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Author Topic: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?  (Read 45250 times)

synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2015, 07:08:49 am »

Has Leica ever made any public statement backing up your hope that they may do something like this some day?

Cheers,
Bernard

+1.
We have been hearing this pipe dream for a while now, with no concrete annoucement or even a rumor to back it up.

Making purchase decisions based on wishful thinking is... Interesting to say the least. As it stands CURRENTLY, there is nothing this camera can offer that puts it head and shoulders above the Sony, even at the same price.

For the price of one SL, one can buy an A7R2 AND A7S2 for stills and video, with some spare change. That's kinda hard to ignore.
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2015, 07:24:40 am »

I like your thinking, and was also hoping for a central shutter switching the SL, like the the S, but I'm not sure activating and using the leaf shutter in medium format lenses will be possible.

Why not? it's the same process as with any other camera that also has a focal plane shutter... they do claim full compatibility with the S lenses, don't they? It's obvious by the Leica offering the zoom lenses first (yet naming the 601 body as pro camera), that they consider the S owners as having this for a back up for their primes as well as using it (it being mirrorless) as a single shot back with Sinar view cameras with the same (S) lenses which will provide the required image circle for movements...

I would also expect a multishot "true color" (I bet you my hat -don't have any  ;D - they are working on this) version of the SL to complete the system... Noticed how wide the mount is and how the sensor is positioned in it as to receive light without anything blocking it even at the corners? ...it is obvious that they have aimed for a use instead of an MFDB with view cameras. They didn't buy Sinar to "just have it" and lose money on it... did they?
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2015, 07:35:42 am »

Has Leica ever made any public statement backing up your hope that they may do something like this some day?

Cheers,
Bernard

Oh yes they did! They actually putted it in production by offering the S adapter from the day one... Now all communication with camera and S lenses is established and ready to work! One would only require the front standard of a view camera (it being an S lens mount) to be wired internally with the rear standard (where the camera will mount) and would control the S lens exactly as if he would have the S adapter on it!  There is no further research needed whatsoever... just a cable (or internal wiring) to connect the two... Even C645 lenses and the Hassy H lenses will work on the view camera if one adds to the lens mount the "H" or the "C" adapter....
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2015, 08:12:35 am »



For the price of one SL, one can buy an A7R2 AND A7S2 for stills and video, with some spare change. That's kinda hard to ignore.

The Leica gives 10 Bit video the Sony's do not
The Leica has what may be a significantly better viewfinder

The viewfinder and Leica's claims about are very interesting

Their claim on AF has been mooted by typical low light issues (ref DPReview), albeit some may not be affected in typical use and the AF may be otherwise quite good as they are using a new method of dual lens element drive to increase AF speed

Too much negativity me thinks...

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telyt

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2015, 08:15:39 am »

What does it offer that no-one else does, for a third the price?

I'd like to compare viewfinders, multi-shot file quality, shutter vibration, responsiveness and a few other features before drawing any conclusions.  My a7II's viewfinder, while much preferable to the D800 (IMHO), leaves a lot to be desired and the loss of bit depth when using multi-shot mode and lossy compression compromise the RAW file quality.  The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with adapted lenses it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec and switching EVC on or off requires menu diving.  There's a lot of room for improvement in the a7-series.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 08:51:53 am by wildlightphoto »
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2015, 08:57:15 am »

I'd like to compare viewfinders, multi-shot file quality, shutter vibration and a few other features before drawing any conclusions.  My a7II's viewfinder, while much preferable to the D800 (IMHO), leaves a lot to be desired and the loss of bit depth when using multi-shot mode and lossy compression compromise the file quality.  The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with adapted lenses it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec.  There's a lot of room for improvement in the a7-series.

Shutter vibration with the A7rII is minimal. Lossy compression has been eliminated with the latest firmware update - there's now an option for uncompressed RAW. What's wrong with the viewfinder? It's not an action viewfinder (weak battery = slow processor = increased viewfinder lag) but, for anything other than action, it's more than good enough. And, if you're shooting fast action, you're probably going to be using an SLR anyway.

On the other hand, you're losing a lot of resolution (24MP vs 42MP), and, going on past record, likely a bit of DR as well. So, essentially, you're trading a few 'soft' features (which may or may not matter, depending on shooting style) for the loss of some 'hard' image quality (resolution), which affects each and every file - even if you only need 24MP, a 24MP file derived from downsampling a 42MP file is almost always better than a native 24MP file.

