Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PaulSchneider on June 02, 2015, 10:44:33 pm

Title: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: PaulSchneider on June 02, 2015, 10:44:33 pm
Guys, we should compile the upgrade prices you were quoted alongside the initial price you paid for your system and how old it is. Just to get the true value math of phase one systems clearly on the table.

I would like to get some more transparency on the "value protection" concept phase once paraded around, so that it becomes clear, what you are buying into when getting a phase system.

I would suggest following format, for example:  

>> IQ180 DF+ in June 2013 for 48k USD, want to "upgrade" to IQ380 XF, got quoted 18k trade-in (just made this up)

Ie, you lost 30k of value in 24 months, i.e. more than 1k per month. In my view a bad investment, one would then be far better off to buy a two-generation old system in the forum and leave that 30k loss to the rich folks or professionals with tax subsidies.

Also I would like to understand how upgrade pricing changes over time, as I am sure there exist patterns. For example, now that the new back is out, it is probably good business sense for Phase to milk the demand and price the product on the top end of what is possible (especially since they are PE-backed, they will price on the high end as much as possible), especially with such affluent enthusiast clientele from China, wo gobble up high-end photographica like there's no tomorrow.

So: How do upgrade prices change over time?


Say, when I get quoted 18k now, might I get a system during a special promotion period for say 25k less? How long does this on average take? Are there patterns? It is also my understanding that Phase closely watches secondary market pricing in order to adjust upgrade trade-in value. Can we estimate their algorithm for this? Ie 3k USD premium over last 12 week forum and eBay sales?

What is your suggestion regarding best strategy to get a phase system and not feel bad that you lost in value a nice car in just two years?

Many thanks for your input!

Best,

P
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on June 03, 2015, 09:20:06 am
Hmm ... the whole deal has been so cloak and dagger for so long it ain’t gonna be easy getting at the numbers. For some reason people just don’t want to say what they paid - maybe out of embarrassment (in case someone pops up and says they got the same deal for much less), maybe because it will help someone else get a better deal, maybe because they’re afraid of a backlash from a dealer who made an under the table offer - who knows. In my experience what you’re gonna get above and beyond the official figures depends a lot on who you go to, how much business they’ve had from you, do you exchange Xmas cards etc.

Anyway, like I said - good luck - anything that empowers buyers is good because there’s no real competition in the MF sector to do it naturally.

Jim
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on June 03, 2015, 09:41:59 am
This (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/53676-should-i-not.html) was an interesting thread over on GetDPI, with the stand out thing of note being the $10k trade-in value for a ~1 year old IQ180. Since P1 have just dropped the price of the IQ180 following the release of the IQ380 (but not by nearly enough to put daylight between the two), I'd imagine you wouldn't even get this now. Since used IQ180s sell for the low teen$ privately, the trade-in value looks about right at first glance ... until you realize that the $10k traded-in back is going to go straight on the dealer's shelf with a $28k price tag on, at which point the offer looks derisory ... at best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 03, 2015, 10:16:48 am
If I wanted to "invest", I would buy some bonds.
But bonds don't take pictures, so...
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JoeKitchen on June 03, 2015, 10:32:14 am
This (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/53676-should-i-not.html) was an interesting thread over on GetDPI, with the stand out thing of note being the $10k trade-in value for a ~1 year old IQ180. Since P1 have just dropped the price of the IQ180 following the release of the IQ380 (but not by nearly enough to put daylight between the two), I'd imagine you wouldn't even get this now. Since used IQ180s sell for the low teen$ privately, the trade-in value looks about right at first glance ... until you realize that the $10k traded-in back is going to go straight on the dealer's shelf with a $28k price tag on, at which point the offer looks derisory ... at best.

This is how it works with virtually every high priced item.  If you go to Kelly Blue Book and check out the value of your car, you will notice the trade-in value is pretty low, especially compared to the dealer selling value, and the private party selling value is somewhere in between.  

The prices here may be a little more skewed, most likely due to the Oligopoly market place of MFD, but realistically people are more willing to spend more money when purchasing from a dealer than a private party, partly for the service they will get.  

You buy from a private party and the thing does not work correctly, well, what are you suppose to do?  
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on June 03, 2015, 04:35:28 pm
You buy from a private party and the thing does not work correctly, well, what are you suppose to do?  

<Off Topic>

No greater way of separating someone from their money than fear that's for sure (and is exactly how most extended warranties are sold to the unsuspecting) - but them's the risks.

Over my whole photographic life I've bought and sold tons of used gear - my P1 backs were both bought privately - other than the locks and latches there are no moving parts, so I considered the risks minimal - and as it turns out these things are pretty much bomb proof. Saved tens of thousands of dollars, and wouldn't hesitate buying used again from a reputable party on LuLa, GetDPI etc.

</Off Topic>
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 11, 2015, 12:40:07 pm
not now to invest in a medium format as many new cameras are coming out till the end of the year...
ccd are totally outdated
and cmos full frame is coming ....
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: PaulSchneider on June 11, 2015, 01:57:37 pm
not now to invest in a medium format as many new cameras are coming out till the end of the year...
ccd are totally outdated
and cmos full frame is coming ....
best.

Ciccio,

I gather you have a good knowledge of what happens at P1 - you correctly predicted the new body announcement for example - how much longer do you think do we have to wait for the new sensor?

Will it play well with tech cam?

Best,

Paul
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 11, 2015, 03:41:09 pm
well the new sensor will arrive in january 2016....
we will have to see wich kind of it , if it will be the light technology , so it will be more tech cam friendly....
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 12, 2015, 02:40:55 am
sony now owns the total tech of medium format so they will give, first served phase one with the new full frame and then they will release the new ar 9  sony medium format.
at that time , they will be the king .
and now they already owns zillion of licenses of capture one  software !
make your own conclusion....
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 08:19:42 am
I've just been quoted for a IQ180 to IQ380.

Now bear in mind my IQ180 is quite an early one, was bought privately second hand, and that the 380 will have the 5 year warranty.

13,000 Euros (a little under $15000)

That's not the trade in value of my IQ180.

That's the cost to upgrade.

I was speechless.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jsiva on June 17, 2015, 12:00:43 pm
I've just been quoted for a IQ180 to IQ380.

Now bear in mind my IQ180 is quite an early one, was bought privately second hand, and that the 380 will have the 5 year warranty.

13,000 Euros (a little under $15000)

That's not the trade in value of my IQ180.

That's the cost to upgrade.

I was speechless.

That sounds pretty good, means you're IQ180 is valued around 25-28K USD.  Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 12:06:34 pm
That sounds pretty good, means you're IQ180 is valued around 25-28K USD.  Am I missing something?


I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 17, 2015, 12:14:19 pm
That is indeed a great price. Hope you have a lot of fun with the new back!
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jco611 on June 17, 2015, 12:21:31 pm
Congrats. I may do this with my IQ180 later on
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 12:24:40 pm
Congrats. I may do this with my IQ180 later on

These trade-in offers are only available until the end of July.

Don't know what happens after that.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on June 17, 2015, 12:47:29 pm
That's about right from what I saw here.

15K for a trade in from 180 to 380. You give up your 180 right?

It's around 17,500 to 18k for a 260 to 380 as I recall.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jco611 on June 17, 2015, 12:49:55 pm
Ok thanks for the info Gerald....

best regards,
J
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 17, 2015, 12:56:24 pm
I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.


You mean with the XF camera thrown in? because otherwise I don't really understand what a 380 does for you which the 180 doesn't?
The new and old back have identical imaging abilities, no?

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 01:08:47 pm
You mean with the XF camera thrown in? because otherwise I don't really understand what a 380 does for you which the 180 doesn't?
The new and old back have identical imaging abilities, no?

Edmund

I don't really see that you need to understand why it makes sense for me to do this.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 17, 2015, 01:20:44 pm
I don't really see that you need to understand why it makes sense for me to do this.

You are absolutely right. :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Theodoros on June 17, 2015, 01:55:13 pm
IMO things are very simple when one chooses photographic equipment... Go the long term path! I don't see people "upgrading" their P3 + 54H combination often... and the IQ of this (10 years old tech) is still far ahead than any other one can buy....  I don't see why one should "upgrade" his IQ 180 either (although I would never buy it in the first place)... why should he?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 17, 2015, 01:59:45 pm
Long exposures for one.
But i am with Gerald in this. He doesn't need to justify his purchase decisions to anyone, let alone a forum full of folks with agendas.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 17, 2015, 02:49:10 pm
Long exposures for one.
But i am with Gerald in this. He doesn't need to justify his purchase decisions to anyone, let alone a forum full of folks with agendas.
15K just for the long exposure at ISO200?  ;D Good luck justifying this purchase to oneself...
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jsiva on June 17, 2015, 02:55:57 pm
I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.


Gerald, I agree it is a no brainer if you are interested in the upgrade.  It also means that if you had to sell it, you're not going to lose much at a net price around 28-30K USD.

The pricing is, however, in line with what we saw on the IQ280 which was around 16.5K USD.  My issue whit hat upgrade was that IQ180-->IQ280 was almost the same as P65+ --> IQ280.  We are also looking at these in USD, and the strong dollar surely helps here as well.

Good luck with the upgrade and looking forward to seeing it on the monster rig you got there :)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 04:43:58 pm
Gerald, I agree it is a no brainer if you are interested in the upgrade.  It also means that if you had to sell it, you're not going to lose much at a net price around 28-30K USD.

The pricing is, however, in line with what we saw on the IQ280 which was around 16.5K USD.  My issue whit hat upgrade was that IQ180-->IQ280 was almost the same as P65+ --> IQ280.  We are also looking at these in USD, and the strong dollar surely helps here as well.

Good luck with the upgrade and looking forward to seeing it on the monster rig you got there :)


16.5K for 180-280 with 5 year warranty? Was that what it was? You sure?

Two things to note though, even if that was the case.

Financially, 180-380 is significantly better. Because the second hand value for private sale of an out of warranty 180 is now certainly under 15k. Not that I look at things this way, but I'd actually be increasing my total assets by doing this upgrade. Substantially so if you take into account the warranty.

Functionally, 180-380 is hugely different than 180-280 was at launch of the 280.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jsiva on June 17, 2015, 05:24:45 pm
16.5K for 180-280 with 5 year warranty? Was that what it was? You sure?

Two things to note though, even if that was the case.

Financially, 180-380 is significantly better. Because the second hand value for private sale of an out of warranty 180 is now certainly under 15k. Not that I look at things this way, but I'd actually be increasing my total assets by doing this upgrade. Substantially so if you take into account the warranty.

Functionally, 180-380 is hugely different than 180-280 was at launch of the 280.

Kind regards,


Gerald.



Agreed, the IQ380 has far more to offer in incremental features vs.the IQ280.  Just the long-exposure and XF integration are enough if needed in your workflow.

The pricing I indicated is correct, but it was with a 1year warranty.  I remember because the price for the IQ260 Achromatic was the same as IQ280, and I upgraded a P65+ to a 260Achro.

