Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on June 24, 2016, 04:37:30 am
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Hi,
Hasselblad just created a new system. New bayonet, new lenses. The new camera is affordable compared to MFD pricing and competes head on with the Pentax 645Z price wise.
What I think that Hasselblad wanted to have a new concept, with a smaller but very high quality camera. I am pretty sure it will be successfull.
So, now we have a new camera system with new lenses. Those lenses won't work on the H-series. H-series lenses will work with the X1D with adapters. Fine for H-system users…
It may be that Hasselblad sees 44x33 format as the future. No doubt, Sony can make high MP sensors for the 44x33 format. Would they 'scale up' the A7rII sensor to 44x33 size the resolution would be 70 MP. But, it is rumored that next generation may be around 72-75 MP on the A-series. Scaled up to 44x33 mm that would be around 125 MP.
So, it is quite possible for Hasselblad to develop a system optimised for 44x33mm. They just need some really excellent lenses and the two that they have keep a lot of promise according to the MTF data.
A weakness of this strategi may be that the difference between 44x36mm and 24x36mm may not be big enough.
If Hasselblad has chosen this strategy, it may be similar to the Leica S. Personally I feel that Leica missed on developing higher resolution sensors. The sensors should always match the lenses. So Leica makes what are said to be the best lenses in MFD but they have the lowest resolution sensor in MFD. Makes little sense to me…
So, I would not be surprised if we see an X2D around the corner, sporting a 100+MP sensor from Sony combined with a new set of Hasselblad lenses.
That would be a credible strategy, and I would wish Hasselblad much success.
What about the H system? I think they develop that one as long as it is commercially feasible and they will support it for a long time.
The X-system may just be another leg to stand on, or the future path. For Hasselblad it is a venture in the unknown. But, I think they know what they are doing.
Best regards
Erik
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So, I would not be surprised if we see an X2D around the corner, sporting a 100+MP sensor from Sony combined with a new set of Hasselblad lenses.
The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.
Marc
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The a7r2 is 42mp and the 44x33 sensor is 1.67 times the area so a scaled a7R sensor would be approximately 71mp not 125mp:
42(44x33)/(36x24)=70.6
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The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package. In time I am sure more adapters will be made.
A much smaller and lighter 645z with much better lenses. Il take it.
For studio work I still MUCH prefer an Optical Viewfinder though.
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The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.
Marc
Isn't that what camera makers do, create new business for them? New lens lines are a very nice strategy for that. Look what they have done with their new leaf shutter. Puts a lot of pressure on H users to sell all their now "vintage" lenses in order to buy the new ones with 1/2000. eBay is flooded with H lenses at the moment …. very cheap. A pity that most of them won't work with AF on the new X1D.
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The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package.
As I understood, only newer H lenses which allow a certain firmware update will allow AF, all others will only work manually on the X1D. The big question is now where and when to get a list with the serial numbers which qualify.
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If Hasselblad has chosen this strategy, it may be similar to the Leica S. Personally I feel that Leica missed on developing higher resolution sensors. The sensors should always match the lenses. So Leica makes what are said to be the best lenses in MFD but they have the lowest resolution sensor in MFD. Makes little sense to me…
You have a point here. My guess is that Leica had problems to get a better sensor form CMOSIS at the time, but I am quite sure that the S 008 will have a 50-60 MP sensor, time will tell. On the other hand, as a Leica S 007 user I am not that sad about the fact, that the current Leica S model "only" has a 37 MP sensor. The acuity of that fat pixels (6 microns), working with the S lenses, is that impressive (for example compared to my previous Nikon D810 with Zeiss lenses) that you don't miss it that much, at least if you do not print very big.
There is another aspect in it: the ergonomics of a MFD camera. I tried Pentax 645Z and Hasselblad H5D and didn't like the slowish electronics, obviously not really up to the task to handle the data of the 50 MP sensor. The Leica 007 has no lags at all, its almost like working with a state-of-the-art FF camera as the D810.
So again, it's a question of design priorities and trade-offs and I respect the decisions, Leica made. You can participate in the MP race, or you don't.
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The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package. In time I am sure more adapters will be made.
A much smaller and lighter 645z with much better lenses. Il take it.
True but the lenses are a bit bulky plus you have to add in the adapter and the lenses are expensive for this system ($7K and nearly 1kg for a slow 24mm for example) ;)
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Hi Marc,
Not a larger sensor, but one with smaller pixels. Rumors are that Sony would have 72-75 MP in next generation full frame.
Best regards
Erik
The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.
Marc
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Yes, you are right. I mixed up with rumored next generation.
Best regards
Erik
The a7r2 is 42mp and the 44x33 sensor is 1.67 times the area so a scaled a7R sensor would be approximately 71mp not 125mp:
42(44x33)/(36x24)=70.6
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Yes, you are right. I mixed up with rumored next generation.
Best regards
Erik
Actually I think 70mp would be just about perfect for this size sensor. I'd be very content with that but native lenses need to be there. Even 50mp is fine at least for now but again, the native lenses need to be there for me including something significantly wider than 30mm - plus Capture one support which will probably never happen although I suppose DNG converter will at some point support the X1D and that would be a back door into C1.
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True but the lenses are a bit bulky plus you have to add in the adapter and the lenses are expensive for this system ($7K and nearly 1kg for a slow 24mm for example) ;)
The 24mm is not that big of a lens. Plus usually one uses that wide a focal length for architecture and/or landscapes at f8~f16. Never mind that one cannot get such a wide angle of view with the 645z.
Regarding Leica they can just make a deal with Sony and use the same 50mp sensor.
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Hi,
My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:
First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.
The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.
For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.
But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.
Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.
Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.
50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.
Best regards
Erik
You have a point here. My guess is that Leica had problems to get a better sensor form CMOSIS at the time, but I am quite sure that the S 008 will have a 50-60 MP sensor, time will tell. On the other hand, as a Leica S 007 user I am not that sad about the fact, that the current Leica S model "only" has a 37 MP sensor. The acuity of that fat pixels (6 microns), working with the S lenses, is that impressive (for example compared to my previous Nikon D810 with Zeiss lenses) that you don't miss it that much, at least if you do not print very big.
There is another aspect in it: the ergonomics of a MFD camera. I tried Pentax 645Z and Hasselblad H5D and didn't like the slowish electronics, obviously not really up to the task to handle the data of the 50 MP sensor. The Leica 007 has no lags at all, its almost like working with a state-of-the-art FF camera as the D810.
So again, it's a question of design priorities and trade-offs and I respect the decisions, Leica made. You can participate in the MP race, or you don't.
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Regarding Leica they can just make a deal with Sony and use the same 50mp sensor.
I fear that won't happen. 2:3 was practically invented by Leica and Sony sensor is 3:4.
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Hi,
The Sony sensor is 44x33mm and the Leica sensor is 45x30mm, so the Sony sensor can be cropped down to very near Leica dimensions.
I don't think there is a lot of difference between 37 MP and 50 MP, but 50 MP on the 44x33 sensor is probably not the last we see from Sony.
Best regards
Erik
I fear that won't happen. 2:3 was practically invented by Leica and Sony sensor is 3:4.
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Hi,
The Sony sensor is 44x33mm and the Leica sensor is 45x30mm, so the Sony sensor can be cropped down to very near Leica dimensions.
I don't think there is a lot of difference between 37 MP and 50 MP, but 50 MP on the 44x33 sensor is probably not the last we see from Sony.
Best regards
Erik
Why would they do that? This would result in a 44x29 sensor with 44 MP. But they could make a deal with Sony about the 100 MP sensor if CMOSIS is not able to do that.
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Hi,
My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:
First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.
The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.
For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.
But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.
Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.
Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.
50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.
Best regards
Erik
Sure, downscaling is always better.
As regards to the capacity of the Leica S lenses I may cite from an old interview, David Farkas made with Peter Karbe, head of the optical development department at Leica:
"With the 6µm pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5µm pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail."
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Hi,
just to say, I have tested my Planar 100/3.5 with high resolution black and white film on a resolution target and something like 220 lp/mm were resolved, albeit at low contrast.
A few years ago, Erwin Puts published MTF data for some classical lenses up to 160 lp/mm, here: http://www.imx.nl/photo/optics/optics/page61.html
The MTF values at 160 lp/mm were 25-35 %, much higher than what I would have expected, so at least something like 3 micron pixels would be needed to fully resolve those lenses and there would still be some aliasing.
Best regards
Erik
Sure, downscaling is always better.
As regards to the capacity of the Leica S lenses I may cite from an old interview, David Farkas made with Peter Karbe, head of the optical development department at Leica:
"With the 6µm pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5µm pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail."
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Why is there yet another thread on the X1D, with the same chatter as the others, guessing as to how things will pan out?
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Hi,
just to say, I have tested my Planar 100/3.5 with high resolution black and white film on a resolution target and something like 220 lp/mm were resolved, albeit at low contrast.
Best regards
Erik
Surely, one of the finest lenses in the V lineup.
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Why is there yet another thread on the X1D, with the same chatter as the others, guessing as to how things will pan out?
There really isn't any active moderation on LuLa - there are always multiple threads on the same thing and often across several forums when something new an talk worthy comes out. Active moderation would collapse everything to one or two pertinent threads in a single forum.
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Hi,
I am the OP on this. I could have posted on another thread, but I wanted to discuss some technological aspects and also the future of the system. Posting on another thread we wouldn't have the same discussion.
A lot of good posting on this thread...
Best regards
Erik
Why is there yet another thread on the X1D, with the same chatter as the others, guessing as to how things will pan out?
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As I understood, only newer H lenses which allow a certain firmware update will allow AF, all others will only work manually on the X1D. The big question is now where and when to get a list with the serial numbers which qualify.
