Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Theodoros on October 19, 2015, 03:33:49 pm

Title: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 19, 2015, 03:33:49 pm
It seems that Leica will be announcing a mirrorless with EVF and FF sensor in the following days (probably tomorrow). Since the T mount is (more than) wide enough to accept a FF sensor, it looks that it will be a T mount with FF sensor (just like Sony A7 was from the NEX)...

Now since these kind of cameras seem ideal for use with the new "mini size" view cameras from Arca (universalis) & Cambo (Actus) instead of an MFDB, one would expect (the in family) Sinar to also enter the mini view camera competition and thus Leica's move seems very sensible indeed as it would provide a complete mini view camera combination (with S lenses mount included? ...that would mean Contax C645 also..). Very interesting if it proves true!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 19, 2015, 03:54:31 pm
At the rumored price of roughly one Hasselblad CFV50c back, I am sure it will be a "direct competitor " to the Sony and of course, supersede every MFDB ever made and will also make you toast in the morning.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 19, 2015, 04:12:34 pm
At the rumored price of roughly one Hasselblad CSV50c back, I am sure it will be a "direct competitor " to the Sony and of course, supersede every MFDB ever made and will also make you toast in the morning.
Hi Synn... what was the rumored price you refer to?  I don't expect any FF camera to cost more than double the price of its APS-C counterpart... May be you prejudge with your brains left with your "XF body dream"?  ;D
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BJL on October 19, 2015, 04:33:44 pm
Hi Synn... what was the rumored price you refer to?  I don't expect any FF camera to cost more than double the price of its APS-C counterpart... May be you prejudge with your brains left with your "XF body dream"?  ;D
The Leica T ($1600) is a rear-screen only ("viewfinder-free") model, comparable (apart from Leica magic and its older 16MP sensor) to the entry level Sony a5100, currently about US$400.  With Sony (and more generally) the price gap from such "viewfinder-less" models and the cheapest 36x24mm format models us often a factor of four or five.  With the Leica T costing four times as much as the Sony a5100, it is reasonable to expect that any new Leica will likewise come at a price several time greater its Sony counterpart.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 19, 2015, 04:49:40 pm
The Leica T ($1600) is a rear-screen only ("viewfinder-free") model, comparable (apart from Leica magic and its older 16MP sensor) to the entry level Sony a5100, currently about US$400.  With Sony (and more generally) the price gap from such "viewfinder-less" models and the cheapest 36x24mm format models us often a factor of four or five.  With the Leica T costing four times as much as the Sony a5100, it is reasonable to expect that any new Leica will likewise come at a price several time greater its Sony counterpart.

The 5100 is an entry level camera sharing only the mount with the rest of the series... Leica doesn't have to improve the body quality of the T, not of the screen or the buttons... they only have to put the FF sensor in the same mount and a same cost (even if the aesthetics will be slightly different) body as well as the rest of the peripherals... Never the less, it is very sensible that this should be at a significantly lesser cost than the M...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: jjj on October 19, 2015, 05:23:53 pm
People buy Leicas partially because they are expensive.
No much point in them making a cheap one.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: mcbroomf on October 19, 2015, 05:33:28 pm
Rumored to be ~$10k with the 28-90 zoom

Leica SL Typ601 camera:
– Sensor 24MP CMOS
– Full autofocus support
– 4K Video

New SL lenses:
Leica Vario-ELMARIT-SL 1:. 2.8-4 / 24-90 mm ​​ASPH
Leica Apo-Vario-ELMARIT-SL 1: 2.8-4 / 90-280 mm
Leica Summilux-SL 1: 1.4 / 50 mm ASPH.
Summilux-TL 35 mm ASPH.
Macro-ELMARIT-TL 60 mm ASPH.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 19, 2015, 05:37:32 pm
The 5100 is an entry level camera sharing only the mount with the rest of the series...

No, it has the same sensor as the a6000 with a super fast on chip AF.

I have been using one for more than a year and this thing is just amazing!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 19, 2015, 05:58:19 pm
It's other things that concern me than being involved in a stupid conversation of guessing a price that will be know in a couple of days or so...

"Does one knows the sensor to mount distance of the T"? ...that's what I'd like to know... because if it is less than the A and given that "T" mount is wider than the "a", this camera would be even better to use on a mini view camera instead of a digital back with my C645 lenses... and since the sensor is expected to be a cropped version of the S007 one... then, ...pheeeeeewww! ...now, where is that new Sinar mini view camera?  8)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rogan on October 19, 2015, 09:06:35 pm
I own the Q and the A7rII
The Q may be my favorite camera ever to shoot with but don't fool yourself, the files aren't close. I'm guessing the SL and the Q are the same chip and basic camera guts. The Q is crazy fast AF, awesome EVF and the manual focus is heads above sony's. But launching with one prime and two zooms? I don't shoot Leica for zooms. And sorry but 24 mp isn't enough for that $$. I want to crop if needed to 24 mp.
That all said, the Q is insane as a street camera and if the made a fixed lens 50mm I would buy it as well. But if image quality and retail/sharpness is important this won't be close to the sony's.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 19, 2015, 10:05:31 pm
Leica (and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad) is becoming a relic of the film era, a company whose camera division subsists on nostalgia and name recognition more than actual performance. In a way, it has become a luxury label in the same vein as Prada or Rolex - their gear commands high prices without being objectively better than their competitors. In a way, their price commands rarity, which reinforces their exclusivity as a luxury product, which, in a positive feedback loop, justifies their high prices.

Yes, they do make good gear - their lenses are equal with the best. But Zeiss lenses (and some Sigma, Canon and Nikon lenses) perform just as well on any measurable level, and cost a quarter to half as much. Their bodies are well-constructed, but performance is limited - their sensor isn't the best out there (nor is it the worst), there's no option for AF, no dual cards, etc. And, unlike the film days, you can't just swap in a better kind of film every time one is released.

Back in the film days, you could justify a high price point because the camera would serve you well for 10, 20 or more years and keep up with the competition for all that time. Not so with digital - any body you buy is going to be obsolete in a few years, unable to keep pace with the performance of the latest electronics, whether it's a $500 Rebel or an $8k Leica. Which becomes much harder to justify for anyone using it as a photographic tool rather than a status symbol.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 19, 2015, 10:13:26 pm
Exactly. Who is going to make these Leica chips? Who cares about the Leica name. You can put these old Leica lenses on the Sony and use manually. Who needs Leica. Photography as we knew it is over. This is ALL about consumer electronics now, and may the best chip win. Zeiss will make great lenses for all of them. They are a company that will survive. Hasselblad's days are numbered as well. People are sick and tired of paying three or four times more for a damn name. That's over.

john



Leica (and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad) is becoming a relic of the film era, a company whose camera division subsists on nostalgia and name recognition more than actual performance. In a way, it has become a luxury label in the same vein as Prada or Rolex - their gear commands high prices without being objectively better than their competitors. In a way, their price commands rarity, which reinforces their exclusivity as a luxury product, which, in a positive feedback loop, justifies their high prices.

Yes, they do make good gear - their lenses are equal with the best. But Zeiss lenses (and some Sigma, Canon and Nikon lenses) perform just as well on any measurable level, and cost a quarter to half as much. Their bodies are well-constructed, but performance is limited - their sensor isn't the best out there (nor is it the worst), there's no option for AF, no dual cards, etc. And, unlike the film days, you can't just swap in a better kind of film every time one is released.

Back in the film days, you could justify a high price point because the camera would serve you well for 10, 20 or more years and keep up with the competition for all that time. Not so with digital - any body you buy is going to be obsolete in a few years, unable to keep pace with the performance of the latest electronics, whether it's a $500 Rebel or an $8k Leica. Which becomes much harder to justify for anyone using it as a photographic tool rather than a status symbol.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 19, 2015, 10:37:49 pm
Exactly. Who is going to make these Leica chips? Who cares about the Leica name. You can put these old Leica lenses on the Sony and use manually. Who needs Leica. Photography as we knew it is over. This is ALL about consumer electronics now, and may the best chip win. Zeiss will make great lenses for all of them. They are a company that will survive. Hasselblad's days are numbered as well. People are sick and tired of paying three or four times more for a damn name. That's over.

john

You know a company's really nuked the fridge when it takes a cheap camera (the guts of which are made by someone else), covers it with ostrich skin and rare woods, then markets it to celebrities for five times the price.

Hasselblad's already done it, and Leica's come close (everything but the garish decoration) - can't be long before they go the whole distance and release a solid-gold, diamond-encrusted A7 for $20k.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 19, 2015, 11:33:45 pm
The S pricing is high but ends up being compared to even more unreasonably priced P1 and Hassy, so somehow it feels almost acceptable (less so when comparing actual performance).

If the rumors are accurate for the pricing of their FF offering then I sadly predict a failure.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on October 20, 2015, 04:34:09 am
Would people expect a Leica FF MILC to be the same price as the Sony A7 series? Really??

Leica are cleverly making very good digital cameras, from which the Q is their current technology showroom. Keep the simplicity, keep the lens quality, add the tech where it is needed. Same thing will happen with the L, or TL, or whatever it will be called.

Yes, Leica are expensive, so what is new? Move one.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 20, 2015, 05:24:13 am
Would people expect a Leica FF MILC to be the same price as the Sony A7 series? Really??

Leica are cleverly making very good digital cameras, from which the Q is their current technology showroom. Keep the simplicity, keep the lens quality, add the tech where it is needed. Same thing will happen with the L, or TL, or whatever it will be called.

Yes, Leica are expensive, so what is new? Move one.

Keep them expensive and no-one will buy them, except celebrities and well-off hipsters using them mainly as status symbols. Not when they perform no better than cameras a third the price.

You no longer buy a camera and expect to use it for 10-20 years. They're throwaway accessories, similar to smartphones, to be used and then discarded when they are superseded by newer models. You can't apply the economics of the old, film-based model to the vastly-different way the digital system works.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 06:31:17 am
I believe that many people have the wrong idea about Leica... IMO, Leica traditionally aims to offer the best IQ possible out of any manufacturer and it factors the assisting parameters (ergonomics, build quality, reliability, functionality) as high as no other maker. IMO, they try to price their equipment as low as possible, but -obviously- the quality parameters add to cost... The recent pricing policy on the S-series, is a proof of the above... They now offer better performance than ever at near half the price than when the product started its career...

There was a very difficult path for Leica to retain its values (offering the best IQ possible) with them being late into the digital market as there was a (new) parameter involved in which they had no experience at all during the film days... that being the sensor! However... they seem to work highly on the matter as to not only catch-up, but surely to beat the competition as soon as possible and this shows again with the later introductions (S series & Q)... Another proof is that they have stick into the 6μm pixel size in all their exclusive sensors, which (I believe) they won't abandon unless they reach the level of performance that worths the Leica name... But none can argue that the more their recent products are appreciated, the better their pricing becomes!

I believe that the new camera will have a sensor that will be very closely related to a cropped version of the S 007 series, which would mean that it would be among the best performing sensors in the FF market... As for the body pricing, I strongly believe that the build quality will justify it better than ever before and also that it can't be more than the Q (since it will have no lens) but it will be significantly less than the "M" series too (it being a "T"-series that is the introductory interchangeable lens series). Never the less, I believe that all the later Leica introductions will be of surprisingly high sensor performance from what people expect having older Leicas in mind and that the next generation of sensors will be second to none in the market. I believe that the rate they introduce new sensors one being better than the other is a proof of that and that this rate won't slow down soon...

As a conclusion, I am sure that they won't be satisfied unless their sensors are on par with the same level of quality that accompanies the rest of the parameters they offer in their cameras and that their pricing will become better and better, as their market section keeps expanding with out ever making a compromise in quality... it's the Leica tradition! ...it's what kept them alive and kicking butts!

P.S. I also believe that they have big plans for Sinar... and since Sinar is expected to soon enter the "mini view camera" market that is aimed to use mirrorless cameras instead of a digital back, I believe that this camera is designed to perform this task as a major target behind the design... a parameter that has being highly (and constantly) ignored by the participants in this discussion.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 07:39:20 am
Here it is then.... http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/look-here-first-images-of-the-new-leica-sl-with-lenses/

A clear A7 competitor using T mount! ...I guess I should say "bingo" too... I also expect that pricing on the shops will be a lot different.... kind of the same price policy as with the S-007...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 20, 2015, 07:41:26 am
You no longer buy a camera and expect to use it for 10-20 years. They're throwaway accessories, similar to smartphones, to be used and then discarded when they are superseded by newer models. You can't apply the economics of the old, film-based model to the vastly-different way the digital system works.

Some folk just use cameras because they love 'em.

Would you go back and shoot professionally with a Canon D30 these days? And that's only 15 years old.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 20, 2015, 07:53:42 am
I believe that many people have the wrong idea about Leica... IMO, Leica traditionally aims to offer the best IQ possible out of any manufacturer and it factors the assisting parameters (ergonomics, build quality, reliability, functionality) as high as no other maker. IMO, they try to price their equipment as low as possible, but -obviously- the quality parameters add to cost... The recent pricing policy on the S-series, is a proof of the above... They now offer better performance than ever at near half the price than when the product started its career...

There was a very difficult path for Leica to retain its values (offering the best IQ possible) with them being late into the digital market as there was a (new) parameter involved in which they had no experience at all during the film days... that being the sensor! However... they seem to work highly on the matter as to not only catch-up, but surely to beat the competition as soon as possible and this shows again with the later introductions (S series & Q)...


Wow. I haven't seen a hard sell pitch like this from the ACTUAL sales people on this forum. Go easy on the Kool-aid a bit, bro.

Quote from: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/look-here-first-images-of-the-new-leica-sl-with-lenses/
The price with 24-90mm as kit lens will be around 10.000 Euro

Sony A7 "Direct competitor" indeed.
I stand corrected, at this price, it not only is a direct competitor to the Sony, it will also supersede every MFDB ever made, will  make you toast in the morning AND babysit your kids while you enjoy a night out with the wife!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 20, 2015, 07:59:57 am
Here it is then.... http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/look-here-first-images-of-the-new-leica-sl-with-lenses/

A clear A7 competitor using T mount! ...I guess I should say "bingo" too... I also expect that pricing on the shops will be a lot different.... kind of the same price policy as with the S-007...

Did I read correctly the 6,900 Euro for the body and 10,000 Euro for the zoom lens? ;)

That would get you one Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR... and 4 additional copies to distribute to your friends...

This cannot be correct.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Rob C on October 20, 2015, 10:11:20 am
Never shot with a Canon in my life and never want to.


More kindred spirit than you thought!

Rob
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Rob C on October 20, 2015, 10:22:00 am
I was thinking: as I've black-taped out all the many logo/funny bit areas on both my digi cameras, what about if I buy a packet of red dot stickies from the shop and stick one on top of the tape at the pentaprisms (which probably aren't pentaprisms anyway...): will I feel better about myself? I know it's bound to improve my 'work', of course, but then I might get mugged.

Weak jokes aside, if that lottery does come up, as I expect it to twice a week, then I would certainly buy one of the big Leica reflex cameras. Having experienced printing from Leica negs and trannies, I just fancy the idea very much indeed. They were special lenses in the 60s, at least.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Rob C on October 20, 2015, 10:23:53 am
Rob, I'm pretty sure we are kindred spirits in our belief that photography worth a light has far more to do with the photographer and subject than any camera.


My twin!

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on October 20, 2015, 11:10:02 am
Keep them expensive and no-one will buy them, except celebrities and well-off hipsters using them mainly as status symbols. Not when they perform no better than cameras a third the price.

You no longer buy a camera and expect to use it for 10-20 years. They're throwaway accessories, similar to smartphones, to be used and then discarded when they are superseded by newer models. You can't apply the economics of the old, film-based model to the vastly-different way the digital system works.

Well, for as long as I can remember, Leicas have always cost more than other brands of cameras. Partly due to high construction quality, to high lens quality, and yes, to "alluring" factors. I think you are not correct; people who buy Leicas are not going to discard them when a new model comes along... and the fact is, if you buy a Leica, you know that they are not built like throw away discardable items. And you are willing to pay more for it!