From a total value point, you're right.  Even splitting the difference, you're getting about 8-10K in additional value with this trade.  Will you be getting the XF as well, some of the automation can't hurt in your aeriel work.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 05:34:43 pm
Agreed, the IQ380 has far more to offer in incremental features vs.the IQ280.  Just the long-exposure and XF integration are enough if needed in your workflow.

The pricing I indicated is correct, but it was with a 1year warranty.  I remember because the price for the IQ260 Achromatic was the same as IQ280, and I upgraded a P65+ to a 260Achro.

From a total value point, you're right.  Even splitting the difference, you're getting about 8-10K in additional value with this trade.  Will you be getting the XF as well, some of the automation can't hurt in your aeriel work.



The warranty adds significant value. I appreciate of course that now the "value added" warranty is effectively free, in response to pricing challenges from Pentax and Hassleblad, but it does have significant value when you're trading up from a back that is out of warranty.

XF I have little/no personal interest in. We have a DF+ at work that I'll get upgraded (the vibration sensing has some interesting potential use cases for us), but for my personal shooting these days my IQ180 may as well be permanently welded to my CAPcam.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on June 17, 2015, 05:45:36 pm

I read through the announcements, at least I thought I did, what incremental features are you all seeing, besides power sharing between the 280 and 380?  As I recall that's it.  The 380/360/350 all have 2 extra pins to allow for power sharing comm, which also by the way means if your using a tech camera, you need a new plate as the current plates don't have a wide enough hole for all the pins.  I realize the 180/160 will not have all the capabilities, but that's not the posed question.  

The 380 has long exposure capability, built on the same tech as the 260/360.  Unless it's a totally new design, which I have told it's not, then I think you can expect the exact same results as the 260 and for long exposures, the 260 is not a great back, past maybe 10 minutes unless you are working the arctic.  The 250/350 will run rings around it for cleaner longer shots.  Plus the 380 is a denser chip, and may be even more suspect to heat thus noise.  

Also, note that the LE mode for the 380 starts at iso 200.  You really would not want to stack short exposures with this back for a lot reasons, but the mandatory  dark frame is one of the main ones, so then you are looking at single long exposures with the mandatory dark frame of equal exposure, and you are at iso 200, which is not IMO where you want to be for a long single exposure, more like iso 50, especially if you are working in daylight.  Note also the base iso of the 380 is now 50, not 35.  

I looked at the upgrade to the 380, but I can't see a valid reason for me, coming from the 260.  Yes the upgrade is more expensive by around 2K, but even if it was the same, besides the 20MP more pixels, which I don't need, I am having trouble seeing the reasons to move, unless you want the XF and all the communications.  But for me at this point in my career, I couldn't justify that anymore.  If the LE results are similar to the 260, again I can't see any reason for the move, the image quality is just not that good unless you are looking for 2 min to 10 minute shots and don't live in a warm climate, with humidity.  

I may have missed something for sure, as I only glanced over all the specs of the 380, and once I heard it was based on the 2 year old tech of the 260, I was less interested, been there done that, never again.  

Just curious,

Paul
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ndevlin on June 17, 2015, 05:50:39 pm
I couldn't believe that price either.  Fantastic! Though I will make you an even sweeter offer:

Your IQ180 + $5,000 Euro for a slightly newer IQ 180.  

Hard to resist, eh?

 ;D

- N.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 17, 2015, 05:54:19 pm
Hi Paul -

I agree completely.

There seems little point in upgrading from IQ2 to IQ3. Just as there was little point in upgrading from IQ1 to IQ2.

But there are a lot of benefits to be gained by upgrading from IQ1 to IQ3.

If Phase were offering an even better IQ1 to IQ2 deal than they were IQ1 to IQ3, then it would be potentially of interest to me.

But I don't believe such offers are on the table.

Kind regards,

Gerald
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on June 17, 2015, 08:22:29 pm
Paul the IQ260 is a stunning back that should work great with an XF. No real reason to upgrade.

Of course for low light and long exposure nothing beats the IQ150/250/350 on an XF (or tech cam!). Best sensor made for a wide range of light conditions combined with the stunning Schneider/Phase LS lenses.

The IQ260 is still best at iso 50 and with good light. The long exposure capability is nice to have but as you know it does not show the best of what the sensor can do. It is like an added feature which makes the back quite usable for very long exposures (where the IQ140/160/180/280 are not).

I though the IQ140 was discontinued I see its still in the current product line. Awesome back that flies under the radar sorta speak.

I like what Phase has done with the XF and the IQ backs (well, still don't like the pricing obviously). They now have an impressive product line including the lenses. (really wished for filter thread sizes to be kept under 95mm for all lenses though)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 18, 2015, 05:36:00 am
the real truth is how phase can sell all  ccd sensor stock.....
when full frame cmos arrive nobody will buy a ccd back , be aware...
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 18, 2015, 07:22:57 am
the real truth is how phase can sell all  ccd sensor stock.....
when full frame cmos arrive nobody will buy a ccd back , be aware...
best.

Now, my guess is that "full frame" CMOS are a lot more than a few months away. Besides there are many applications when these backs are always used at base ISO with lots of light and the CCDs perform well in those conditions.

Resell value may take a significant hit, but why resell them? A photographer like Synn seems 100% happy about his Leaf back featuring a CCD and it seems unlikely he would be interested in a back featuring a CMOS Sony sensor with colors mostly backed in. I am sure there are many like him.

Anyway, those backs only make sense if either you have a good business or enough money that 40,000 US$ is a drop in the ocean. So resell value is a secundary concern for most buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 18, 2015, 07:28:23 am
agree with you but the new back is a very very small improvement from the iq2 series and when the next iq4 will be released the market will drop for second hand.
like allways in all economy business.
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 08:29:48 am
Now, my guess is that "full frame" CMOS are a lot more than a few months away. Besides there are many applications when these backs are always used at base ISO with lots of light and the CCDs perform well in those conditions.

Resell value may take a significant hit, but why resell them? A photographer like Synn seems 100% happy about his Leaf back featuring a CCD and it seems unlikely he would be interested in a back featuring a CMOS Sony sensor with colors mostly backed in. I am sure there are many like him.

Anyway, those backs only make sense if either you have a good business or enough money that 40,000 US$ is a drop in the ocean. So resell value is a secundary concern for most buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard


CCD is only good for studio shots. CCD has low dynamic range even at base ISO when you compare it against Sony CMOS. The IQ280 is no match against the D800E in terms of dynamic range - no need to mention that it is far behind the IQ250.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/52844-backlight-landscape-photography-realized-say-no-silhouette.html
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 08:37:40 am
CCD is only good for studio shots. CCD has low dynamic range even at base ISO when you compare it against Sony CMOS.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15020813223_cef4ce8698_b.jpg)

I must be a magician because I managed to fit a 70 storey building in a studio! Also, somebody please mail Joe Cornish and tell him that the backs he has been using over the years are apparently not good for his purposes!

I don't care much about the DR of Sony CMOS. I have one of those and my CCD back and I find myself in very few situations where the DR of my Credo is inadequate.

Bernard is very right in saying that I have no interest in the full frame CMOS back. I bought my back for very specific use cases. For everything else, I use a 35mm rig. I couldn't care less if that 35mm rig is supersized into MF proportions.

I do hope though that all the CCD naysayers dump their existing backs into the market and go CMOS hunting when the full frame chip arrives. Great news for those of us who want to upgrade to full frame CCD.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on June 18, 2015, 08:39:32 am
I'm not commenting on whether it's a good thing or not for someone else to do - that's entirely their business - but from my point of view ...

... an IQ180 plus $15k of my hard earned cash and in return I'll get back ...

... pretty much the same IQ as the 180 ...

... is a great deal ...

... but mostly for Phase One.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 09:21:57 am
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15020813223_cef4ce8698_b.jpg)

I must be a magician because I managed to fit a 70 storey building in a studio! Also, somebody please mail Joe Cornish and tell him that the backs he has been using over the years are apparently not good for his purposes!

I don't care much about the DR of Sony CMOS. I have one of those and my CCD back and I find myself in very few situations where the DR of my Credo is inadequate.

Bernard is very right in saying that I have no interest in the full frame CMOS back. I bought my back for very specific use cases. For everything else, I use a 35mm rig. I couldn't care less if that 35mm rig is supersized into MF proportions.

I do hope though that all the CCD naysayers dump their existing backs into the market and go CMOS hunting when the full frame chip arrives. Great news for those of us who want to upgrade to full frame CCD.


Of course by using Ansel Adam's film you can become a legendary. I can't.

Joe Cornish can use IQ280 to capture what Ansel Adam could not easily capture.

Marc Adamus can use Sony CMOS to capture what a CCD cannot easily capture.

Your definition of "good gear" is "being able to follow / copy from the previous legendary". My definition of "good gear" is "being able to challenge what others could not easily capture due to absolute performance limitations".

https://500px.com/photo/102556941/moon-shrine-by-marc-adamus
(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2p83zNjZiUQVdaxYwKRF4kBar6mX7Cmkz_3sOjL-gIoETMLzWq6wIKm__wQJXI9VQ5HjvAploLphjRfbVwwT8gTkexNfK0lFTHLcnTT0TxNN0j7ki9VLw6An4uYJ0VTXNonf6ctNsBdNi9ip2QJQ5vQ1C0A6mIUGlecBp6dDVYkO8/201.JPG?psid=1)

https://500px.com/photo/90744153/dance-of-the-night-by-marc-adamus
(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pE7Z_1nvJkbzEM4aec-PzfqjvU_VjaK81eskgsIWmo-s0oce4-EE5CWOX2Ht3n9e9FJdxuJLAs87MR1TgbpTnfR5X7laWHqpNsXD53nWsMmdWt7oiqwgalWjXP0FpQvXfw1QsiA2GVyvSXdYSLJvPZVlHvAedo2Z1zbQxuzgWgLU/202.JPG?psid=1)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 09:26:43 am
Gear for me is to shoot what I like. I like horses for courses, not one ring to rule them all.

The difference between you and me is that I don't insist that my way is the only way. You however keep shoving down our throats that it's CMOS or bust for the entire photographic world.

You made a specific statement that "CCD is ONLY good in the studio". i showed an example that disproves this and refered to a famous artist who has even more examples to disprove it. One of many. All you can offer in response is a deflection. But such is the art of conversation on internet forums.

Nice pictures, btw. Good to see how an artist with a  vision gets the best out of his gear. Sadly though, I am not seeing YOUR vision, only your complaints.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 09:42:59 am
You can use CCD to shoot what you like. I can use CMOS to shoot what you (or any legendary) cannot shoot with CCD. When I shoot pictures that others cannot shoot, I feel superiority as a gearhead. Gear with new technology can make innovations easier, hence it's easier to make your picture uniques and there would be less competition.