I can't see too many people finding that a worthwhile tradeoff, particularly at three times the price.

Still, I'm very interested in seeing what Sony brings out with its upcoming 'professional' E-mount camera - let's hope it's based around the A7r sensor or its successor (or comes in a R and S version, like the A7) and has all the missing features such as dual cards, faster AF, less viewfinder lag, etc.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:02:00 am by shadowblade »
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2015, 09:18:50 am »

I'd quite like Nikon to produce an A7 competitor. I couldn't really care less about Leica

Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2015, 09:38:10 am »

I'd quite like Nikon to produce an A7 competitor. I couldn't really care less about Leica

IMO, Leica is only to some extend a "Sony competitor"... the real aim behind the camera is to "integrate it within the rest of the Leica/Sinar offerings" as to increase the appeal of the whole system to a pro adding the solutions that a mirrorless camera & entry level MFDB would... That's why Leica insists to the "pro" labeling when introducing the product... If one is not related with the rest of Leica/Sinar products, it's natural to look at it as a standing alone product...

I would agree with you that a mirrorless Nikon (and/or Canon) would be an interesting proposal as alternative to Sony, but aren't they late as to claim the leadership now? ...Could it be that they "lost the train" thinking of mirrorless as of small sensor "tourist" products like the Nikon 1 and such?
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Chuck Fan

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2015, 09:59:27 am »

I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 10:02:46 am by Chuck Fan »
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telyt

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2015, 10:04:15 am »

Shutter vibration with the A7rII is minimal. Lossy compression has been eliminated with the latest firmware update - there's now an option for uncompressed RAW.

Not on the a7II.  24 MP is more than enough for me, bigger files will slow my computer too much if the S2 RAW files are any indication.

Quote
What's wrong with the viewfinder? It's not an action viewfinder (weak battery = slow processor = increased viewfinder lag) but, for anything other than action, it's more than good enough. And, if you're shooting fast action, you're probably going to be using an SLR anyway.

The SL's maximum frame rate is 11 frames per second with a deep buffer.  This suggests suitability for action.  I prefer the a7II's viewfinder over any DSLR viewfinder I've used - the accuracy and real-time exposure feedback are more than enough reason, and if I used AF the elimination of the AFMA bandaid-on-a-kludge would also be plenty of reason to avoid a DLSR.  The a7II viewfinder's first magnification step is too big.  I'd prefer the 3x/10x steps of the SL.

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On the other hand, you're losing a lot of resolution (24MP vs 42MP)

I thought the megapixel wars were over.  Or is the D4's 16 MP enough?

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and, going on past record, likely a bit of DR as well.

making assumptions?  You know what they say about that...

Quote
Still, I'm very interested in seeing what Sony brings out with its upcoming 'professional' E-mount camera - let's hope it's based around the A7r sensor or its successor (or comes in a R and S version, like the A7) and has all the missing features such as dual cards, faster AF, less viewfinder lag, etc.

You can get the dual cards and less viewfinder lag along with 11 frames/sec on the SL.  AF performance remains to be seen (I'm not going to jump to any conclusions).
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synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2015, 10:08:13 am »

"Tourist product" Nikon 1 has a better AF system than this spanky new "Professional" Leica. Even the very first version.
Just saying. Carry on.
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2015, 11:02:16 am »

I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Only if they intend to use the same EF or F-mount as their current SLRs.

If they want to create a new mount (EF-M won't work for full frame) then they're also starting from scratch.

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Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.

Canon, maybe. Sony could seriously hinder Nikon's attempts any time by refusing to sell them sensors. Although they could probably profit even more by just concentrating on developing better-and-better sensors (and on-sensor AF systems) and selling them to every other manufacturer. After all, electronics, not optical systems, is Sony's forte.
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2015, 11:13:28 am »

Not on the a7II.  24 MP is more than enough for me, bigger files will slow my computer too much if the S2 RAW files are any indication.

Get a faster computer. I routinely handle 200MP stitched panoramas with dozens of layers without trouble.

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The SL's maximum frame rate is 11 frames per second with a deep buffer.  This suggests suitability for action.  I prefer the a7II's viewfinder over any DSLR viewfinder I've used - the accuracy and real-time exposure feedback are more than enough reason, and if I used AF the elimination of the AFMA bandaid-on-a-kludge would also be plenty of reason to avoid a DLSR.  The a7II viewfinder's first magnification step is too big.  I'd prefer the 3x/10x steps of the SL.