Leica has never been about performing better or worse than other brands costing much less, and actually performing better. And they are doing well thank you, go figure.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2015, 12:41:05 pm
Never shot with a Canon in my life and never want to.
Rob, I'm pretty sure we are kindred spirits in our belief that photography worth a light has far more to do with the photographer and subject than any camera.
So why not use a Canon then?  :P
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2015, 12:46:57 pm
So the camera does matter than or is that the photographer here has the problem?  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2015, 01:35:09 pm
An allergy of sorts then?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Chairman Bill on October 20, 2015, 01:53:56 pm
... will  make you toast in the morning AND babysit your kids while you enjoy a night out with the wife!

Surely it should take the wife and kids out, and leave you free for a night in with the babysitter (early 20s, long, long legs, curves etc).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Manoli on October 20, 2015, 01:57:12 pm
Surely it should take the wife and kids out, and leave you free for a night in with the babysitter (early 20s, long, long legs, curves etc).

It does - it's an optional extra.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Manoli on October 20, 2015, 02:04:33 pm
seems it's the first CSC to accept Leica-S lenses via adapter with full AF ..
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 02:29:35 pm
seems it's the first CSC to accept Leica-S lenses via adapter with full AF ..

This is more important than it looks at first site... It means that the Sinar entrance to the mini view camera market (like the Actus) will be fully electronic having this as an MFDB and S series lenses... It also means that Hasselblad H & Contax 645 lenses will be fully compatible...  It may also mean that a future model that will be able to export RAW video will be able to serve as an excellent cinema camera (in combination with a Sinar view camera or without one) able to compete with RED & Arri....
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Manoli on October 20, 2015, 02:35:53 pm
Leica sl (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601)
It's many things, but a compact system camera???

Too early to say, Keith.
But let's put it this way:

For the price of PhaseOne XF IQ140 kit, you could buy a Leica S (006) with 70mm Summarit and an SL with interoperable (via adapter) S, M, R and the new terminology L- mount lenses.

It also means that Hasselblad H & Contax 645 lenses will be fully compatible...

You don't know that yet. S lenses will fit via an adapter. Nothing I've read yet says that the S adapter for Hassy etc will fit on the SL

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 02:50:16 pm

You don't know that yet. S lenses will fit via an adapter. Nothing I've read yet says that the S adapter for Hassy etc will fit on the SL
The H & C adapters for the S will work on the S adapter for the SL...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Manoli on October 20, 2015, 02:53:44 pm
The H & C adapters for the S will work on the S adapter for the SL...

So you're going to piggy back adapters ?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: AreBee on October 20, 2015, 03:01:59 pm
Manoli,

Quote
So you're going to piggy back adapters ?

If the S/SL adapter is as well constructed as the H/S and C/S adapters then adverse effect from stacking adapters may be a non-issue.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 03:14:25 pm
Manoli,

If the S/SL adapter is as well constructed as the H/S and C/S adapters then adverse effect from stacking adapters may be a non-issue.

Would one expect the S to SL adapter to exhibit lens play? ... ;D ...I thought we are talking Leica!  ;D
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Manoli on October 20, 2015, 03:35:20 pm
Rob,

If the S/SL adapter is as well constructed as the H/S and C/S adapters then adverse effect from stacking adapters may be a non-issue.

Indeed it may be a non-issue, but before assuming it is I think it warrants a double check, not least because I've seen nothing from Leica or the first reports to confirm this, and there is a question as to 'if' and 'how well' the AF conversion will work. I don't recall any beta testers even having seen the S to SL adapter yet.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 20, 2015, 03:43:44 pm
This is more important than it looks at first site... It means that the Sinar entrance to the mini view camera market (like the Actus) will be fully electronic having this as an MFDB and S series lenses... It also means that Hasselblad H & Contax 645 lenses will be fully compatible...  It may also mean that a future model that will be able to export RAW video will be able to serve as an excellent cinema camera (in combination with a Sinar view camera or without one) able to compete with RED & Arri....

I like how using "will" instead of "might" automatically turns pipe dreams into reality!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 03:44:35 pm
Rob,

Indeed it may be a non-issue, but before assuming it is I think it warrants a double check, not least because I've seen nothing from Leica or the first reports to confirm this, and there is a question as to 'if' and 'how well' the AF conversion will work. I don't recall any beta testers even having seen the S to SL adapter yet.

AF performance has nothing to do with the adapter... the motor inside the lens doesn't "know" what AF system is used... it just obeys to the order! My C645 lenses are lightspeed fast and accurate when used on my Nikons via the JAS adapter... just like the AF performance of the AF-S lenses where... In fact, I expect (I'm sure that) the adapter of the S lenses on SL, will also permit leaf shutter operation of both the S lenses that have the leaf shutter, as well as the H lenses if one adds the H adapter on.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: holyhikaru on October 20, 2015, 03:46:16 pm
After seeing the specification, here are my thoughts

- Form factor: The camera itself is NOT small. Some website wrote this "The SL is one of the largest mirrorless cameras yet made". Plus, the zoom kit lens is VERY big.
- 24 MP: I think it is time to move on from this number.

At first when I saw the rumor I was thinking about cancel my preorder on S 007 and grab this one, but I change my mind after seeing the specification. I feel my Sony A7rII + M lens + Otus lens can do better than SL 601. I don't care about autofocus because I always do manual focus.

Only interesting thing I found from today announcement is Noctilux 50/f1 lens.

PS. This camera would be fantastic camera if they announced it 1 year ago before the world learn about Sony A7rII.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 03:48:21 pm
I like how using "will" instead of "might" automatically turns pipe dreams into reality!


That's because you still use Nikkor lenses with your Nikons...  ;)  ;D  :P
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2015, 04:27:08 pm
Surely it should take the wife and kids out, and leave you free for a night in with the babysitter (early 20s, long, long legs, curves etc).

You're worse than a Phase dealer - you must be either a divorce lawyer or a VD specialist ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MarkL on October 20, 2015, 05:34:55 pm
I believe that many people have the wrong idea about Leica... IMO, Leica traditionally aims to offer the best IQ possible out of any manufacturer

It has been a long time since a Leica offered better IQ than the top pro cameras in the same class. With Leica now, it is a case of constantly too little too late but since they are luxury items rather than workhorse cameras this seems to be OK for the people that buy them.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 20, 2015, 06:10:21 pm
More toys for old rich people who still think about Cartier-Bresson. I think they should make a platinum model that gives you massages.

Sony A7 is a very durable exceptionally well made device and probably about the price of Leica lens cap. My Nikon D800 is made very well too, and with a small ergonomic body. With either of these cameras, at a really fair and sellable price, you can put excellent glass on them and you have an excellent camera for just about any purpose. By the time they wear out we will be shooting 200 mp cameras, or at the very least 100 mp. and all of this stuff Leica is selling now will look like an iPhone 3c.

john



It has been a long time since a Leica offered better IQ than the top pro cameras in the same class. With Leica now, it is a case of constantly too little too late but since they are luxury items rather than workhorse cameras this seems to be OK for the people that buy them.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 20, 2015, 06:30:28 pm
Thom Hogan "weighs" in:  http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/leica-makes-third-mirrorles.html   "At nearly five pounds with the zoom lens, this is not a casual camera, to be sure, and is running totally against trend."  My neck hurts from just reading that sentence.

Alan
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 20, 2015, 06:34:54 pm
More toys for old rich people who still think about Cartier-Bresson. I think they should make a platinum model that gives you massages.

Sony A7 is a very durable exceptionally well made device and probably about the price of Leica lens cap. My Nikon D800 is made very well too, and with a small ergonomic body. With either of these cameras, at a really fair and sellable price, you can put excellent glass on them and you have an excellent camera for just about any purpose. By the time they wear out we will be shooting 200 mp cameras, or at the very least 100 mp. and all of this stuff Leica is selling now will look like an iPhone 3c.

john

I really would love to see a vote on how many people want to shoot with 100 or 200mp... I'm really curious... Personally, I use my DF far more than my D800E...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Bo Dez on October 20, 2015, 06:50:29 pm
Leica have just smashed it out of the park. It's the future and I want it.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 20, 2015, 07:41:28 pm
They have just priced themselves out of the market. If they want to survive they need to do what Zeiss does, make great lenses for everybody.





Leica have just smashed it out of the park. It's the future and I want it.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 20, 2015, 08:06:20 pm
Ming Thein has a review up. Not nearly as negative as you guys. Fast and responsive with some quirks. Ok battery life. Good EVF.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 20, 2015, 09:07:51 pm
Ming Thein has a review up. Not nearly as negative as you guys. Fast and responsive with some quirks. Ok battery life. Good EVF.

What does it offer that no-one else does, for a third the price?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 20, 2015, 09:40:19 pm
Maybe that responsiveness gives it a certain usability. Not sluggish and cumbersome. Maybe its fun to use what do I know. I can never afford one anyway :-)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2015, 10:48:25 pm
The Leica T ($1600) is a rear-screen only ("viewfinder-free") model, comparable (apart from Leica magic and its older 16MP sensor) to the entry level Sony a5100, currently about US$400.  With Sony (and more generally) the price gap from such "viewfinder-less" models and the cheapest 36x24mm format models us often a factor of four or five.
By that reasoning, the SL should be priced at $6400-$8000.

. . . it is very sensible that this should be at a significantly lesser cost than the M...
By that reasoning, the SL should cost significanly less thsn $6,400.

In fact:
Quote
The Leica SL Typ 601 will be available from November 16th for $7,450 body-only. The Leica Vario Elmarit-SL 24-90mm F2.8-4 ASPH will cost $4,950.
-- http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0655212186/leica-introduces-sl-type-601-full-frame-mirrorless-camera
So sales of the Sony A7 series are probably safe.

P. S. The EVF resolution is fairly impressive: 4.4million dots probably means SXGA+: 1400x1050 (multiply by three colors to get the "dot count" of 4,410,000).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2015, 11:13:33 pm
Ming Thein has a review up. Not nearly as negative as you guys. Fast and responsive with some quirks. Ok battery life. Good EVF.
Most of the negativity here is about price, weight, and limited lens selection (particularly prime lenses).  Does Ming Thein refute any of those?

The EVF is promising, but are we talking about a $4000 markup for a better EVF than Sony offers?!
Title: Studio samples at DPReview
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 21, 2015, 12:45:00 am
Hi,

DPReviews shows their standard studio shot, see attachments below. The zoom lens used may be very good, but the corners are not really great. The other cameras I checked were tested with primes.

High ISO performance seems to be state of the art.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on October 21, 2015, 04:05:05 am
Most of the negativity here is about price, weight, and limited lens selection (particularly prime lenses).  Does Ming Thein refute any of those?

The EVF is promising, but are we talking about a $4000 markup for a better EVF than Sony offers?!

We need to wait and see how sales go. It is interesting to see how Leica fares once they step out of the M line and go into cameras that others also do. Leica basically have the monopoly of the digital and analogue RF, and that is what gives them their fame, and rightly so.

But once they step out of that zone, inevitably they are compared to other MILC brands and systems, and their value proposition suffers...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 05:17:54 am
What does it offer that no-one else does, for a third the price?

Good question... The answer to it is really complex, it depends on the kind of use that one has in mind... For people that want a camera to do what they would also do with a Sony, it's not much that this Leica could provide them... But don't forget that Leica promotes this as a PRO camera... And if one things about it, it could provide a lot to pros...

1. A platform that would give them access to their ultra high quality leaf shutter lenses...
2. A high quality motion camera with the same very lenses
3. An alternative to an MFDB on a mini view camera that would have total electronic communication with (again) the same lenses (expect a new Sinar mini view camera -the size of an Actus- soon...

Think about it... A pro would only require 4-5 lenses and then an S, this and a mini view camera and perform all tasks they would ever perform (studio, still with movements, video, architecture, high speed strobe use, events, art ...you name it) yet with minimal equipment, maximum of performance and all bought from the same company.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 05:44:59 am
?

An adapter with full compatibility with the S lenses has been announced... (that means access to the Hassalblad H lenses, the C645 lenses and the HTS 1.5x too...) ...expect Hassy-H leaf shutter to work too...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Bo Dez on October 21, 2015, 06:56:48 am
An adapter with full compatibility with the S lenses has been announced... (that means access to the Hassalblad H lenses, the C645 lenses and the HTS 1.5x too...) ...expect Hassy-H leaf shutter to work too...

I like your thinking, and was also hoping for a central shutter switching the SL, like the the S, but I'm not sure activating and using the leaf shutter in medium format lenses will be possible.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 21, 2015, 07:03:49 am
3. An alternative to an MFDB on a mini view camera that would have total electronic communication with (again) the same lenses (expect a new Sinar mini view camera -the size of an Actus- soon...

Has Leica ever made any public statement backing up your hope that they may do something like this some day?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 07:08:49 am
Has Leica ever made any public statement backing up your hope that they may do something like this some day?

Cheers,
Bernard

+1.
We have been hearing this pipe dream for a while now, with no concrete annoucement or even a rumor to back it up.

Making purchase decisions based on wishful thinking is... Interesting to say the least. As it stands CURRENTLY, there is nothing this camera can offer that puts it head and shoulders above the Sony, even at the same price.

For the price of one SL, one can buy an A7R2 AND A7S2 for stills and video, with some spare change. That's kinda hard to ignore.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 07:24:40 am
I like your thinking, and was also hoping for a central shutter switching the SL, like the the S, but I'm not sure activating and using the leaf shutter in medium format lenses will be possible.

Why not? it's the same process as with any other camera that also has a focal plane shutter... they do claim full compatibility with the S lenses, don't they? It's obvious by the Leica offering the zoom lenses first (yet naming the 601 body as pro camera), that they consider the S owners as having this for a back up for their primes as well as using it (it being mirrorless) as a single shot back with Sinar view cameras with the same (S) lenses which will provide the required image circle for movements...

I would also expect a multishot "true color" (I bet you my hat -don't have any  ;D - they are working on this) version of the SL to complete the system... Noticed how wide the mount is and how the sensor is positioned in it as to receive light without anything blocking it even at the corners? ...it is obvious that they have aimed for a use instead of an MFDB with view cameras. They didn't buy Sinar to "just have it" and lose money on it... did they?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 07:35:42 am
Has Leica ever made any public statement backing up your hope that they may do something like this some day?

Cheers,
Bernard

Oh yes they did! They actually putted it in production by offering the S adapter from the day one... Now all communication with camera and S lenses is established and ready to work! One would only require the front standard of a view camera (it being an S lens mount) to be wired internally with the rear standard (where the camera will mount) and would control the S lens exactly as if he would have the S adapter on it!  There is no further research needed whatsoever... just a cable (or internal wiring) to connect the two... Even C645 lenses and the Hassy H lenses will work on the view camera if one adds to the lens mount the "H" or the "C" adapter....
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on October 21, 2015, 08:12:35 am


For the price of one SL, one can buy an A7R2 AND A7S2 for stills and video, with some spare change. That's kinda hard to ignore.

The Leica gives 10 Bit video the Sony's do not
The Leica has what may be a significantly better viewfinder

The viewfinder and Leica's claims about are very interesting

Their claim on AF has been mooted by typical low light issues (ref DPReview), albeit some may not be affected in typical use and the AF may be otherwise quite good as they are using a new method of dual lens element drive to increase AF speed

Too much negativity me thinks...

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 08:15:39 am
What does it offer that no-one else does, for a third the price?

I'd like to compare viewfinders, multi-shot file quality, shutter vibration, responsiveness and a few other features before drawing any conclusions.  My a7II's viewfinder, while much preferable to the D800 (IMHO), leaves a lot to be desired and the loss of bit depth when using multi-shot mode and lossy compression compromise the RAW file quality.  The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with adapted lenses it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec and switching EVC on or off requires menu diving.  There's a lot of room for improvement in the a7-series.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 21, 2015, 08:57:15 am
I'd like to compare viewfinders, multi-shot file quality, shutter vibration and a few other features before drawing any conclusions.  My a7II's viewfinder, while much preferable to the D800 (IMHO), leaves a lot to be desired and the loss of bit depth when using multi-shot mode and lossy compression compromise the file quality.  The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with adapted lenses it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec.  There's a lot of room for improvement in the a7-series.

