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Author Topic: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D  (Read 39661 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2016, 01:57:40 am »

Hi,

Regarding the Fuji lenses, part of the design was done in Sweden and some other parts by Fujinon. The portion of design varied lens by lens. My guess is that Hasselblad made an initial design and Fujinon refined it for production.

The new lenses have very good MTF data. Maximum apertures are relatively small. I guess it is a good choice to keep price and size reasonably low.

Best regards
Erik


What I see here with the X1D is the second enterprise (after Leica) to create a fully integrated MFD system (one OVF, one EVF), good-bye to good old modular concept which traces its origins back to film era, where interchangeable backs made a lot of sense. P1 (with Mamiya and Leaf), Hasselblad and Pentax share this slow and evolutionary transition process which worked as disincentive to disruptive thinking.

This is kind of sad for tech cam guys but I think the days of separate digital backs are counted. Same holds for modular viewfinders (the new waist-level finder is called articulated LCD with touch functionality). And if you ask yourself nowadays why the H/XF/Z have to be that big and heavy as they are, you should be looking forward to theses changes.

What has not been discussed yet is the new lens line. Hasselblad made it quite clear that THEY designed them. The production process is in Japan and this works in the same manner as Zeiss with Cosina. I remember, there was a similar discusion to what degree the HC lenses are from Fuji. Hasselblad stated that they are own designs, only produced by Fuji. So, again, we see a kind of vertical integration under one roof. This is quite remarkable considering the impressing MTFs.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2016, 07:50:21 am »

No DOF scales on the X1D lenses.

Is DOF information available in the viewfinder or on the LCD?

If so that would be new AFAIK, I don't think my H camera has that. It seems to me that DoF scales and zone focusing has drastically lost in popularity so I doubt there are many missing it. Although there are other examples it seems to be sort of a niche owned by the Leica M where it's intended to actually be used. When I shoot landscape I use a DoF calculator app from time to time, but with my own circle of confusion settings so a DoF scale on the lens wouldn't help much. A programmable DoF scale in the viewfinder/LCD would be interesting though...

I think that with more resolultion a camera has the less likely is that users are going to be pleased with a single DoF scale.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2016, 08:01:12 am »

The solution for DoF marking would to equip lenses with a a-la Zeiss e-paper like display in the lens that can be configured based on user selectable circle of confusion.

Cheers,
Bernard

kers

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2016, 08:37:20 am »

What i do not understand is the name of the camera:

we now can now go to the shop and order  the X1D, 1DXII, X100, X1, X-Pro2, X-T10,NX1, RX1RII ...  ...
 ;)
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2016, 08:50:16 am »

The solution for DoF marking would to equip lenses with a a-la Zeiss e-paper like display in the lens that can be configured based on user selectable circle of confusion.

Cheers,
Bernard

Leica S has that on the camera display. Although without programmable circle of confusion. But it is quite accurate/on the save side. I use it all the time.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2016, 01:04:47 pm »

Hi,

On the other hand, I would suggest that we need to check out how things work. Modern AF-lenses are not built for manual focus, anyway.

Just as an example, my Sony 28-70 kit lens is pretty useless in MF, but the Sony 90/2.8 feels just like a helical focusing ring.

Best regards
Erik

It seems that the viewfinder and or display may well have DOF info in an update.

But focus by wire confirmed.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Why the great hurry
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2016, 01:08:16 pm »

Hi,

It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

synn

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2016, 02:33:17 pm »

Hi,

It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…

Best regards
Erik

Starts with an F and ends with an UJI.
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SrMi

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2016, 02:55:14 pm »

Hi,

It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…

Best regards
Erik

B&H states that X1D shipping begins July 29th. X1D Preview tour (stores will have a demo unit) begins today.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2016, 03:00:54 pm »

B&H states that X1D shipping begins July 29th. X1D Preview tour (stores will have a demo unit) begins today.

Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).

End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2016, 03:18:14 pm »

Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).

End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.

Any guess regarding the reason for the "early" announcement?

Cheers,
Bernard

hubell

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2016, 03:53:30 pm »

Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).

End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.

Doug:
Good to see you are paying careful attention to the X1D. Many of us are quite surprised that Phase One as the medium format market leader was not the first out the door with a mirrorless camera. Phase owns Mamiya and yet it is Hasselblad that has come out with the digital Mamiya 7 that many photographers have requested over the years.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:58:05 pm by hubell »
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Hulyss

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2016, 04:09:21 pm »

Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).

End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.

