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Author Topic: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?  (Read 38459 times)

Theodoros

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Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« on: October 19, 2015, 03:33:49 pm »

It seems that Leica will be announcing a mirrorless with EVF and FF sensor in the following days (probably tomorrow). Since the T mount is (more than) wide enough to accept a FF sensor, it looks that it will be a T mount with FF sensor (just like Sony A7 was from the NEX)...

Now since these kind of cameras seem ideal for use with the new "mini size" view cameras from Arca (universalis) & Cambo (Actus) instead of an MFDB, one would expect (the in family) Sinar to also enter the mini view camera competition and thus Leica's move seems very sensible indeed as it would provide a complete mini view camera combination (with S lenses mount included? ...that would mean Contax C645 also..). Very interesting if it proves true!
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synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 03:54:31 pm »

At the rumored price of roughly one Hasselblad CFV50c back, I am sure it will be a "direct competitor " to the Sony and of course, supersede every MFDB ever made and will also make you toast in the morning.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 04:11:06 pm by synn »
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 04:12:34 pm »

At the rumored price of roughly one Hasselblad CSV50c back, I am sure it will be a "direct competitor " to the Sony and of course, supersede every MFDB ever made and will also make you toast in the morning.
Hi Synn... what was the rumored price you refer to?  I don't expect any FF camera to cost more than double the price of its APS-C counterpart... May be you prejudge with your brains left with your "XF body dream"?  ;D
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BJL

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 04:33:44 pm »

Hi Synn... what was the rumored price you refer to?  I don't expect any FF camera to cost more than double the price of its APS-C counterpart... May be you prejudge with your brains left with your "XF body dream"?  ;D
The Leica T ($1600) is a rear-screen only ("viewfinder-free") model, comparable (apart from Leica magic and its older 16MP sensor) to the entry level Sony a5100, currently about US$400.  With Sony (and more generally) the price gap from such "viewfinder-less" models and the cheapest 36x24mm format models us often a factor of four or five.  With the Leica T costing four times as much as the Sony a5100, it is reasonable to expect that any new Leica will likewise come at a price several time greater its Sony counterpart.
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2015, 04:49:40 pm »

The Leica T ($1600) is a rear-screen only ("viewfinder-free") model, comparable (apart from Leica magic and its older 16MP sensor) to the entry level Sony a5100, currently about US$400.  With Sony (and more generally) the price gap from such "viewfinder-less" models and the cheapest 36x24mm format models us often a factor of four or five.  With the Leica T costing four times as much as the Sony a5100, it is reasonable to expect that any new Leica will likewise come at a price several time greater its Sony counterpart.

The 5100 is an entry level camera sharing only the mount with the rest of the series... Leica doesn't have to improve the body quality of the T, not of the screen or the buttons... they only have to put the FF sensor in the same mount and a same cost (even if the aesthetics will be slightly different) body as well as the rest of the peripherals... Never the less, it is very sensible that this should be at a significantly lesser cost than the M...
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jjj

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2015, 05:23:53 pm »

People buy Leicas partially because they are expensive.
No much point in them making a cheap one.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2015, 05:33:28 pm »

Rumored to be ~$10k with the 28-90 zoom

Leica SL Typ601 camera:
Sensor 24MP CMOS
Full autofocus support
4K Video

New SL lenses:
Leica Vario-ELMARIT-SL 1:. 2.8-4 / 24-90 mm ​​ASPH
Leica Apo-Vario-ELMARIT-SL 1: 2.8-4 / 90-280 mm
Leica Summilux-SL 1: 1.4 / 50 mm ASPH.
Summilux-TL 35 mm ASPH.
Macro-ELMARIT-TL 60 mm ASPH.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 05:37:32 pm »

The 5100 is an entry level camera sharing only the mount with the rest of the series...

No, it has the same sensor as the a6000 with a super fast on chip AF.

I have been using one for more than a year and this thing is just amazing!

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 05:58:19 pm »

It's other things that concern me than being involved in a stupid conversation of guessing a price that will be know in a couple of days or so...

"Does one knows the sensor to mount distance of the T"? ...that's what I'd like to know... because if it is less than the A and given that "T" mount is wider than the "a", this camera would be even better to use on a mini view camera instead of a digital back with my C645 lenses... and since the sensor is expected to be a cropped version of the S007 one... then, ...pheeeeeewww! ...now, where is that new Sinar mini view camera?  8)
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rogan

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2015, 09:06:35 pm »

I own the Q and the A7rII
The Q may be my favorite camera ever to shoot with but don't fool yourself, the files aren't close. I'm guessing the SL and the Q are the same chip and basic camera guts. The Q is crazy fast AF, awesome EVF and the manual focus is heads above sony's. But launching with one prime and two zooms? I don't shoot Leica for zooms. And sorry but 24 mp isn't enough for that $$. I want to crop if needed to 24 mp.
That all said, the Q is insane as a street camera and if the made a fixed lens 50mm I would buy it as well. But if image quality and retail/sharpness is important this won't be close to the sony's.
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2015, 10:05:31 pm »

Leica (and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad) is becoming a relic of the film era, a company whose camera division subsists on nostalgia and name recognition more than actual performance. In a way, it has become a luxury label in the same vein as Prada or Rolex - their gear commands high prices without being objectively better than their competitors. In a way, their price commands rarity, which reinforces their exclusivity as a luxury product, which, in a positive feedback loop, justifies their high prices.