Ansel Adams: avoid shooting against the sun.
CCD: avoid backlight long exposure. has to bracket against the sun.
CMOS: can shoot in low light.
CMOS + fast lens: can shoot Milky Way landscape.
modern CMOS + fast lens: can shoot Aurora landscape.
Sony CMOS + fast lens: can shoot Milky Way landscape with moonrise / moonset in backlight condition.

I am not forcing anyone to shoot in a specific way. I just like the feeling of owning gear with dominating performance.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 09:45:12 am

You made a specific statement that "CCD is ONLY good in the studio". i showed an example that disproves this and refered to a famous artist who has even more examples to disprove it.

Your example is poor. No details in the shadow. Proof of low dynamic range.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 10:09:09 am
When I shoot pictures that others cannot shoot, I feel superiority as a gearhead.

I feel sorry for you. You're in this for all the wrong reasons.
I shoot for my own pleasure. I don't feel the need to feel superior to anyone or anything.

Also, where are YOUR superior images? Don't show me images made by famous artists. I know where to find them.

Quote
Your example is poor. No details in the shadow. Proof of low dynamic range.

My example is proof enough that "CCD is good only in the studio" is a nonsense statement.
Not all images need the shadows pushed to 100 and highlights pulled down to -100. The greatest skill of them all is to practice restraint.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 10:36:17 am
I feel sorry for you. You're in this for all the wrong reasons.
I shoot for my own pleasure. I don't feel the need to feel superior to anyone or anything.

Then why do you care to debate in internet forums? For self satisfaction? Not to prove to others that your gear is not bad?

Also, where are YOUR superior images? Don't show me images made by famous artists. I know where to find them.

I don't have superior images. I only have images with good image quality for measurebator purposes. Sadly the CCD images are of very poor image quality in terms of shadow details, and they had to rely on materials shot by Sony CMOS to score.

(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pi68ibKc_ixFcKsGamx-bekJc7GkWT2IxLYEeWJff4OlKA8ZL7B7Bg1UK8onxLIDlcDW-VjzQswtJb55rDB5NAX9bISSBJI6mdHePgRmF1HWIml4zgHPnF7UXeb6FZszMpcRFBnMDKbVcWUFmcMFAc-HiV8CK2L_mSB7piXUPeAQ/203.JPG?psid=1)

My example is proof enough that "CCD is good only in the studio" is a nonsense statement.
Not all images need the shadows pushed to 100 and highlights pulled down to -100. The greatest skill of them all is to practice restraint.

You still fail to prove the advantage of CCD in your example. A Sony CMOS can do it better. The only advantage of CCD is studio for portrait, where the 80 MP backs still shine in pixel peeping. In other areas the Sony CMOS can do better. When the next fullframe CMOS back is ready and hopefully exceeds the megapixel count of the 80 MP CCD, there might be no crown place left for CCD.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 10:41:03 am
Then why do you care to debate in internet forums?

What can I say? I like giving reality checks to smug as...htrays.

I don't have superior images.

Then why all the whining? If you can't make superior images with your godawesome CMOS gear, maybe you just don't have it in you to make them at all (Before you turn this around, I have never claimed to make superior images, you did).


You still fail to prove the advantage of CCD in your example.

One more time, since you can't comprehend elementary english. I did not post that to show superiority (Again, the only one talking about superiority here is you). I posted it to expose your bullshit argument about CCD cameras being good only in the studio.

Why are you throwing all these strawmen around instead of standing up for that initial statement you made?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 10:48:29 am
Then why all the whining? If you can't make superior images with your godawesome CMOS gear, maybe you just don't have it in you to make them at all (Before you turn this around, I have never claimed to make superior images, you did).
I have posted lots of comparison showing you why CMOS gives superiority in image quality. For the same photographer, a Sony CMOS can offer the best image quality, regardless of aesthetics level of the user, except the case of portrait in studio. If image quality is not important for you, then sell your digital backs and go shooting with an iPhone.

One more time, since you can't comprehend elementary english. I did not post that to show superiority (Again, the only one talking about superiority here is you). I posted it to expose your bullshit argument about CCD cameras being good only in the studio.

Why are you throwing all these strawmen around instead of standing up for that initial statement you made?
If this is the case then there is no need to debate.  8)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 10:54:50 am
I have posted lots of comparison showing you why CMOS gives superiority in image quality. For the same photographer, a Sony CMOS can offer the best image quality, regardless of aesthetics level of the user, except the case of portrait in studio. If image quality is not important for you, then sell your digital backs and go shooting with an iPhone.

"Superior image quality" to you is zero noise and a plastic wrap look. it means other things to other people. Surely, you're not naive enough to think that 6.2 billion people in the world should conform to your definition, do you? Not, me, not unless your first name is Oxford and last name, Dictionary.

If this is the case then there is no need to debate.  8)

Ok, so you do not understand elementary English. Cool.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 11:04:17 am
"Superior image quality" to you is zero noise and a plastic wrap look. it means other things to other people. Surely, you're not naive enough to think that 6.2 billion people in the world should conform to your definition, do you? Not, me, not unless your first name is Oxford and last name, Dictionary.

Ok, so you do not understand elementary English. Cool.

If you think high SNR is "plastic look" and you prefer "film grain" then why not pump the ISO on your CCD back to get "superior image quality"?  ::)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 18, 2015, 11:08:46 am
Pass the popcorn this one will run and run, and to what end?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 11:09:35 am
If you think high SNR is "plastic look" and you prefer "film grain" then why not pump the ISO on your CCD back to get "superior image quality"?  ::)

You sing a hilarious Song.  ;)
I do what I want with my camera to get the images I want. So far, I am very happy with the results I get. Why are you insisting that people like me are "Using it wrong"?

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 11:11:30 am
Pass the popcorn this one will run and run, and to what end?


You can save it. I'm bored of this already.
Trolls like this one are a dime a dozen here. At least the more enjoyable ones consume classy wine and drunk post hilarious posts.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 18, 2015, 12:15:13 pm
Surely, you're not naive enough to think that 6.2 billion people in the world should conform to your definition, do you? Not, me, not unless your first name is Oxford and last name, Dictionary.

Synn,
 
 You have really improved your game!
 Are you lubricating your wit with french red? I find it does help, the Mouton Rotschild is particularly inspirational, but maybe wasted on LL trolls :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 12:35:52 pm
the real truth is how phase can sell all  ccd sensor stock.....
when full frame cmos arrive nobody will buy a ccd back , be aware...
agree with you but the new back is a very very small improvement from the iq2 series and when the next iq4 will be released the market will drop for second hand.
like allways in all economy business.
best.

Yes. It looks like a bargain to upgrade the IQ180 to the IQ380 at this stage, but when the IQ4 fullframe CMOS is announced, the IQ380 will depreciate significantly, asking for another $15K-$20K to upgrade from IQ3 to IQ4. Actually it might be much cheaper to upgrade directly from IQ1 to IQ4, when compared against the total money spent for IQ1->IQ3 + IQ3->IQ4.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 18, 2015, 12:41:42 pm
+10000
ccd is past
cmos is future
phase one try to survive their businnes model....
not sure about the last move...
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 18, 2015, 12:47:11 pm
I had CCD (Phase, Leica) and Cmos (Canon, Nikon), and some of the CMOS had strong texture loss, while the CCD tended to be very good with skin. As an ex-ICC member I do understand what a CFA is, please spare me the lecture.

Whether this means that ALL Cmos are inferior in some way is improbable, but some people may ascribe creative virtues to their backs and we should not mock them: it makes them angry, possibly depriving their children or lovers of  an evening's affection, and also they might for all we know be more sensitive to image auras than the rest of us, ie. they might be right.

Given a choice, I would still prefer to use a random Phase or Hassy with CCD for portraits, and would certainly reach for a Cmos product whenever high ISO is desired. I don't think I would differentiate between the two for landscape.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 01:16:56 pm
I had CCD (Phase, Leica) and Cmos (Canon, Nikon), and some of the CMOS had strong texture loss, while the CCD tended to be very good with skin. As an ex-ICC member I do understand what a CFA is, please spare me the lecture.
I would be curious to see a comparison. Would you care to upload RAW files and briefly illustrate your post-processing steps for a side by side comparison? i.e. same model, same time, same location, same light source, same parameters etc. I have never ever seen a CCD/Canon lover who cared to upload any RAW files as evidence for the superior skin tone claim.
I don't think I would differentiate between the two for landscape.
In the long exposure territory you could certainly differentiate between the two when you do pixel peeping for shadow details. Even the Nikon D5300 can destroy the IQ280.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 03:12:32 pm
You sing a hilarious Song.  ;)
I do what I want with my camera to get the images I want. So far, I am very happy with the results I get. Why are you insisting that people like me are "Using it wrong"?



I'm just trying to follow your logic :) If you cannot make superior images with a certain gear then you have no right to "make whining".

Let's just take a look:

https://500px.com/photo/88251401/shelter-from-the-calm-by-sandeep-murali
(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2proHyC8k408ePqER8k4ULYwgZkrxFlLhzD2VQbJxcNFCYPmQzK8gsUmH6ArgguVMWzQ8DbxXSWYV9vgKT8-ZUf5W54rC-_wV_bnImr2T5VYGvtpuI3WekhCzk_36gDNacvxVVK0pp17daWQZjnFPNUvxdU8NAlI841HYuAmhuwkw/205.JPG?psid=1)

Take a look into the picture, at webpage sized resolution for the mighty CCD - oh well, this is not low SNR, this is film grain :D So romantic!  :o ::)
(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pTuOwvmVjirrm6j9xahLBo2ZIn6N3IV0k6qjnfZzz9efE-qCgRHdEMk00V5C-PRqOVefPX75fECEDLhA13swtqxFnW3yxTY3R6p-S0DLp52FqhFI2A-1FBgcEkDSkOtm6ZuqmgZ63qQvc9Q5hSClvaJBoQBlEKuJOgE3FJy8GtyA/207.JPG?psid=1)

Then scroll to your nice example:
(https://qakqww.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pyAxGiJdG66Y-Pript2ggw5pQ2L4Nab_oC1ZlvdQNur9FeR-VSRc4LYv8x88PJ58R1IAiaWxZ7RqCeGs6kbeH6P9q-0T-0y8eg71IGa5tfNuBe9dkGCl64yl4bN_sHK-3l8MObVwyzbcAuFriYn43OVfIYfoE_nNHE9qomdEP-g8/208.JPG?psid=1)

I am totally overwhelmed by how recognized your images are  ;D You are certainly more qualified to justify gear choice  8) :D
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 03:20:10 pm
And your point is?

You may bust a nut on zero noise, Voidy. I pay more attention to things like composition and feel. And I add noise to my Nikon shots.And I couldn't care less what numbers show up next to my images. I post them for SEO, next to my real name.


Btw, I like how you cut off your name in your pictures to protect your anonymity on the web. Took me 10 seconds to find it. I am not scared to attach my name to my opinions. What's holding you back, Song boy?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 03:23:36 pm
And your point is?