Shutter vibration with the A7rII is minimal. Lossy compression has been eliminated with the latest firmware update - there's now an option for uncompressed RAW. What's wrong with the viewfinder? It's not an action viewfinder (weak battery = slow processor = increased viewfinder lag) but, for anything other than action, it's more than good enough. And, if you're shooting fast action, you're probably going to be using an SLR anyway.

On the other hand, you're losing a lot of resolution (24MP vs 42MP), and, going on past record, likely a bit of DR as well. So, essentially, you're trading a few 'soft' features (which may or may not matter, depending on shooting style) for the loss of some 'hard' image quality (resolution), which affects each and every file - even if you only need 24MP, a 24MP file derived from downsampling a 42MP file is almost always better than a native 24MP file.

I can't see too many people finding that a worthwhile tradeoff, particularly at three times the price.

Still, I'm very interested in seeing what Sony brings out with its upcoming 'professional' E-mount camera - let's hope it's based around the A7r sensor or its successor (or comes in a R and S version, like the A7) and has all the missing features such as dual cards, faster AF, less viewfinder lag, etc.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Chairman Bill on October 21, 2015, 09:18:50 am
I'd quite like Nikon to produce an A7 competitor. I couldn't really care less about Leica
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 09:38:10 am
I'd quite like Nikon to produce an A7 competitor. I couldn't really care less about Leica

IMO, Leica is only to some extend a "Sony competitor"... the real aim behind the camera is to "integrate it within the rest of the Leica/Sinar offerings" as to increase the appeal of the whole system to a pro adding the solutions that a mirrorless camera & entry level MFDB would... That's why Leica insists to the "pro" labeling when introducing the product... If one is not related with the rest of Leica/Sinar products, it's natural to look at it as a standing alone product...

I would agree with you that a mirrorless Nikon (and/or Canon) would be an interesting proposal as alternative to Sony, but aren't they late as to claim the leadership now? ...Could it be that they "lost the train" thinking of mirrorless as of small sensor "tourist" products like the Nikon 1 and such?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Chuck Fan on October 21, 2015, 09:59:27 am
I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 10:04:15 am
Shutter vibration with the A7rII is minimal. Lossy compression has been eliminated with the latest firmware update - there's now an option for uncompressed RAW.

Not on the a7II.  24 MP is more than enough for me, bigger files will slow my computer too much if the S2 RAW files are any indication.

Quote
What's wrong with the viewfinder? It's not an action viewfinder (weak battery = slow processor = increased viewfinder lag) but, for anything other than action, it's more than good enough. And, if you're shooting fast action, you're probably going to be using an SLR anyway.

The SL's maximum frame rate is 11 frames per second with a deep buffer.  This suggests suitability for action.  I prefer the a7II's viewfinder over any DSLR viewfinder I've used - the accuracy and real-time exposure feedback are more than enough reason, and if I used AF the elimination of the AFMA bandaid-on-a-kludge would also be plenty of reason to avoid a DLSR.  The a7II viewfinder's first magnification step is too big.  I'd prefer the 3x/10x steps of the SL.

Quote
On the other hand, you're losing a lot of resolution (24MP vs 42MP)

I thought the megapixel wars were over.  Or is the D4's 16 MP enough?

Quote
and, going on past record, likely a bit of DR as well.

making assumptions?  You know what they say about that...

Quote
Still, I'm very interested in seeing what Sony brings out with its upcoming 'professional' E-mount camera - let's hope it's based around the A7r sensor or its successor (or comes in a R and S version, like the A7) and has all the missing features such as dual cards, faster AF, less viewfinder lag, etc.

You can get the dual cards and less viewfinder lag along with 11 frames/sec on the SL.  AF performance remains to be seen (I'm not going to jump to any conclusions).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 10:08:13 am
"Tourist product" Nikon 1 has a better AF system than this spanky new "Professional" Leica. Even the very first version.
Just saying. Carry on.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 21, 2015, 11:02:16 am
I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Only if they intend to use the same EF or F-mount as their current SLRs.

If they want to create a new mount (EF-M won't work for full frame) then they're also starting from scratch.

Quote
Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.

Canon, maybe. Sony could seriously hinder Nikon's attempts any time by refusing to sell them sensors. Although they could probably profit even more by just concentrating on developing better-and-better sensors (and on-sensor AF systems) and selling them to every other manufacturer. After all, electronics, not optical systems, is Sony's forte.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 21, 2015, 11:13:28 am
Not on the a7II.  24 MP is more than enough for me, bigger files will slow my computer too much if the S2 RAW files are any indication.

Get a faster computer. I routinely handle 200MP stitched panoramas with dozens of layers without trouble.

Quote
The SL's maximum frame rate is 11 frames per second with a deep buffer.  This suggests suitability for action.  I prefer the a7II's viewfinder over any DSLR viewfinder I've used - the accuracy and real-time exposure feedback are more than enough reason, and if I used AF the elimination of the AFMA bandaid-on-a-kludge would also be plenty of reason to avoid a DLSR.  The a7II viewfinder's first magnification step is too big.  I'd prefer the 3x/10x steps of the SL.

So, basically, it's the mirrorless D4s as compared to Sony's mirrorless D810. Except without a stable of action-oriented long lenses that an action camera requires to function to its full potential.

Quote
I thought the megapixel wars were over.  Or is the D4's 16 MP enough?

It never ended. Just as the fps, ISO and DR wars have never ended.

As a landscape shooter, I could use 96MP (12000x8000px) and 17 stops of DR.

If you shoot action, no doubt you could use 25fps and a clean ISO 25600.

Quote
making assumptions?  You know what they say about that...

Extrapolating. Unless they've made a big new advancement in sensor technology (over and above Exmor) it's a reasonable extrapolation. Just like the 5Ds's performance was pretty much predicted before it came out.

Quote
You can get the dual cards and less viewfinder lag along with 11 frames/sec on the SL.  AF performance remains to be seen (I'm not going to jump to any conclusions).

I don't need 11fps (I barely need 2fps) but need more than 24MP, regardless of the rest of the camera.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 12:18:28 pm
"Tourist product" Nikon 1 has a better AF system than this spanky new "Professional" Leica. Even the very first version.
Just saying. Carry on.
That's natural... with that size of  sensor one hardly needs focusing on anything... Good spot, good spot... you seem "focused"... keep on!  :P
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 12:35:48 pm
That's natural... with that size of  sensor one hardly needs focusing on anything... Good spot, good spot... you seem "focused"... keep on!  :P

Your troll-game is so, so weak, Theo.
You should stay under the bridge until you get better at it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thesmokingcamera/9384865800/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/steenheilesen/21322722578/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/26344495@N05/12761756953/
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 21, 2015, 12:41:26 pm
You are exactly right. Every time some new feature or design comes out everyone says oh this company is dead or that company is dead or its a whole new world etc. Fact is, this is still the infancy of the digital camera revolution. 10 years from now we will view all these products as hopelessly antiquated.  I remember when people used to say why would anyone want a sensor larger than 24 mp. The reason you would want a 100 and larger mp camera is to crop out details within a frame, which people do constantly, and blow those up in print form. I do 40x60 prints all the time from 37 and 42 mp cameras and your damn right I wish I had more pixels. I also do a lot of drum scans from medium format and 4x5 and there is no comparison between having real pixels and outputting them at the native printer resolution of 360 ppi or 300 ppi as apposed to sending them over there at 150 ppi and/ or interpolating. And that is not with someone cropping the frame, if you do that you are in far worse shape. For me looking at all these comparison frames on a computer screen tells me nothing really.

I know one thing, owning one of these Leica bodies won't make you a better photographer, there is just a snob factor that people will pay just about anything for.




I am not sure how Leica, with its price and volume, could ever be a "competitor" to any mainline camera maker.   Leica's maximum conceivable volume would probably be lost in the decimals for Sony.

I am also not sure how companies like Nikon and Canon could "miss the train" on something like Mirrorless FF camera, other than by refusing to ever enter. 

There is not really any substantial first mover advantage, there is not really much of a barrier to entry.  There doesn't seem to be any critical proprietary technology or patents that is hard to get around.   Sony relies partially on poaching in Canon's (and now Nikon's) ecosystems for lenses.    Canon and Nikon both have a far larger native ecosystem of accessories which they can leveraged more easily and securely at any time to support any foray the care to make into mirrorless.

Therefore I don't believe either mirrorless, or Sony, is that much of threat to either Nikon or Canon.  Either Nikon or Canon can enter the FF mirrorless market any time and instantly make life more difficult for Sony in Sony's own environment than Sony could hope to do to Nikon or Canon in their native environments.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 12:57:25 pm
Your troll-game is so, so weak, Theo.
You should stay under the bridge until you get better at it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thesmokingcamera/9384865800/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/steenheilesen/21322722578/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/26344495@N05/12761756953/

You do seem "focused"! ...never to reply on a subject! Go ahead and buy a Nikon 1 then... why you think the rest of us care on the problems you may have?

We are discussing a new camera from Leica here... Whether you like it or not, it's purely under the use you consider it with... By making continuous negative comments on uses that you don't do (or consider) shows who is the troll.... Did you know that your Credo is rubbish because it can't shoot at 6400 ISO as a much cheaper DF would? ...Or did you know that a 15years old Imacon 132c MFDB will (easily) outperform it on a view camera? ...you do make funny comparisons all the time on uses you know nothing about... it's the definition of trolling!

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 01:07:56 pm
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1308216_o.gif)

But tell us how you really feel...

Anyway, I am out. It's kinda amusing for a while to follow your pipe dreams about how Leica will conquer the world with a camera exactly like a Sony 1/3rd its price with a technical camera platform of your imagination that no one has promised will come; but when one starts to realize just how sadly delusional you are, the fun wears off.

Have to tend to other matters now.

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 01:26:09 pm

Anyway, I am out. It's kinda amusing for a while to follow your pipe dreams about how Leica will conquer the world with a camera exactly like a Sony 1/3rd its price with a technical camera platform of your imagination that no one has promised will come; but when one starts to realize just how sadly delusional you are, the fun wears off.

Have to tend to other matters now.

The definition of trolling... one is out of words all the time and he tries to insult people!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: michael on October 21, 2015, 01:53:12 pm
No more personal attacks, please.

Michael
Title: Canon & Nikon have new mirrorless 35mm mounts with adaptors for SLR lenses
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2015, 02:10:45 pm
Only if they intend to use the same EF or F-mount as their current SLRs.

If they want to create a new mount (EF-M won't work for full frame) then they're also starting from scratch.
Canon or Nikon wouldn't have to start from scratch if they introduce a new mirror-less 35mm format with a new, shallower lens mount: they could provide full backward compatibility with their huge SLR lens systems through an adaptor.   Especially since they both already have on-sensor PDAF, so should be able to get good AF performance with those SLR lenses.  It would still be important to have new mirrorless-only lenses at shorter focal lengths, where lenses designed specifically for a mirrorless system can have size and/or performance advantages.
Title: Leica releases a "35mm format EVF system", SL
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2015, 02:32:08 pm
Despite my skepticism in several previous posts, I should say that I do not yet see a case that the Leica SL system is doomed to failure by its price and such.  With prestigious low sales volume brands like Leica, it can be legitimately enough to have some advantages for some relatively small group users who also value those advantages enough to pay the extra.  (And the "Leica extra" is far less than the increment that millions of people pay for prestigious cars that give only slight practical advantages over more mainstream alternatives.) So for example:

- The Leica SL might offer a combination of lens optical quality and good AF speed not matched by any alternative – especially if matching optical quality involves using third party Zeiss lenses.

- The high resolution and reportedly high refresh rate of the EVF combined with 11fps might be a worthwhile advantage over the Sony 7 series, at least for a while.

- The sensor design might work better with adaptor mounted Leica M lenses than other mirrorless bodies do, through better handling of highly off-perpendicual incident light. (Leica hints at this.)


P. S. Since Leica M bodies are already mirrorless, and most DLSRs also have live view on rear-screens, we need a better name than "mirrorless" or "live view camera": I use "EVF system" because having an eye=level EVF for composition and interchangeable lenses is the positive distinguishing combination of features.  I also eschew "full frame" in favor of "35mm" for reasons that have already been thoroughly debated.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 02:57:06 pm
"Tourist product" Nikon 1 has a better AF system than this spanky new "Professional" Leica. Even the very first version.
Just saying. Carry on.

Nikon 1 also generates tourist snap image quality.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 03:00:36 pm
Get a faster computer. I routinely handle 200MP stitched panoramas with dozens of layers without trouble.

Do you process several hundred 200MP files at a time?

Quote
If you shoot action, no doubt you could use 25fps and a clean ISO 25600.

Stereotype.   ::)

Quote
I don't need 11fps (I barely need 2fps) but need more than 24MP, regardless of the rest of the camera.

So it's not the right camera for you.  That doesn't mean it's not right for someone else's needs.
Title: Re: Leica releases a "35mm format EVF system", SL
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 03:03:01 pm
P. S. Since Leica M bodies are already mirrorless, and most DLSRs also have live view on rear-screens, we need a better name than "mirrorless" or "live view camera": I use "EVF system" because having an eye=level EVF for composition and interchangeable lenses is the positive distinguishing combination of features.  I also eschew "full frame" in favor of "35mm" for reasons that have already been thoroughly debated.

I agree, the common terminology can be misleading.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MoreOrLess on October 21, 2015, 03:14:30 pm
Only if they intend to use the same EF or F-mount as their current SLRs.

If they want to create a new mount (EF-M won't work for full frame) then they're also starting from scratch.

Interesting though that I think as you move up to FF saving flange distance becomes less of an advantage than getting rid of the prism/mirror/AF sensor. Just look at these new Leica SL lenses and the idea that saving a couple of cms of flange distance as important becomes a bit of a joke. You can shave quite a lot of height off of a body by going mirrorless with an EVF and I would not be at all supprized to see Canon or especially Nikon take that route. Even if they don't attempting lenses is obviously a option.

Quote
Canon, maybe. Sony could seriously hinder Nikon's attempts any time by refusing to sell them sensors. Although they could probably profit even more by just concentrating on developing better-and-better sensors (and on-sensor AF systems) and selling them to every other manufacturer. After all, electronics, not optical systems, is Sony's forte.

I doubt it, the Sony sensor division has just been spun off as a separate company and surely one of the main reasons for doing that is to make sure its making decisions for its own best interests not looking to help out another part of Sony. Really though even before that they seemed pretty independent, they let Nikon have the 36 MP sensor first and I suspect a lot of the reason the A7r II costs as much as it does is that they've had to pay a big premium to get the new 42 MP sensor first.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 03:22:04 pm
Nikon 1 also generates tourist snap image quality.

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/820823_10151297594443196_1940775022_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Clearly.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Chuck Fan on October 21, 2015, 03:48:00 pm
I doubt it, the Sony sensor division has just been spun off as a separate company and surely one of the main reasons for doing that is to make sure its making decisions for its own best interests not looking to help out another part of Sony. Really though even before that they seemed pretty independent, they let Nikon have the 36 MP sensor first and I suspect a lot of the reason the A7r II costs as much as it does is that they've had to pay a big premium to get the new 42 MP sensor first.

It makes a lot more sense for Sony share holders to spin off sensor division off and have it sell sensors to the highest bidder.   Otherwise, if Sony's camera division isn't doing as well as it can, then the camera division will not only directly hurt the Sony share holders through its own lack luster performance, it would also be a millstone around the neck of the sensor division.   Sony shareholders will receive a double hit.

On the other hand, if Sony sensor division sells to the highest bidder, then Sony share holders would do well regardless of who is winning the camera wars.

 
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 21, 2015, 03:55:11 pm
The idea that Sony will snub certain competitors over sensors is completely unfounded. That is not how business works. For example, Samsung and Apple are at each others throats in the courtroom, but Samsung sells memory to Apple cheaper than it does to its own mobile division because the order value is that much bigger. Same thing with Sony and Nikon . Besides, Nikon works with other fabricators such as Toshiba and Aptina.