That was my understanding too but Hasselblad have posted on another forum saying all HC/HCD lenses will work with AF.
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What I see here with the X1D is the second enterprise (after Leica) to create a fully integrated MFD system (one OVF, one EVF), good-bye to good old modular concept which traces its origins back to film era, where interchangeable backs made a lot of sense. P1 (with Mamiya and Leaf), Hasselblad and Pentax share this slow and evolutionary transition process which worked as disincentive to disruptive thinking.
This is kind of sad for tech cam guys but I think the days of separate digital backs are counted. Same holds for modular viewfinders (the new waist-level finder is called articulated LCD with touch functionality). And if you ask yourself nowadays why the H/XF/Z have to be that big and heavy as they are, you should be looking forward to theses changes.
What has not been discussed yet is the new lens line. Hasselblad made it quite clear that THEY designed them. The production process is in Japan and this works in the same manner as Zeiss with Cosina. I remember, there was a similar discusion to what degree the HC lenses are from Fuji. Hasselblad stated that they are own designs, only produced by Fuji. So, again, we see a kind of vertical integration under one roof. This is quite remarkable considering the impressing MTFs.
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That was my understanding too but Hasselblad have posted on another forum saying all HC/HCD lenses will work with AF.
Yes thanks, I have also seen the Hasselblad statement on GetDpi. Let's hope this applies also to the older lenses which I may buy cheap on eBay. Anyway, I could live with manual focus for certain applications.
What I would like to know is, whether the manual focus on the new lenses is focus-by-wire or mechanical. Have noticed that there are no distance indications.
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. This is quite remarkable considering the impressing MTFs.
Yes the lenses look like they will perform really well. Their lens designer is a super clever guy, it was him who confirmed to me that the MTFs are not based on digitally corrected data.
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Hi Nick,
Could you please help confirm if the manual focusing is old school helical focusing, not focus-by-wire seen in Sony/Zeiss E mount lenses?
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I will ask!
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Thanks! Have you had the chance to handle the camera/lenses directly? You can feel the focus-by-wire right away if thats the case.
As advanced as the Sony system is, I can not live with focus-by-wire, I feel completely disconnected from the working of the camera.
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As advanced as the Sony system is, I can not live with focus-by-wire, I feel completely disconnected from the working of the camera.
The Zeiss Loxia lenses are not focus by wire. They feel just like the classic Zeiss lenses in focus - you will love them if you haven't tried them.
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Thanks! Have you had the chance to handle the camera/lenses directly? You can feel the focus-by-wire right away if thats the case.
As advanced as the Sony system is, I can not live with focus-by-wire, I feel completely disconnected from the working of the camera.
I handled it ever so briefly but didn't try manual focus sorry.
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The Zeiss Loxia lenses are not focus by wire. They feel just like the classic Zeiss lenses in focus - you will love them if you haven't tried them.
Yes they are beautifully engineer, however there's no AF. Is it too much to ask for good AF with helical manual focus override?
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Focus by wire on the Fuji X lenses feels pretty close to the real deal.
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Someone over GetDPI said it was indeed "focus by wire". If so potentially a deal breaker for me.
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Hi,
I would suggest to test the camera before drawing conclusions. Yes, I would guess that CDAF essentially needs focus by wire. But I would suggest that well implemented focus by wire may work well enough. Another point, a well designed AF system may make manual focus less necessary.
Best regards
Erik
Someone over GetDPI said it was indeed "focus by wire". If so potentially a deal breaker for me.
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Focus by wire on the Fuji X lenses feels pretty close to the real deal.
definitely not on 35/1.4, 18/2 or 60/2.4 lenses, if anything, pretty far from the real deal
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definitely not on 35/1.4, 18/2 or 60/2.4 lenses, if anything, pretty far from the real deal
Agreed, I have used or tested virtually every lens ever made for mirrorless as well as just about every lens currently on the market for 35mm and many MF lenses and there is no focus by wire lens made that feels anything like a quality manual focus ring like what you get from Leica or Zeiss or even Voigtlander, et al or virtually any other quality manual focus lens. While Fuji focus by wire lenses feel better than most, they don't at all feel like these.
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Focus by wire basically gives a constant resistance in focusing barrel, without connecting to and without any nuance of the physical process of pushing/pulling lens group, it might be very well be a dial instead.
From what Erik said, is it possible at all to have mirrorless and AF lenses with traditional manual focusing? Mirrorless at the moment feels like giving instruction to a computer, you are removed from the direct connection with the subject by the EVF, and removed from the direct connection with the camera by focus by wire and electronic shutter.
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I don't have tried the Leica Q, but as far as I know it has a "real" manual focus mechanism (and it has AF).
And all the manual Leica M lenses, Zeiss Loxia lenses, etc. can be used with the focus aids of Sony A7 or Leica SL.
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Agreed, I have used or tested virtually every lens ever made for mirrorless as well as just about every lens currently on the market for 35mm and many MF lenses and there is no focus by wire lens made that feels anything like a quality manual focus ring like what you get from Leica or Zeiss or even Voigtlander, et al or virtually any other quality manual focus lens. While Fuji focus by wire lenses feel better than most, they don't at all feel like these.
Worse than the feel, some fly by wire lenses do not allow intermediate focus points eg near infinity when operated "manually".
Edmund
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Hi,
Regarding the Fuji lenses, part of the design was done in Sweden and some other parts by Fujinon. The portion of design varied lens by lens. My guess is that Hasselblad made an initial design and Fujinon refined it for production.
The new lenses have very good MTF data. Maximum apertures are relatively small. I guess it is a good choice to keep price and size reasonably low.
Best regards
Erik
What I see here with the X1D is the second enterprise (after Leica) to create a fully integrated MFD system (one OVF, one EVF), good-bye to good old modular concept which traces its origins back to film era, where interchangeable backs made a lot of sense. P1 (with Mamiya and Leaf), Hasselblad and Pentax share this slow and evolutionary transition process which worked as disincentive to disruptive thinking.
This is kind of sad for tech cam guys but I think the days of separate digital backs are counted. Same holds for modular viewfinders (the new waist-level finder is called articulated LCD with touch functionality). And if you ask yourself nowadays why the H/XF/Z have to be that big and heavy as they are, you should be looking forward to theses changes.
What has not been discussed yet is the new lens line. Hasselblad made it quite clear that THEY designed them. The production process is in Japan and this works in the same manner as Zeiss with Cosina. I remember, there was a similar discusion to what degree the HC lenses are from Fuji. Hasselblad stated that they are own designs, only produced by Fuji. So, again, we see a kind of vertical integration under one roof. This is quite remarkable considering the impressing MTFs.
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No DOF scales on the X1D lenses.
Is DOF information available in the viewfinder or on the LCD?
If so that would be new AFAIK, I don't think my H camera has that. It seems to me that DoF scales and zone focusing has drastically lost in popularity so I doubt there are many missing it. Although there are other examples it seems to be sort of a niche owned by the Leica M where it's intended to actually be used. When I shoot landscape I use a DoF calculator app from time to time, but with my own circle of confusion settings so a DoF scale on the lens wouldn't help much. A programmable DoF scale in the viewfinder/LCD would be interesting though...
I think that with more resolultion a camera has the less likely is that users are going to be pleased with a single DoF scale.
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The solution for DoF marking would to equip lenses with a a-la Zeiss e-paper like display in the lens that can be configured based on user selectable circle of confusion.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What i do not understand is the name of the camera:
we now can now go to the shop and order the X1D, 1DXII, X100, X1, X-Pro2, X-T10,NX1, RX1RII ... ...
;)
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The solution for DoF marking would to equip lenses with a a-la Zeiss e-paper like display in the lens that can be configured based on user selectable circle of confusion.
Cheers,
Bernard
Leica S has that on the camera display. Although without programmable circle of confusion. But it is quite accurate/on the save side. I use it all the time.
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Hi,
On the other hand, I would suggest that we need to check out how things work. Modern AF-lenses are not built for manual focus, anyway.
Just as an example, my Sony 28-70 kit lens is pretty useless in MF, but the Sony 90/2.8 feels just like a helical focusing ring.
Best regards
Erik
It seems that the viewfinder and or display may well have DOF info in an update.
But focus by wire confirmed.
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Hi,
It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…
Best regards
Erik
Starts with an F and ends with an UJI.
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Hi,
It seems the X1D will be available after Photokina. It is quite obvious that today's samples lack features in the final version. Why is Hasselblad announcing early? I guess it is to forestall an announcement from a competitor, whoever that may be…
Best regards
Erik
B&H states that X1D shipping begins July 29th. X1D Preview tour (stores will have a demo unit) begins today.
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B&H states that X1D shipping begins July 29th. X1D Preview tour (stores will have a demo unit) begins today.
Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).
End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.
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Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).
End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.
Any guess regarding the reason for the "early" announcement?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).
End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.
Doug:
Good to see you are paying careful attention to the X1D. Many of us are quite surprised that Phase One as the medium format market leader was not the first out the door with a mirrorless camera. Phase owns Mamiya and yet it is Hasselblad that has come out with the digital Mamiya 7 that many photographers have requested over the years.
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Then B+H and the CEO of Hasselblad disagree :).
End of August / Early September was what he said on stage at the launch.
Well, we have live demo and trial from 4 to the 9 in the south of France. Then commercials travel France with the units to go to the interested. I have a commercial at home end of July. I agree that the hype went far above expectations. Normally I should have tried it this weekend ... But there is no units in the wild. They sleep with them and there is no way they send a unit to an individual. The commercial will be here a along the shoot.
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Why is Hasselblad announcing early?