You may bust a nut on zero noise, Voidy. I pay more attention to things like composition and feel. And I add noise to my Nikon shots.And I couldn't care less what numbers show up next to my images. I post them for SEO, next to my real name.


Btw, I like how you cut off your name in your pictures to protect your anonymity on the web. Took me 10 seconds to find it. I am not scared to attach my name to my opinions. What's holding you back, Song boy?

Then why do you shoot at base ISO with your Nikon? Cranking up ISO settings would be easier - saving you time adding noise in post-processing :)

Yeah sure composition and feel is more important. Why not shoot with an iPhone? You are obviously very qualified to teach us what is good composition and feel  :D
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 03:33:43 pm
Why not shoot with an iPhone?

Been there, done that, got the T shirt.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 03:36:21 pm
And I couldn't care less what numbers show up next to my images. I post them for SEO, next to my real name.
Of course you don't care. Not many care either. You are quite right that you take pictures for self-satisfaction  ;D

I'm just curious to see an example of a side by side comparison why a Credo 40 (CCD) could bring you more satisfaction than a Nikon D800 (Sony CMOS). I have posted many comparisons (with public links of RAW files for download). Can you elaborate any improvement in your non-studio pictures? What's the advantages? What I see is mostly disadvantages when compared against a Nikon D810/D800E (without anti-aliasing filter).
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 18, 2015, 03:38:32 pm
Been there, done that, got the T shirt.
So you've reached your conclusion that it is quite sufficient and satisfying to shoot with an iPhone. I see no potential of your CCD backs gaining more resales values over time. Time to sell them all?  ::)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 18, 2015, 03:42:06 pm
I am at the pub and this is good distraction.
There is nothing more entertaining than watching a measurebator trying to convince the world that his way is the only way.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 18, 2015, 04:02:36 pm
Hi,

I am mostly a landscape shooter, using both CMOS (Sony Alpha) and CCD (Phase One P45+). I am always shooting base ISO on the P45+ and always use a tripod. With the Alphas it is mostly the same, base ISO and tripod.

What is obvious to me is that the P45+ gives more resolution, often leading to aliases, but I don't see a lot of difference otherwise. Making A2 prints, I see little difference. That is cannot say which is which, unless looking at well known detail. Colour moiré is often a clue.

Another thing I have noticed is that my images with the P45+ seldom make it to the wall. That said, I like shooting with the P45+ and I do have quite a few nice images, it is just that wall space is limited.

What I often have seen is that a good MF image is often compared with a sloppy made Canon shot. I personally have never used a Canon SLR nor a Nikon digital camera, but my best friend shoots Canon and I am quite happy about his images. I would also say that most of the great images I have seen where shot with either Canon or Nikon. Clearly, this may to have a lot to do with preferences, and of course with the marketshare of foretold cameras.

Overall, I find we have to much obsession with equipment. Images care little about the tools used to make them. A good image is a good image, whatever tool has been used.

Personally, I am pretty sure I will switch to Sony FE (A7rII) in August, mostly because it will give me access to some nice lenses, like the Canon 24/3.5 TS and the Zeiss Batis 1.8/85. That camera can also use my existing lenses. I guess I will hang on to my Hasselblad gear, too, as I like to shoot with it and I don't think it is easy to sell it for a decent price.

Honestly, I would consider switching to a CMOS based MFD as I could use that with my Hasselblad Flexbody, but that wouldn't give me the wide angle I need. An Alpa FPS or a Hartblei HCam may take me there, but at a much greater expense than the Sony, a Metabones adapter and a 24/3.5 TS from Canon.

This was shoot with a P45+:
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Landscapes/Sweden/Spring/i-Xmh8twV/2/X3/20150305-CF046106-2-X3.jpg)

This was Sony Alpha:
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Dolomites2014/i-ScF3V3K/0/XL/20140603-_DSC4026-XL.jpg)

This was P45+:
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Dolomites2014/i-hWXbrn6/0/XL/20140612-CF045214-XL.jpg)

And this was Sony SLT 99:
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Dolomites2014/i-35h2X56/1/X3/20140612-_DSC4611-X3.jpg)

Best regards
Erik


I had CCD (Phase, Leica) and Cmos (Canon, Nikon), and some of the CMOS had strong texture loss, while the CCD tended to be very good with skin. As an ex-ICC member I do understand what a CFA is, please spare me the lecture.

Whether this means that ALL Cmos are inferior in some way is improbable, but some people may ascribe creative virtues to their backs and we should not mock them: it makes them angry, possibly depriving their children or lovers of  an evening's affection, and also they might for all we know be more sensitive to image auras than the rest of us, ie. they might be right.

Given a choice, I would still prefer to use a random Phase or Hassy with CCD for portraits, and would certainly reach for a Cmos product whenever high ISO is desired. I don't think I would differentiate between the two for landscape.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 18, 2015, 04:41:35 pm
I had plans to go down the pub but this is far more entertaining.
Yep, finished the popcorn, still watching.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jco611 on June 18, 2015, 07:11:39 pm
and thread ruined by the ccd / cmos talk....
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 18, 2015, 08:13:30 pm
Yep, finished the popcorn, still watching.


Fingers so greasy you cannot participate?

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 18, 2015, 09:51:00 pm
Well that escalated quickly.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: sgilbert on June 18, 2015, 10:34:17 pm
"Well that escalated quickly."

About what's expected. 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on June 18, 2015, 11:22:58 pm
"Well that escalated quickly."

About what's expected. 

Yep, Same folks hammering in the same arguments to the same people.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 19, 2015, 02:50:51 am
Fingers so greasy you cannot participate?
Edmund

Pointless, well actually no there are two points: CCD pleases some shooters mainly for reasons that are subjective which therefore, by definition, are largely unprovable to a sceptic, CMOS pleases the other group mainly for technical reasons that can be proved but also because those attributes also suit the style or look they wish to produce that pleases them. They are irreconcilable differences.
I suspect if they had the WWW the pictorialism movement and the modernism movement the arguments wouldd be similar. I can misquote A Fassbender: "There is no solution in trying to eradicate CCD sensors for one would then have to destroy idealism, sentiment and all sense of art and beauty. There will always be CCD sensors." The latter may in time however not be true.

CCD sensors replaces pictorialism, but then you knew that.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 03:41:35 am
In between all this, my original point as always, got lost.

I have no problem with CMOS sensors or people who shoot with them. I use one when the situation calls for it. However, I derive a lot more pleasure working with my CCD camera, which is a result of a lot of quantifiable and iquantifiable factors that I am in no compulsion to justify to anyone but myself.

I do have a problem with halfwit nincompoops that jump up and down insisting that their perspective is the only valid one and everyone else are dumbasses for sticking to their convictions.

Welcome to my ignore list, Mr. Yunli Song from Oxford. You've earned it.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: barihunk on June 19, 2015, 04:16:24 am
In between all this, my original point as always, got lost.

Any point you try to make, while at the same time spouting off personal attacks and doxing your intended target, SCREAMS of hypocrisy.

You are no better than the average schoolyard bully.  #stopbullying

Shame on you.

Shame.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 04:30:08 am
Since you used a hashtag, I'll curl up in a corner and feel all the shame in the world.
Thanks for enlightening me.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 19, 2015, 04:37:00 am

CCD sensors replaces pictorialism, but then you knew that.



Well, now I do :)
Interesting comment.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 19, 2015, 05:04:51 am
Since you used a hashtag, I'll curl up in a corner and feel all the shame in the world.
Thanks for enlightening me.

Synn, maybe the guy really does have delicate sensibilities, and you did get carried away a bit, and could apologise - we'll all think of you as more of a gentleman if you do.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 05:08:19 am
Synn, maybe the guy really does have delicate sensibilities, and you did get carried away a bit, and could apologise - we'll all think of you as more of a gentleman if you do.

Edmund

Good point, I do apologize to barihunk if his sensibilities were offended.
 I couldn't care less if voidshatter cried to sleep reading my posts though, as his agenda is quite clear to me and there's nothing productive there.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 19, 2015, 05:33:43 am
Hi,

Just to say, Voidshatter has actually shared a lot of good stuff, like raw images from different cameras including the IQ-250. That is more service than most posters on these forums have done. He also is a person who actually can listen and even admit mistakes.

Obviously, "Void" doesn't share your opinion on things, he has made his experiments and drawn his conclusions. No reason to be uncivilised about…

I think the original subject of this thread was "Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1". On that I would say that there are some alternatives to Phase One, depending on needs. Phase One offers probably the nicest set of options but at a very high cost. For some customers Phase One pricing goes with the territory, some find it less customer friendly.

As an example, if you have a value protection plan you may assume that you can switch from say an IQ-260 to an IQ-250 at a nominal cost, if that back suits your needs. But my understanding is that this is not the case as switching from IQ-260 to IQ-250 is seen as a cross-grade and not an upgrade. Things like that should be more clear.

Best regards
Erik

Good point, I do apologize to barihunk if his sensibilities were offended.
 I couldn't care less if voidshatter cried to sleep reading my posts though, as his agenda is quite clear to me and there's nothing productive there.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 05:52:06 am

 He also is a person who actually can listen and even admit mistakes.



Not something I have seen.

"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio".

This is the original statement he made that I have a problem with and I will continue to have a problem with.
Sweeping statements that don't hold true for everyone are asinine and those who make them should have the courtesy to present them as personal opinions than facts. Not to mention the continuous attempts at mockery at anyone who dares to think otherwise.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 19, 2015, 06:52:46 am
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio".

(http://08.ae/imgs/GetDPI/CF017052.jpg)

Can we please move on now?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 07:30:02 am
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio".

(http://08.ae/imgs/GetDPI/CF017052.jpg)

Can we please move on now?
I would like to see raw files for comparison between this and Sony A7R-II + Canon 11-24mm combo, if possible.

Looking forward to see the advantages of CCD outside studio.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: jsiva on June 19, 2015, 07:46:21 am
I would like to see raw files for comparison between this and Sony A7R-II + Canon 11-24mm combo, if possible.

Looking forward to see the advantages of CCD outside studio.

When you find an 80MP CMOS sensor that I can put on the back of a tech cam with at least 54x40mm surface area, let me know. 

Otherwise not sure what you point is here other tanking another thread along with your pals.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 19, 2015, 07:49:38 am
I would like to see raw files for comparison between this and Sony A7R-II + Canon 11-24mm combo, if possible.

Looking forward to see the advantages of CCD outside studio.

Such a comparison would be impossible, because that shot can't be taken with the combination you suggest.

Give it a rest voidshatter. You are ruining this forum for everyone.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 19, 2015, 08:01:30 am
Not something I have seen.

Well, I have seen. The reason you may have missed that may be that your argumentation may bee poor or lacking…

Quote
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio".