So, basically, it's the mirrorless D4s as compared to Sony's mirrorless D810. Except without a stable of action-oriented long lenses that an action camera requires to function to its full potential.

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I thought the megapixel wars were over.  Or is the D4's 16 MP enough?

It never ended. Just as the fps, ISO and DR wars have never ended.

As a landscape shooter, I could use 96MP (12000x8000px) and 17 stops of DR.

If you shoot action, no doubt you could use 25fps and a clean ISO 25600.

Quote
making assumptions?  You know what they say about that...

Extrapolating. Unless they've made a big new advancement in sensor technology (over and above Exmor) it's a reasonable extrapolation. Just like the 5Ds's performance was pretty much predicted before it came out.

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You can get the dual cards and less viewfinder lag along with 11 frames/sec on the SL.  AF performance remains to be seen (I'm not going to jump to any conclusions).

I don't need 11fps (I barely need 2fps) but need more than 24MP, regardless of the rest of the camera.
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2015, 12:18:28 pm »

"Tourist product" Nikon 1 has a better AF system than this spanky new "Professional" Leica. Even the very first version.
Just saying. Carry on.
That's natural... with that size of  sensor one hardly needs focusing on anything... Good spot, good spot... you seem "focused"... keep on!  :P
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synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2015, 12:35:48 pm »

That's natural... with that size of  sensor one hardly needs focusing on anything... Good spot, good spot... you seem "focused"... keep on!  :P

Your troll-game is so, so weak, Theo.
You should stay under the bridge until you get better at it.

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deanwork

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2015, 12:41:26 pm »

You are exactly right. Every time some new feature or design comes out everyone says oh this company is dead or that company is dead or its a whole new world etc. Fact is, this is still the infancy of the digital camera revolution. 10 years from now we will view all these products as hopelessly antiquated.  I remember when people used to say why would anyone want a sensor larger than 24 mp. The reason you would want a 100 and larger mp camera is to crop out details within a frame, which people do constantly, and blow those up in print form. I do 40x60 prints all the time from 37 and 42 mp cameras and your damn right I wish I had more pixels. I also do a lot of drum scans from medium format and 4x5 and there is no comparison between having real pixels and outputting them at the native printer resolution of 360 ppi or 300 ppi as apposed to sending them over there at 150 ppi and/ or interpolating. And that is not with someone cropping the frame, if you do that you are in far worse shape. For me looking at all these comparison frames on a computer screen tells me nothing really.

I know one thing, owning one of these Leica bodies won't make you a better photographer, there is just a snob factor that people will pay just about anything for.




I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2015, 12:57:25 pm »

Your troll-game is so, so weak, Theo.
You should stay under the bridge until you get better at it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thesmokingcamera/9384865800/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/steenheilesen/21322722578/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/26344495@N05/12761756953/

You do seem "focused"! ...never to reply on a subject! Go ahead and buy a Nikon 1 then... why you think the rest of us care on the problems you may have?

We are discussing a new camera from Leica here... Whether you like it or not, it's purely under the use you consider it with... By making continuous negative comments on uses that you don't do (or consider) shows who is the troll.... Did you know that your Credo is rubbish because it can't shoot at 6400 ISO as a much cheaper DF would? ...Or did you know that a 15years old Imacon 132c MFDB will (easily) outperform it on a view camera? ...you do make funny comparisons all the time on uses you know nothing about... it's the definition of trolling!

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synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2015, 01:07:56 pm »



But tell us how you really feel...

Anyway, I am out. It's kinda amusing for a while to follow your pipe dreams about how Leica will conquer the world with a camera exactly like a Sony 1/3rd its price with a technical camera platform of your imagination that no one has promised will come; but when one starts to realize just how sadly delusional you are, the fun wears off.

Have to tend to other matters now.

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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2015, 01:26:09 pm »


Anyway, I am out. It's kinda amusing for a while to follow your pipe dreams about how Leica will conquer the world with a camera exactly like a Sony 1/3rd its price with a technical camera platform of your imagination that no one has promised will come; but when one starts to realize just how sadly delusional you are, the fun wears off.

Have to tend to other matters now.

The definition of trolling... one is out of words all the time and he tries to insult people!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 04:32:10 pm by Theodoros »
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michael

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2015, 01:53:12 pm »

No more personal attacks, please.

Michael
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