Many people buy a new camera at the end of June, right before the summer vacations. Hasselblad may want some of their prospective customers to save their money for the X1D instead.
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Last time they announced early it was to be ahead of Phase One. The obvious case here, like many have already guessed is that they wanted to be ahead of Fuji.
An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.
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Last time they announced early it was to be ahead of Phase One. The obvious case here, like many have already guessed is that they wanted to be ahead of Fuji.
An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.
The early announcement gives Hasselblad time to get a feel of what people think about it and also tweak/add stuff in firmware before it is released. Like a beta release. On a lesser note it might also put a stop to some costumers who were on the verge of purchasing other competitor's products and of course generate more interest in Medium Format Digital in people who had yet to consider it. It certainly puts it more in the limelight.
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An alternative explanation is simply that early announcements is simply the new standard. Work up some interest in advance, get pre-orders etc. Maybe it just makes good business sense? I think customers today are more tolerant to pre-announcements than they were in the past. It happens in other businesses too.
That's the explanation that I believe is true. Look at all the buzz this thing is getting. Just here on Lula we have about 5 threads covering hundreds of comments by dozens of people. This camera is al over the Internet on every single photography related website. Even Hassy with the pixel shift 200mp option and Phase with the XF-100 MP didn't have anywhere near this coverage. Clearly by announcing this early, they are creating a big buzz. The potential downside for creating such a huge buzz is that if it has any bugs on release or it doesn't live up to the pre-production hype, the backlash will be more severe. But if I were doing the marketing, I'd do exactly the same thing. Yes it bugs some people but the more publicity you can get the better. If you do it close to Photokina, you can tend to get drowned out by all the other announcements, especially if CanNikSony have a major announcement.
-
What I see here with the X1D is the second enterprise (after Leica) to create a fully integrated MFD system (one OVF, one EVF), good-bye to good old modular concept which traces its origins back to film era, where interchangeable backs made a lot of sense. P1 (with Mamiya and Leaf), Hasselblad and Pentax share this slow and evolutionary transition process which worked as disincentive to disruptive thinking.
This is kind of sad for tech cam guys but I think the days of separate digital backs are counted. Same holds for modular viewfinders (the new waist-level finder is called articulated LCD with touch functionality). And if you ask yourself nowadays why the H/XF/Z have to be that big and heavy as they are, you should be looking forward to theses changes.
As with Leica's S system you mention I think a big issue isn't just that the system is integrated rather than modular but that its designed from the ground up for a smaller medium format sensor size. The modular systems and Pentax's digital 645 all use flange distances designed for full 645 film which makes them a lot deeper and with the modular ones also with much larger prisms.
My guess is Hassleblad probably see the larger 54x40mm sensor size as the future for the H-system and cameras like the X1D as the future for the 44x33mm sensor size that can lead to a smaller system if designed from the ground up.
With the smaller sensor size as well I'm guessing theres potential for further improvements in resolution too with the lens performance to exploit it, if 35mm digital pushes up to 60-70 MP I'm guessing lenses will start to become a big limiting factor.
-
Hi,
I would guess that 100+ MP is coming on the 44x33 mm sensors pretty soon. Rumours on 72-75 MP on full frame 24x36 seem to be quite solid and that would scale to around 125MP on 44x33.
Best regards
Erik
As with Leica's S system you mention I think a big issue isn't just that the system is integrated rather than modular but that its designed from the ground up for a smaller medium format sensor size. The modular systems and Pentax's digital 645 all use flange distances designed for full 645 film which makes them a lot deeper and with the modular ones also with much larger prisms.
My guess is Hassleblad probably see the larger 54x40mm sensor size as the future for the H-system and cameras like the X1D as the future for the 44x33mm sensor size that can lead to a smaller system if designed from the ground up.
With the smaller sensor size as well I'm guessing theres potential for further improvements in resolution too with the lens performance to exploit it, if 35mm digital pushes up to 60-70 MP I'm guessing lenses will start to become a big limiting factor.
-
Hi,
My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:
First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.
The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.
For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.
But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.
Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.
Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.
50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.
Best regards
Erik
Unless I misunderstand your comment, 645Z lenses from 25 (19mm 35 equiv) and the 28-45 (a 22mm 35 equiv) are certainly wider than 24mm for a 35 equiv.
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I'd like to say a couple of things. I believe this outstanding attention for the X1D is because it is the first mirrorless medium format camera and not because the early announcement. Second, on behalf of technical camera photogs, I think they may have to adapt. Mirrorless cams are the new backs.
Eduardo
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Another question, no discussed yet in these parts, is that impact of the X1D on other bodies using the same sensor.
Considering the price points of the X1D, H6D-50 and H6D-100, it seems very clear to me that Hassy will sell few H6D-50 at its current price point. Their policy to provide temporary H6D-50 till the 100 is available means that they will soon have a large stock of 50 bodies coming back to them that they may sell as refurbished bodies at a cheaper price as well. Anothet reason not to buy an H6D-50.
What does it mean for P1 and the sales of the IQ3-50?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think that these are two different streams
I shoot with an H6D50 and a D810. I'm also going to get an X1D. I'm not a wealthy amateur (although amateurs are great), I'm a working pro, doing ok at the moment.
H6d lives in the studio, tethered, live view all of that.
D810 (D800 backup) is my run and gun high ISO high frame rate camera. I like it but I don't get quite as good results as I get with my 'blads. I'm not a Nikon expert.
I am so excited about the X1D because I think this will be my travel/walk around camera.
I think I'll be back to the 5X4, 6X6, 35mm days with this combo.
Bottom line, do what works for you.
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I think I'll be back to the 5X4, 6X6, 35mm days with this combo.
You mean,
- 4x5 -> H6D
- 6x6 -> X1D
- 35mm -> D810
?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yes I think that's pretty much it for me. I'm sure others will have different ideas.
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Yes I think that's pretty much it for me. I'm sure others will have different ideas.
Interesting thanks.
This is in fact very close to what I have in mind, but we'll see.
I would think that a MS version of the H6D with the new 100mp sensor will be released at some point in time, this may turn your mapping table into:
- 8x10 -> H6D-100 MS
;)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Hi,
I would guess that 100+ MP is coming on the 44x33 mm sensors pretty soon. Rumours on 72-75 MP on full frame 24x36 seem to be quite solid and that would scale to around 125MP on 44x33.
Best regards
Erik
"Pretty soon"? Do you think that Hasselblad would be releasing a new camera with a sensor that was dated within a relatively short period of time after release? I have to assume that Hasselblad has very good information from Sony as to the future roadmap for medium format sensors.
No doubt there will be a major upgrade of the 44x33 mm Sony sensor at some point in the future. More MP, excellent on-sensor AF, and EFCS. My guess is that's 2-3 years down the road. Anybody thinking about buying an X1D has to go into it with their eyes open. That has always been the unfortunate reality of buying digital cameras.
-
"Pretty soon"? Do you think that Hasselblad would be releasing a new camera with a sensor that was dated within a relatively short period of time after release? I have to assume that Hasselblad has very good information from Sony as to the future roadmap for medium format sensors.
No doubt there will be a major upgrade of the 44x33 mm Sony sensor at some point in the future. More MP, excellent on-sensor AF, and EFCS. My guess is that's 2-3 years down the road. Anybody thinking about buying an X1D has to go into it with their eyes open. That has always been the unfortunate reality of buying digital cameras.
I believe that it could be sooner than that, but that doesn't change a thing. The pictures you won't be taking because you wait will be a million times worse than those of photographers investing today in an X1D.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Hi,
Hasselblad is using the sensors that are available. Obviously, they could wait for the next generation Sony sensor, but that may be giving up business opportunities and possibly loss of market to a competitor, like the one beginning with an 'F' and ending with 'uji'.
Sony has an interesting solution. The original A7r is still available, at a significantly reduced price, while the A7rII is quite expensive. The A7r lacks modern features like EFCS and on sensor PDAF. The A7rII has it all, and a bit advantage in resolution, too.
Common sense says that Sony will implement PDAF and EFCS and some other tricks on MFD-sensors when those technologies are available.
Best regards
Erik
"Pretty soon"? Do you think that Hasselblad would be releasing a new camera with a sensor that was dated within a relatively short period of time after release? I have to assume that Hasselblad has very good information from Sony as to the future roadmap for medium format sensors.
No doubt there will be a major upgrade of the 44x33 mm Sony sensor at some point in the future. More MP, excellent on-sensor AF, and EFCS. My guess is that's 2-3 years down the road. Anybody thinking about buying an X1D has to go into it with their eyes open. That has always been the unfortunate reality of buying digital cameras.
-
The Hasselblad X1D took about 20 months to develop so they needed to use a sensor that was available then. I am sure sony is working on a next gen MF sensor at the moment and Hasselblad on the X2D (or waiting on the next gen sensor). The development time of the X2D should be much less if thy use the same body. 12-18 months at the most. So I would expect it in 2 years or even less.
-
Hi,
There are just two medium format sensors from Sony, the 50 MP and the 100 MP ones. I would speculate on new sensors coming.
I am quite sure that Sony has "road maps" for MFD sensors and that those "road maps" are known to their customers. So I would assume that Hasselblad's choice of 44x33 mm sensor size takes information on future sensors into account.
Best regards
Erik
The Hasselblad X1D took about 20 months to develop so they needed to use a sensor that was available then. I am sure sony is working on a next gen MF sensor at the moment and Hasselblad on the X2D (or waiting on the next gen sensor). The development time of the X2D should be much less if thy use the same body. 12-18 months at the most. So I would expect it in 2 years or even less.