This is the original statement he made that I have a problem with and I will continue to have a problem with.
Sweeping statements that don't hold true for everyone are asinine and those who make them should have the courtesy to present them as personal opinions than facts. Not to mention the continuous attempts at mockery at anyone who dares to think otherwise.

I can absolutely agree that the "CCD is useless for anything other than in studio" is quite a bit sweeping just like all your postings favouring CCDs over CMOS. BTW, both are electron storing devices. You seem to think that electrons stored in CCD capacitors are of better colour than electrons stored in CMOS capacitors.

Actually, I have seen great images made by CCD, CMOS, small format, medium format and even film. The photographer and the subject matters quite a lot more than gear.

Now, "Void" seems to have a foible for long exposures with high scene illumination range. That is a weak point of CCDs. Personally I don't do that kind of photography and I feel that CCD works fine for me. On the other hand, CMOS has less readout noise and less problems with heat building up. It is a newer and better technology replacing an older one. Development resources are of course flowing to the new technology so the possibility of the older technology catching up is quite remote.

The very nice thing with "Void" is that he actually shares raw images. I had some communication with him, as he has experience with several MF backs I don't have access to and he has been most helpful.

Best regards
Erik


Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JohnnyR on June 19, 2015, 08:04:02 am
Not something I have seen.

"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio".

This is the original statement he made that I have a problem with and I will continue to have a problem with.
Sweeping statements that don't hold true for everyone are asinine and those who make them should have the courtesy to present them as personal opinions than facts. Not to mention the continuous attempts at mockery at anyone who dares to think otherwise.



You are actually having problem with modern technology(Sony CMOS) which depreciates your current gear(CCD).
Void has given enough evidence to show us this kind of improvement and he did 'downgrade' his iq260 to iq250 for better landscape image quality.And i admire that.
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio" compared with CMOS ,that's only for now. If the full frame cmos sensor comes , it will be completely useless.


 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on June 19, 2015, 08:06:59 am
+ 100000
future is cmos no matter what the owners of ccd thinks...
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 08:08:08 am
Such a comparison would be impossible, because that shot can't be taken with the combination you suggest.

Give it a rest voidshatter. You are ruining this forum for everyone.
I'd be curious to see why impossible.  8)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: tjv on June 19, 2015, 08:16:17 am
This thread is absolutely absurd! There are many ignorant and narrow minded people on the internet and it seems many of them now choose to congregate on LuLa. Mr. Song, I suggest you take your narrow minded agenda elsewhere.

You are actually having problem with modern technology(Sony CMOS) which depreciates your current gear(CCD).
Void has given enough evidence to show us this kind of improvement and he did 'downgrade' his iq260 to iq250 for better landscape image quality.And i admire that.
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio" compared with CMOS ,that's only for now. If the full frame cmos sensor comes , it will be completely useless.


 

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JohnnyR on June 19, 2015, 08:19:30 am
This thread is absolutely absurd! There are many ignorant and narrow minded people on the internet and it seems many of them now choose to congregate on LuLa. Mr. Song, I suggest you take your narrow minded agenda elsewhere.


Embracing the future = ignorant and narrow minded?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 08:42:47 am
You are actually having problem with modern technology(Sony CMOS) which depreciates your current gear(CCD).
Void has given enough evidence to show us this kind of improvement and he did 'downgrade' his iq260 to iq250 for better landscape image quality.And i admire that.
"CCD is useless for anything other than in studio" compared with CMOS ,that's only for now. If the full frame cmos sensor comes , it will be completely useless.


 


Read gooder (sic).
I have both CCD and CMOS gear and I favor the CCD gear for CERTAIN kinds of applications. Ihave stated this several times over and over.
For those CERTAIN kinds of applications, my concern is not zero noise or DR assessment or whatnot. Mr. Song (and dance) ONLY focuses on those areas and in a bigoted fashion, states that ANYONE who uses CCD for ANYTHING other than studio use is a dumbass.


I beg to differ and so do many practicing photographers across genres. For reasons far removed from white knighting for deprecated technology or whatever you think I'm up to.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 08:44:34 am
This thread is absolutely absurd! There are many ignorant and narrow minded people on the internet and it seems many of them now choose to congregate on LuLa. Mr. Song, I suggest you take your narrow minded agenda elsewhere.


He was elsewhere, got kicked out for this, IIRC.
Unfortunately, moderation here is practically non existant.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 08:45:42 am

The very nice thing with "Void" is that he actually shares raw images.





My RAW files are official samples on the Mamiyaleaf site.
Can't give back to the society more than that.

Quote
Now, "Void" seems to have a foible for long exposures with high scene illumination range. That is a weak point of CCDs.

Agreed, but that is not what he is saying. "Good only in the studio" insinuates that they are useless for many other styles of shooting that does not involve long exposures. Genres in which artists more accomplished than Mr. Song have created (And are still creating) exceptional images with CCD backs.

Short version: It'S fine if some of y'all hate CCDs. But dont impose that opinion on the rest of us.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on June 19, 2015, 09:02:35 am
I'd be curious to see why impossible.  8)
It should be obvious from the image.

I'm outta here.

Will return when people are no longer allowed to get away with destroying threads.

I thought contributing to this thread with a real life quote for an upgrade might be of interest, and benefit to the forum.

Clearly this isn't the case.

Au revoir LuLa.

It's a shame that those who run the site, having clearly recently made significant investments in it, allow what was once its arguably most useful aspect to turn into this.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FMueller on June 19, 2015, 09:05:54 am
My CCD back performs exactly the same as the day it was new. I also have cameras with CMOS sensors. They do nicely as well.

I am really impressed with the long exposure capability of the Sony large sensor chips, or at least what others post and report.

As Mike Johnston, of http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html has suggested, we have reached "the point of sufficiency" and I have identified the weakest link in my system----me.

The best thing I can do to improve my results is take more photographs and print them. I print really well on a printer that is not state of the art (Epson 3800) and plunked down the $800 for ImagePrint thereby removing another excuse (I abandoned the i1 profiler because it just took too much damned time away from making photographs) And for reasons unbeknownst to me, that printer has not clogged even once during its entire lifetime and it was purchased shortly after released.

I'll finish off by saying, I truly benefit from all the pixel peeping and hairsplitting accomplished by many here and I have learned plenty, thank you. Seriously.

I have also learned plenty from the working pro's insights here even though their input here is far too seldom, and from them I have learned I need to use what I have.



Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 09:07:14 am
This thread is absolutely absurd! There are many ignorant and narrow minded people on the internet and it seems many of them now choose to congregate on LuLa. Mr. Song, I suggest you take your narrow minded agenda elsewhere.

Narrow-minded? I admit the advantages of CCD for portrait in studio (pixel count). I demand evidence of advantages of CCD outside studio, by means of RAW files for comparison. Internet forum is a free place to talk, unless the administrator has certain collaboration with manufacturer / retailer to control the consensus. I'm eager to learn any mistakes I make. On the other hand, I don't like subjective imaginations to damage the community.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 09:09:35 am
My RAW files are official samples on the Mamiyaleaf site.
Can't give back to the society more than that.

Agreed, but that is not what he is saying. "Good only in the studio" insinuates that they are useless for many other styles of shooting that does not involve long exposures. Genres in which artists more accomplished than Mr. Song have created (And are still creating) exceptional images with CCD backs.

Short version: It'S fine if some of y'all hate CCDs. But dont impose that opinion on the rest of us.

What I'd like to see is a direct comparison. Where are your raw files shot by a Sony CMOS under the same condition?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 09:16:31 am
CCD

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/11618187855_dfff114f08_h.jpg)

CMOS

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/11618149655_3fcdf4312b_h.jpg)


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1477572_10151954839039209_338595565_n.jpg?oh=78880e22b1ea2b4b1c3612092a174b30&oe=55EA09BC)

Same place, same time, very similar focal lengths, equivalent aperture and similar shutter speed, same post processing software and the same spot chosen for white balancing.

I couldn't care less what the noise is like when my nose is against the monitor or how many stops of DR is there. I know how to work around those.
 I do care how the CMOS file utterly butchers all the texture and tonal variations in the greens and colors bleeding into each other like junkies sharing a needle. This is something that can't be fixed.
That TO ME is a more important aspect regarding image making.

Anyone wanting RAW files, paypal me USD 500. Why? Because they are my files and I can do whatever the hell I want with them.
If you have a different opinion, feel free to shoot your own comparison test.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: sgilbert on June 19, 2015, 09:33:15 am
Regarding Gerald's point:  it seems that what happens here too often is that whatever the original focus of a thread, it devolves into the same pissing match.  

While it's easy to see which posters contribute most to this, those who try to reason with them share the blame.  

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 09:48:10 am
CCD

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/11618187855_dfff114f08_h.jpg)

CMOS

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/11618149655_3fcdf4312b_h.jpg)


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1477572_10151954839039209_338595565_n.jpg?oh=78880e22b1ea2b4b1c3612092a174b30&oe=55EA09BC)

Same place, same time, very similar focal lengths, equivalent aperture and similar shutter speed, same post processing software and the same spot chosen for white balancing.

I couldn't care less what the noise is like when my nose is against the monitor or how many stops of DR is there. I know how to work around those.
 I do care how the CMOS file utterly butchers all the texture and tonal variations in the greens and colors bleeding into each other like junkies sharing a needle. This is something that can't be fixed.
That TO ME is a more important aspect regarding image making.

Anyone wanting RAW files, paypal me USD 500. Why? Because they are my files and I can do whatever the hell I want with them.
If you have a different opinion, feel free to shoot your own comparison test.

I guess there is no specific reason why you hide the raw files. You are just not happy to share, instead of being afraid of sharing.  :)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 19, 2015, 10:08:05 am
Hi Synn,

We have done our test and arrived at different results. Contrary to your approach we have shared the raw images.

Best regards
Erik



CCD

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/11618187855_dfff114f08_h.jpg)

CMOS

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/11618149655_3fcdf4312b_h.jpg)


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1477572_10151954839039209_338595565_n.jpg?oh=78880e22b1ea2b4b1c3612092a174b30&oe=55EA09BC)

Same place, same time, very similar focal lengths, equivalent aperture and similar shutter speed, same post processing software and the same spot chosen for white balancing.

I couldn't care less what the noise is like when my nose is against the monitor or how many stops of DR is there. I know how to work around those.
 I do care how the CMOS file utterly butchers all the texture and tonal variations in the greens and colors bleeding into each other like junkies sharing a needle. This is something that can't be fixed.
That TO ME is a more important aspect regarding image making.

Anyone wanting RAW files, paypal me USD 500. Why? Because they are my files and I can do whatever the hell I want with them.
If you have a different opinion, feel free to shoot your own comparison test.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 10:14:38 am
Genres in which artists more accomplished than Mr. Song have created (And are still creating) exceptional images with CCD backs.

Short version: It'S fine if some of y'all hate CCDs. But dont impose that opinion on the rest of us.

