility on behalf of the voters. It's impossible for sixty million voices to speak in unison or coherently at the same time: the noise would not only be deafening, but bedlam. So the government is supposed to act on the voters' behalf, making the calls, all in the best interests of the population as a whole.

And there the rub: that population is not a homogeneous whole. There are infinitely varying levels of ability, aspiration, education, realistic possibilites and hope. This will ever be so because people are not created equal, despite the dreamer's dreams. I lag way behind what some of my classmates achieved; I had not their interests nor they mine; some became lawyers, some architects, doctors, think of a classy number and they got there. I became a snapper, because that's where my ability and desire lay. You can't blame birth, education or anything much else: it all boils down to the individual and how he/she thinks or does not think. Period.

Now, back to governmental responsibility: those people are supposed to take the right actions on our behalf; putting out a major decision to referendum is crazy, and a betrayal of duty: government should make those decisions because it's there, at the bloody coalface, knows the players, and the circumstances. We, the general public, do not. All we know is the spin, half-truths and downright lies that vested interests trying to unseat government (so they can move in) feed us.

In this instance, the outers fed the fears of foreign competiton in the workplace, of a zillion Turks swimming into the south of England with a jihadist under each arm. Those wise men with the buses decorated with images of marching refugees were glib with tales of an additional 350 million pounds being regularly poured into the sacred British cow of National Health, which would be nice were it true or even possible, but turned out to be the first 'fact' about which they then went on to say whoops! that was a mistake! No 350 million quid, sorry! But hey, you've just voted yourselves a new holiday: Independence Day! Rejoice, brothers, we've got our country back, so that's all right!

And people believed them, in their millions. Which is why despite all the bleats to the contrary, you can't trust the great unwashed to know what's right: they simply have not the information. I would far rather fly with an expert who might make a mistake than with a guy who hasn't the slightest idea what gives.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2016, 12:25:15 pm »

Fascinating topic.
From April 8 Financial Times
The great Brexit kabuki — a masterclass in political theatre

Good one, Chris, and now it's come home to roost.

Rob C

Jim Pascoe

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2016, 01:25:19 pm »

Another Brexit tonight?

Now that would be embarrassing.....

Jim
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Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2016, 01:27:13 pm »

Fascinating topic.
From April 8 Financial Times
The great Brexit kabuki — a masterclass in political theatre

This is a follow up comment to that article, published the day after the referendum. Can't find the link, so attached below.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #192 on: June 27, 2016, 01:40:59 pm »

This is a follow up comment to that article, published the day after the referendum. Can't find the link, so attached below.

Yep, wait 'til after the summer and cooler heads will prevail and as I keep pointing out it's the EU's problem as much as Britain's despite their attempts to hide behind Junckers bluster, he might have sobered up by then as well -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #193 on: June 27, 2016, 01:47:14 pm »

Derb on the Brexit -

http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/rule-britannia-on-brexit-the-immigrant-and-geezer-votes-anddonald-j-trump/


More Derb -

"There is at least some scope for verbal ingenuity here. A listener passed on the following, which he found on the web somewhere.

Brexit could be followed by Grexit, Departugal, Italeave, Czechout, Oustria, Finish, Slovakout, Latervia, Bygium. Only Remainia will stay.

Not bad, though “Oustria” suggests an involuntary exit.

It’s too bad Ecuador isn’t in the EU: their capital city is already headed in the right direction."


http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/brexit-follow-ups-if-the-wrong-result-is-returned-the-eu-will-ask-for-a-re-run-etc/




Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2016, 02:43:27 pm »

I agree Rob C that there was a lot of spin on both sides before the vote.  The same happens before a general election.  But what do you suggest?  Have a special class of people, unelected, to run the country for the rest of us serfs.  Wasn't Britain like that at one time? 


I also note that here in America,  similar voices on the left and on the right are just as disgusted with the cozy relationship between the media,  crony capitalists and politicians.   That's why we are so interested in seeing the ordinary British people stick it to insiders.  There are a lot more people who support outsiders Sanders and Trump then the ultimate insider Clinton.  Of course the media is totally in Clinton's corner.    So the rich and poor will gain and the middle class will continue to get it in the neck.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #195 on: June 27, 2016, 02:45:30 pm »

There are certainly hundreds of thousands of educated people in favor of Brexit for reasonnable reasons, but my prerogative is that there are millions of less educated ones who have been sadly impacted by populist proposals playing on people's fears.

Those are the same people who have had little exposure to the cosmopolitan and vivid Europe I know where cultural differences generate opportunities.