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It seems pretty clear we're done with evolving sensor sizes. Both 33x44 and 41x54 are here to stay.
I would really suggest that P1, Hassy and Pentax sit around a table and define an official naming for these 2 sizes. This would take one incertainty out of the MF market and would help third party companies consider a long term investement in lenses.
I suggest the following and am willing to discuss the sharing of my IP. :)
- 33x44: MX
- 41x44: LX
Cheers,
Bernard
-
It seems pretty clear we're done with evolving sensor sizes. Both 33x44 and 41x54 are here to stay.
I would really suggest that P1, Hassy and Pentax sit around a table and define an official naming for these 2 sizes. This would take one incertainty out of the MF market and would help third party companies consider a long term investement in lenses.
I suggest the following and am willing to discuss the sharing of my IP. :)
- 33x44: MX
- 41x44: LX
Cheers,
Bernard
Or we might make a suitable numerical range based on some anchor point (e.g. 24x36mm) and assuming that doubling the sensor area improves the potential results by one abstract "unit", as an alternative to the "crop factor". On the other hand, buyers might object to buying a "-4 size" camera.
area = [3*2.4 8.6*6.6 13.2*8.8 22.2*14.8 24*36 33*44 41*54 60*90 200*250];
anchor = 24*36;
log2(area./anchor)
ans =
-6.9069 -3.9281 -2.8949 -1.3949 0 0.7489 1.3576 2.6439 5.8548
-
Are you an Octave user?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Are you an Octave user?
Cheers,
Bernard
I swim with my eyes shut.
Rob C
-
I swim with my eyes shut.
Absolutely, on the other hand, isn't using a toilet for disabled person ample proof of a mental handicap?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'd like to say a couple of things. I believe this outstanding attention for the X1D is because it is the first mirrorless medium format camera and not because the early announcement. Second, on behalf of technical camera photogs, I think they may have to adapt. Mirrorless cams are the new backs.
Eduardo
You may very well be right Eduardo, but not for me. The things that I like about a technical camera will not be replaced by the X1D. I am very interested in this camera (or maybe something similar from Fuji if that happens). But in my mind that will replace the a7rii, not the technical camera.
Dave
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You may very well be right Eduardo, but not for me. The things that I like about a technical camera will not be replaced by the X1D. I am very interested in this camera (or maybe something similar from Fuji if that happens). But in my mind that will replace the a7rii, not the technical camera.
Dave.
Exactly..... can't imagine giving up my two tech cameras - Actus and STC. The X1D is a transitional camera for the new wave of mirror less. Good by clunky mirrors and hello future but my tech cameras will be with me forever.
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Absolutely, on the other hand, isn't using a toilet for disabled person ample proof of a mental handicap?
Cheers,
Bernard
This would depend, surely, on whether the user is actually disabled, simply in a hurry, or forgets to lift the lid, should there be one.
I wouldn't like to believe there are definitive rules about this delicate subject. But then, there are lots of things about which I'd rather not believe, so I suppose I can't pin too much faith in wishes.
The important thing is to maintain a regular movement.
There's a tv commercial doing the rounds in the ex-UK at the mpoment, for a type of laxative I think, and their imagery shows a rough-barked tree thrusting upwards rapidly fom a hole in the ground. It's quite upsetting, to a sensitive person such as I.
Rob
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There's a tv commercial doing the rounds in the ex-UK at the mpoment, for a type of laxative I think, and their imagery shows a rough-barked tree thrusting upwards rapidly fom a hole in the ground. It's quite upsetting, to a sensitive person such as I.
Indeed, probably an early side effect of the dislocation, nature taking back control.
I am really glad that nobody thinks this isn't right on topic btw, this shows how mature this board has become.
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://petapixel.com/2016/06/30/fuji-release-affordable-mirrorless-medium-format-september-report/
More from the Fuji camp.
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Are you an Octave user?
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm an Octave maintainer.
Author of the mac emulation port.
http://wiki.octave.org/Octave_for_MacOS_X#Octave_server_VM_installer_for_OSX_10.10_Yosemite_and_OS_X_10.11_El_Capitan
Edmund
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Or we might make a suitable numerical range based on some anchor point (e.g. 24x36mm) and assuming that doubling the sensor area improves the potential results by one abstract "unit", as an alternative to the "crop factor". On the other hand, buyers might object to buying a "-4 size" camera.
area = [3*2.4 8.6*6.6 13.2*8.8 22.2*14.8 24*36 33*44 41*54 60*90 200*250];
anchor = 24*36;
log2(area./anchor)
ans =
-6.9069 -3.9281 -2.8949 -1.3949 0 0.7489 1.3576 2.6439 5.8548
Instead of using the log2 this way, it might be easier to set eg. 24x36=0= F4 and then use photographic stops eg. 36x48= F2.8
Edmund
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I'm an Octave maintainer.
Author of the mac emulation port.
http://wiki.octave.org/Octave_for_MacOS_X#Octave_server_VM_installer_for_OSX_10.10_Yosemite_and_OS_X_10.11_El_Capitan
Great, I am facing issues with 10.11.5! Total freeze when trying to display a simple plot! ;)
Fortunately I use it mostly on Win, but still...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Great, I am facing issues with 10.11.5! Total freeze when trying to display a simple plot! ;)
Fortunately I use it mostly on Win, but still...
Cheers,
Bernard
On 10.11.5 does it freeze this with the native Mac binary version or with my emulator script?
If the virtualized version fails, at the very least you could have reported it to me earlier ...
Edmund
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my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D
The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.
1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.
2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.
3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.
4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.
5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.
So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:
Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.
Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution
Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
Tiltable screen
Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)
Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:
26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.
:-)
-
my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D
The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.
1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.
2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.
3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.
4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.
5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.
So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:
Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.
Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution
Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
Tiltable screen
Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)
Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:
26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.
:-)
Sure, why not dream. I have no idea what Fuji will offer in the way of a medium format mirrorless camera, but (a) I am confident it will use the same Sony 50mp sensor, (b) if it incorporates a FPS, it will have vibration issues and all the testers will trash it, and (c) if it offers IBIS and faster lenses, the body and lenses will be appreciably larger and heavier. There is no free lunch.
-
Hi,
I would guess that an MFD camera from Fuji would also have a leaf shutter. Including an FP shutter would be nice, but I wouldn't really expect it.
MFD is often using leaf shutters as it allows for short flash sync times.
Still, would Fuji adopt an FP shutter, it would probably not be the Mamiya shutter used in several MFD solutions but one developed for Fuji.
The vibration issue from FP shutters can almost entirely be eliminated by using EFSC (Electronic First Shutter Curtain). At this stage it is not clear whether the 44x33 Sony sensor supports EFSC or not.
We may also keep in mind that the MFD from Fuji is a rumour. It may be a solid rumour, but nevertheless a rumour.
Best regards
Erik
Sure, why not dream. I have no idea what Fuji will offer in the way of a medium format mirrorless camera, but (a) I am confident it will use the same Sony 50mp sensor, (b) if it incorporates a FPS, it will have vibration issues and all the testers will trash it, and (c) if it offers IBIS and faster lenses, the body and lenses will be appreciably larger and heavier. There is no free lunch.
-
Oosting interview:
http://bokeh.digitalrev.com/article/everything-you-need-to-know-about-hasselblads-new-x1d
Also, he has reversed the previous Hasselbald comments about zoom lenses for the X1D:
http://bokeh.digitalrev.com/article/hasselblad-ceo-perry-oosting-says-x1d-actually-will-have-zoom-lenses
-
Thanks for sharing!
Interesting info…
Best regards
Erik
Oosting interview:
http://bokeh.digitalrev.com/article/everything-you-need-to-know-about-hasselblads-new-x1d
Also, he has reversed the previous Hasselbald comments about zoom lenses for the X1D:
http://bokeh.digitalrev.com/article/hasselblad-ceo-perry-oosting-says-x1d-actually-will-have-zoom-lenses
-
The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.
People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.
Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.
I'd call that a winner.
-
People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.
Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.
I'd call that a winner.
ok, let's wait for the user reports
-
Hi,
Nice to hear…
I am glad that Hasselblad developed this camera and glad to hear it is selling well.
I am also pretty sure Hasselblad listens to their customers and add some features they are asking for. In all probability there will be new sensors and viewfinders and Hasselblad will release new models when new technologies are available.
Best regards
Erik
People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.
Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.
I'd call that a winner.
-
Hi Chris,
The X1D uses technology available today. BSI CMOS may take some time to happen on MFD.
I would agree that tiltable screen is an important advantage. That is something that Hasselblad could add very easily.
My guess is that the X1D is not intended to have a focal plane shutter (FPS). MFD users often prefer leaf shutters. On the other hand, a FPS gives a lot of flexibility. Electronic First Shutter Curtain eliminates most of the vibration problems.
I don't know if it would be possible to fit a FPS in the X1D. Flange distance may be to short.
Best regards
Erik
my 2c on the new released Hasselblad X-1D
The mirrorless X-1D is definetely a cool move by Hasselblad but IMO the system lacks some key functions compared to the Sony A7R II to make it a versatile winner.
1. Resolution
The horizontal resolution of the X-1D sensor is only 4% higher than the A7R II. The 20% higher total resolution of the X-1D sensor mainly derives from the 1.33:1 size compared to the 1.5:1 size of the A7R II sensor.
That small difference in resolution does for me not justify a crop-MF sensor camera.
2. Lack of focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
That's the real dealbreaker because it makes the usage of third party lenses via adapters impossible. Especially it kills the option to use the Canon TSE lenses (and other shift lenses) which would have sufficient large image circle and sufficient long flange distance to be used with the X-1D.