If you shoot with the same gear as the legendary photographers then you live in their shadow (with low dynamic range  ;D) and there is less chance for you to make innovations and improve. With better gear you then gain the power and flexibility to try out different styles of photography, meaning that you could probably capture what they could not.

I'm not forcing anyone to hate CCD. I'm just expressing my doubt that CCD would bring any obvious advantage outside studio. Chances are that if you can shoot a scene with low dynamic range then such scene probably has been photographed many times already by previous people because it is not challenging. If you bracket with CCD then I could also stitch with CMOS. If you live with the DR of CCD then noise could probably destroy resolution to a degree below CMOS.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on June 19, 2015, 10:21:59 am
To the OP, you might consider locking this thread, as it's gone way beyond the scope of your question i.e. what are people paying for upgrades.  

As  IQ260 owner, I was interested in potentially upgrading to the 380, mainly based on the fact that there is all new tech in this back.  I have heard several times from various sources that the 380 is not just a 260 on steroids.  That does interest me for sure.  

The price in US dollars to move for me is $17.595.00 and that doesn't include a XF camera or a discounted XF camera.

NET to me that's a bit too much of a delta.  Historically Phase DOES NOT lower prices so I guess I will wait out the next refresh, which I assume is not till late 2016.  

This post has turned from that subject to a much more different one, CCD vs CMOS, and that's one that no two people tend to agree on.  Personally I hate to see folks get so heated up over this.  It's simple, it either works for you or it doesn't.   No point to pushing opinions and or trying to make one person's opinion look wrong as there is no RIGHT answer to this.  Just because a full frame CMOS is coming, does not mean that photographers will just stop buying CCD tech, I don't see that as the cost to get to a full frame 645 CMOS will not be cheap.  At least in an offering from Phase One.  Someone should start a new post CCD vs CMOS and let folks share opinions, images etc.

Sincerely

Paul Caldwell

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: MTGFender on June 19, 2015, 10:26:57 am
I am very interested in the original topic "Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1".
Would you mind going back to the original topic? It is very useful to me.
If someone want to continue with the battle, CMOS vs CCD, would you mind opening the new discussion? I read about this too many times. I was so excited in the beginning (several months ago) and really admired the person who did the test but after hearing a hundred times, I've been so sick to hear about it.
Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 10:34:30 am
Paul, looking forward to see a darkframe raw file of the IQ380 LE if you are going to do a test drive - you know what I mean  ;D
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 11:38:59 am
I am very interested in the original topic "Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1".
Would you mind going back to the original topic? It is very useful to me.
If someone want to continue with the battle, CMOS vs CCD, would you mind opening the new discussion? I read about this too many times. I was so excited in the beginning (several months ago) and really admired the person who did the test but after hearing a hundred times, I've been so sick to hear about it.
Thank you in advance.
Unfortunately depreciation is strongly related to technology advancement. This is especially true for semi-conductors. If the purpose of pixel peeping is defeated then how much justification is left?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 01:07:12 pm
If you, or Synn, or Erik, or Uncle Tom Cobley, judge images by looking at raw files at 100% on screen in Photoshop then I'd suggest you're looking at the wrong thing.

I do, when I am retouching. Not the same thing as measurebating.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on June 19, 2015, 01:15:17 pm
My apologies, Kieth. Wrong interpretation.
Yes, I am with you on this. I prefer to judge my images when they are on a wall.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 19, 2015, 02:46:17 pm
Hi Keith,

Yes, I agree. I am even considering to write an article about it.

The reason is really that images have some intended purpose, and actual pixels viewing is seldom one of those purposes. The way I see it, we either print an image or view it as a small image on screen. By definition a screen image is small, even 4K is just 8 MP or even less if aspect ratios don't match.

With prints it is a bit different. Printing large enough we can use every bit of information in a large file. But even with large prints it will be low to medium frequency detail that dominates our visual impression. So, pixel peeping and sharpening for actual pixels may ignore the part of the image that dominates our visual impression. So, we actually need to optimise for print.

Colour can be judged pretty well on screen, however. But, showing small JPEGs say very little about the source of the image. Some posters here, me included, feel that colour is much dependent on colour profiles. CFGA (colour filter grid array) differences may play a lesser roll than colour profiles.

A couple of things worth mentioning:

- Michael Ezra, a very fine art photographer, did look at "Synn's" raw images of the night scenery shots and could not reproduce the Aptus images with the Nikon shots using any of his profiles. That may speak for those images having spectral separation that Nikon's CFGA cannot separate. But, to learn anything we need to se the raw image.

- "Synn" has produced a comparison of his own, where he has presented three different images shot with different cameras. It was kind of a blind test, hardly one reader identified the involved cameras correctly.

- Another point is that Tim Parkin is known to have issues with colour rendition with the P45+ and enjoys the colour rendition of the Sonya Alpha 900. I have both cameras and I have tried to look into that issue. What I have seen is that the issue is a bit more complex. Tim also told me that Joe Cornish (a friend of his and a well know photographer)  feels that the P45+ is quite problematic with colour and needs a lot of fine tuning in PS to fix. But, I also have the impression that Joe Cornish is more happy about the Dalsa based IQ-180 (?) he uses now.

From some recent work and discussion by Anders Torger, I got the impression that colour profiles may matter a lot more than we may think.

What I also would say is that white balance plays a great role.

Personally, I shoot both P45+ and Sony Alpha 99. In general I find the Sony more dead on accurate. I could say, with the Alpha 99 it is more like marksmanship while the P45+ is more like archery. I like shooting both ways. Obviously, the P45+ delivers more pixels, that is an advantage when printing large.

On my last exhibition, not a single P45+ image has made it to the wall. I don't know why, but they seem to be a bit boring or dull.

Best regards
Erik




If you, or Synn, or Erik, or Uncle Tom Cobley, judge images by looking at raw files at 100% on screen in Photoshop then I'd suggest you're looking at the wrong thing.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 06:24:15 pm
If you, or Synn, or Erik, or Uncle Tom Cobley, judge images by looking at raw files at 100% on screen in Photoshop then I'd suggest you're looking at the wrong thing.

So perhaps a smartphone picture could outperform a CCD back under the condition of not looking at raw files at 100% on screen in Photoshop?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gdh on June 19, 2015, 07:55:08 pm
No, not at all.  I thought so at first, but listen to the LULA interview with the P1 tech guy--the IQ380 actually gives up to 60 minutes of exposure time with little noise--comparable to the 260, but with 80MP.

For me that was a deciding factor as I need the resolution but also need night and long exposures. The interview confirmed what P1 was saying re up to 1  hour exposure capability--it's just not the timer, it's the ability to do so with little noise.

If there are any other P1 techs on board, correct me if I'm wrong or confirm your understanding.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 08:08:02 pm
First of all, here we have someone who doesn't care about SNR - he regards high SNR as "plastic look".

Secondly, it is probably true that Phase One has implemented some advanced alien tech to beat IQ260 @ ISO140 with IQ380 @ ISO200 in terms of SNR.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on June 19, 2015, 10:01:34 pm
No, not at all.  I thought so at first, but listen to the LULA interview with the P1 tech guy--the IQ380 actually gives up to 60 minutes of exposure time with little noise--comparable to the 260, but with 80MP.

For me that was a deciding factor as I need the resolution but also need night and long exposures. The interview confirmed what P1 was saying re up to 1  hour exposure capability--it's just not the timer, it's the ability to do so with little noise.

If there are any other P1 techs on board, correct me if I'm wrong or confirm your understanding.

I own a 260. It really can't go any longer than 15 minutes unless you are working in winter conditions. The noise is excessive and so are the stuck pixels.  The dark frame really won't get it all.  The resulting files are

I hope the 380 does better but I can't see it getting an hour. Also the LE. Mode starts at ISO 200 which is pretty high. I have been told the 380 is using similar tech of the 260. I know I was pretty disappointed by what the 260 delivered with long exposures. The P45+ will totally blow the 260 away in 30 minutes or longer.


Maybe the 380 has all new tech and can deliver what the 260 did not. But you still have to get around the heat the back generates. 

Paul
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 19, 2015, 11:10:33 pm
Listening to all this, the IQ280 to IQ350 upgrade should cost max 5,000 US$ IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on June 19, 2015, 11:18:40 pm
Listening to all this, the IQ280 to IQ350 upgrade should cost max 5,000 US$ IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard


This is a "downgrade", and unless you have a special offer from a dealer, it would cost you a lot more than $5000. This is Phase One's ridiculous policy.

Back in Nov 2014 a dealer in the UK offered me (currency in us-dollars) $18000 trade-in value of a used IQ260 (/w VAW) for a new IQ250 (so that I would need to pay $15000 extra for the swap). I did not take that ridiculous offer. At about the same time a dealer in China offered me a free swap from a used IQ260 towards a new Credo 50 (with no additional charges). I did not take that offer either. In the end I managed to get my IQ250 with a good offer (thanks to the help from a very good dealer).

I personally know a friend who traded his used Credo 80 for a used Credo 50 (with no additional cash). I did not play the missionary role. He made his decision before I even knew him. There's also another user who sold his Credo 80 after he purchased a Credo 50. He discovered the advantages of Sony CMOS independently (not my agenda).

In my group of Alpa users, the most popular digital back there is indeed Credo 50. They laugh at my IQ250 as it would depreciate more than the Credo 50.

Phase One's pricing is ridiculous and the trade-in offers are indeed more expensive than taking the depreciation of Credo digital backs when you sell as second hand for next generation upgrade.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 20, 2015, 02:01:48 am
Hi,

Jeff Schewe has made that test and published in several of his books. On pages 30-33 of his book "Real World Image Sharpening" second edition he demonstrates that small prints from different cameras, including the iPhone (4s?) and P65+ are virtually indistinguishable. He also repeats this in his later book "The Digital Negative" in Figure 1.27 comparing iPhone 4 with IQ-180. I would suggest that these exemples illustrate that iPhone images can be perfectly usable for small prints.

That is under good light. DR is more limited on the iPhone, due to the small sensor area. Downscaling a large sensor image improves DR, so in this area the larger sensors win hands down. If the luminance range of the subject fits within the DR of the iPhone, the additional DR may matter little.

Personally, I don't shoot phone cams and not really compacts either, but I would say there is no reason to be ignorant about their capabilities. "F8 and being there" has been a great recipe for memorable images and cell phones are very good at the "being there" factor.

Best regards
Erik



So perhaps a smartphone picture could outperform a CCD back under the condition of not looking at raw files at 100% on screen in Photoshop?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Schewe on June 20, 2015, 04:17:01 am
Jeff Schewe has made that test and published in several of his books.

Correct, ignoring the impact of lenses (which can be considerable) and lighting (I did a real good job of matching lighting between the iPhone 5S and IQ 180) then the difference between an 8MP and 80MP capture is only shown to be useful when output size is factored into the equation.

