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Author Topic: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D  (Read 43136 times)

synn

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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2016, 12:45:00 pm »

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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2016, 12:54:31 pm »

Or we might make a suitable numerical range based on some anchor point (e.g. 24x36mm) and assuming that doubling the sensor area improves the potential results by one abstract "unit", as an alternative to the "crop factor". On the other hand, buyers might object to buying a "-4 size" camera.

area = [3*2.4 8.6*6.6 13.2*8.8 22.2*14.8 24*36 33*44 41*54 60*90 200*250];
anchor = 24*36;
log2(area./anchor)

ans =

   -6.9069   -3.9281   -2.8949   -1.3949         0    0.7489    1.3576    2.6439    5.8548

Instead of using the log2 this way, it might be easier to set eg. 24x36=0= F4 and then use photographic stops eg. 36x48= F2.8

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2016, 01:08:51 pm »

I'm an Octave maintainer.
Author of the mac emulation port.
http://wiki.octave.org/Octave_for_MacOS_X#Octave_server_VM_installer_for_OSX_10.10_Yosemite_and_OS_X_10.11_El_Capitan

Great, I am facing issues with 10.11.5! Total freeze when trying to display a simple plot! ;)

Fortunately I use it mostly on Win, but still...

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2016, 01:46:16 pm »

Great, I am facing issues with 10.11.5! Total freeze when trying to display a simple plot! ;)

Fortunately I use it mostly on Win, but still...

Cheers,
Bernard

On 10.11.5 does it freeze this with the native Mac binary version or with my emulator script?
If the virtualized version fails, at the very least you could have reported it to me earlier ...

Edmund
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chrismuc

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2016, 10:07:57 pm »

my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D

The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.

1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.

2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.

3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.

4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.

5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.

So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:

Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.

Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution

Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter

Tiltable screen

Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)

Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:

26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.

:-)
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hcubell

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2016, 10:36:22 pm »

my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D

The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.

1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.

2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.

3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.

4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.

5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.

So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:

Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.

Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution

Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter

Tiltable screen

Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)

Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:

26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.

:-)

Sure, why not dream. I have no idea what Fuji will offer in the way of a medium format mirrorless camera, but (a) I am confident it will use the same Sony 50mp sensor, (b) if it incorporates a FPS, it will have vibration issues and all the testers will trash it, and (c) if it offers IBIS and faster lenses, the body and lenses will be appreciably larger and heavier. There is no free lunch.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2016, 01:20:46 am »

Hi,

I would guess that an MFD camera from Fuji would also have a leaf shutter. Including an FP shutter would be nice, but I wouldn't really expect it.

MFD is often using leaf shutters as it allows for short flash sync times.

Still, would Fuji adopt an FP shutter, it would probably not be the Mamiya shutter used in several MFD solutions but one developed for Fuji.

The vibration issue from FP shutters can almost entirely be eliminated by using EFSC (Electronic First Shutter Curtain). At this stage it is not clear whether the 44x33 Sony sensor supports EFSC or not.

We may also keep in mind that the MFD from Fuji is a rumour. It may be a solid rumour, but nevertheless a rumour.

Best regards
Erik


Sure, why not dream. I have no idea what Fuji will offer in the way of a medium format mirrorless camera, but (a) I am confident it will use the same Sony 50mp sensor, (b) if it incorporates a FPS, it will have vibration issues and all the testers will trash it, and (c) if it offers IBIS and faster lenses, the body and lenses will be appreciably larger and heavier. There is no free lunch.
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E.J. Peiker

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2016, 11:41:46 am »

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NickT

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2016, 04:08:52 pm »


The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.


People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.

Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.

I'd call that a winner.
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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2016, 06:37:30 pm »

People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.

Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.

I'd call that a winner.

ok, let's wait for the user reports
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2016, 08:38:14 pm »

Hi,

Nice to hear…

I am glad that Hasselblad developed this camera and glad to hear it is selling well.

I am also pretty sure Hasselblad listens to their customers and add some features they are asking for. In all probability there will be new sensors and viewfinders and Hasselblad will release new models when new technologies are available.

Best regards
Erik



People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.

Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.

I'd call that a winner.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2016, 08:47:55 pm »

Hi Chris,

The X1D uses technology available today. BSI CMOS may take some time to happen on MFD.

I would agree that tiltable screen is an important advantage. That is something that Hasselblad could add very easily. 