3. No BSI CMOS, therefore lack of phase detect AF points
The current 44x33mm CMOS Sony sensor offers state-of-the art dynamic range but unfortunately does no have phase detect AF points. The quantity (399) and very wide distribution of phase detect AF points in the Sony A7R II enables incredible well AF performance out-of-center which is very useful to focus properly (and quick) on (moving) faces/eyes nearly anywhere within the image.
4. Lack of tiltable screen
It is my understanding that most 'professional' cameras aren't offered with tiltable screens to achieve higher reliability and solidity but that reason IMO is outweighted by two other arguments.
A: In certain (esp. high or low or upwards directed) camera positions on the tripod for any kind of photography the tiltable screen is very useful and comfortable.
B: For candid photography it allows pictures from waist perspective which is basically impossible w/o such a screen.
For both purposes I don't want to miss any longer the tiltable screens on my Sony A7R II and Fuji X-T1.
5. No fast 50(55)/85(90)mm equiv. lenses
The XCD 90f3.2 lens offers a rather weird FOV (equiv. to about 70mm in 24x36mm) and it can't be called fast for a short tele lens, so the DOF is not particularly small. I prefer the compact, lightweight, fast and sharp lenses FE 55f1.8 and Batis 85f1.8 for the Sony and would expect equivalent lenses for the 44x33mm sensor format.
So that gives the ball to Fuji to release my 'perfect crop-MF mirrorless camera:
Camera design and UI based on X-T1, that means most functions can be accessed w/o using the menu:
- aperture ring at lens (please:-)
- dials for exposure time, ISO, exposure compensation
- levers for AF/C-AF/MF, metering mode, single/continuous shooting a.s.o.
Next generation Sony 44x33mm sensor in BSI CMOS technology that allows phase detect AF points, presumingly with increased resolution
Focal plane shutter and global electronic shutter
Tiltable screen
Epson EVF with 1440 resolution (like Leica SL)
Reasonably fast but still compact and reasonably light prime lenses
My favorite four lens set-up would be:
26f3.4 = 21mm FOV f2.8 equiv.
43f2.8 = 35mm FOV f2.4 equiv.
67f2.4 = 55mm FOV f2 equiv.
100f2.4 = 85mm FOV f2 equiv.
:-)
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ok, let's wait for the user reports
That would be a historic moment on the forum....
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That would be a historic moment on the forum....
Lol
Cheers,
Bernard
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That would be a historic moment on the forum....
Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.
;D
Edmund
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Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.
;D
Edmund
No, you're being too harsh on yourself. All anyone can do is offer their best opinion with the knowledge available. You, at least, have some real technical knowledge whereas I have only desires and memories of what worked for me back them. And would still today, had I not gone throught a full-blown male menopause. Thing is, at least I'm capable of 'fessing up and recognizing it for what it was.
Were these different manufacturers of cameras able to sit down together, have an honest chat about format, file-type, etc. etc. they would be able to come up with a sensible set of parameters that would make it easier for the lot of them to operate within a sytem of sanity rather than one of anarchy, as we have today. How hard is it to understand that all of them - and many more - were able to compete and do reasonably well before digi came aknocking?
Film was a lingua franca for all camera makers, allowing them to get on with the core business of making cameras, nothing else needed or hanging around and costing R&D and distraction.
We already have the old 135 format that everyone has adopted, by and large; ditto the lens lines. If Sony and whoever else is playing will agree to standardize on a set of format sizes, then the future becomes clear and easy to manage for the camera bodies, lens designers/makers and also the sensor makers themselves. We simply don't need the divisive influence of all of these competing semi-formats: they aren't doing anyone any good. I'm sure that were a standard set of formats agreed, we could soon see the introduction of revolving back 6x4.5 or even 6x7 bodies. The money you don't spend messing about with sub-species you can devote to other purposes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmXJOqOCWw
Not exactly my theme, but he makes some close and sensible observations.
Rob
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Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.
;D
Edmund
Very clever Edmund. Haha.
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No, you're being too harsh on yourself. All anyone can do is offer their best opinion with the knowledge available. You, at least, have some real technical knowledge whereas I have only desires and memories of what worked for me back them. And would still today, had I not gone throught a full-blown male menopause. Thing is, at least I'm capable of 'fessing up and recognizing it for what it was.
Were these different manufacturers of cameras able to sit down together, have an honest chat about format, file-type, etc. etc. they would be able to come up with a sensible set of parameters that would make it easier for the lot of them to operate within a sytem of sanity rather than one of anarchy, as we have today. How hard is it to understand that all of them - and many more - were able to compete and do reasonably well before digi came aknocking?
Film was a lingua franca for all camera makers, allowing them to get on with the core business of making cameras, nothing else needed or hanging around and costing R&D and distraction.
We already have the old 135 format that everyone has adopted, by and large; ditto the lens lines. If Sony and whoever else is playing will agree to standardize on a set of format sizes, then the future becomes clear and easy to manage for the camera bodies, lens designers/makers and also the sensor makers themselves. We simply don't need the divisive influence of all of these competing semi-formats: they aren't doing anyone any good. I'm sure that were a standard set of formats agreed, we could soon see the introduction of revolving back 6x4.5 or even 6x7 bodies. The money you don't spend messing about with sub-species you can devote to other purposes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmXJOqOCWw
Not exactly my theme, but he makes some close and sensible observations.
Rob
Yeah they ought to warn guys about the midlife. Here I am with 20 IQ points less, and a 5 year old running round the house. Not that I'm complaining, the change may have taken away my brain and my balls, but I still am as much of an abrasive asshole as I ever was :)
As to the overcrowded model jungle - you're preaching to the choir. All true.
Anyway, I think we really *could* have a snapchat style board where the pages just vamoose after a few days. Fewer red faces.
Edmund
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Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.
;D
Edmund
Hard to ignore them when you're authoring half of them, innit Edmund?
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Hard to ignore them when you're authoring half of them, innit Edmund?
I think im gonna delete my account. Been a member since 2005. A handful of prolific posters have basically ruined de MF forum here for me at least. I guess it will be one less photographer in this forum that actually lives off photography and actually owns and uses Medium Format Digital gear.
Synn I appreciate that you always try to balance discussions out but the techy, grumpy, never satisfied know it all gang is just too much. They can have this forum to argue among themselves which most of the time is exactly what ends up happening anyway. ta ta!
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I think im gonna delete my account. Been a member since 2005. A handful of prolific posters have basically ruined de MF forum here for me at least. I guess it will be one less photographer in this forum that actually lives off photography and actually owns and uses Medium Format Digital gear.
Synn I appreciate that you always try to balance discussions out but the techy, grumpy, never satisfied know it all gang is just too much. They can have this forum to argue among themselves which most of the time is exactly what ends up happening anyway. ta ta!
It would be unfortunate to see you go but I completely understand your sentiment. Comments along the lines of "why doesn't this motorcycle have 4 wheels" are becoming the norm. There should be a rule that if you don't own or use or least have seen something vaguely similar you can't comment.
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It would be unfortunate to see you go but I completely understand your sentiment. Comments along the lines of "why doesn't this motorcycle have 4 wheels" are becoming the norm. There should be a rule that if you don't own or use or least have seen something vaguely similar you can't comment.
If looking away is too hard, there is an ignore tool here. I am ignoring Synn, and although I feel he is entitled to voice his opinions I am not reading them. One can also take a vacation from the whole yackety yack forum thing - in fact I suspect that when one of us disappears for a while it is often not out of disgust but because that person is actually away getting something done for a few months.
And BTW, one of my recent points is that none of us claims to have used an X1D extensively -although some have ordered one- and we're all talking about it. This whole thread's existence is weird in a way.
I would vote for a "real hard experience" subforum where we talk about a given real situation and what we did/do there. But i think it already exists as Pro Business.
Last not least, let's look at the reality of the issues. Of the top 10 threads just now, only number 2 and 9 got polluted, and those were pretty ridiculous to start with.
Edmund
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Are you an Octave user?
Cheers,
Bernard
No, MATLAB.
I tried Octave many years ago, and did not like it.
For a free/open source alternative, how about Python/Numpy?
-h
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No, MATLAB.
I tried Octave many years ago, and did not like it.
For a free/open source alternative, how about Python/Numpy?
-h
That's my take too: a few years ago I abandoned MATLAB for the modern open source alternative of "Scientific Python": Python plus NumPy plus Matplotlib plus SciPy, all usable in the rather Matlab-like GUI of Spyder if you want. Better graphics tools and a far better, more modern mainstream core language design, along with being free, and far more support coming from the younger generation of computational scientists.
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https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/
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https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/
Thanks for sharing Nick.
Although the samples are actually not available at full resolution on Flickr, I am pretty impressed by the image quality so far.
Cheers,
Bernard
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That's my take too: a few years ago I abandoned MATLAB for the modern open source alternative of "Scientific Python": Python plus NumPy plus Matplotlib plus SciPy, all usable in the rather Matlab-like GUI of Spyder if you want. Better graphics tools and a far better, more modern mainstream core language design, along with being free, and far more support coming from the younger generation of computational scientists.
I think both can coexist. And in fact I have used both - there are days when I want scrambled eggs for breakfast, other days I prefer boiled ones.
I think Matlab/Octave is more usable for very small code fragments. But for an engineer there tend to be a lot of those :) I use iPython/Jupyter for anything larger than 10 lines. BTW, Octave has a nice GUI interface these days.
There is a tool called SWIG to integrate C code with Python - you might benefit from it:
http://www.swig.org/tutorial.html
Edmund
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On the other hand, I would suggest that we need to check out how things work. Modern AF-lenses are not built for manual focus, anyway.