It really all depends on the manner of capture (and quality of lighting). Once you pass the threshold of usable resolution (equating to print resolution) all other factors ignored, there is no difference between an 8MP and 80MP capture if the output is small enough.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: haplo602 on June 20, 2015, 08:12:29 am
The beginning of the thread was quite interesting, then it turned around ...

Anyway, I'll take any donation in the form of a useless CCD back. I don't care about mount or brand. I just need something for "polaroids".
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on June 20, 2015, 09:25:58 am
The beginning of the thread was quite interesting, then it turned around ...

Anyway, I'll take any donation in the form of a useless CCD back. I don't care about mount or brand. I just need something for "polaroids".

Me too. But of course I would prefer an 80Mp.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: haplo602 on June 20, 2015, 12:02:37 pm
Me too. But of course I would prefer an 80Mp.

Edmund

Oh, even an old Valeo 22 will do for me ... :-)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FMueller on June 20, 2015, 11:11:33 pm
Then you wait until December. Just a hunch...

These trade-in offers are only available until the end of July.

Don't know what happens after that.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Neil Williams on June 23, 2015, 05:58:52 pm
Are you guys seeing the same adsorbent depreciation prices of Leica camera gear recently?

I decided to trade in my Leica M gear for a new Leica S and pretty much took a 60% hit on my Leica gear that is less than 2 years old...............I haven't made the deal yet but when I look back to last month when I sold my wife's Sony a7r to help finance her new Sony a7ii that puppy also took a 60% depreciation hit and that was over a 6 month period................maybe it's just me, maybe I am just sh}te at negotiating when it comes to selling camera gear :) :) Ahh well so be it, but wondered if anyone else has experienced the same sh{t?

 

The only thing I can think of apart from my previous statement is that now that Leica is flooding the market with new brands i.e. "Q's" "T's" "SE's" and the like maybe that has something to do with it................hay what the hell do I know............................... I am just an old Roughneck
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ddolde on July 16, 2015, 04:31:19 pm
Interesting how none of the ever present sales crew have chimed in on this subject.  Guess they are afraid of getting their reputations sullied
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on July 16, 2015, 08:42:03 pm
Are you guys seeing the same adsorbent depreciation prices of Leica camera gear recently?

I decided to trade in my Leica M gear for a new Leica S and pretty much took a 60% hit on my Leica gear that is less than 2 years old...............I haven't made the deal yet but when I look back to last month when I sold my wife's Sony a7r to help finance her new Sony a7ii that puppy also took a 60% depreciation hit and that was over a 6 month period................maybe it's just me, maybe I am just sh}te at negotiating when it comes to selling camera gear :) :) Ahh well so be it, but wondered if anyone else has experienced the same sh{t?

 

The only thing I can think of apart from my previous statement is that now that Leica is flooding the market with new brands i.e. "Q's" "T's" "SE's" and the like maybe that has something to do with it................hay what the hell do I know............................... I am just an old Roughneck


Camera gear are horrible financial instruments unless you make money using them for what they were designed to do, make images, or rent them to other people who do.

Even so Leica lenses, if purchased used, can be sold basically for what you paid. They hold their value well. If purchased new you do take a hit but not 60%. With Digital bodies it varies but they sell well also (on the private market).
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JV on July 16, 2015, 08:52:16 pm
Are you guys seeing the same adsorbent depreciation prices of Leica camera gear recently?

I decided to trade in my Leica M gear for a new Leica S and pretty much took a 60% hit on my Leica gear that is less than 2 years old...............I haven't made the deal yet but when I look back to last month when I sold my wife's Sony a7r to help finance her new Sony a7ii that puppy also took a 60% depreciation hit and that was over a 6 month period................maybe it's just me, maybe I am just sh}te at negotiating when it comes to selling camera gear :) :) Ahh well so be it, but wondered if anyone else has experienced the same sh{t?

 

The only thing I can think of apart from my previous statement is that now that Leica is flooding the market with new brands i.e. "Q's" "T's" "SE's" and the like maybe that has something to do with it................hay what the hell do I know............................... I am just an old Roughneck

A dealer is never going to pay what you get on the private market...   I would guess you perhaps got 60-70% of the trending price on eBay.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Neil Williams on July 16, 2015, 09:03:03 pm
I am very happy with the deal that I got.
I am now using a new Leica S system that cost me nothing in terms of laying out more cash. I am now using a way superior camera than the Leica M gear that I was finding impossible to use due to my inability to nail focus with the rangefinder system..........all in all a win win situation
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 18, 2015, 02:13:03 am
Such a good informative thread had turned into a crap debate between the CCD VS CMOS debate. I mean com'n Full Frame CMOS is still non-existent, I can't take a picture with it I am sorry. Yeah CMOS has better high iso performance but when you desire the best quality most would stick with base ISO regardless of CCD or CMOS. 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 19, 2015, 01:26:30 am
Such a good informative thread had turned into a crap debate between the CCD VS CMOS debate. I mean com'n Full Frame CMOS is still non-existent, I can't take a picture with it I am sorry. Yeah CMOS has better high iso performance but when you desire the best quality most would stick with base ISO regardless of CCD or CMOS.  

We are talking about low ISO performance - what are you thinking? 645 format is indeed crop for medium format film. You want full frame? At least shoot 12x20. There are also digital sensors in large format sizes.

I also provided numbers for cross grade for the original topic. Where are your numbers?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: tjv on July 19, 2015, 04:25:39 am
What is he thinking? Perhaps what many other posters here, including myself have said in other words already. That your constant, tedious and often insulting one-line conversation ran tired a long time ago? That perhaps it's time for you to move on?

We are talking about low ISO performance - what are you thinking? 645 format is indeed crop for medium format film. You want full frame? At least shoot 12x20. There are also digital sensors in large format sizes.

I also provided numbers for cross grade for the original topic. Where are your numbers?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 19, 2015, 06:42:32 am
What is he thinking? Perhaps what many other posters here, including myself have said in other words already. That your constant, tedious and often insulting one-line conversation ran tired a long time ago? That perhaps it's time for you to move on?


Feel free to defend your CCD. I'm done with it and I no longer need to carry the burden of making images worse than D800E.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on July 19, 2015, 12:23:37 pm
We are talking about low ISO performance - what are you thinking? 645 format is indeed crop for medium format film. You want full frame? At least shoot 12x20. There are also digital sensors in large format sizes.

I also provided numbers for cross grade for the original topic. Where are your numbers?

Did you get picked on a lot as a kid? Give it a rest. kthxbye.

Feel free to defend your CCD. I'm done with it and I no longer need to carry the burden of making images worse than D800E.

Promise?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 19, 2015, 01:11:46 pm
Did you get picked on a lot as a kid? Give it a rest. kthxbye.

Promise?

I mean I'm done with defending the image quality of CCD, because I have got rid of it. I've tried various ways like bracketing and blending but failed. Good luck with you.

Registering alternative forum accounts can't change facts of image quality unfortunately. Sorry :)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on July 19, 2015, 02:07:47 pm
Feel free to defend your CCD. I'm done with it and I no longer need to carry the burden of making images worse than D800E.

I guess for the type of images you make that is the case. But I tested the D800E right alongside a 645D and then took similar shots (from identical location and scene etc) with my IQ160 and Rodenstock 40 HR-W and the IQ160 blew the D800E away. The files were MUCH better. Granted it was not a long exposure situation, not high iso and the contrast in the scene was well within the range of both cameras. A big difference was the lens. Neither the 15mm Zeiss, the 14-24mm Nikon or the 24mm PC-E could get close to the quality one gets with the Rodenstock glass. I guess with the IQ150/250/350 one gets the best of both worlds (minus the amount of movements possible)

But no one can convince you of anything. You are right in what you say but you are also wrong. You are one stubborn individual.

I guess no good photography was ever made before the Sony Exmor came along. It was impossible right? It was too hard? To you everything but the EXMOR is junk and not worth paying a penny for.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 19, 2015, 02:42:44 pm
I guess for the type of images you make that is the case. But I tested the D800E right alongside a 645D and then took similar shots (from identical location and scene etc) with my IQ160 and Rodenstock 40 HR-W and the IQ160 blew the D800E away. The files were MUCH better. Granted it was not a long exposure situation, not high iso and the contrast in the scene was well within the range of both cameras. A big difference was the lens. Neither the 15mm Zeiss, the 14-24mm Nikon or the 24mm PC-E could get close to the quality one gets with the Rodenstock glass. I guess with the IQ150/250/350 one gets the best of both worlds (minus the amount of movements possible)

But no one can convince you of anything. You are right in what you say but you are also wrong. You are one stubborn individual.

I guess no good photography was ever made before the Sony Exmor came along. It was impossible right? It was too hard? To you everything but the EXMOR is junk and not worth paying a penny for.



What you say here is right. Of course I know that the Rodenstock lenses can blow away the Nikon/Zeiss lenses. Of course I know that for a single exposure where dynamic range is within control (e.g. portrait in studio) the CCD digital backs can blow away the D800E. Yes if you shoot outdoors with the requirement of single exposure and relatively low contrast then 60MP/80MP Dalsa with Rodenstock/some Schneider can destroy the D800E. What I was suggesting is that such case is perhaps a small fraction of all "worthy" photography (at least to my limited knowledge) for the following reason: as photography techniques advances, people tend to like pictures of high contrast scenes that are more challenging, and it's more and more difficult to achieve eye-candy effects of visual impact with the constraints above (i.e. single exposure, low contrast scene, outdoor). Of course there are many nice and classic pictures made within such constraints, but if you shoot within the limit of the IQ280 then it's probably impossible to shoot anything better than Joe Cornish can. However if you shoot with some different gear then you have the chance to shoot something different from his work. If you can bracket with a CCD, then I can also stitch with a CMOS (either flat or spherical). My original statement of "CCD has no advantage outdoors" is based on such conditions. I know it's a blowing statement but I still stand with it.

Examples of gear making a difference:

a) Suppose you do aerial of a sunset - there is no chance to bracket.

b) Can Joe Cornish shoot Thierry Cohen's Darkened Cities with merely an IQ280?

Again, the right tool for the job - 60MP/80MP Dalsa still have advantages in certain areas, but the justifications can be removed over time as technology advances, and depreciation is strongly associated with justification removals. P65+ used to be at $40K inductive price, but is now sold for only $8K - $10K privately among my friends. Does pixel and frame slow down the depreciation well enough?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on July 19, 2015, 02:56:01 pm
I mean I'm done with defending the image quality of CCD, because I have got rid of it. I've tried various ways like bracketing and blending but failed. Good luck with you.
Thank you. I have yet to decide which way to go, but based on my current gear, either way will give me a great opportunity to grow. Maybe I'll go with both? Who knows, but I did come to this thread to see how P1 users feel about the stated thread topic, not CCD vs. CMOS.