My guess is that the X1D is not intended to have a focal plane shutter (FPS). MFD users often prefer leaf shutters. On the other hand, a FPS gives a lot of flexibility. Electronic First Shutter Curtain eliminates most of the vibration problems.

I don't know if it would be possible to fit a FPS in the X1D. Flange distance may be to short.

Best regards
Erik

my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D

The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.

1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.

2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.

3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.

4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.

5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.

So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:

Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.

Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution

Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter

Tiltable screen

Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)

Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:

26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.

:-)
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NickT

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2016, 11:04:39 pm »

ok, let's wait for the user reports

That would be a historic moment on the forum....
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2016, 04:39:21 am »

That would be a historic moment on the forum....

Lol

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2016, 06:01:38 am »

That would be a historic moment on the forum....

Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.

 ;D

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 06:59:34 am by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2016, 08:40:30 am »

Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.

 ;D

Edmund

No, you're being too harsh on yourself. All anyone can do is offer their best opinion with the knowledge available. You, at least, have some real technical knowledge whereas I have only desires and memories of what worked for me back them. And would still today, had I not gone throught a full-blown male menopause. Thing is, at least I'm capable of 'fessing up and recognizing it for what it was.

Were these different manufacturers of cameras able to sit down together, have an honest chat about format, file-type, etc. etc. they would be able to come up with a sensible set of parameters that would make it easier for the lot of them to operate within a sytem of sanity rather than one of anarchy, as we have today. How hard is it to understand that all of them - and many more - were able to compete and do reasonably well before digi came aknocking?

Film was a lingua franca for all camera makers, allowing them to get on with the core business of making cameras, nothing else needed or hanging around and costing R&D and distraction.

We already have the old 135 format that everyone has adopted, by and large; ditto the lens lines. If Sony and whoever else is playing will agree to standardize on a set of format sizes, then the future becomes clear and easy to manage for the camera bodies, lens designers/makers and also the sensor makers themselves. We simply don't need the divisive influence of all of these competing semi-formats: they aren't doing anyone any good. I'm sure that were a standard set of formats agreed, we could soon see the introduction of revolving back 6x4.5 or even 6x7 bodies. The money you don't spend messing about with sub-species you can devote to other purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmXJOqOCWw

Not exactly my theme, but he makes some close and sensible observations.

Rob

Garry Sarre

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2016, 10:33:49 pm »

Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.

 ;D

Edmund

Very clever Edmund. Haha.
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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2016, 10:54:04 pm »

No, you're being too harsh on yourself. All anyone can do is offer their best opinion with the knowledge available. You, at least, have some real technical knowledge whereas I have only desires and memories of what worked for me back them. And would still today, had I not gone throught a full-blown male menopause. Thing is, at least I'm capable of 'fessing up and recognizing it for what it was.

Were these different manufacturers of cameras able to sit down together, have an honest chat about format, file-type, etc. etc. they would be able to come up with a sensible set of parameters that would make it easier for the lot of them to operate within a sytem of sanity rather than one of anarchy, as we have today. How hard is it to understand that all of them - and many more - were able to compete and do reasonably well before digi came aknocking?

Film was a lingua franca for all camera makers, allowing them to get on with the core business of making cameras, nothing else needed or hanging around and costing R&D and distraction.

We already have the old 135 format that everyone has adopted, by and large; ditto the lens lines. If Sony and whoever else is playing will agree to standardize on a set of format sizes, then the future becomes clear and easy to manage for the camera bodies, lens designers/makers and also the sensor makers themselves. We simply don't need the divisive influence of all of these competing semi-formats: they aren't doing anyone any good. I'm sure that were a standard set of formats agreed, we could soon see the introduction of revolving back 6x4.5 or even 6x7 bodies. The money you don't spend messing about with sub-species you can devote to other purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmXJOqOCWw

Not exactly my theme, but he makes some close and sensible observations.

Rob

Yeah they ought to warn guys about the midlife. Here I am with 20 IQ points less, and a 5 year old running round the house. Not that I'm complaining, the change may have taken away my brain and my balls, but I still am as much of an abrasive asshole as I ever was :)

As to the overcrowded model jungle - you're preaching to the choir. All true.

Anyway, I think we really *could* have a snapchat style board where the pages just vamoose after a few days. Fewer red faces.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 10:57:32 pm by eronald »
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