Good point. Even if the best manual focus experience come with the helicoids in lenses designed exclusively for manual focusing, it might be that under the compromises of supporting both AF and MF, the best solution will be focus-by-wire, at least once it is responsive enough. For one thing, FBW allows options like different "gearing ratios" between focus movement and focus ring rotation:
- a high ratio for big, quick shifts in focus, requiring only about a half turn from minimum to infinity, and
- a lower ratio for small, slow, careful focus adjustments.
Some Olympus lenses try to do this, shifting gearing ratios depending on whether the focus ring is rotated quickly or slowly.
The helicoids in mechanically coupled manual focus systems on AF lenses generally have a rather high gearing ratio, favoring speed over accuracy, which is one reason that some photographers find them inferior to pure manual focus lenses for precise manual focusing.
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Good point. Even if the best manual focus experience come with lenses designed exclusively for manual focusing, it might be that under the compromises of supporting both AF and MF, the best solution will be focus-by-wire, at least once it is responsive enough. For one thing, FBW allows options like different ratios between focus movement and focus ring rotation:
- a high ratio for big, quick shifts in focus, requiring only about a half turn from minimum to infinity, and
- a lower ratio for small, slow, careful focus adjustments.
Some Olympus lenses try to do this, shifting ratios depending on whether the focus ring is rotated quickly or slowly.
Most mechanically coupled manual focus systems on AF lenses have a rather high ratio, which is one reason that some photographers find them inferior to pure MF lenses for precise manual focusing.
YES! The idea of having variable ratios is nice.
Edmund
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YES! The idea of having variable ratios is nice.
Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.
Cheers,
Bernard
Indeed: hence the word "good" in my subject line, and my future tense phrasing that "the best solution will be focus-by-wire". Focus-by-wire, like EVFs, still needs work to match the best that traditional approach can offer, but I am optimistic that in both cases, there is room for substantial further progress, whereas the far more mature traditional alternatives are probably close to their natural limits.
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Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.
Cheers,
Bernard
The question is not only "can" but "is allowed to". My 85/1.2 cannot focus well close to infinity ie around 15-20m. even though it is hugely sharp. I tested a Hassy with a fast portrait lens 100mm, and saw exactly the same issues. You can check your favorite short tele at night time with the streetlamps.
Edmund
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Well, we have live demo and trial from 4 to the 9 in the south of France. Then commercials travel France with the units to go to the interested.
If the X1D is that far along in development, I can see no benefit to customers for Hasselblad to withhold information about it; it is probably well beyond the stage where the announcement could become vaporware, due to subsequent substantial delays or even cancellation of the product.
Given that a product will be ready for release at a certain date, the difference between:
- announcing some months in advance of release (maybe with advanced prototypes available for demos) and
- having it available for sale very quickly after announcement
is not that the latter option gets you the product earlier; it is that the former gets you information about it earlier. The latter option is the one that can leave people frustrated by having bought an item just days or weeks before a better alternative comes to market. More so if it competes closely with current products from the same company, which is then borderline "insider trading" by selling you an item that it knows will very soon be devalued by the arrival of the unannounced new product.
Anyway, the X1D announcement follows the usual pattern: it is sufficiently different from the maker's current offerings (and a bit closer to some competitors' products) that Hasselblad probably sees more to gain by encouraging people to wait on purchasing a competing product than it might lose by discouraging people from buying one of its own current products in the meantime.
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The issues with preannouncements are complex, and were at the center of the IBM antitrust suits.
Here Hassy are preannouncing in the sense that they intend to deliver the product but cannot yet supply it, and are announcing ahead of supply because they are afraid that a competitor -Fuji or possibly Sony- will address their customers. It could be argued that Fuji would have gained by making an immediate announcement of their own and unveiling their prototypes; on the other hand, Fuji may wait for Hasselblad to sell at current prices to the first customers and then sandbag them by forcing them to lock in a very high pricepoint that will then be percieved as irrealistic when the Fuji product appears, and also revising their product specs to remedy an apparent deficiencies when compared with Hasselblad.
In the video space a price war has broken out between Sony and Canon,customers are now aware that the actual product pricing has just about nothing to do with production costs or with camera performance.
Edmund
If the X1D is that far along in development, I can see no benefit to customers for Hasselblad to withhold information about it; it is probably well beyond the stage where the announcement could become vaporware, due to subsequent substantial delays or even cancellation of the product.
Given that a product will be ready for release at a certain date, the difference between:
- announcing some months in advance of release (maybe with advanced prototypes available for demos) and
- having it available for sale very quickly after announcement
is not that the latter option gets you the product earlier; it is that the former gets you information about it earlier. The latter option is the one that can leave people frustrated by having bought an item just days or weeks before a better alternative comes to market. More so if it competes closely with current products from the same company, which is then borderline "insider trading" by selling you an item that it knows will very soon be devalued by the arrival of the unannounced new product.
Anyway, the X1D announcement follows the usual pattern: it is sufficiently different from the maker's current offerings (and a bit closer to some competitors' products) that Hasselblad probably sees more to gain by encouraging people to wait on purchasing a competing product than it might lose by discouraging people from buying one of its own current products in the meantime.
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I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?
Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).
Cheers,
Bernard
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I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?
Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).
Cheers,
Bernard
I don't think the X1D is an offender, but 5 months in the future with actual deliveries constrained starts to become a joke - or a fashion industry move. Leica announcements ...
Edmund
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The issues with preannouncements are complex, and were at the center of the IBM antitrust suits.
I specifically tried to avoid comparison to cases like the notorious IBM system/360 model 91 announcement, where the product is at best on the drawing board and not delivered until years later if at all.
To repeat, what I am in favor of is announcing a product by the time there are prototypes working well enough to show to reviewers, and to provide sample images.
Your "five months is too long" seems reasonable, allowing exceptions due to unforeseeable circumstances. There was a case where Xerox was punished by an FTC order to not announce more than three months in advance.
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Hi,
I had a very long wait for A7rII…
It may seem that there may be a mirrorless device coming soon from Fuji, and I guess it may be the case that Hasselblad wanted to be first. That was actually also the case with the 50 MP CMOS back. Hasselblad announced it well before Phase One but Phase was the first to market.
In a sense, I feel it is a pity that Hasselblad did not cooperate with Fuji on this one. Both the Hasselblad H-series and the X-Pan were great success. Now we may see Hasselblad competing with Fuji and it may be also with Sony.
Best regards
Erik
I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?
Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).
Cheers,
Bernard
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You're forgetting the other reason to pre-announce - control the messaging around the product as a whole. Hass did an amazing job keeping it under wraps as long as they did, and had it not been for a seller in NYC, we'd have been fully surprised. By saying here's what we have, and when it should be available lets them get it into hands as beta units, much like in 3 days when it'll be here in Seattle.
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Hi,
They are prereleasing a product without final specifications.
Best regards
Erik
You're forgetting the other reason to pre-announce - control the messaging around the product as a whole. Hass did an amazing job keeping it under wraps as long as they did, and had it not been for a seller in NYC, we'd have been fully surprised. By saying here's what we have, and when it should be available lets them get it into hands as beta units, much like in 3 days when it'll be here in Seattle.
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I would agree that you are doing what you should be doing because I notice the image and then I read the post, which of course is interesting, you're preaching to the choir, and then I stare at the image, and then I look again at the image, and frankly then I don't really care about the post anymore.
Were you intentionally going for the selfie/paparazzi impression on this picture? Did you use a blue awning/scrim above the car, with a light behind it to get the blue reflections? Or flash onto it? How did you get the blue/green rim reflections on the insides of the back window rims? The reduced number of colors for this picture is impressive, it looks like it could be turned into a lithograph.
Edmund
PS. Re low-end video, I'm starting to wonder whether the equipment wasn't made a certain way initially, and overpriced, so as not to scare the crews, and enforce the I-got-production-money pecking order, and now the gloves are coming off. The FS5 with its built-in stepless ND and Raw output at $5K serve a strong warning that buyers can now demand cheap and flexible.
I can only speak for myself, but when it comes to digital cameras, still and motion I think I've been trained to feel I "need" the next or the newest.
When I add it up having owned a dozen digital motion cameras, two and a half times that in digital still cameras, it finally made me pause.
I think we all know that it's a tough market for camera makers and they're all looking for an edge or a slot or a way to move me up, but some of the pricing vs. features seem off.
With motion cameras they seem to be going through the same gestation period that still cameras did a little less than a decade ago.
I'm not against commerce or making as much as you can, but is there really $10,000 more parts in a Canon C100 II than the C300 II? Lately Canon just shaved $4,000 off the c300 II and I'll bet they still make good money off of it.
How many cameras does it take to make a photograph? 4.
The one you sold to because you ordered the new one, the one you rented while you wait for the new one to come in (which will be delivered the day after the shoot) and a backup, which you'll never need unless you don't have a backup.
If your shooting still and motion multiply that by 2x or 3x.
Anyway, we just finished a campaign and I was set on buying a C300II for the project as it was multi media. I had it all in the cart ready to push the button and I thought, what is wrong with me (well a lot actually) but I have three large 4k cameras, one small 4k camera, 4 HD cameras and lenses everywhere.
It kind of hit me that I didn't need the 5% difference the C300 would give me and well I went back to doing what i should be doing.
(http://russellrutherford.com/SOCIAL_MEDIA_INSIDE_ROD.jpg)
IMO
BC
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J,
Sorry to ask insistently, but how d'you get those blue reflections? I'll remember the tinted reflection trick, it's a new one for me.
The color keying is very neat.
Edmund
The selfie look?
Your partially right. This campaign's emphasis is to give a social media look. Not totally manicured, not everything placed within inches, but your right think professional selfie.