The reason Sony spun off their sensor division has nothing to do with competitors. It is simply because of their corporate strategy, which is to make the divisions more accountable. The sensor division has been hitting it out of the park for a while now, but the overall numbers have been bogged down by underperforming divisions such as the mobile phone division. Conversely, the underperforming divisions were "rescued" each quarter by the jewels like the sensor division and the playstation division. Kaz finally had enough and ordered his minions to be accountable for themselves.

Nikon, Pentax, phase, Hasselblad etc. have nothing to worry about in terms of supply and never did.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 21, 2015, 04:01:39 pm
Hi Doug,

The points you make are very interesting. Your findings on EVF vs. OVF are quite interesting as you seem to be a master of manual focus. Thanks for sharing…

Personally, I am a camera on tripod and take my time shooter,  mostly or a happy snapper.

The Leica may be a great camera. For instance I like the idea of a 24-90 lens, 24-70 is a bit short on the long side for me.

Best regards
Erik

Not on the a7II.  24 MP is more than enough for me, bigger files will slow my computer too much if the S2 RAW files are any indication.

The SL's maximum frame rate is 11 frames per second with a deep buffer.  This suggests suitability for action.  I prefer the a7II's viewfinder over any DSLR viewfinder I've used - the accuracy and real-time exposure feedback are more than enough reason, and if I used AF the elimination of the AFMA bandaid-on-a-kludge would also be plenty of reason to avoid a DLSR.  The a7II viewfinder's first magnification step is too big.  I'd prefer the 3x/10x steps of the SL.

I thought the megapixel wars were over.  Or is the D4's 16 MP enough?

making assumptions?  You know what they say about that...

You can get the dual cards and less viewfinder lag along with 11 frames/sec on the SL.  AF performance remains to be seen (I'm not going to jump to any conclusions).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 21, 2015, 07:47:32 pm
(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/820823_10151297594443196_1940775022_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Clearly.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 21, 2015, 08:08:10 pm
I rest my case.

Me too... love the halo stripes in the sky, the colors (especially the ...yellow/greenish sunset) and the DR... fantastic!  ;D
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 21, 2015, 09:24:04 pm
Interesting though that I think as you move up to FF saving flange distance becomes less of an advantage than getting rid of the prism/mirror/AF sensor. Just look at these new Leica SL lenses and the idea that saving a couple of cms of flange distance as important becomes a bit of a joke. You can shave quite a lot of height off of a body by going mirrorless with an EVF and I would not be at all supprized to see Canon or especially Nikon take that route. Even if they don't attempting lenses is obviously a option.

Exactly. Besides, many people find the a7rII to be too small for proper operation (especially with gloves), especially when combined with larger/brighter lenses. Sony defined a strategy for their imaging division a few years back by looking at their core competences and strengths. They reached the conclusion that they were best at miniaturizing devices and applied this as is to cameras according to the "let's make the smallest possible camera with each sensor size" moto. This works wonders with the RX100 series, which delivers 5DMKIII level DR at base ISO in a pocketable camera.

But when you start to look at FF, one basically non compressible factor is lens size. We are given the impression of smaller size thanks to f4 zoom lenses, but lenses are in the end pretty much the same size at equal specs. The new Leica 24-90 is indeed a perfect example since it manages the feat to be heavier than the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR (described by many in these very parts as a "monster lens belonging to a long gone era" when announced a few months ago)... while being one stop less bright on the long end. And this part is obviously essential for many applications.

Another factor is battery capacity. When factoring in the need to take 1,500 images over a period of 2-3 days without being able to charge (a frequent landscape application for stitchers), the D810 and a7rii end up weighting the same because of the number of additional batteries you must carry along when using the a7rII. I hear that the Leica is superior, but it is also much heavier.

So all in all, the main value of mirrorless cameras are lower cost for camera manufacturers (meaning more margins, not lower prices - the a7rII is significantly more expensive than a D810, even if it much cheaper than the new Leica), the EVF if you like that (with some real advantages and some real downsides), more silent operation and a few more aspects, that are basically non essential to most photographic applications.

Make no mistake, I welcome these new mirrorless developments and think that Nikon/Canon should get on board soon, but I still fail to get the mirrorless over excitement.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 21, 2015, 11:17:22 pm

You guys do realize that Sony's chip making is primarily going into video, where they have always been, the primary cash making arena and it just trickled down into still photo because it was another use for it ?  Still cameras as such are quickly becoming a quaint relic of the late 20th century. The idea that Nikon is permanently attached to Sony is kind of silly. I expect to see Korean, Chinese and American chip making jump in very soon. Just because the Japanese invented reverse engineering doesn't mean it ends with them. Samsung as an example can do anything Sony can do now, if the market share is worth pursuing.

j


The idea that Sony will snub certain competitors over sensors is completely unfounded. That is not how business works. For example, Samsung and Apple are at each others throats in the courtroom, but Samsung sells memory to Apple cheaper than it does to its own mobile division because the order value is that much bigger. Same thing with Sony and Nikon . Besides, Nikon works with other fabricators such as Toshiba and Aptina.

The reason Sony spun off their sensor division has nothing to do with competitors. It is simply because of their corporate strategy, which is to make the divisions more accountable. The sensor division has been hitting it out of the park for a while now, but the overall numbers have been bogged down by underperforming divisions such as the mobile phone division. Conversely, the underperforming divisions were "rescued" each quarter by the jewels like the sensor division and the playstation division. Kaz finally had enough and ordered his minions to be accountable for themselves.

Nikon, Pentax, phase, Hasselblad etc. have nothing to worry about in terms of supply and never did.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 21, 2015, 11:23:05 pm
You fail to see the exitement for better IQ? The mirror only cause problems. It degrades performance in every category save one, faster focusing in dim light.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 21, 2015, 11:35:26 pm
You fail to see the exitement for better IQ? The mirror only cause problems. It degrades performance in every category save one, faster focusing in dim light.

That's a theoretical statement that I don't find is backed up by technological reality of today's DSLRs. I shoot my D810 handheld a lot these days and don't remember the last time I felt image sharpness was affected by mirror shake. And that is shooting with the best primes available and checking images at 100% on a 30 inch screen.

There is another category for which the mirror still has a huge advantage compared to the EVF IMHO, and that is pleasure of shooting. I spend enough time in front of screens that I don't enjoy looking at another - a low resolution one for that matter - when I photograph.

For me it is not a matter of theoretical principle. I have nothing against the principle of EVFs, but I don't find the EVF's I have tried (Sony and Olympus mainly) to be at the right level yet. The Leica one may change that, but then the SL has enough other issues that a perfect EVF won't be enough to convince me I fear.

Great if you find the current EVFs to meet your expectations, or if the other qualities of the current mirrorless cameras deliver enough value to compensate for the EVFs' remaining shortcomings. They don't cut it for me yet.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BrianVS on October 22, 2015, 07:52:52 am
Viewfinder lag, battery draw, sensor heating, shutter-release lag. DSLR's have a lot of advantages over EVF's. Higher resolution EVF's means a lot more data to push through the camera. Battery draw and electronic noise. Mirrors in cameras are essentially passive optical devices, no power-draw, no viewfinder lag, and less shutter-lag than mirrorless. I'd like to know the operating temperature of a sensor used for electronic mirrorless cameras, dark current doubles for every few degrees centigrade with most sensors.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 22, 2015, 09:13:59 am
While true, for any critical focus you will disable the optical path and enable liveview. So what is better. A camera designed to run in this mode or an afterthought. Dark current contribution is minimal in a normal exposure. I see it while doing astrophotography. But then critical focus is more important.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on October 22, 2015, 09:18:19 am
Viewfinder lag, battery draw, sensor heating, shutter-release lag. DSLR's have a lot of advantages over EVF's. Higher resolution EVF's means a lot more data to push through the camera. Battery draw and electronic noise. Mirrors in cameras are essentially passive optical devices, no power-draw, no viewfinder lag, and less shutter-lag than mirrorless. I'd like to know the operating temperature of a sensor used for electronic mirrorless cameras, dark current doubles for every few degrees centigrade with most sensors.

According to Sean Reid's latest article here in Lula, the SL is actually quite usable and responsive... as for EVF vs OVF, it boils down to personal taste and habit.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Bo Dez on October 22, 2015, 10:34:50 am
Looking at the specs, the 24-90 is almost f4 at 50mm! That is ridiculous for a $5000 lens! You may as well shoot medium format for that size, spec and price.

This is not a professional spec 35mm system lens, it's an oversized, over priced, slow as hell, amateur spec lens. Given the size of it, it means there will never be a constant 2.8 zoom lens for this system, ever.

Who in their right mind would buy this at over $5000? In professional situations it's only really usable at f4 because if you set up your lighting and exposure for 2.8 and then zoom, you have to change your lights or be a stop under exposed.

There are no other other lenses available at launch. Just this one, expensive, slow, enormous, limited zoom. This is going to flop hard.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BJL on October 22, 2015, 11:16:22 am
Exactly. Besides, many people find the a7rII to be too small for proper operation (especially with gloves), especially when combined with larger/brighter lenses. Sony defined a strategy for their imaging division a few years back by looking at their core competences and strengths. They reached the conclusion that they were best at miniaturizing devices and applied this as is to cameras according to the "let's make the smallest possible camera with each sensor size" moto. This works wonders with the RX100 series, which delivers 5DMKIII level DR at base ISO in a pocketable camera.

But when you start to look at FF, one basically non compressible factor is lens size. We are given the impression of smaller size thanks to f4 zoom lenses, but lenses are in the end pretty much the same size at equal specs. The new Leica 24-90 is indeed a perfect example since it manages the feat to be heavier than the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR (described by many in these very parts as a "monster lens belonging to a long gone era" when announced a few months ago)... while being one stop less bright on the long end. And this part is obviously essential for many applications.

Bernard,

    Though I agree that the advantages of "EVF cameras" over SLRs are less in larger formats (like 35mm) than in smaller ones (like 1" and 4/3", where your EVF camera and mine are) you are extrapolating too far from a couple of specific examples.  The surprising bulk of the Leica 24-90/2.8-4 is not a universal feature of lenses for EVF-cameras, and I suspect that its follows from a "no compromise on quality" approach, from a company that is traditionally skeptical of the optical quality of zoom lenses at all.  And the Sony combination of pointlessly small bodies with often chunky zoom lenses has always struck me as bizarre, because as you indicate, at focal lengths longer than about normal, it is lens size rather than body size that is the main constraint on compactness, and the body might as well be big enough to offer a solid hand-grip and easily operated controls.

For some examples of better design choices, note that MFT has both some lenses that are smaller than SLR counterparts, intended to be paired with bodies also smaller and lighter than SLR bodies, and then the EM1 (and Panasonic GH models) for use with the brighter, bulkier MFT lenses, external accessories and so on. The EM1 has been criticized for its bulk, but for its intended use with the bulkier high-end MFT lenses, that deep hand-grip and abundant external controls look useful.

Your words quoted below give a fascinating example of how people can project their own priorities and tastes onto others, as if believing that "all right-thinking people agree": complaining about modest differences in how often one needs to swap batteries (coming down at worst to owning and carrying one or two more spare batteries), and then deprecating the widely-discussed advantages of EVFs (for manual focusing and accurate previews, far larger and more detailed previews when zoomed, etc.), cost (look at the cheapest models in each format size), quieter operation (and its un-mentioned partner, reduced vibration) with put-down wording like "non essential" and "if you like that" might reflect your priorities and tastes, but I suspect a great many other competent camera users differ.

Another factor is battery capacity. When factoring in the need to take 1,500 images over a period of 2-3 days without being able to charge . . .

So all in all, the main value of mirrorless cameras are lower cost for camera manufacturers . . . the EVF if you like that . . . more silent operation and a few more aspects, that are basically non essential to most photographic applications.

Make no mistake, I welcome these new mirrorless developments and think that Nikon/Canon should get on board soon, but I still fail to get the mirrorless over excitement.
Title: high quality lenses do not all need to be super-fast these days
Post by: BJL on October 22, 2015, 11:32:08 am
Looking at the specs, the 24-90 is almost f4 at 50mm! That is ridiculous for a $5000 lens! You may as well shoot medium format for that size, spec and price.
Yes – despite some wishful thinking from a certain passionate Leica enthusiast around here, that is usually the way it goes with variable minimum f-stop lenses: an f/2.8-4 typically offers some brightness advantage over a constant f/4, with little increase in bulk or cost, but the gain is mostly near the short end.

This is not a professional spec 35mm system lens, it's an oversized, over priced, slow as hell, amateur spec lens.
Are you sating that f/2.8 or close is an essential requirement for professional quality lens?  (So Canon's f/4 L zooms are frauds?)  Frankly, that sounds like an anachronistic attitude, a left-over from the era of film that limited us to far lower ISO speeds before quality fell off badly, and so often forcing photographers to accept painfully shallow DOF to get decent image quality.  Sure, _some_ professional photography benefits from big apertures and the associated very low DOF, but I would guess that a large majority of high quality professional and amateur photography in 35mm format is done with lenses stopped down beyond f/4.

I agree that the surprising bulk of this zoom lens is a legitimate topic for concern: it is due to a very strict priority for IQ over size, or Leica not yet having much expertise in zoom lens design, or something else?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Rob C on October 22, 2015, 11:57:00 am
While true, for any critical focus you will disable the optical path and enable liveview. So what is better. A camera designed to run in this mode or an afterthought. Dark current contribution is minimal in a normal exposure. I see it while doing astrophotography. But then critical focus is more important.


Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C
Title: Re: high quality lenses do not all need to be super-fast these days
Post by: Bo Dez on October 22, 2015, 12:03:52 pm
Yes – despite some wishful thinking from a certain passionate Leica enthusiast around here, that is usually the way it goes with variable minimum f-stop lenses: an f/2.8-4 typically offers some brightness advantage over a constant f/4, with little increase in bulk or cost, but the gain is mostly near the short end.
Are you sating that f/2.8 or close is an essential requirement for professional quality lens?  (So Canon's f/4 L zooms are frauds?)  Frankly, that sounds like an anachronistic attitude, a left-over from the era of film that limited us to far lower ISO speeds before quality fell off badly, and so often forcing photographers to accept painfully shallow DOF to get decent image quality.  Sure, _some_ professional photography benefits from big apertures and the associated very low DOF, but I would guess that a large majority of high quality professional and amateur photography in 35mm format is done with lenses stopped down beyond f/4.

I agree that the surprising bulk of this zoom lens is a legitimate topic for concern: it is due to a very strict priority for IQ over size, or Leica not yet having much expertise in zoom lens design, or something else?

I don't think it's an anachronism at all. I would say the opposite is to suggest that a 2.8-4 lens is relevant in this day and age, in a professional build. It's about maximising potential, doing more with less, making it easier to shoot and get the pictures you need in less time, without having to be concerned about changing lighting and exposures if you simply change your lens zoom. if I want a lens like that I will just shoot medium format where the extra bulk and effort pays off with image quality. Canon's f4 zooms have their place, particularly the wider ones, but the difference is you have a choice with Canon and their 2.8 Lenses are very, very good, small and relatively cheap. A 24-70 , lets say standard zoom type of thing, needs to be 2.8, IMO, as does 70-200 ish. Or at very least, the option to have it as well (like Canon), and with this system it doesn't look like it will ever be the case. There are no fast lenses for this thing until end of next year when there may be one 50mm 1.4.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Bo Dez on October 22, 2015, 12:13:01 pm

Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C

Exactly! I have used a tripod once in 15 years. Only because it was a shoot that needed locked off shots for a very complex composite.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 22, 2015, 12:56:08 pm

Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C
Well we were talking about maximum IQ. Mirror doesn't help. For handheld, there really is no contest in my mind. It is nigh on impossible to get accurate focus with a mirror. But worse you absolutely cannot see it in a modern DSLR even if you shim it just so. Electronic aid and on sensor af really is the way to go. But some prefer ovf and thats fine, we don't have to debate that.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: JeanMichel on October 22, 2015, 01:05:31 pm
A Leica SL is not likely to be in my future – I am happy enough my my M9, which is getting a free replacement sensor, and my Canon 5D2. Still, I am interested in what that camera may be and, who knows,  be in my future after all. I am looking forward to Michael's review of the camera when he gets hold of one. In the meantime, a review by Jono Slack, who has used a pre-production camera, can be found at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-test-jono/  No speculations, only a report on real use photography.
Jean-Michel
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rainer_v on October 22, 2015, 01:32:08 pm
I never understood the appeal of the digital M cameras, not of the S line and not of the SL. If i would have them in my bags, one more system which i wouldnt use. Although in film days i was in love with the M and the R, so its nothing against Leica in general, but their digitals just dont attract me , independent of their price tags.
Why to buy into the new leica line, i cant see it and even if 24mp might be nice for many things, i prefer higher pixel counts ... at least if the quality is so high than the sony/nikons are offering

The weight value of a small cam as the a7r is not to find together with clumpsy zooms, but with lenses as the voigtländers, leica m, or the small E lenses. Also together with the very nice canon 24-70/4 its still a package which is  much lighter than a d800 or similars.
.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 22, 2015, 01:56:45 pm
Hi,

So you find the Canon 24-70/4 a good option on that A7rII? I am a bit interested in that lens!