Yes, they do make good gear - their lenses are equal with the best. But Zeiss lenses (and some Sigma, Canon and Nikon lenses) perform just as well on any measurable level, and cost a quarter to half as much. Their bodies are well-constructed, but performance is limited - their sensor isn't the best out there (nor is it the worst), there's no option for AF, no dual cards, etc. And, unlike the film days, you can't just swap in a better kind of film every time one is released.

Back in the film days, you could justify a high price point because the camera would serve you well for 10, 20 or more years and keep up with the competition for all that time. Not so with digital - any body you buy is going to be obsolete in a few years, unable to keep pace with the performance of the latest electronics, whether it's a $500 Rebel or an $8k Leica. Which becomes much harder to justify for anyone using it as a photographic tool rather than a status symbol.
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deanwork

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2015, 10:13:26 pm »

Exactly. Who is going to make these Leica chips? Who cares about the Leica name. You can put these old Leica lenses on the Sony and use manually. Who needs Leica. Photography as we knew it is over. This is ALL about consumer electronics now, and may the best chip win. Zeiss will make great lenses for all of them. They are a company that will survive. Hasselblad's days are numbered as well. People are sick and tired of paying three or four times more for a damn name. That's over.

john



Leica (and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad) is becoming a relic of the film era, a company whose camera division subsists on nostalgia and name recognition more than actual performance. In a way, it has become a luxury label in the same vein as Prada or Rolex - their gear commands high prices without being objectively better than their competitors. In a way, their price commands rarity, which reinforces their exclusivity as a luxury product, which, in a positive feedback loop, justifies their high prices.

Yes, they do make good gear - their lenses are equal with the best. But Zeiss lenses (and some Sigma, Canon and Nikon lenses) perform just as well on any measurable level, and cost a quarter to half as much. Their bodies are well-constructed, but performance is limited - their sensor isn't the best out there (nor is it the worst), there's no option for AF, no dual cards, etc. And, unlike the film days, you can't just swap in a better kind of film every time one is released.

Back in the film days, you could justify a high price point because the camera would serve you well for 10, 20 or more years and keep up with the competition for all that time. Not so with digital - any body you buy is going to be obsolete in a few years, unable to keep pace with the performance of the latest electronics, whether it's a $500 Rebel or an $8k Leica. Which becomes much harder to justify for anyone using it as a photographic tool rather than a status symbol.
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 10:37:49 pm »

Exactly. Who is going to make these Leica chips? Who cares about the Leica name. You can put these old Leica lenses on the Sony and use manually. Who needs Leica. Photography as we knew it is over. This is ALL about consumer electronics now, and may the best chip win. Zeiss will make great lenses for all of them. They are a company that will survive. Hasselblad's days are numbered as well. People are sick and tired of paying three or four times more for a damn name. That's over.

john

You know a company's really nuked the fridge when it takes a cheap camera (the guts of which are made by someone else), covers it with ostrich skin and rare woods, then markets it to celebrities for five times the price.

Hasselblad's already done it, and Leica's come close (everything but the garish decoration) - can't be long before they go the whole distance and release a solid-gold, diamond-encrusted A7 for $20k.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 11:33:45 pm »

The S pricing is high but ends up being compared to even more unreasonably priced P1 and Hassy, so somehow it feels almost acceptable (less so when comparing actual performance).

If the rumors are accurate for the pricing of their FF offering then I sadly predict a failure.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2015, 04:34:09 am »

Would people expect a Leica FF MILC to be the same price as the Sony A7 series? Really??

Leica are cleverly making very good digital cameras, from which the Q is their current technology showroom. Keep the simplicity, keep the lens quality, add the tech where it is needed. Same thing will happen with the L, or TL, or whatever it will be called.

Yes, Leica are expensive, so what is new? Move one.

shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2015, 05:24:13 am »

Would people expect a Leica FF MILC to be the same price as the Sony A7 series? Really??

Leica are cleverly making very good digital cameras, from which the Q is their current technology showroom. Keep the simplicity, keep the lens quality, add the tech where it is needed. Same thing will happen with the L, or TL, or whatever it will be called.