Cheers,
Bernard

By the same token, Bernard, shouldn't we equally assume that on the remain side "there are millions of less educated ones who have been sadly impacted by populist proposals playing on people's fears"? Or are we once again assuming that it is only "my" side that has a monopoly on truth and rational decision making?

As for "the cosmopolitan and vivid Europe," we ain't talking about French bistros and Belgium chocolate, but about sleeper cells and a civilization that is anything but cosmopolitan.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2016, 02:50:37 pm »

No, it 's a YouGov voting profile - which incidentally sems to very accurately reflect who voted for what.

There is absolutely no way to "very accurately reflect who voted for what," as voting is confidential.

What that is based on are exit polls, whose accuracy is just as good as the pre-voting polls (which indicated a win for the remain).

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2016, 03:11:34 pm »

Really?  I've been looking for one and haven't found that person yet (maybe you want to volunteer?).  Hank Paulson, a life long Republican and Secretary of the Treasury under Bush II, has an op-ed in tomorrow's Washington Post announcing he is voting for Hilary Clinton and urging other Republicans to do the same!!  http://tinyurl.com/zytbmbn


I appreciate you including me in the highly educated. As for you "haven't found yet" a highly educated Trump supporter, it is worth noting that, thanks to the liberals' social terrorism, very few are willing to openly declare their support. Come November (and secret voting), however...

Anecdotal evidence (Paulson) isn't really a valid argument. Now that you mention him, it is equally worth noting that:

Hank Paulson = Wall Street
Hillary Clinton = Wall Street

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2016, 03:58:17 pm »

I agree Rob C that there was a lot of spin on both sides before the vote.  The same happens before a general election.  But what do you suggest?  Have a special class of people, unelected, to run the country for the rest of us serfs.  Wasn't Britain like that at one time? 


I've suggested before, ony half in jest, that the vote should also be dovetailed into education. In effect, if you flunk every test in school, you and your analytical abilities are clearly sub-normal, and your value as a sentient citizen is the equivalent of your mental capacity: zero.

Just this evening I was watching France24's Debate  (19.15 hrs European time. Sorry, six-fifteen in England. Monday through Fridays.) To my horror, at the end of it, there's a news update and the English girl reading that part showed a report of a recent event in England, where 'business cards' have been pushed through letter boxes, written in both English and Polish, telling the "Polish vermin" to go home. Imagine being a Pole, legally in a foreign land, and your kid runs to the letterbox and picks up that card. Jesus Christ. This is the rabble that some think deserve the vote, that requires better representation, and forms part of some downtrodden mass. It deserves the whip.

"Have a special class of people, unelected, to run the country for the rest of us serfs.  Wasn't Britain like that at one time?"

Why do you associate yourself with "us serfs" when you are clearly not anything remotely like that? 

As for Britain being governed like that at one time, in effect it still is, much like everywhere else: it's now called political parties and we do elect them, but don't often get what we thought we'd elected... We hire them to do our political thinking for us, and by and large, it's the best arrangement we can hope to have. Of course it's not guaranteed to work to everyone's satisfaction: look at the States: the elected head honcho wants to stop lunatics from being able to buy machine guns, but the legally elected 'opposition' says no, far better to allow lunatics to buy machine guns that not to allow lunatics to buy machine guns. It's enshrined in an historical document written in a totally different era but supposed to be just as applicable today. Right.

The first thing that came to mind as I watched the item about the 'cards' was the Ku Klux Klan. The next thing was Hitler and the Jews. This is part of lovely, cosmopolitan Britain today.

Rob C

« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:01:44 pm by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #199 on: June 27, 2016, 04:19:08 pm »

By the same token, Bernard, shouldn't we equally assume that on the remain side "there are millions of less educated ones who have been sadly impacted by populist proposals playing on people's fears"? Or are we once again assuming that it is only "my" side that has a monopoly on truth and rational decision making?

As for "the cosmopolitan and vivid Europe," we ain't talking about French bistros and Belgium chocolate, but about sleeper cells and a civilization that is anything but cosmopolitan.

Thing is, the relevance to Brexit is pointless: Britain already has those people: they were often born there; no need to worry about importing more, our own know the territory very well. Cutting our own throats is worse than having jihadists do it for us. In my opinion, we have peformed the political equivalent, making the advantages membership gave us a thing of the past. Sure, trade deals of one sort or another will be worked out, some lives will change and others not. What's certain is that the tabloids will crow, the mugs will buy 'em and the money will still roll in for as long as it lasts; then, when that topic fades away, the next b¡g thing will be created and more printed crap will litter the sidewalks, covering the logos on the empty beer cans. You see? Always a bright side!

And the 'dispossesed and huddled masses' will see no change whatsoever.
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