Best regards
Erik

I never understood the appeal of the digital M cameras, not of the S line and not of the SL. If i would have them in my bags, one more system which i wouldnt use. Although in film days i was in love with the M and the R, so its nothing against Leica in general, but their digitals just dont attract me , independent of their price tags.
Why to buy into the new leica line, i cant see it and even if 24mp might be nice for many things, i prefer higher pixel counts ... at least if the quality is so high than the sony/nikons are offering

The weight value of a small cam as the a7r is not to find together with clumpsy zooms, but with lenses as the voigtländers, leica m, or the small E lenses. Also together with the very nice canon 24-70/4 its still a package which is  much lighter than a d800 or similars.
.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rainer_v on October 22, 2015, 02:35:49 pm
i compared carefull the sigma art 24-105 , the canon 24-105 is and two of the 24-70/4 for aerial shootings. Otherwise i use very rarely zooms. The canon 24-70 was by far the best of these lenses.
At f8 the 24-70/4 is very good and esp. very sharp till the edges over the whole range.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 22, 2015, 03:09:19 pm
Clearly the approach that most have with this camera is totally different than Leica's aim... Leica never addressed this product at the mass market that would go out to select a system to use and sell 50000 cameras per month... Surely there will be some people that can afford it and use it in that manner, but only a few out of its customers... And maybe later on, Leica will use this same platform to address it to the consumer market... but this is clearly a PRO product that has been designed as to provide a cross-talk among the rest of Leica and Sinar products.

Clearly Leica has aimed for a platform that allows R users to use their lenses, M users to do the same, S users to have a back up camera and Sinar users to obtain a cheap MFDB with S lenses on their front standard and full interface comunication between front and rear standard and even integrate pro video in their work as well as turning Sinar view cameras into great proffessional videocameras.

It is a product that unites and enhances the abilities of already existing Leica users and especially the pro ones... Nothing more, nothing less. A proof of the above is that Leica is into no rush as to provide lenses for the consumer market as they know it would only be a small fraction of the possible sales. To the contradict, I believe that this camera will enhance sales of the Leica S and of Sinar products.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: pegelli on October 22, 2015, 03:39:57 pm
Clearly the approach that most have with this camera is totally different than Leica's aim... Leica never addressed this product at the mass market that would go out to select a system to use and sell 50000 cameras per month... Surely there will be some people that can afford it and use it in that manner, but only a few out of its customers... And maybe later on, Leica will use this same platform to address it to the consumer market... but this is clearly a PRO product that has been designed as to provide a cross-talk among the rest of Leica and Sinar products.

Clearly Leica has aimed for a platform that allows R users to use their lenses, M users to do the same, S users to have a back up camera and Sinar users to obtain a cheap MFDB with S lenses on their front standard and full interface comunication between front and rear standard and even integrate pro video in their work as well as turning Sinar view cameras into great proffessional videocameras.

It is a product that unites and enhances the abilities of already existing Leica users and especially the pro ones... Nothing more, nothing less. A proof of the above is that Leica is into no rush as to provide lenses for the consumer market as they know it would only be a small fraction of the possible sales. To the contradict, I believe that this camera will enhance sales of the Leica S and of Sinar products.
Theo, I don't know if this description of Leica's intentions you paint is true or not (only time will tell) but if we assume it is how would you then answer the question you put in the title of the thread?
My assessment would be no, in your scenario it's not a direct competitor but a similar product that is aimed at a different market (or different type of use).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 22, 2015, 03:53:31 pm
Theo, I don't know if this description of Leica's intentions you paint is true or not (only time will tell) but if we assume it is how would you then answer the question you put in the title of the thread? My assessment would be no, it's not a direct competitor but a similar product that is aimed at a different market.
The O/P title was before the camera was announced... I was expecting a FF mirrorless with T mount ( that it is) and that it would be something like the a Q with interchangeable lens and thus a Sony alternative (that would surely be cheaper than the Q since there would be no lens)... But... look at that!

 I also believe that the camera will be a major success among Hollywood professionals and the rest of major cinema studios around the world... People keep forgetting that Leica promotes this as a PRO platform (they have it in their major promotion logo in capitals)... not a Sony or Nikon or Canon alternative... and even if all the makers have cameras addressed to a pro task... Leica's idea of a pro is all kinds of tasks, whether if its Magnum, or Studio, or fashion, or product, or architecture, or cinema, or art...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rainer_v on October 22, 2015, 04:53:06 pm
i'd say i need my cams for "pro uses" as you say... and exactly therefor i cant see what the hell i would do with this leica.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 22, 2015, 05:12:00 pm
i'd say i need my cams for "pro uses" as you say... and exactly therefor i cant see what the hell i would do with this leica.

Simple... you won't buy it! ...there others that will!  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: deanwork on October 22, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
At 16 grand for the body with a chip that will be obsolete in a couple of years, if not now, the only thing that is PRO is the marketing people trying to keep Leica alive.





Simple... you won't buy it! ...there others that will!  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: pegelli on October 22, 2015, 06:13:26 pm
The O/P title was before the camera was announced... I was expecting a FF mirrorless with T mount ( that it is) and that it would be something like the a Q with interchangeable lens and thus a Sony alternative (that would surely be cheaper than the Q since there would be no lens)... But... look at that!
A simple yes or no would suffice to answer my question, but reading between the lines I read a no.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 22, 2015, 06:19:26 pm
At 16 grand for the body with a chip that will be obsolete in a couple of years, if not now, the only thing that is PRO is the marketing people trying to keep Leica alive.

One may say that for everything... P1 backs, Credo backs, Hassy cameras... whatever... I still see pros using their S & S2 though with amazing results and I do find my Sinarback 54H & my Hasselblad CF-39MS multishot backs anything but obsolete (unless if you can beat them in their quality or know equipment that does...  :o )... Neither I find my Contax 645 system obsolete (in fact the prices are off the roof with it) or my Fuji GX680 system... Obsolete is as obsolete does... see?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 22, 2015, 06:23:23 pm
A simple yes or no would suffice to answer my question, but reading between the lines I read a no.

You read correct... I started the thread expecting a "yes" and it turned out to be a "no"...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2015, 08:08:32 pm
For some examples of better design choices, note that MFT has both some lenses that are smaller than SLR counterparts, intended to be paired with bodies also smaller and lighter than SLR bodies, and then the EM1 (and Panasonic GH models) for use with the brighter, bulkier MFT lenses, external accessories and so on. The EM1 has been criticized for its bulk, but for its intended use with the bulkier high-end MFT lenses, that deep hand-grip and abundant external controls look useful.

Agreed, but the sensors are twice smaller and the mount too.

Your words quoted below give a fascinating example of how people can project their own priorities and tastes onto others, as if believing that "all right-thinking people agree": complaining about modest differences in how often one needs to swap batteries (coming down at worst to owning and carrying one or two more spare batteries), and then deprecating the widely-discussed advantages of EVFs (for manual focusing and accurate previews, far larger and more detailed previews when zoomed, etc.), cost (look at the cheapest models in each format size), quieter operation (and its un-mentioned partner, reduced vibration) with put-down wording like "non essential" and "if you like that" might reflect your priorities and tastes, but I suspect a great many other competent camera users differ.

You may have read a bit too much in what I wrote. ;) My comments are of course derived from my needs, but I believe that they are a bit more generic than what you seem to think. I have of course never said or thought for a second that they apply to all, why would I want to discourage EVF usera happy about the tool their use? I am fully aware that compactness is key for some operations and that an EVF is by far the best solution in some shooting situations (low light,...).

On your comments:
- Although I didn't go through the list in details again, I clearly acknowledged that there were some advantages to EVFs (accurate manual focus is one of them, although I am not sold yet on the Sony implementation that seems to force you to lose track of the whole composition when you zoom to 100%, low light,...), and some, IMHO still important, downsides (contrast, battery drain, lack of resolution, "disconnection" from the reality of the scene, loss of shooting pleasure,...),
- My comment about batteries was not at all about the time it takes to change batteries, it was about the total weight of the system for those who need to take more than 1,000 (I wrote 1,500 above, still true at 1,000) images in a given session without having the opportunity to recharge. I mentioned my applications, but there are many others (sports, weddings,...) for which taking 1,000 images in a session without being able to charge is common. 1,000 images at 5 images per second represents... less than 4 minutes of continuous shooting. This was meant as another example of the main point, being that there are downsides to small size/low weight other than ergonomics, it isn't the magic bullet some claim it is,
- There are cheaper mirrorless cameras, but there are even cheaper DSLRs. Overall would you not agree that mirrorless are currently more expensive than their closest DSLR equivalent? The cost to produce them is clearly cheaper (less mechanical parts, faster assembly, less calibration, less recalls,...), yet they sell at at a higher price. Just facts. What it means is more margin for camera manufacturers, which is probably the main reason why Olympus is still in the camera business btw. I am not complaining at all, I find it good for them that they are able to sell on perceived value and not on cost. But it means that I won't spend that amount of cash for a a7rII although I think it would be nice to own one for some shooting situations. It is too expensive for the marginal value I would gain,
- The non essential comment was about other minor items that had not been listed (I realize that the way I built my sentence was confusing), it was not meant against EVFs.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 22, 2015, 08:34:55 pm
- There are cheaper mirrorless cameras, but there are even cheaper DSLRs. Overall would you not agree that mirrorless are currently more expensive than their closest DSLR equivalent?

I would argue that equivalence is elusive at best.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2015, 08:46:14 pm
I would argue that equivalence is elusive at best.

Fair enough. What are the mirrorless cameras equivalent to a Nikon D5500 (best in class 24mp DX sensor) in image quality/AF capabilities (the 2 components most important I would say) and what is their street price int the US?

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D5500-DX-format-Digital-Black/dp/B00RUBJ7EW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445561062&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+5500

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 22, 2015, 08:50:33 pm
Fair enough. What are the mirrorless cameras equivalent to a Nikon D5500 (best in class 24mp DX sensor) in image quality/AF capabilities (the 2 components most important I would say) and what is their street price int the US?

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D5500-DX-format-Digital-Black/dp/B00RUBJ7EW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445561062&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+5500

Cheers,
Bernard

What DSLR cameras have equivalent manual focus capabilities?  That's most important to me.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2015, 08:55:19 pm
What DSLR cameras have equivalent manual focus capabilities?  That's most important to me.

OK, I understand your point now. What mirrorless camera are you currently using?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MoreOrLess on October 22, 2015, 09:15:37 pm
Looking at the specs, the 24-90 is almost f4 at 50mm! That is ridiculous for a $5000 lens! You may as well shoot medium format for that size, spec and price.

This is not a professional spec 35mm system lens, it's an oversized, over priced, slow as hell, amateur spec lens. Given the size of it, it means there will never be a constant 2.8 zoom lens for this system, ever.

Who in their right mind would buy this at over $5000? In professional situations it's only really usable at f4 because if you set up your lighting and exposure for 2.8 and then zoom, you have to change your lights or be a stop under exposed.

There are no other other lenses available at launch. Just this one, expensive, slow, enormous, limited zoom. This is going to flop hard.

To be fair if you look to medium format you'll see variable aperture zooms as well and perhaps that provides a good hint (if anymore were needed after the price) that if the SL is going to be bought by pro's its not likely to be your standard event/portrait shooter, more likely for example someone shooting something like travel photography.

Really though lets be honest the key market for this camera as with everything Leica have released in recent years bar maybe the S system is going to be rich amateurs. In that respect "professional" has really just come to mean certain rather ill defined standard of performance and build/handling.

In that respect I think this  24-90mm lens makes a lot of sense provided it offers extreme IQ you'd expect. It is a good range as a holiday/travel camera and you could argue is also plugging a bit of a gap since nobody else is really offering a high quality zoom in that range.

Size wise I do tend to agree with Bernard that Sony(and indeed all mirrorless) are deliberately aiming at a niche and this creates a potential logical facility. That is claiming mirrorless is the future from a technical stand point and then from that argument alone also bringing the assumption that very small cameras are also the future when really the latter is at present more a result of mirrorless looking to avoid direct competition with DSLRs. This Leica is arguably the first mirrorless camera to not be sold mainly on size but purely on its own merits.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: tnargs on October 22, 2015, 09:21:44 pm
Fair enough. What are the mirrorless cameras equivalent to a Nikon D5500 (best in class 24mp DX sensor) in image quality/AF capabilities (the 2 components most important I would say) and what is their street price int the US?

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D5500-DX-format-Digital-Black/dp/B00RUBJ7EW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445561062&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+5500

Cheers,
Bernard
Sony A6000 $500, D5500 $750
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 22, 2015, 09:36:09 pm
OK, I understand your point now. What mirrorless camera are you currently using?

Cheers,
Bernard

a7II
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2015, 09:37:24 pm
Sony A6000 $500, D5500 $750

Indeed. Now the a6000 is very close to retirement and Sony is trying to clean up the shelves. But there are indeed some exceptions. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: tnargs on October 22, 2015, 09:51:53 pm
A6000 was always well priced. And mention of retirement suggests age, wrongly. That's just Sony. It's a 2014 model, there are plenty of older models in the Canikon fleets. Your point in raising it escapes me.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2015, 10:01:50 pm
A6000 was always well priced. And mention of retirement suggests age, wrongly. That's just Sony. It's a 2014 model, there are plenty of older models in the Canikon fleets. Your point in raising it escapes me.

I stand corrected, some mirrorless are cheaper than some DSLRs of equivalent specs.

Btw, I have owned an a5100 since it was released and love the camera, just in case you got the wrong impression that I dislike Sony or mirrorless interchangeable lenses cameras.

Now, the mirrorless I find most appealing (the a6000 isn't not part of them after I shot with one - the a5100 works better for my needs), including the Olympus, the Sony a7r, are priced above their DSLR equivalents.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: tnargs on October 22, 2015, 10:37:10 pm
I agree. For tight budget, new camera, best image quality per dollar, maximum flexibility, easy access to stores and support, best discount offers, and easy resale, whenever someone asks me for advice on "getting my first real camera", I still point them to the Canikon twin zoom kits, entry-level or next model up.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2015, 12:39:50 am
Well said!

Best regards
Erik

The idea that Sony will snub certain competitors over sensors is completely unfounded. That is not how business works. For example, Samsung and Apple are at each others throats in the courtroom, but Samsung sells memory to Apple cheaper than it does to its own mobile division because the order value is that much bigger. Same thing with Sony and Nikon . Besides, Nikon works with other fabricators such as Toshiba and Aptina.

The reason Sony spun off their sensor division has nothing to do with competitors. It is simply because of their corporate strategy, which is to make the divisions more accountable. The sensor division has been hitting it out of the park for a while now, but the overall numbers have been bogged down by underperforming divisions such as the mobile phone division. Conversely, the underperforming divisions were "rescued" each quarter by the jewels like the sensor division and the playstation division. Kaz finally had enough and ordered his minions to be accountable for themselves.