Yes, Leica are expensive, so what is new? Move one.

Keep them expensive and no-one will buy them, except celebrities and well-off hipsters using them mainly as status symbols. Not when they perform no better than cameras a third the price.

You no longer buy a camera and expect to use it for 10-20 years. They're throwaway accessories, similar to smartphones, to be used and then discarded when they are superseded by newer models. You can't apply the economics of the old, film-based model to the vastly-different way the digital system works.
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 06:31:17 am »

I believe that many people have the wrong idea about Leica... IMO, Leica traditionally aims to offer the best IQ possible out of any manufacturer and it factors the assisting parameters (ergonomics, build quality, reliability, functionality) as high as no other maker. IMO, they try to price their equipment as low as possible, but -obviously- the quality parameters add to cost... The recent pricing policy on the S-series, is a proof of the above... They now offer better performance than ever at near half the price than when the product started its career...

There was a very difficult path for Leica to retain its values (offering the best IQ possible) with them being late into the digital market as there was a (new) parameter involved in which they had no experience at all during the film days... that being the sensor! However... they seem to work highly on the matter as to not only catch-up, but surely to beat the competition as soon as possible and this shows again with the later introductions (S series & Q)... Another proof is that they have stick into the 6μm pixel size in all their exclusive sensors, which (I believe) they won't abandon unless they reach the level of performance that worths the Leica name... But none can argue that the more their recent products are appreciated, the better their pricing becomes!

I believe that the new camera will have a sensor that will be very closely related to a cropped version of the S 007 series, which would mean that it would be among the best performing sensors in the FF market... As for the body pricing, I strongly believe that the build quality will justify it better than ever before and also that it can't be more than the Q (since it will have no lens) but it will be significantly less than the "M" series too (it being a "T"-series that is the introductory interchangeable lens series). Never the less, I believe that all the later Leica introductions will be of surprisingly high sensor performance from what people expect having older Leicas in mind and that the next generation of sensors will be second to none in the market. I believe that the rate they introduce new sensors one being better than the other is a proof of that and that this rate won't slow down soon...

As a conclusion, I am sure that they won't be satisfied unless their sensors are on par with the same level of quality that accompanies the rest of the parameters they offer in their cameras and that their pricing will become better and better, as their market section keeps expanding with out ever making a compromise in quality... it's the Leica tradition! ...it's what kept them alive and kicking butts!

P.S. I also believe that they have big plans for Sinar... and since Sinar is expected to soon enter the "mini view camera" market that is aimed to use mirrorless cameras instead of a digital back, I believe that this camera is designed to perform this task as a major target behind the design... a parameter that has being highly (and constantly) ignored by the participants in this discussion.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 07:02:27 am by Theodoros »
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 07:39:20 am »

Here it is then.... http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/look-here-first-images-of-the-new-leica-sl-with-lenses/

A clear A7 competitor using T mount! ...I guess I should say "bingo" too... I also expect that pricing on the shops will be a lot different.... kind of the same price policy as with the S-007...
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shadowblade

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 07:41:26 am »

You no longer buy a camera and expect to use it for 10-20 years. They're throwaway accessories, similar to smartphones, to be used and then discarded when they are superseded by newer models. You can't apply the economics of the old, film-based model to the vastly-different way the digital system works.

Some folk just use cameras because they love 'em.

Would you go back and shoot professionally with a Canon D30 these days? And that's only 15 years old.
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synn

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 07:53:42 am »

I believe that many people have the wrong idea about Leica... IMO, Leica traditionally aims to offer the best IQ possible out of any manufacturer and it factors the assisting parameters (ergonomics, build quality, reliability, functionality) as high as no other maker. IMO, they try to price their equipment as low as possible, but -obviously- the quality parameters add to cost... The recent pricing policy on the S-series, is a proof of the above... They now offer better performance than ever at near half the price than when the product started its career...

There was a very difficult path for Leica to retain its values (offering the best IQ possible) with them being late into the digital market as there was a (new) parameter involved in which they had no experience at all during the film days... that being the sensor! However... they seem to work highly on the matter as to not only catch-up, but surely to beat the competition as soon as possible and this shows again with the later introductions (S series & Q)...


Wow. I haven't seen a hard sell pitch like this from the ACTUAL sales people on this forum. Go easy on the Kool-aid a bit, bro.

Quote from: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/look-here-first-images-of-the-new-leica-sl-with-lenses/
The price with 24-90mm as kit lens will be around 10.000 Euro

Sony A7 "Direct competitor" indeed.
I stand corrected, at this price, it not only is a direct competitor to the Sony, it will also supersede every MFDB ever made, will  make you toast in the morning AND babysit your kids while you enjoy a night out with the wife!
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