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Author Topic: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1  (Read 108848 times)

PaulSchneider

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Guys, we should compile the upgrade prices you were quoted alongside the initial price you paid for your system and how old it is. Just to get the true value math of phase one systems clearly on the table.

I would like to get some more transparency on the "value protection" concept phase once paraded around, so that it becomes clear, what you are buying into when getting a phase system.

I would suggest following format, for example:  

>> IQ180 DF+ in June 2013 for 48k USD, want to "upgrade" to IQ380 XF, got quoted 18k trade-in (just made this up)

Ie, you lost 30k of value in 24 months, i.e. more than 1k per month. In my view a bad investment, one would then be far better off to buy a two-generation old system in the forum and leave that 30k loss to the rich folks or professionals with tax subsidies.

Also I would like to understand how upgrade pricing changes over time, as I am sure there exist patterns. For example, now that the new back is out, it is probably good business sense for Phase to milk the demand and price the product on the top end of what is possible (especially since they are PE-backed, they will price on the high end as much as possible), especially with such affluent enthusiast clientele from China, wo gobble up high-end photographica like there's no tomorrow.

So: How do upgrade prices change over time?


Say, when I get quoted 18k now, might I get a system during a special promotion period for say 25k less? How long does this on average take? Are there patterns? It is also my understanding that Phase closely watches secondary market pricing in order to adjust upgrade trade-in value. Can we estimate their algorithm for this? Ie 3k USD premium over last 12 week forum and eBay sales?

What is your suggestion regarding best strategy to get a phase system and not feel bad that you lost in value a nice car in just two years?

Many thanks for your input!

Best,

P
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buckshot

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Hmm ... the whole deal has been so cloak and dagger for so long it ain’t gonna be easy getting at the numbers. For some reason people just don’t want to say what they paid - maybe out of embarrassment (in case someone pops up and says they got the same deal for much less), maybe because it will help someone else get a better deal, maybe because they’re afraid of a backlash from a dealer who made an under the table offer - who knows. In my experience what you’re gonna get above and beyond the official figures depends a lot on who you go to, how much business they’ve had from you, do you exchange Xmas cards etc.

Anyway, like I said - good luck - anything that empowers buyers is good because there’s no real competition in the MF sector to do it naturally.

Jim
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buckshot

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This was an interesting thread over on GetDPI, with the stand out thing of note being the $10k trade-in value for a ~1 year old IQ180. Since P1 have just dropped the price of the IQ180 following the release of the IQ380 (but not by nearly enough to put daylight between the two), I'd imagine you wouldn't even get this now. Since used IQ180s sell for the low teen$ privately, the trade-in value looks about right at first glance ... until you realize that the $10k traded-in back is going to go straight on the dealer's shelf with a $28k price tag on, at which point the offer looks derisory ... at best.
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synn

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If I wanted to "invest", I would buy some bonds.
But bonds don't take pictures, so...
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JoeKitchen

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This was an interesting thread over on GetDPI, with the stand out thing of note being the $10k trade-in value for a ~1 year old IQ180. Since P1 have just dropped the price of the IQ180 following the release of the IQ380 (but not by nearly enough to put daylight between the two), I'd imagine you wouldn't even get this now. Since used IQ180s sell for the low teen$ privately, the trade-in value looks about right at first glance ... until you realize that the $10k traded-in back is going to go straight on the dealer's shelf with a $28k price tag on, at which point the offer looks derisory ... at best.

This is how it works with virtually every high priced item.  If you go to Kelly Blue Book and check out the value of your car, you will notice the trade-in value is pretty low, especially compared to the dealer selling value, and the private party selling value is somewhere in between.  

The prices here may be a little more skewed, most likely due to the Oligopoly market place of MFD, but realistically people are more willing to spend more money when purchasing from a dealer than a private party, partly for the service they will get.  

You buy from a private party and the thing does not work correctly, well, what are you suppose to do?  
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buckshot

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You buy from a private party and the thing does not work correctly, well, what are you suppose to do?  

<Off Topic>

No greater way of separating someone from their money than fear that's for sure (and is exactly how most extended warranties are sold to the unsuspecting) - but them's the risks.

Over my whole photographic life I've bought and sold tons of used gear - my P1 backs were both bought privately - other than the locks and latches there are no moving parts, so I considered the risks minimal - and as it turns out these things are pretty much bomb proof. Saved tens of thousands of dollars, and wouldn't hesitate buying used again from a reputable party on LuLa, GetDPI etc.

</Off Topic>
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ciccio

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not now to invest in a medium format as many new cameras are coming out till the end of the year...
ccd are totally outdated
and cmos full frame is coming ....
best.
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PaulSchneider

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not now to invest in a medium format as many new cameras are coming out till the end of the year...
ccd are totally outdated
and cmos full frame is coming ....
best.

Ciccio,

I gather you have a good knowledge of what happens at P1 - you correctly predicted the new body announcement for example - how much longer do you think do we have to wait for the new sensor?

Will it play well with tech cam?

Best,

Paul
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ciccio

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well the new sensor will arrive in january 2016....
we will have to see wich kind of it , if it will be the light technology , so it will be more tech cam friendly....
best.
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ciccio

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sony now owns the total tech of medium format so they will give, first served phase one with the new full frame and then they will release the new ar 9  sony medium format.
at that time , they will be the king .
and now they already owns zillion of licenses of capture one  software !
make your own conclusion....
best.
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gerald.d

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I've just been quoted for a IQ180 to IQ380.

Now bear in mind my IQ180 is quite an early one, was bought privately second hand, and that the 380 will have the 5 year warranty.

13,000 Euros (a little under $15000)

That's not the trade in value of my IQ180.

That's the cost to upgrade.

I was speechless.
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jsiva

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I've just been quoted for a IQ180 to IQ380.

Now bear in mind my IQ180 is quite an early one, was bought privately second hand, and that the 380 will have the 5 year warranty.

13,000 Euros (a little under $15000)

That's not the trade in value of my IQ180.

That's the cost to upgrade.

I was speechless.

That sounds pretty good, means you're IQ180 is valued around 25-28K USD.  Am I missing something?
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gerald.d

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That sounds pretty good, means you're IQ180 is valued around 25-28K USD.  Am I missing something?


I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.
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synn

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That is indeed a great price. Hope you have a lot of fun with the new back!
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jco611

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Congrats. I may do this with my IQ180 later on
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gerald.d

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Congrats. I may do this with my IQ180 later on

These trade-in offers are only available until the end of July.

Don't know what happens after that.
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Paul2660

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That's about right from what I saw here.

15K for a trade in from 180 to 380. You give up your 180 right?

It's around 17,500 to 18k for a 260 to 380 as I recall.

Paul Caldwell
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jco611

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Ok thanks for the info Gerald....

best regards,
J
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eronald

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I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.


You mean with the XF camera thrown in? because otherwise I don't really understand what a 380 does for you which the 180 doesn't?
The new and old back have identical imaging abilities, no?

Edmund
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gerald.d

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You mean with the XF camera thrown in? because otherwise I don't really understand what a 380 does for you which the 180 doesn't?
The new and old back have identical imaging abilities, no?

Edmund

I don't really see that you need to understand why it makes sense for me to do this.
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