Nikon, Pentax, phase, Hasselblad etc. have nothing to worry about in terms of supply and never did.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MoreOrLess on October 23, 2015, 01:35:55 am
Sony A6000 $500, D5500 $750

Is that a sign of cheaper production though or just a body being sold cheaper in the hope of selling more expensive lenses?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: pegelli on October 23, 2015, 02:30:49 am
Is that a sign of cheaper production though or just a body being sold cheaper in the hope of selling more expensive lenses?
I don't buy the logic that such big price differences are just there to "hope" they can sell more expensive lenses.
And even it were true I would think the Nikon should then be cheaper then the Sony. Nikon needs to keep people in their ecosystem, Sony knows E-mount is much more adaptable to non Sony lenses, which is I think a contributing factor to why they made the E-mount specs available for free to other manufacturers who are willing to accept their non-financial terms for that (mainly ownership of IP and secrecy).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 23, 2015, 01:48:00 pm
You can get a Nikon D750 plus two Otus lenses cheaper than the SL + leica zoom. And you can get a 24-120/4 bundled with that. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 23, 2015, 08:57:04 pm
You can get a Nikon D750 plus two Otus lenses cheaper than the SL + leica zoom. And you can get a 24-120/4 bundled with that. Hilarious.
You should rather replace "you" with "I"... that would mean an opinion... not trying to "advise" others on what to do... i.e. "I can get a Nikon D750 plus two Otus lenses cheaper than the SL + leica zoom." ...one should then reply, ..."Go ahead, I have my own plans for my type of work..."!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: eronald on October 24, 2015, 12:16:39 am
You should rather replace "you" with "I"... that would mean an opinion... not trying to "advise" others on what to do... i.e. "I can get a Nikon D750 plus two Otus lenses cheaper than the SL + leica zoom." ...one should then reply, ..."Go ahead, I have my own plans for my type of work..."!

I think this *Leica* is not much use to me, and not much of a step forward for the rest of photographing humanity, either. Now that's my opinion, *you* may or may not want to agree.

*You* can get this Leica for the price of ... ,  (but I can't coz I'm too poor).  Now that's either a statement of fact or a misstatement, but not an opinion :)

Leica will market an interchangeable lens medium format camera for less than $12K next year. Now that's a falsifiable prediction, not an opinion :)

I think it's late and I am polluting this forum with a bargain-basement course on rhetoric. Now that's a tautology. :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Rob C on October 24, 2015, 04:18:21 am
I think this *Leica* is not much use to me, and not much of a step forward for the rest of photographing humanity, either. Now that's my opinion, *you* may or may not want to agree.

*You* can get this Leica for the price of ... ,  (but I can't coz I'm too poor).  Now that's either a statement of fact or a misstatement, but not an opinion :)

Leica will market an interchangeable lens medium format camera for less than $12K next year. Now that's a falsifiable prediction, not an opinion :)

I think it's late and I am polluting this forum with a bargain-basement course on rhetoric. Now that's a tautology. :)

Edmund


Edmund, I know it's Paris and all that, but easy on the absinthe! Shhhrelanté! Now that's a neologism.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 24, 2015, 07:04:42 am
Neology, tautology... It's all Greek to me!  :o  ;D
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 25, 2015, 04:29:32 am
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/56286-leica-sl-601-oct-20th-post665703.html#post665703

In case any one were wondering. No CS shutter support with S lenses and none planned, which means none with H lenses as well. Leaf shutters in 35mm format remains a pipe dream.

No EFCS either, something the A7R was crucified for.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 25, 2015, 09:01:15 am
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/56286-leica-sl-601-oct-20th-post665703.html#post665703

In case any one were wondering. No CS shutter support with S lenses and none planned, which means none with H lenses as well. Leaf shutters in 35mm format remains a pipe dream.

No EFCS either, something the A7R was crucified for.

Given that the poster provides inadequate evidence about his findings on the SL and the fact that he keeps posting negatively on it and even claimed in his first message that he wouldn't be interested on the camera, I would take his "findings" with a lot of salt... Particularly if this (exclusive to him) "info" is spread by others that have also a negative attitude on some makers products and additionally have "exclusive" information on an adapter that will be released (by Leica) 6 months later and the official position of Leica is "full compatibility with the S-lenses)...

Technically, there is no reason why leaf shutter wouldn't be operational unless if Leica will exclude the ability in purpose... Which (given their tradition) I'm sure they would never do given that it can only damage SL sales but S sales of cameras and lenses too.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 25, 2015, 09:22:52 am
No EFCS either, something the A7R was crucified for.

I'd be OK with a lack of E1C shutter if the camera is quiet and responsive without it.  I like the feature on the a7II but it's not nearly as useful as I'd hoped because it results in uneven exposures at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec when using adapted lenses.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 25, 2015, 10:02:12 am
Do you need to control shake at shutterspeeds of 1/1000 or less? I fail to see the reason that would be necessary.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 25, 2015, 10:56:10 am
Given that the poster provides inadequate evidence about his findings on the SL and the fact that he keeps posting negatively on it and even claimed in his first message that he wouldn't be interested on the camera, I would take his "findings" with a lot of salt... Particularly if this (exclusive to him) "info" is spread by others that have also a negative attitude on some makers products and additionally have "exclusive" information on an adapter that will be released (by Leica) 6 months later and the official position of Leica is "full compatibility with the S-lenses)...

Technically, there is no reason why leaf shutter wouldn't be operational unless if Leica will exclude the ability in purpose... Which (given their tradition) I'm sure they would never do given that it can only damage SL sales but S sales of cameras and lenses too.

Dude, read the post. He is reporting what a Leica rep said at photo plus.
Did a Leica rep personally tell you otherwise? Did they personally promise you the sinar mini view cam with full electronic support that you keep talking about?

Please understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 25, 2015, 11:33:27 am
Dude, read the post. He is reporting what a Leica rep said at photo plus.
Did a Leica rep personally tell you otherwise? Did they personally promise you the Sinar mini view cam with full electronic support that you keep talking about?

Please understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Oh, I do realize the difference between fantasy & reality...  the question here is rather if he does, or even if you do... Dude!
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 25, 2015, 12:13:54 pm
Hi,

A good reason to use EFSC is that it reduces response time in addition to reducing camera shake. On a EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) camera the shutter needs to be closed before exposure, adding response time.

With EFCS the camera can respond very fast, but aperture may not be able to close before exposure. So shooting stopped down or at full aperture there should not be any problem.

I am in favour of keeping things simple, so I wouldn't like to disable EFCS if shooting at 1/1000 or faster. Right now I always use EFSC, but I seldom shoot fast shutter times.

Best regards
Erik

Do you need to control shake at shutterspeeds of 1/1000 or less? I fail to see the reason that would be necessary.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on October 25, 2015, 12:34:45 pm
I get your point. Having to disable it in a changing light or bracket might be cumbersome.

I thought of another. Short exposure time induced diffraction due to thin slit would be a reason to want unlimited shutterspeeds with EFCS.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: telyt on October 25, 2015, 02:20:21 pm
I get your point. Having to disable it in a changing light or bracket might be cumbersome.

Make that is cumbersome.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Brent Daniels on October 25, 2015, 06:31:08 pm

I also believe that the camera will be a major success among Hollywood professionals and the rest of major cinema studios around the world... People keep forgetting that Leica promotes this as a PRO platform (they have it in their major promotion logo in capitals)... not a Sony or Nikon or Canon alternative... and even if all the makers have cameras addressed to a pro task... Leica's idea of a pro is all kinds of tasks, whether if its Magnum, or Studio, or fashion, or product, or architecture, or cinema, or art...
[/quote]

For once I have to agree with Theodoros. Leica must have some serious film ambitions for this camera if they are displaying it at PhotoPlus in NYC with a PL mount and Leica cini lens on it. The cost of this new body is a drop compared to the cost of an amazing set of matching f2 Leica Cini primes. A very interesting new camera especially with that amazing glass.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 27, 2015, 12:25:11 am
I also believe that the camera will be a major success among Hollywood professionals and the rest of major cinema studios around the world... People keep forgetting that Leica promotes this as a PRO platform (they have it in their major promotion logo in capitals)... not a Sony or Nikon or Canon alternative... and even if all the makers have cameras addressed to a pro task... Leica's idea of a pro is all kinds of tasks, whether if its Magnum, or Studio, or fashion, or product, or architecture, or cinema, or art...


For once I have to agree with Theodoros. Leica must have some serious film ambitions for this camera if they are displaying it at PhotoPlus in NYC with a PL mount and Leica cini lens on it. The cost of this new body is a drop compared to the cost of an amazing set of matching f2 Leica Cini primes. A very interesting new camera especially with that amazing glass.

I don't know what sort of 'pros' they're aiming the camera at, but it's certainly not pro still photographers.

Spending that much on a rapidly-depreciating asset that doesn't do the job any better than another camera a third the price (as far as still photos goes) sounds like a pretty bad business investment. It would only make sense if the camera had a certain capability you needed that wasn't available in a cheaper body.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on October 27, 2015, 05:09:15 am
I don't know what sort of 'pros' they're aiming the camera at, but it's certainly not pro still photographers.

Spending that much on a rapidly-depreciating asset that doesn't do the job any better than another camera a third the price (as far as still photos goes) sounds like a pretty bad business investment. It would only make sense if the camera had a certain capability you needed that wasn't available in a cheaper body.

What you wrote above describes many costly electronic gadgets that are being sold today. For example, the latest and greatest smartphone from a well known brand does the same thing as many other smartphones, and costs a lot more...

Apparently Leica have their economic model sort of right, because they have been making and selling cameras and lenses for decades, and said products are always a lot more expensive than existing options. And they are still profitable... go figure.

Nobody should buy a camera, or an electronic gadget, from a "business investment" perspective. Unless you can pay said camera after doing a couple of assignments.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rainer_v on October 27, 2015, 06:13:36 am
Does anybody care, that the camera has 24Mp? Thats not a small detail and if the SL would have 36 , 42 or 50 Mp everything else could be discussed. At least if the Dr will be somehow in  a similar league than sony and nikon are. We will see.
And if the zoom would have a fixed 2,8 aperture too. Would be still a heavy weight but not so out of range as it is with 2,8-4. 
All specs sounds so mediocre and outdated AND overpriced ( maybe except the viewfinder ), that i cant see where this cam can land. I dont know about Hollywood and filming, but for the kind of photography i am doing, it looks absolutely unintersting to me.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 27, 2015, 07:12:07 am
What you wrote above describes many costly electronic gadgets that are being sold today. For example, the latest and greatest smartphone from a well known brand does the same thing as many other smartphones, and costs a lot more...

Apparently Leica have their economic model sort of right, because they have been making and selling cameras and lenses for decades, and said products are always a lot more expensive than existing options. And they are still profitable... go figure.

Nobody should buy a camera, or an electronic gadget, from a "business investment" perspective. Unless you can pay said camera after doing a couple of assignments.

Their camera division is a shadow of what it once was - profitable, but hardly booming. They make a lot of scientific and medical equipment, though.

And, if it's aimed at pros, it's all about cost vs benefit - if you can do the same thing at a third of the cost, you'd be dumb to go for the more-expensive option.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 27, 2015, 07:13:02 am
A camera with flange distance of only 19mm, no mirror box and wide mount that permits light to hit the sensor totally unobstructed even at the furthest corners, is the ideal alternative of using it instead of an MFDB on a view camera... If the camera also has wider pixels, it's only a bonus for light perception and if it has great live view, it makes it ideal for the job... How can one call a camera with the above properties as inappropriate for still life photography (without providing any reasons), ...that, I fail to see!

Furthermore, if one uses the Leica S lenses on the front standard of a view camera and the SL on the rear, it will allow the SL to communicate with the SL lenses with full communication interface (it's only a cable needed since the interface is the same as the S lenses adapter)... I guess that a pro that uses Leica S and wants to add a view camera on his system for still life (with the lenses he already uses) and also needs a back up camera with additional LL capabilities and great video performance (with or without the view camera used as a video camera)... He can't find a better alternative than the SL (at least for now...).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 27, 2015, 07:17:56 am
Does anybody care, that the camera has 24Mp? Thats not a small detail and if the SL would have 36 , 42 or 50 Mp everything else could be discussed. At least if the Dr will be somehow in  a similar league than sony and nikon are. We will see.
And if the zoom would have a fixed 2,8 aperture too. Would be still a heavy weight but not so out of range as it is with 2,8-4. 
All specs sounds so mediocre and outdated AND overpriced ( maybe except the viewfinder ), that i cant see where this cam can land. I dont know about Hollywood and filming, but for the kind of photography i am doing, it looks absolutely unintersting to me.

Very much so. For that reason alone, I wouldn't consider it a 'do-everything' camera suitable for all professional uses (not ideal for landscapes, architecture, studio, shooting hi-res backgrounds for cinema/3dFX). Although, if it's aimed at action and video, it's probably fine. 32MP or higher would make it more appealing, though, for 8k use.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 27, 2015, 07:24:07 am
A camera with flange distance of only 19mm, no mirror box and wide mount that permits light to hit the sensor totally unobstructed even at the furthest corners, is the ideal alternative of using it instead of an MFDB on a view camera... If the camera also has wider pixels, it's only a bonus for light perception and if it has great live view, it makes it ideal for the job... How can one call a camera with the above properties as inappropriate for still life photography (without providing any reasons), ...that, I fail to see!

Describes the A7rII/A7sII perfectly. Choose between higher resolution or better low-light sensitivity. Or get both and still spend less than a single Leica body.

Quote
Furthermore, if one uses the Leica S lenses on the front standard of a view camera and the SL on the rear, it will allow the SL to communicate with the SL lenses with full communication interface (it's only a cable needed since the interface is the same as the S lenses adapter)... I guess that a pro that uses Leica S and wants to add a view camera on his system for still life (with the lenses he already uses) and also needs a back up camera with additional LL capabilities and great video performance (with or without the view camera used as a video camera)... He can't find a better alternative than the SL (at least for now...).

Any body whose main benefit over cheaper bodies only concerns Leica S shooters has a small market indeed.

I don't know anyone using the Leica S body together with a view camera - it kind of defeats the purpose of an integrated system. Most of the view camera users I've come across use Phase One or Mamiya backs.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 27, 2015, 07:43:43 am
Describes the A7rII/A7sII perfectly. Choose between higher resolution or better low-light sensitivity. Or get both and still spend less than a single Leica body.

Any body whose main benefit over cheaper bodies only concerns Leica S shooters has a small market indeed.

I don't know anyone using the Leica S body together with a view camera - it kind of defeats the purpose of an integrated system. Most of the view camera users I've come across use Phase One or Mamiya backs.

Does Sony offers interface compatibility with Leica S lenses? If a Leica user would choose a (say) Cambo Actus to use with Sony A instead of an MFDB, he will have to use a new series of lenses with it... I was hopping that one can understand what he replies on and reply on the subject... otherwise it turns to "Babel"... In addition nobody ever mentioned the S camera as to be used with a view camera (where this came from?).

As I said before, the SL provides a cross-platform for pros that already use (or plan to use) Leica family (inc Sinar) equipment... If one doesn't fit to the equation, it natural to have a different approach to the product... Nobody blames him for that... I still don't see why he insists for his perspective to be implemented by others that have different view... None is (or can be) the "center of the world"... isn't it?

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: pegelli on October 27, 2015, 07:55:04 am
I still don't see why he insists for his perspective to be implemented by others that have different view... None is (or can be) the "center of the world"... isn't it?
In my mind and reading his posts he doesn't insist it won't happen, at least no more or less that you insist it will happen. The only thing I read is that some people find it less likely while others (incl. you) find it more likely. My opinion is "time will tell"  :)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 27, 2015, 08:49:00 am
The only person INSISTING anything here is the one who claims there WILL be a Sinar view camera with full electronic support for Leica S lenses (Not announced, not even rumored) and that the SL will support S lenses with leaf shutter functionality (Leica rep at Photoplus has confirmed this will not happen, no or ever).