Well, we have live demo and trial from 4 to the 9 in the south of France. Then commercials travel France with the units to go to the interested. I have a commercial at home end of July. I agree that the hype went far above expectations. Normally I should have tried it this weekend ... But there is no units in the wild. They sleep with them and there is no way they send a unit to an individual. The commercial will be here a along the shoot. 
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landscapephoto

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Re: Why the great hurry
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2016, 02:21:53 am »

Why is Hasselblad announcing early?

Many people buy a new camera at the end of June, right before the summer vacations. Hasselblad may want some of their prospective customers to save their money for the X1D instead.
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torger

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2016, 07:46:04 am »

Last time they announced early it was to be ahead of Phase One. The obvious case here, like many have already guessed is that they wanted to be ahead of Fuji.

An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.
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Ken R

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2016, 08:43:14 am »

Last time they announced early it was to be ahead of Phase One. The obvious case here, like many have already guessed is that they wanted to be ahead of Fuji.

An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.

The early announcement gives Hasselblad time to get a feel of what people think about it and also tweak/add stuff in firmware before it is released. Like a beta release. On a lesser note it might also put a stop to some costumers who were on the verge of purchasing other competitor's products and of course generate more interest in Medium Format Digital in people who had yet to consider it. It certainly puts it more in the limelight. 
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2016, 11:44:49 am »

An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.
That's the explanation that I believe is true.  Look at all the buzz this thing is getting.  Just here on Lula we have about 5 threads covering hundreds of comments by dozens of people.  This camera is al over the Internet on every single photography related website.  Even Hassy with the pixel shift 200mp option and Phase with the XF-100 MP didn't have anywhere near this coverage.  Clearly by announcing this early, they are creating a big buzz.  The potential downside for creating such a huge buzz is that if it has any bugs on release or it doesn't live up to the pre-production hype, the backlash will be more severe.  But if I were doing the marketing, I'd do exactly the same thing.  Yes it bugs some people but the more publicity you can get the better.  If you do it close to Photokina, you can tend to get drowned out by all the other announcements, especially if CanNikSony have a major announcement.
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2016, 04:13:52 pm »

What I see here with the X1D is the second enterprise (after Leica) to create a fully integrated MFD system (one OVF, one EVF), good-bye to good old modular concept which traces its origins back to film era, where interchangeable backs made a lot of sense. P1 (with Mamiya and Leaf), Hasselblad and Pentax share this slow and evolutionary transition process which worked as disincentive to disruptive thinking.

This is kind of sad for tech cam guys but I think the days of separate digital backs are counted. Same holds for modular viewfinders (the new waist-level finder is called articulated LCD with touch functionality). And if you ask yourself nowadays why the H/XF/Z have to be that big and heavy as they are, you should be looking forward to theses changes.

As with Leica's S system you mention I think a big issue isn't just that the system is integrated rather than modular but that its designed from the ground up for a smaller medium format sensor size. The modular systems and Pentax's digital 645 all use flange distances designed for full 645 film which makes them a lot deeper and with the modular ones also with much larger prisms.

My guess is Hassleblad probably see the larger 54x40mm sensor size as the future for the H-system and cameras like the X1D as the future for the 44x33mm sensor size that can lead to a smaller system if designed from the ground up.

With the smaller sensor size as well I'm guessing theres potential for further improvements in resolution too with the lens performance to exploit it, if 35mm digital pushes up to 60-70 MP I'm guessing lenses will start to become a big limiting factor.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2016, 04:20:08 pm »

Hi,

I would guess that 100+ MP is coming on the 44x33 mm sensors pretty soon. Rumours on 72-75 MP on full frame 24x36 seem to be quite solid and that would scale to around 125MP on 44x33.

Best regards
Erik

As with Leica's S system you mention I think a big issue isn't just that the system is integrated rather than modular but that its designed from the ground up for a smaller medium format sensor size. The modular systems and Pentax's digital 645 all use flange distances designed for full 645 film which makes them a lot deeper and with the modular ones also with much larger prisms.

My guess is Hassleblad probably see the larger 54x40mm sensor size as the future for the H-system and cameras like the X1D as the future for the 44x33mm sensor size that can lead to a smaller system if designed from the ground up.

With the smaller sensor size as well I'm guessing theres potential for further improvements in resolution too with the lens performance to exploit it, if 35mm digital pushes up to 60-70 MP I'm guessing lenses will start to become a big limiting factor.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

algrove

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2016, 10:23:46 pm »

Hi,

My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:

First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.

The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.

For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.

But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.

Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.

Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.

50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.

Best regards
Erik

Unless I misunderstand your comment, 645Z lenses from 25 (19mm 35 equiv) and the 28-45 (a 22mm 35 equiv) are certainly wider than 24mm for a 35 equiv.
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