The colors come from my partner/stylist/producer Ann Rutherford. Ann always gives something to key on, like the green jacket and glasses and the black gloves. The green gives me my overall target, the hands in that position would not work without the gloves.
There is very little post work on this image, nearly everything is out of lightroom, especially the colors. Lightroom has it moments, but it's so adjustable you can do some amazing things with color and tone and the only photoshop work is about 5 minutes to clean up a few stray hairs and to clean up a few bumps.
With this scene, and others, there will be more going on than just a still, but i'll show that later.
This is from a different scene, but like above it will be more than 1 image and it was shot fast, all of it very fast, all the lights or fill usually handheld, 99% of the post work in lightroom.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/stairs_social_media.jpg)
IMO
BC
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I have to admit that whenever a manufacturer release a consumer product with immediate availability, I think highly of them. They seem to be in control.
Whenever a manufacturer release a consumer product to be available in 6-12 months, I am thinking "desparation".
Possible exception for certain professional products where their customers actually need to do some time-consuming preparation before buying the product.
-h
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I have to admit that whenever a manufacturer release a consumer product with immediate availability, I think highly of them. They seem to be in control.
Indeed. Now it's an interesting MBA case study question to identify the optimal time btwn annoucement and availability to optimize revenue over the life cycle of a product.
It relates to production capacity, demand forecast, logistics,...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Btw, there samples available at DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/4962516765/hasselblad-x1d-pre-production-samples
I love the highlights/midtones, the way details are rendered and the bokeh from the 90mm. I am less impressed by the transitions to deep shadows as soon as the ISO goes up a bit. It could be the jpgs, but it is really harsh blocked blacks and pretty noisy also. On that aspect, I am getting much better from my D810 at those ISOs I believe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Btw, there samples available at DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/4962516765/hasselblad-x1d-pre-production-samples
I love the highlights/midtones, the way details are rendered and the bokeh from the 90mm. I am less impressed by the transitions to deep shadows as soon as the ISO goes up a bit. It could be the jpgs, but it is really harsh blocked blacks and pretty noisy also. On that aspect, I am getting much better from my D810 at those ISOs I believe.
Cheers,
Bernard
The Nikon has been around for longer :)
Even though I was born a sceptic, I would be inclined to give Hassy the benefit of doubt, and expect exactly the same renderings as the H5D50c and H6D50c.
One can disagree about the pricepoint, body features, etc, but I think our friend Doug would agree that *all* the medium format companies have regularly delivered impeccable and sometimes even superb file quality. In the end that's what they have always been selling.
Edmund
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Hi,
I also felt the darks are murky, but it's har to tell from jpegs. How much is dependent on processing? How is the image exposed?
Best regards
Erik
Btw, there samples available at DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/4962516765/hasselblad-x1d-pre-production-samples
I love the highlights/midtones, the way details are rendered and the bokeh from the 90mm. I am less impressed by the transitions to deep shadows as soon as the ISO goes up a bit. It could be the jpgs, but it is really harsh blocked blacks and pretty noisy also. On that aspect, I am getting much better from my D810 at those ISOs I believe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It seems pretty clear we're done with evolving sensor sizes. Both 33x44 and 41x54 are here to stay.
That looks likely, and if not, I expect that it will be because one of those fades away and the other become the universal larger-than-36x24mm sensor format.
I would really suggest that P1, Hassy and Pentax sit around a table and define an official naming for these 2 sizes. . . .
I suggest the following and am willing to discuss the sharing of my IP. :)
- 33x44: MX
- 41x44: LX
I severely doubt that those companies would standardize on some total meaningless names inspired by Nikon's quirky format naming! (Also, we already have too many X's in too many places.)
More likely, and to me more reasonable, would be following the pattern long used for formats larger than 36x24mm: simply using approximate sensor dimensions, dropping the unit name. Large format film uses inches (5x4, 7x5, 10x8), medium format film uses cm (645, 6x6, 6x7); for sensors I propose mm.
Then the three largest sensor formats could be called 36x24, 44x33, 54x41.
I note that in some parts of the world, 36x24mm film format has long been referred to in this way, as 36x24.
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Btw, there samples available at DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/4962516765/hasselblad-x1d-pre-production-samples
I love the highlights/midtones, the way details are rendered and the bokeh from the 90mm. I am less impressed by the transitions to deep shadows as soon as the ISO goes up a bit. It could be the jpgs, but it is really harsh blocked blacks and pretty noisy also. On that aspect, I am getting much better from my D810 at those ISOs I believe.
I don't like the bokeh from the samples taken with the 90mm in dpreview. I find the image bellow particularly telling. It is taken at f/8.
(http://3.static.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS600x450~sample_galleries/7172015721/9128282481.jpg)
We see a wall with books behind the main subject. I find that the rendering of the out of focus area is extremely "busy", as if the image was vibrating. The writing on the books is not recognisable. Some blue/white elements on the wall are doubled. Looking at the telephone specular highlights in full resolution, one sees that the octagonal shapes of the aperture have an intense rim, which is considered the mark of poor "bokeh". It seems that this particular lens was optimised for sharpness, but not for "bokeh".
It remains to be seen whether the 45mm and future 30mm are similar in their rendering, but the 90mm is not to my taste.
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Yes, there's this aquamarine cyan fishbowl effect in this shot, with the model's drowning eyes giving the key color. And when I look at the previous images, we have the green lens-eyes of the green-leather alien, and what look like they might be the babyblues of Mr. Denim, each key in its frame. This new set of images is really interesting. I also find they are emotionally alienating but that is probably millenial meets baby boomer.
I'm deconstructing the images a bit so I have something I can take away from them - I don't claim to be right about it.
Impressive work!
Edmund
There is no simple answer for this as it's all scene, subject dependent. Mostly we use some mixed light. As I mentioned the look is professional social media.
I find the spot, like the talent by the stairs which had a great deal of practical tungsten light, we have a series of lights that can be handheld, in this case the blue comes from a squeezed down daylight led that works kind of like a fresnel and we use it to accent the blue. For the face it's a shiny board.
The shot below wasn't planned but done in the same way. I say the talent taking a selifie of herself in the large mirror in our studio, so we quickly added a tungsten fresnel with some spun and shot it about as fast as i write this.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/social_campaign_russellrutherford_7c.jpg)
Then use lightroom to accent the colors and channels for accents for a real but stylized look.
IMO
BC
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- I don't claim to be right about it.
Edmund
Edmund!!! Are you ok?
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Edmund!!! Are you ok?
Er, I've run out of acid for my pen tonight, but I think I'll get some more in tomorrow :)
Everybody in town is in a good mood tonight, as the French won their game; horns going off etc, I think I can just hear Champs Elysés turning into a street party. Actually, I think I'll go and look at it.
Edmund
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Changing the title of a thread takes Hijacking a thread to a new level.
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Changing the title of a thread takes Hijacking a thread to a new level.
When it's inevitable, relax and enjoy it :)
Clearly you never participated in IRC, with scripts, bots, instant channel bans, and incessant channel topic changes. IRC was the place one went to download stuff before P2P got invented.
btw here's what tonight looks like in Paris
http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/football/euro-2016/en-images-euro-2016-la-folie-s-empare-des-champs-elysees-08-07-2016-5949795.php
Edmund
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Changing the title of a thread takes Hijacking a thread to a new level.
Changing the title of a thread would be confusing. On the other hand, changing the title of a post makes sense to me when the topic has drifted far from the original one, to have a post title that more accurately describes that particular post. The thread as a whole still appears in the lists of threads under the title of the original post. I think that is why this forum software allows the author of each post to give it an informative "sub-title".
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There is no simple answer for this as it's all scene, subject dependent. Mostly we use some mixed light. As I mentioned the look is professional social media.
I find the spot, like the talent by the stairs which had a great deal of practical tungsten light, we have a series of lights that can be handheld, in this case the blue comes from a squeezed down daylight led that works kind of like a fresnel and we use it to accent the blue. For the face it's a shiny board.
The shot below wasn't planned but done in the same way. I say the talent taking a selifie of herself in the large mirror in our studio, so we quickly added a tungsten fresnel with some spun and shot it about as fast as i write this.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/social_campaign_russellrutherford_7c.jpg)
Then use lightroom to accent the colors and channels for accents for a real but stylized look.
IMO
BC
Hey, sorry for the events of last night in Dallas; I hope you were somewhere else, and nobody close to you affected by the tragedy.
Take care, man.
Rob C
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Thanks James and thanks Rob,
Take care. To bad we have to live with this kind of violence…
Best regards
Erik
Thank you Rob. Yes we are in Dallas this week and were 4 to 5 blocks away from the scene. I know a lot of the police officers and don't know exactly who was slain as they have not released all the names but knew some of the police that responded.
It's a very sad day for all people for so many reasons.
We're shooting on Monday and we called all the crew and agents and asked them if they wanted to continue and they responded yes, they won't let this stop their lives, though it is very strange right now.
Once again thanks.
James
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Changing the title of a thread takes Hijacking a thread to a new level.
I could not agree more. I can think of a multitude of words to describe it.
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Thank you Rob. Yes we are in Dallas this week and were 4 to 5 blocks away from the scene. I know a lot of the police officers and don't know exactly who was slain as they have not released all the names but knew some of the police that responded.
It's a very sad day for all people for so many reasons.
We're shooting on Monday and we called all the crew and agents and asked them if they wanted to continue and they responded yes, they won't let this stop their lives, though it is very strange right now.
Once again thanks.
James
I'm so damned sorry, James - I think you and your crew are doing the right thing. Good luck to you all.
Rob
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Thank you Rob. Yes we are in Dallas this week and were 4 to 5 blocks away from the scene. I know a lot of the police officers and don't know exactly who was slain as they have not released all the names but knew some of the police that responded.