We all know who that person is.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 27, 2015, 09:11:56 am
The only person INSISTING anything here is the one who claims there WILL be a Sinar view camera with full electronic support for Leica S lenses (Not announced, not even rumored) and that the SL will support S lenses with leaf shutter functionality (Leica rep at Photoplus has confirmed this will not happen, no or ever).

We all know who that person is.

I called Leica on the LS lenses support matter that is claimed by a questionable credibility poster that happenned... and their reply was that "it never could have happened, or was a Leica person there authorized to give such information"...  I hope  you understand that you keep promoting some fiction information (that trolls usually create on web) as being facts... OTOH, there where never rumors on Sinar's new products posted on web, nor there will ever be...

As far as the SL's target group, I've nothing else to say but to repeat what I said earlier...

..."if Leica wanted to compete with Sony, they could make a Q with interchangeable lens (that would surely cost less than the Q since there would be no lens involved)... obviously Leica targeted to what they think that their users would currently need... they can make an interchangeable lens Q whenever they like and wish"...

I suppose that there is none (sensible) who can argue with that...  8)  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Chairman Bill on October 27, 2015, 09:23:08 am
A Leica will only ever be a direct competitor when it's drawing on the same market share, and that means it has to be a credible alternative to whatever other manufacturer(s) is in that market. Given the cost of a Leica, that is simply not happening, and there's nothing to suggest that is going to change any time soon.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: pegelli on October 27, 2015, 10:37:52 am
is claimed by a questionable credibility poster
If you don't have the ability to have a discussion on a difference of opinion without resorting to personal attacks the only thing that happens is that your own credibility goes below zero. I hope we can resume the discussion without this and focus on the question you put at the start of this thread.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 27, 2015, 12:25:12 pm
If you don't have the ability to have a discussion on a difference of opinion without resorting to personal attacks the only thing that happens is that your own credibility goes below zero. I hope we can resume the discussion without this and focus on the question you put at the start of this thread.

A questionable credibility poster is one that posts fiction as facts that (hypothetically) happened during his presence.... In this case the "troll" posted that he asked a Leica official during an event where the SL was presented, "if the S lens adapter for SL would support leaf shutter operation of S-lenses when it appears on the market".... He claims that the answer was that "it won't.. and the ability will be excluded from any future upgrade, because Leica wants to leave a reason for S-customers to still buy an S camera...

Now, because the SL can in no way reduce S sales (it's rather the opposite if lenses have a wider spread), I bothered to call Leica and informed them on the claim... The answer I got is that the post was pure fiction and that there was no qualified personel present in the event that could possibly know or authorised to answer in anything that is not yet produced by Leica... In other words a pure troll post that aimed to damage Leica for a reason that only the poster knows... The "info" was then multiplied by Synn in this discussion... Obviously none could ever stop you in jumping in whatever conclusion you want... but you may always call Leica  yourself as well if you want to confirm the credibility of every web troll fictitious dream is presented to us as "private and exclusive info"...

EDIT: OTOH, I never posted fiction as facts so that one may comment on my credibility, all I did is notice design aspects ( and announcements of adapters) that differ from competition, and given Leica's tradition and abilities, I predicted some uses of the particular camera, (within the rest of Leica family pro equipment), adaptation of which third party cameras don't have the abilities to perform and that would strengthen the Leica family line of products up (without further investment)... IMO, if I see a maker of view cameras producing an MFDB and having the lenses that provide the appropriate image circle as to serve the MFDB, it is pure common sense to combine the use of these products thus adding sales and faithful customers... If to some, this (the obvious) is a not (!!!) a probable move... then, (IMO) they consider the maker as being naive... but I'm sure that Leica is anything but naive...  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: eronald on October 27, 2015, 07:57:09 pm
Just purchased an A7sII for a project because of the 4k and image stabilization, including low light.


The cameras don't matter if they perform, regardless of cost. The imagery matters, success matters.


IMO

BC

So, post some images.

As you say, stabilisers on the little cams seem to have got amazing - I cannot believe how good the lens stab on my GH4 is, handheld waist-level video use is feasible. Stabilisation has now arrived as a major feature rather than a gadget.

Canon and Nikon have put a lot of work into the "pro" bodies - they're unfussy and live outside a bag, they focus fast,  and batteries live forever.  You pick one up, it's ready to go.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 28, 2015, 03:01:37 am


The cameras don't matter if they perform, regardless of cost. The imagery matters, success matters.



Sure they do, for most people who are not making money from photography.
If two brands offer pretty much the same thing and one of them is thrice as expensive, such people find it hard to justify the purchase. Whatever brands that might be.

This is not a Ford vs BMW thing. No one gives a flying duck what camera you bring to the gig, unlike the car you show up in. Brand level arguments inthe camera world are more related to use case scenarios than prestige (In most cases, at least).
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 28, 2015, 05:21:24 am
Sure they do, for most people who are not making money from photography.
If two brands offer pretty much the same thing and one of them is thrice as expensive, such people find it hard to justify the purchase. Whatever brands that might be.

+1

Besides, if you are heavily invested in AF lenses in a given mount, it takes a huge differentiator to convince people to switch over.

The a7 managed to do that for some Canon users thanks to compactness, better image quality and also a reasonable ability to re-use their existing lenses.

The Leica doesn't offer any of that (at least for still shooters)... and is much more expensive.

I am with BC in wishing the best to Leica, but I don't think they have put very attractive cards on the table this time around.

Honestly, I am not even tempted by the SL as a still shooter, while I have been tempted by the S system because of the lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 10:45:08 am
+1

Besides, if you are heavily invested in AF lenses in a given mount, it takes a huge differentiator to convince people to switch over.

The a7 managed to do that for some Canon users thanks to compactness, better image quality and also a reasonable ability to re-use their existing lenses.

The Leica doesn't offer any of that (at least for still shooters)... and is much more expensive.

I am with BC in wishing the best to Leica, but I don't think they have put very attractive cards on the table this time around.

Honestly, I am not even tempted by the SL as a still shooter, while I have been tempted by the S system because of the lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

What all the above has to do with Leica LS's target group? ...They may apply to you or many others, but really... do you expect Leica to address a camera to the mass market? Leica's aim is to provide a mirrorless cross platform that would provide solutions (better than a Sony A7 would) to pros that already use Leica-family equipment or plan to use Leica-family equipment... That is unless you can show a professional a way of using his "S" lenses on Sony A (with full interface compatibility as Leica claims that the S-adapter will do) and use the same lenses (and some more of the Leica family - again with full interface compatibility) for motion pictures captures (of pro quality), or if you know a way to use a Sony A instead of an MFDB on a Sinar camera with the S-lenses on the front standard (and even Hasselblad-H or Contax 645 lenses via the S-adapter) and again full interface compatibility... Do you? (know a way of doing the above)...

I really don't see why Leica should have designed a camera for your needs (that don't include the above uses) or others that also don't or have these uses under their plans... But clearly, why should Leica care on what you (or others) think that their target group should be? They clearly don't give a dime..., They have designed a product that will enhance and tighten up further the relationship and faithfulness of their existing customers to the firm, that will provide further solutions and abilities to the same users, that will attract more customers to the Sinar family of products and a product that is under their (limited) capability of number of units that can be produced...

Did it ever occur to you that a pro Leica S user with only 4-5 lenses (not necessarily S-lenses, Hassy H or C645 will also do), if will add this body to his system and a Sinar view camera will be able to perform all possible pro photographic tasks (inc. pro motion captures with or without the view camera & still captures that need a view camera) with the same lenses (minimal of equipment - very important for pros and very cost saving too) and with full interface communication between body and lenses?

This insist of (some) people comparing apples with ...chocolate bars really annoys me! Especially if they insist that a product should only apply on their (very limited) applications/needs of what a camera should be as if they are the "center of earth"...

Pros (and therefore Leica) don't care of the (limited) use YOU (and some others) do to a camera and if for that (limited) use a Sony A7 would be sufficient to you... They do care to maximize (software & hardware) compatibility and quality as well as reducing equipment they have to carry... they don't give a dime on what specification interests you or most of the rest of consumers... Cost efficiency is another factor they consider... and this is highly dependent on the their ability to perform tasks, the time needed to do so, the (technological) time resistance of the equipment they use and of course reliability and quality offered to customers for all the tasks they may perform... ...See?
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: DucatiTerminator on October 28, 2015, 11:53:28 am

Did it ever occur to you that a pro Leica S user with only 4-5 lenses (not necessarily S-lenses, Hassy H or C645 will also do), if will add this body to his system and a Sinar view camera will be able to perform all possible pro photographic tasks (inc. pro motion captures with or without the view camera & still captures that need a view camera) with the same lenses (minimal of equipment - very important for pros and very cost saving too) and with full interface communication between body and lenses?

This insist of (some) people comparing apples with ...chocolate bars really annoys me! Especially if they insist that a product should only apply on their (very limited) applications/needs of what a camera should be as if they are the "center of earth"...

Pros (and therefore Leica) don't care of the (limited) use YOU (and some others) do to a camera and if for that (limited) use a Sony A7 would be sufficient to you... They do care to maximize (software & hardware) compatibility and quality as well as reducing equipment they have to carry... they don't give a dime on what specification interests you or most of the rest of consumers... Cost efficiency is another factor they consider... and this is highly dependent on the their ability to perform tasks, the time needed to do so, the (technological) time resistance of the equipment they use and of course reliability and quality offered to customers for all the tasks they may perform... ...See?

Tell us how you really feel, LOL.

Did it ever occur to YOU that the pro Leica S user with only 4-5 lenses that also shoot with a Sinar view camera is very small? You seem to be describing what YOU want, and some of what Leica is doing seems to fit what YOU like, but seriously bro, you often sound like a Leica/Sinar fanboy. Considering you also have your not-so-subtle jabs at PhaseOne, are you not guilty of that which you are accusing others? I'm guessing P1 has an idea of what their target group wants, and the price they are willing to pay to get it. Just sayin'.

Who cares what anyone (especially those who fall in the mass market category) thinks about the success of the SL or any other Leica/Sinar product? Doesn't matter if it fits anyone else's personal needs/wants -- it just matters if it fits yours. The Asian market alone can likely support this product line anyways, so I hope it does well even if it doesn't end up being the "Pro" camera Leica intends it to be.

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 28, 2015, 12:03:14 pm
What all the above has to do with Leica LS's target group? ...They may apply to you or many others, but really... do you expect Leica to address a camera to the mass market? Leica's aim is to provide a mirrorless cross platform that would provide solutions (better than a Sony A7 would) to pros that already use Leica-family equipment or plan to use Leica-family equipment...

That's an exceedingly small number of users.

It's like Rolls-Royce bringing out a new model, that also works with other Rolls Royce accessories. The exclusivity drives up the profile of the brand, but the model itself (and the brand of car) is largely irrelevant, both to the general public (who can't afford it or wouldn't spend that much on a car) or to commercial/business users (who find that spending half a million dollars on a car a waste of money when they can do the same job just as well with something a tenth the price).

Did it ever occur to you that a pro Leica S user with only 4-5 lenses (not necessarily S-lenses, Hassy H or C645 will also do), if will add this body to his system and a Sinar view camera will be able to perform all possible pro photographic tasks (inc. pro motion captures with or without the view camera & still captures that need a view camera) with the same lenses (minimal of equipment - very important for pros and very cost saving too) and with full interface communication between body and lenses?

Yes, it can accomplish all possible pro photographic tasks - most of them not very well, or at least not up to the same standard as dedicated equipment, and at three times the price of other equipment that can do the same job.

Besides, all tasks? Try shooting a live concert in a dark venue, without flash, with rapidly-changing lighting. Then shoot a high-resolution (at least 6k) aerial video of a lion pouncing on an impala from a drone. Then shoot an ultra-high-resolution (at least 500 megapixel) panorama of a mountain vista at sunset, for use in a 3Dfx cinematography segment. Think you can do justice to all three tasks with one camera?

Quote
Pros (and therefore Leica) don't care of the (limited) use YOU (and some others) do to a camera and if for that (limited) use a Sony A7 would be sufficient to you... They do care to maximize (software & hardware) compatibility and quality as well as reducing equipment they have to carry... they don't give a dime on what specification interests you or most of the rest of consumers... Cost efficiency is another factor they consider... and this is highly dependent on the their ability to perform tasks, the time needed to do so, the (technological) time resistance of the equipment they use and of course reliability and quality offered to customers for all the tasks they may perform... ...See?

Your definition of a 'pro' is extremely limited - perhaps even more limited than those action shooters who insist that only those who shoot fast action in low light for press (hence needing high ISO, low resolution, high frame rate, low shutter lag and fast ergonomics).

I know a lot of pro photographers in a lot of different fields, who make money from their photography. Wedding photographers, sports photographers, commercial/fashion photographers (both studio/tethered and location), travel photographers, film cinematographers, videographers, photojournalists and landscape photographers. Both freelancers and those shooting for an agency. None of them shoot Leica, nor do they show any interest in their products. Most could easily afford to use Leica gear if they wanted to. There is almost no photographic application where the Leica S, Leica M or other Leica gear is the best tool for the task, let alone the best bang for the buck. Depending on what they shoot, I see them using Phase One, Mamiya, Canon, Nikon, Sony and Red bodies and digital backs, and lenses that range from Sigma to Rodenstock. These are the Toyota sedans, the Isuzu trucks and the Landcruisers of the camera world - the best tool for the task, depending on what you're trying to accomplish, and the tools of the professional world.

I know five or six enthusiasts who shoot Leica (mostly Leica M, but two Leica S). None of them make a cent from photography. They also like to show off their gear, in a 'mine's bigger than yours' fashion. To them, the Leica is like a fancy toy, a piece of jewellery or a Rolls Royce luxury car - something to show off rather than the best tool for the task (unless the task is to show off).
Title: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor? we agree that the answer is "no"
Post by: BJL on October 28, 2015, 12:08:59 pm
Leica's aim is to provide a mirrorless cross platform that would provide solutions (better than a Sony A7 would) to pros that already use Leica-family equipment or plan to use Leica-family equipment...
I am glad we all now agree that, despite your original subject line for this thread, the Leica SL is in now way "a Sony A7 direct competitor", and Leica is instead targeting a market about 100 times smaller: those what want to use excellent and very expensive lenses designed for one format (45x30mm for S lenses, or 54x42 for Hasselblad lenses) on a body that imposes a heavy FOV crop on those lenses.

Since you have also mentioned using Leica's cine-lenses: those are designed for the "cinema 35mm formats", with their advertised image circle size too small to cover the full 36x24mm frame, and as far as I know the SL does not offer a cropped video mode.  So it would seem that there are better choices for PL mount video cameras to use with those lenses.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor? we agree that the answer is "no"
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 01:19:40 pm
I am glad we all now agree that, despite your original subject line for this thread, the Leica SL is in now way "a Sony A7 direct competitor", and Leica is instead targeting a market about 100 times smaller: those what want to use excellent and very expensive lenses designed for one format (45x30mm for S lenses, or 54x42 for Hasselblad lenses) on a body that imposes a heavy FOV crop on those lenses.

Since you have also mentioned using Leica's cine-lenses: those are designed for the "cinema 35mm formats", with their advertised image circle size too small to cover the full 36x24mm frame, and as far as I know the SL does not offer a cropped video mode.  So it would seem that there are better choices for PL mount video cameras to use with those lenses.

The O/P title was before the camera's specification was out and it does end with a question mark...  It was a question based on the information that there was another FF mirrorless coming in the market from Leica and the fact that Sony was the only FF mirrorless available before Leica's introduction.... I guess if Leica would have released a Q with interchangeable lens, all the "bullying compare" that the usual trolls are trying to impose would make more sense...

I never mentioned Leica's cine lenses... I did mention that the SL can now be used for good enough professional video (quality is always judged over the limits of the equipment's cost) with one's existing Leica S lenses (or Hasselblad H/Contax 645 ones) in combination with or without a Sinar view camera and have full interface control over them...

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 02:24:28 pm

Yes, it can accomplish all possible pro photographic tasks - most of them not very well, or at least not up to the same standard as dedicated equipment, and at three times the price of other equipment that can do the same job.


Well... I guess "most of them not very well" and "at least not up to the same standard as dedicated equipment" are two completely different things... One has to define (according to his photographic skills) what is "very well" and what cost is involved on the project... I've seen pros abandoning their Monolith + Rodies + MFDB for a Sony A7 + Cambo Actus with Mamyia RZ lenses and still delivering images to their customers that are of superb quality... I've seen other pros using their (very old) MFDB on a Fuji GX-680 and still deliver "drop dead" quality images... I've even seen pros filming with Black Magic for "cracking" cinema quality and even using a Panasonic for some scenes...

I guess that none of the above (or the rest of the meaningless that you posted) has anything to do with a pro that is a Leica S user and integrates an SL on his system as well as using the SL on his (Sinar) view camera instead of an MFDB with full interface communication and the minimum of investment as to add extra tasks...

...and NO... (of course not)... it won't do it "not very well" - it will rather perform on all targets very well indeed (even if there is much more expensive equipment out there that aims to perfection). In addition the (skillful) user will keep costs down and increase maneuverability than if one uses another mirrorless, because he will save on the extra lenses that he needs and he will take advantage of the interface communication as to both maximize the performance of the (very capable for the price) equipment he has under maximum control (with the help of the maker and the compatibility with the rest of the family) as to use the full potential of his skills. 

P.S. the phrase "at three times the cost" made me really laugh... you seem to be counting "the bodies only"...   :o ;D
P.S-2... Yes, all tasks, including those you mention...  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MarkL on October 28, 2015, 03:05:35 pm
I know a lot of pro photographers in a lot of different fields, who make money from their photography. Wedding photographers, sports photographers, commercial/fashion photographers (both studio/tethered and location), travel photographers, film cinematographers, videographers, photojournalists and landscape photographers. Both freelancers and those shooting for an agency. None of them shoot Leica, nor do they show any interest in their products. Most could easily afford to use Leica gear if they wanted to. There is almost no photographic application where the Leica S, Leica M or other Leica gear is the best tool for the task, let alone the best bang for the buck. Depending on what they shoot, I see them using Phase One, Mamiya, Canon, Nikon, Sony and Red bodies and digital backs, and lenses that range from Sigma to Rodenstock. These are the Toyota sedans, the Isuzu trucks and the Landcruisers of the camera world - the best tool for the task, depending on what you're trying to accomplish, and the tools of the professional world.

I know five or six enthusiasts who shoot Leica (mostly Leica M, but two Leica S). None of them make a cent from photography. They also like to show off their gear, in a 'mine's bigger than yours' fashion. To them, the Leica is like a fancy toy, a piece of jewellery or a Rolls Royce luxury car - something to show off rather than the best tool for the task (unless the task is to show off).

Indeed. Leica's are luxury products (priced and marketed accordingly) not the choice as a professional workhorse.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 28, 2015, 03:36:52 pm
Hi,

I don't think one aspect excludes the other. Just two examples:

The Sony IPhones are sort of a lifestyle products, commanding comparatively high prices, but they are very usable mobile devices.

The Leica S in it's different invocations is probably a quite useful tool, probably offering reasonable value for the price.

Best regards
Erik


Indeed. Leica's are luxury products (priced and marketed accordingly) not the choice as a professional workhorse.
Title: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor? - You're kidding me, right ?
Post by: Manoli on October 28, 2015, 04:08:03 pm
If Leica want to stay relevant :

Give the world an option of a true M, with the EVF of the SL and no rangefinder, at a cost that makes economic sense. The M still outperforms the SL with M lenses.

Convince the world that the S will be able to compete sensor wise with the Sony fuelled Hassy's, P1's and Pentax's MF – and by that I mean resolution wise as well as IQ. So far, an upper limit of 37.5 MP and zero indication of a future roadmap is limiting. Otherwise, if and when a true full frame MF CMOS sensor arrives, they'll be dead in the water. Sinar, or not.

Refine the SL. First reports show banding and noise as compared to the Sony bog simple  A7II – not even talking about the A7rII.  Inferior at 4x the price - not great. From an aesthetic pov, why they didn't put the guts of the SL into an alternative 'S' body instead of the Bauhaus-inspired box is anybody's guess – sexy curves are cool , boxes less so.

Stop trying to be a jack-of-all trades and master of none. They've got the largest installed base of high IQ lenses (M) and arguably the best MF glass out there (S). Give us the boxes to take advantage of them as well as delivering modern AF versions.

Blueprint for success ? The most successful Leica of recent times, the D-LUX(typ109) otherwise known as the Panasonic LX100 (with a nod to the Leica Q).   

Panasonic electronics, Leica glass - wash, rinse, repeat.

Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor? - You're kidding me, right ?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 28, 2015, 04:45:11 pm
Hi,

Yeah. But I may prefer the Panasonic label. Panasonic GH models are serious cameras. With the red dot you never now.

Best regards
Erik

If Leica want to stay relevant :

Give the world an option of a true M, with the EVF of the SL and no rangefinder, at a cost that makes economic sense. The M still outperforms the SL with M lenses.

Convince the world that the S will be able to compete sensor wise with the Sony fuelled Hassy's, P1's and Pentax's MF – and by that I mean resolution wise as well as IQ. So far, an upper limit of 37.5 MP and zero indication of a future roadmap is limiting. Otherwise, if and when a true full frame MF CMOS sensor arrives, they'll be dead in the water. Sinar, or not.

Refine the SL. First reports show banding and noise as compared to the Sony bog simple  A7II – not even talking about the A7rII.  Inferior at 4x the price - not great. From an aesthetic pov, why they didn't put the guts of the SL into an alternative 'S' body instead of the Bauhaus-inspired box is anybody's guess – sexy curves are cool , boxes less so.

Stop trying to be a jack-of-all trades and master of none. They've got the largest installed base of high IQ lenses (M) and arguably the best MF glass out there (S). Give us the boxes to take advantage of them as well as delivering modern AF versions.

Blueprint for success ? The most successful Leica of recent times, the D-LUX(typ109) otherwise known as the Panasonic LX100 (with a nod to the Leica Q).   

Panasonic electronics, Leica glass - wash, rinse, repeat.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 06:33:23 pm
Indeed. Leica's are luxury products (priced and marketed accordingly) not the choice as a professional workhorse.

 ???   I don't know any law that prohibits pro users from using Leica (if you know one please enlighten us...  :o), but I know lots of pros (in this forum too) that have replaced their MF cameras & MFDBs for Leica S... This, (the SL) seems to also be very attractive to many pros I know... It's all a matter of looking around you...  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 28, 2015, 06:42:39 pm
Well... I guess "most of them not very well" and "at least not up to the same standard as dedicated equipment" are two completely different things... One has to define (according to his photographic skills) what is "very well" and what cost is involved on the project... I've seen pros abandoning their Monolith + Rodies + MFDB for a Sony A7 + Cambo Actus with Mamyia RZ lenses and still delivering images to their customers that are of superb quality... I've seen other pros using their (very old) MFDB on a Fuji GX-680 and still deliver "drop dead" quality images... I've even seen pros filming with Black Magic for "cracking" cinema quality and even using a Panasonic for some scenes...

All of these are examples of using dedicated equipment to get the best possible result. A7r plus Actus plus stitching gives you a higher resolution than any MFDB. Blackmagic gives you cinema quality at a fraction of the cost.

Using the same Leica for every shot delivers neither the best possible result nor the best cost-benefit ratio.

Quote
I guess that none of the above (or the rest of the meaningless that you posted) has anything to do with a pro that is a Leica S user and integrates an SL on his system as well as using the SL on his (Sinar) view camera instead of an MFDB with full interface communication and the minimum of investment as to add extra tasks...

Nope, because that's probably around 50 people worldwide and such a small group as to be irrelevant.

Quote
...and NO... (of course not)... it won't do it "not very well" - it will rather perform on all targets very well indeed (even if there is much more expensive equipment out there that aims to perfection). In addition the (skillful) user will keep costs down and increase maneuverability than if one uses another mirrorless, because he will save on the extra lenses that he needs and he will take advantage of the interface communication as to both maximize the performance of the (very capable for the price) equipment he has under maximum control (with the help of the maker and the compatibility with the rest of the family) as to use the full potential of his skills. 

P.S. the phrase "at three times the cost" made me really laugh... you seem to be counting "the bodies only"...   :o ;D
P.S-2... Yes, all tasks, including those you mention...  ;)

If I counted the lenses as well as the bodies, it would be more than three times the cost. Sure, you might need one or two extra lenses (you don't normally need to duplicate every focal length in every format - for instance I don't need a 500 f/4 with fast AF to shoot landscapes with an A7r, nor do I need a 14-24 f/2.8 to shoot wildlife with a 1Dx). But you can buy several optically-equivalent lenses for the price of one Leica.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 28, 2015, 06:45:23 pm
???   I don't know any law that prohibits pro users from using Leica (if you know one please enlighten us...  :o), but I know lots of pros (in this forum too) that have replaced their MF cameras & MFDBs for Leica S... This, (the SL) seems to also be very attractive to many pros I know... It's all a matter of looking around you...  ;)

There's nothing prohibiting pro users from shooting with a Canon Rebel or an old Nikon film camera either.

Just like the Leica, though, they're just not very attractive options - not when there are other cameras out there that can do the job better, and, in the case of Leica, at a much lower cost.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 06:50:23 pm
There's nothing prohibiting pro users from shooting with a Canon Rebel or an old Nikon film camera either.

Just like the Leica, though, they're just not very attractive options - not when there are other cameras out there that can do the job better, and, in the case of Leica, at a much lower cost.

Sure thing... that's why so many pros replace their MF + MFDB with an S... It does a much better job at a much lower cost!  ;)
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 28, 2015, 06:56:34 pm
Sure thing... that's why so many pros replace their MF + MFDB with an S... It does a much better job at a much lower cost!  ;)

Maybe a few.

There are dozens I know of here in Australia alone who won't even consider it (and pretty much laughed in the face of the Leica rep when she was extolling its virtues and 'advantages' at a recent seminar/promotion), since the MFDB gives better results (30x45mm sensor size isn't that much bigger than full-frame) with much more flexibility in lens and body selection, while costing less.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 28, 2015, 07:07:59 pm
Maybe a few.

There are dozens I know of here in Australia alone who won't even consider it (and pretty much laughed in the face of the Leica rep when she was extolling its virtues and 'advantages' at a recent seminar/promotion), since the MFDB gives better results (30x45mm sensor size isn't that much bigger than full-frame) with much more flexibility in lens and body selection, while costing less.

30x45 is as much as 32.smth x 43.smth... (and much, much bigger than 35mm... more than 1.5x)... I have two MFDBs (both with multishot ability) for you to tell me what an MFDB can do or what a "quality" image is... After all art reproduction is my profession and it is the most demanding photography for a HQ print.... I hope this satisfies you because I had enough of all this (meaningless) "chit-chat"...
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: DucatiTerminator on October 28, 2015, 07:48:41 pm
30x45 is as much as 32.smth x 43.smth... (and much, much bigger than 35mm... more than 1.5x)... I have two MFDBs (both with multishot ability) for you to tell me what an MFDB can do or what a "quality" image is... After all art reproduction is my profession and it is the most demanding photography for a HQ print.... I hope this satisfies you because I had enough of all this (meaningless) "chit-chat"...
Awesome! So you're saying that Leica is going to offer multishot? Or is that why you hope Leica buys Hasselblad? What happens if Phase buys them?  :P

Relax, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everything has to be an argument or justification.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: shadowblade on October 28, 2015, 08:49:43 pm
30x45 is as much as 32.smth x 43.smth... (and much, much bigger than 35mm... more than 1.5x)... I have two MFDBs (both with multishot ability) for you to tell me what an MFDB can do or what a "quality" image is... After all art reproduction is my profession and it is the most demanding photography for a HQ print.... I hope this satisfies you because I had enough of all this (meaningless) "chit-chat"...

Art photography is hardly the most demanding area of photography. Yes, it's demanding in several areas - colour accuracy, flat field focus, lack of distortions and aberrations (all but the first being lens factors). But it's not terribly demanding of resolution (especially single-shot resolution - what you're shooting doesn't move, so you can use multiple-exposure techniques), doesn't demand fast lenses and demands nothing at all of image quality above base ISO. Not to mention non-IQ factors such as frame rate, AF, auto exposure, etc.

30x45 is 1.5625x the area of full-frame. But it's only 0.6x the area of a Phase One 41x54mm digital back, which is pretty much the gold standard of MFDBs.

I've shot the Leica S2 side-by-side with the Phase One IQ180 and Nikon D810, in a landscape test shoot. I wasn't too impressed with the Leica, beyond the quality of the body itself (the construction and build quality being impeccable, as usual with Leica). The image quality was similar to the D810 - whether at 100% or whole-image level, it was hard to see any significant difference, beyond differences in colour rendering. Both fell behind the IQ180. And the Phase One system costs less than the Leica.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: synn on October 29, 2015, 12:56:17 am


I guess that none of the above (or the rest of the meaningless that you posted) has anything to do with a pro that is a Leica S user and integrates an SL on his system as well as using the SL on his (Sinar) view camera instead of an MFDB with full interface communication and the minimum of investment as to add extra tasks...

- leica S user:
small user group to start with

- leica S user who wants to add an SL to his kit:
even smaller user group

- Leica S user who also has an SL who ALSO needs a Sinar view camera where he must use the S lenses with full electronic communication (which doesn't exist and has not even been rumored, but for your sake let's pretend it does):
positively tiny user group that makes the Phase One install base look like that of Canon's.


Congratulations! Leica has made the perfect ecosystem for all 7 of you around the globe! Increase the rose tint of your glasses by another 15% and we can even see them offer multishot, which makes it perfect for ONE person in the world!

P.s. Regarding the "Many pros are switching from MFDB to Leica" statement, I would like to see some numbers Instead of hot air. BC is the only top commercial  and conceptual shooter for example that I can think of who is consistently working with an S system. Names like Drew Gardner, Miss Aniela, Joey L, Benjamin Von Wong, Frank Doorhof are all still happily using MFDB.

It's fine if one is a fan of a niche system. No, really. But to bend all logic to suit your narrative about them, dude. Take a few breaths.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 29, 2015, 01:33:13 am
Hi,

Thanks for the info. I have not seen a lot of raw images from the Leica, but those I have seen did not blow my socks off.

Best regards
Erik

Art photography is hardly the most demanding area of photography. Yes, it's demanding in several areas - colour accuracy, flat field focus, lack of distortions and aberrations (all but the first being lens factors). But it's not terribly demanding of resolution (especially single-shot resolution - what you're shooting doesn't move, so you can use multiple-exposure techniques), doesn't demand fast lenses and demands nothing at all of image quality above base ISO. Not to mention non-IQ factors such as frame rate, AF, auto exposure, etc.

30x45 is 1.5625x the area of full-frame. But it's only 0.6x the area of a Phase One 41x54mm digital back, which is pretty much the gold standard of MFDBs.

I've shot the Leica S2 side-by-side with the Phase One IQ180 and Nikon D810, in a landscape test shoot. I wasn't too impressed with the Leica, beyond the quality of the body itself (the construction and build quality being impeccable, as usual with Leica). The image quality was similar to the D810 - whether at 100% or whole-image level, it was hard to see any significant difference, beyond differences in colour rendering. Both fell behind the IQ180. And the Phase One system costs less than the Leica.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: rainer_v on October 29, 2015, 03:58:00 am
... and it would be a nice detail which wouldnt cost much to Leica, but could bring them back reputation: They even dont speak about the fabulous Sinar S lenses, which are from similar quality ( and had similar prices ) than the leica s lenses,are fully electronically, have an easy adaptable mount and are a complete dead end.
details as to make these work again on the S or SL would bring back confidence in the Sinar and in the Leica brand, but they simply forget this system.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: MatthewCromer on October 29, 2015, 11:28:08 am
The DPReview Leica SL samples are horrible. Let's hope it's a broken camera - banding everywhere.
Title: Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
Post by: Theodoros on October 30, 2015, 11:52:09 am
There is a closely related subject (as SL seems perfect for the application having the wider mount out of all FF mirrorless) that I started on the MF forum...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105069.0#new