It's a very sad day for all people for so many reasons.
We're shooting on Monday and we called all the crew and agents and asked them if they wanted to continue and they responded yes, they won't let this stop their lives, though it is very strange right now.
Once again thanks.
James
You certainly have great courage and resilience.
Edmund
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James,
Your words give comfort and hope in a world that has seemingly gone completely off the rails. Stay safe and stay strong, and keep doing what you are great at. Looking forward, as always, to seeing more of your work.
John
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My two penneth for what it's worth, I have never shot the current range of Phase, Pentax, Hassy in real anger, but what I really didn't like about any of them was the balance, especially with a longish lens. On a tripod no problem, but in the hand I found them hard on the wrist as all the weight is canter levered to one side. This new Hassy looks much more comfortable to use.
If I could be bothered donating more money to the upgrade roundabout I would give it a look.
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J,
RED is not overpriced. agreed.
Sony Pro is not overpriced. agreed.
Sony low-end/entry level documentary eg. FS5 is now at $5K and no one can talk about overpriced at $5K.
Sony FS7 is selling well.
The Sony A series are not making low-end users happy, because as you state the codecs and above all reliability aren't there and ergonomics are a nightmare. Of course, those who already own an Odyssey or Shogun or Pix bypass the internal codecs and an use the recorder as a viewfinder. I think every serious crew shooter now owns one of these.
Canon are a different story. I believe -probably wrongly- that until full dual-pixel AF and 4K is enabled on Canon's low-end the bleeding to Sony of single-shooters will continue - these are core features now.
Let me be blunter: I expect the C300II price to fall in due course to $5.5K +Canon 30% premium, because it is in effect a direct competitor to the Sony FS5. This is a price war, and Sony has set not only the price but the features point with 4K, built-in automatic gradual filter, and raw output to the Odyssey which can also do ProRes. The C100 pricing has become a joke, it is the C300 which has the features which the market now expects.
As regards your accessory VF - obviously it's a neat idea. I'm surprised some sort of EVF accessory is not already on Canon's product list.
Edmund
I don't think your correct on this, in fact I think your not really understanding the change in the market over the last few years.
I don't think that RED or Arri and the high end Sony F65/F55 try to overprice their cameras for status. They are in the serious movie making business where glitches just can not happen without horrible consequences.
In fact RED brought the price of serious cameras into the everyman range and rocked the industry, when you look back at the cost of 35mm film cameras and moved sony's high end eng cameras down to competitive pricing and changed their format and pricing strategy, especially the F55 which is under $30,000 (body only).
Without RED Sony would probably be selling the F55 for twice the price.
Now Canon seems to be caught out a little. Their cameras produce beautiful color, heck my 1dx in HD shoots really pleasing, easy to grade color, but since Canon just dropped the price of the 4k C300 II by $4,000 obviously Sony has moved the market price down for cameras in these lower specs and feature motion cameras.
Whether you shoot a Sony A7sII or an Arri motion work is much different than stills in the fact that two bad seconds in the middle of a take can't be cut out. In fact I think Sony really needs to up their A mount game as the lenses are tremendous and for our work the A7sII is just not robust enough in codec, bit rate that holds up in grading.
Sony needs a Canon 1dxII competitor and the new Canon will probably be the next camera I purchase. From all reports even at 8 bits it's high bit rate and the ability to quickly go from stills to motion makes it a very verseatile camera, especially for fast lifestyle imagery and motion autofocus for lifestyle is an amazing addition when working quickly.
What Canon should have offered is a clip on evf to the 1dxII, kind of like the small olympus cameras that you can add a higher def evf on the hotshoe and shoot low like a waist level finder or straight on.
But I don't think any of us know what the profit ratio is on a camera (except the makers).
IMO
BC
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I don't think your correct on this, in fact I think your not really understanding the change in the market over the last few years.
I don't think that RED or Arri and the high end Sony F65/F55 try to overprice their cameras for status. They are in the serious movie making business where glitches just can not happen without horrible consequences.
In fact RED brought the price of serious cameras into the everyman range and rocked the industry, when you look back at the cost of 35mm film cameras and moved sony's high end eng cameras down to competitive pricing and changed their format and pricing strategy, especially the F55 which is under $30,000 (body only).
Without RED Sony would probably be selling the F55 for twice the price.
Now Canon seems to be caught out a little. Their cameras produce beautiful color, heck my 1dx in HD shoots really pleasing, easy to grade color, but since Canon just dropped the price of the 4k C300 II by $4,000 obviously Sony has moved the market price down for cameras in these lower specs and feature motion cameras.
Whether you shoot a Sony A7sII or an Arri motion work is much different than stills in the fact that two bad seconds in the middle of a take can't be cut out. In fact I think Sony really needs to up their A mount game as the lenses are tremendous and for our work the A7sII is just not robust enough in codec, bit rate that holds up in grading.
Sony needs a Canon 1dxII competitor and the new Canon will probably be the next camera I purchase. From all reports even at 8 bits it's high bit rate and the ability to quickly go from stills to motion makes it a very verseatile camera, especially for fast lifestyle imagery and motion autofocus for lifestyle is an amazing addition when working quickly.
What Canon should have offered is a clip on evf to the 1dxII, kind of like the small olympus cameras that you can add a higher def evf on the hotshoe and shoot low like a waist level finder or straight on.
But I don't think any of us know what the profit ratio is on a camera (except the makers).
IMO
BC
Spot on BC.
In the last few years I have had clients request video along with the stills and I just have my producer hire the camera crew so I can focus on directing the shoot and on the stills. The particular choice of camera is not that big a deal most times but I do prefer the look of the Alexa although sometimes its nice to have the resolution of the RED. Recently did a job with the C100 in the studio and liked it, served its purpose. Generally I consult with the DP and/or camera operator on each job for camera choice since each person prefers working with certain cameras. Most times camera crews like to avoid working with DSLRs (or MILC's) because they are more awkward to rig (even with a cage) and work with. I did work on a job with the A7S and it was ok (used leica glass). One of my best friends owns a post house and he has on hell of a colorist (works on a filmlight baselight) so he can work his magic on almost any footage.
I started working in the Advertising industry back when film was used (with Arri 3's, 435's, 535's and the 16mm SR models) and the costs were quite high. Video cameras mostly had 2/3" sensors and people tried to mimic the look of a larger format with cumbersome adapters like p+s technique Mini35. RED basically singlehandedly killed film in most marlets since it accelerated the development and adoption of the 35mm digital cinema camera.
Going back to your post I am very interested on the 1DxII for its video capabilities (even though I will use it mostly for stills) and would love to see more reviews on it.
The X1D is cool product although I would prefer a larger EVF for my work. But the Hassy and its new lenses are basically perfect as a travel camera for landscapes.
Regarding Edmund, trolls will be trolls and troll away forever, its what they do.
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Hi BC,
Please don't leave. Your postings are always interesting and tell us about a world many of us don't know or even are not aware of.
Just to say, why would you remove your postings? Don't you feel that those were good posting? For sure, it happens that we post something that was not really so great.
So, I hope you change your mind...
Best regards
Erik
When I have time, which is limited I try to remove my posts from long ago so I'll be empty when I leave. I loved sharing but have a dislike for the pundints that can only write but not do.
I'm sorry to go, but dislike very much the talkers, none doers.
I can't wait until I clear my last post. This one may be it.
IMO
BC
PS
To Chris and the moderators if you can clear my posts and proprietary data off this site easily please do, then I will close my account. Thank You. James
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To Chris and the moderators if you can clear my posts and proprietary data off this site easily please do, then I will close my account. Thank You. James
What a shame...... your contributions have been really appreciated.
Victor
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Hi BC,
Please don't leave. Your postings are always interesting and tell us about a world many of us don't know or even are not aware of.
So, I hope you change your mind...
+10
Besides, why go because of ths thead, Edmund wasn't even being argumentative for once, ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I strongly agree with Erik. You, BC, bring a perspective of the working pro and you tell us the complexity involved in your work and how much effort is required to get such magnificent shots. Also your description of what happened in Dallas and its aftermath was moving. We appreciate your posts as you teach and help us learn. And sometimes your posts have humour as well.
Hi BC,
Please don't leave. Your postings are always interesting and tell us about a world many of us don't know or even are not aware of.
Just to say, why would you remove your postings? Don't you feel that those were good posting? For sure, it happens that we post something that was not really so great.
So, I hope you change your mind...
Best regards
Erik
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When I have time, which is limited I try to remove my posts from long ago so I'll be empty when I leave. I loved sharing but have a dislike for the pundints that can only write but not do.
Sorry James,
As much as I appreciate your opinion/perspective on things () even if I might not fully agree with everything, I don't see why one would like to remove one's contributions, unless one has come to significantly different insights about their relevance (but nut even then ..., just say so).
I'm sorry to go, but dislike very much the talkers, none doers.
I can't wait until I clear my last post. This one may be it.
I hope you are not suicidal or something like that, but I'd say, don't.
Cheers,
Bart
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There are a couple of members tht are much much worse and definetely rude as rotten and should be banned once in a while until they learn to be a little nicer to fellows here. Edmund probably just have too much time free, in my opinion he's just demoniacally occurrent.
James gone will be a real lost though.
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+10
Besides, why go because of ths thead, Edmund wasn't even being argumentative for once, ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, I like your sense of humor ;)
Edmund
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J,
I repeat, I am sorry that you feel this way, no offense was intended.
I can see that you are sensitive to criticism and will refrain in the future.
Bernard's comment is quite perceptive :)
Handshake?
Edmund.