Registering alternative forum accounts can't change facts of image quality unfortunately. Sorry :)
Are you suggesting I'm someone else with whom you have a current My-CMOS-DRdick-is-bigger-than-your-moreMP-CCDdick contest? If so, I'm very flattered, thanks. The knowledge, experience, and quality of images of the members here are things I aspire to acquire as I start this new journey. The fact I'm someone else means that I'm likely further along than I realized, LOL. FWIW, I've been DucatiTerminator for about 14 years, based on a bike I bought in 2001:

(http://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/terminator01-jpg.562616/)

As you can see, I have a lot of room to grow with my photography, though admittedly this was a single test shot that I grabbed and used since the rest were all NSFW model shots. In case you still think I'm someone else, my Facebook is public, but you likely won't find any inspiring shot there, especially in the CCD vs. CMOS arena. I hear you are or sometimes are in the LA area. Feel free to look me up.

As long as we are making assumptions, let me give it a shot -- young, first generation opinionated Korean male who feels he has to prove himself right no matter what (I've noticed this quality in many first generation Korean men -- many among my friends and extended family -- is this a cultural thing?). Am I close? LOL

Alvin
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 19, 2015, 03:11:11 pm
If the mods were so kind to push the shiny buttons on their control panel, they'd see that Mr. Song's IP matches up to a certain other gentleman who only posts in his defense in threads where Mr. Song is taking heat.
Ironic, I know.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 19, 2015, 04:03:58 pm
Hi,

I recall that LensRentals was testing the Canon 24-70/2.8 LII lens. It is much better than the corresponding Nikon offering, but when the mediocre Nikon was paired up with Nikon D800 sensor it run rings around the Canon. Sensor resolution matters a lot and so does sensor size.

No doubt, an 80 MP sensor paired with a mediocre lens will outperform very good lenses handicapped by a medium resolution sensor. Now, the Rodenstock and Schneider HR lenses are really good lenses. Can you use tilt, they may even perform close to optimum using medium apertures.

On the other hand, our friend Chris Barret seems to be happy with his 20+ years old Hasselbald V/Zeiss lenses. I essentially have the very same lenses and I feel that they are OK, but not without issues.

My take from this is really:

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 20, 2015, 03:53:42 am
Thank you. I have yet to decide which way to go, but based on my current gear, either way will give me a great opportunity to grow. Maybe I'll go with both? Who knows, but I did come to this thread to see how P1 users feel about the stated thread topic, not CCD vs. CMOS.

If you still cannot see why depreciation is related to technology then there is no need to look into my posts. Just add me to your ignore list and be done with it :)

Are you suggesting I'm someone else with whom you have a current My-CMOS-DRdick-is-bigger-than-your-moreMP-CCDdick contest? If so, I'm very flattered, thanks. The knowledge, experience, and quality of images of the members here are things I aspire to acquire as I start this new journey. The fact I'm someone else means that I'm likely further along than I realized, LOL. FWIW, I've been DucatiTerminator for about 14 years, based on a bike I bought in 2001:

As you can see, I have a lot of room to grow with my photography, though admittedly this was a single test shot that I grabbed and used since the rest were all NSFW model shots. In case you still think I'm someone else, my Facebook is public, but you likely won't find any inspiring shot there, especially in the CCD vs. CMOS arena. I hear you are or sometimes are in the LA area. Feel free to look me up.

I can be anyone. Just find a random photographer on the internet.

As long as we are making assumptions, let me give it a shot -- young, first generation opinionated Korean male who feels he has to prove himself right no matter what (I've noticed this quality in many first generation Korean men -- many among my friends and extended family -- is this a cultural thing?). Am I close? LOL

Alvin

I don't have to prove anything to you :)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 20, 2015, 03:58:54 am
If the mods were so kind to push the shiny buttons on their control panel, they'd see that Mr. Song's IP matches up to a certain other gentleman who only posts in his defense in threads where Mr. Song is taking heat.
Ironic, I know.

If you are satisfied with your gear but don't feel it necessary to prove it to anyone then just keep enjoying it. There is no need for personal attacks like this. I've been a moderator for a photography forum for a while and I never bother to chase any IP address - the most professional trolls always use VPN to register forum accounts and spam around.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 20, 2015, 05:08:53 am
If you are satisfied with your gear but don't feel it necessary to prove it to anyone then just keep enjoying it.

I'll start when you start taking your own advise, Song.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: voidshatter on July 20, 2015, 05:22:37 am
I'll start when you start taking your own advise, Song.

I believe you decided to add me to your ignore list - what makes it attractive for you to look into my posts again?  8)

I've been keen to show proof of image quality to people around the world, but probably not to you.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 20, 2015, 05:36:36 am
IQ: Stands for

- Image Quality
- A series of digital backs produced by Phase One.
- Intelligence Quotient

You certainly show proof of 2/3 of those.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: michael on July 20, 2015, 07:49:47 am
Mr. Song,

There have been several requests to ban you.

Yes, we know that if people don't want to see your post they can "ignore", but that is not the spirit of this Forum.

Therefore, you are kindly asked to adhere to our norms of behaviour, or be gone.

This is your one and only warning.

Michael
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 20, 2015, 01:54:55 pm
I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 20, 2015, 03:42:26 pm
Interesting post, particularly the bit about what the P1 dealer offered you for the $50k worth of gear you bought from them. Sheesh.

</begin_OT_rant>

How I still - after all these years - loathe with a passion P1's 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model and the 'exclusiveness' of ownership that comes with it (I'm surprised they don't include a P1 tie with every purchase). Might have been good for P1's balance sheet, but not for photography.

Still, credit where credit is due - not everyone could take something that costs under $5k to produce and retail it at $45k.

</end_OT_rant>
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 20, 2015, 04:09:12 pm
Hi,

I may have some issues with Phase One's upgrade policies.

1) If you have some kind of value added protection plan that you are paying for that should include crossgrade/downgrade options to new technology backs, irrespectively of purchase price. You are paying for value protection.

2) Mount change options should be mount change options. The existing mount is dismounted and a new mount is mounted. It seems that the present option is implemented as a replacement of an existing back with another back. Unfortunately, it seems that all backs are not created equal.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr


I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on July 20, 2015, 04:34:22 pm
P1's trick is to motivate dealers to REALLY WANT to sell P1 products. They do this by setting high prices and  offering HUGE margins eg. 40 or 50%, and a threat to chuck them if they offer discounts. This has the effect of making the Phase backs expensive compared to companies that sell with "normal" margins, but it makes the dealers VERY MOTIVATED to sell Phase rather than say Pentax.  Unfortunately this means that a dealer will never offer more than about 40-50% cash buyback price on any piece of Phase equipment - unless of course it is offset by another "upgrade" Phase sale, where one fictitious inflated number offsets the other.

Some smart dealers earn their commission by training their customers, and working their butts off for them, answer the phone at all hours and solve impossible problems, saving the customer's job. Others presumably have good connections and good looks, personality and convincing salesmanship, a bit like art galleries who sell to museums. A few survive on geographical exclusivity and incompetence. Depending on who you deal with and what you want out of life, with you may or not get your money's worth from your dealer, but Phase has managed to bypass any normal price comparison process :)



Edmund.

Interesting post, particularly the bit about what the P1 dealer offered you for the $50k worth of gear you bought from them. Sheesh.

</begin_OT_rant>

How I still - after all these years - loathe with a passion P1's 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model and the 'exclusiveness' of ownership that comes with it (I'm surprised they don't include a P1 tie with every purchase). Might have been good for P1's balance sheet, but not for photography.

Still, credit where credit is due - not everyone could take something that costs under $5k to produce and retail it at $45k.

</end_OT_rant>
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 20, 2015, 05:41:39 pm
In my view, this shows that the only time that can be right to purchase a P1 back is when it delivers fully what you need, not when you think that it's close but still missing something that a future model may make completely right.

As far as I am concerned, that time may be when they come up with a full(er) size CMOS in the 80~100 mp range. That will make the upgrade non sense irrelevant because there will be no rationale for needing anything else. ;)

If that kind of cash is important to you, then knowing when the time is right to buy remains the most important of the buyer's skills. If cash isn't important then no issue to the subscription model, but it is still akin to a form of "let's fund their long term development and get partial value on the way there (status being a form of value very important to some)" thing.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on July 20, 2015, 06:07:26 pm
i cannot agree more with edmund  ;D ;D ;D ;D
phase is a company that only exist because of his tricky business model...future is not on their side , because any model of business is never eternal.
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 20, 2015, 07:18:59 pm
As far as I am concerned, that time may be when they come up with a full(er) size CMOS in the 80~100 mp range. That will make the upgrade non sense irrelevant because there will be no rationale for needing anything else. ;)

Hard to disagree with that.

If (when!) that day comes I hope that HB release it as a sub-$15k back (don't care if it's V-mount) a la the CFV-50c; if it's left to P1 it will be $45k+ ... as usual.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 21, 2015, 09:09:04 am
I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep

I would dream to own a p1 kit with 180. ;) Do you use flash with the DB?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 21, 2015, 09:12:02 am
Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 21, 2015, 09:51:07 am
How is that different from ANY other peice of equipment you can buy in the open market?
One could find the same model of car of the same vintage (used) at very different prices at two different dealers and of course, cheaper privately.

Like with anything else in life, do your homework as a buyer and as a seller. Blaming others is an easy way out, but that is not the root cause of the problem.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 21, 2015, 09:58:50 am
Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

It is a rapidly changing world. Look at the price of the Leica S-E now, dropped to $6K if some of the posts are to be believed.

With P-1, the model has been one of an 'exclusive club' with membership strictly controlled through  a small number of dealers. You paid for the prestige of owning the famed 'Phase' system and hopefully recovered your money's worth in image quality and the service offered if something were to go wrong. The fact that with such a beautifully crafted product things should not go wrong easily is another topic altogether.

With the arrival of Pentax, Hassy and possibly Sony in the near future, offering, IMHO, much better products at a much lower price, transparent pricing, easy access to used lenses and accessories the game has changed completely. P-1 will not be able to continue the status quo despite a core group of die-hard supporters. Prices have to come down drastically, nobody sees the point in paying five times the price for essentially the same sensor (with perhaps even better 'tuning') as the 645Z unless one has very special needs that can only be met with the Phase technology. The monopoly is over.

Which is good news for anybody looking to get into MF at this time.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 21, 2015, 10:03:14 am
How is that different from ANY other peice of equipment you can buy in the open market?
One could find the same model of car of the same vintage (used) at very different prices at two different dealers and of course, cheaper at a dealer.

Like with anything else in life, do your homework as a buyer and as a seller. Blaming others is an easy way out, but that is not the root cause of the problem.

I agree, it has ALWAYS been Caveat Emptor, which is why the prices are dropping, because the buyer has more options and cheaper ones at that. You cannot blame Phase for their pricing policies, but you CAN blame the dealer/sales person for not providing full disclosure.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 21, 2015, 10:06:33 am
How is that different...

What are you talking about ? Since when has the P1 dealer network been an 'open market' ? It's essentially operated along the lines of franchise, with all that that entails (price regulation etc.), which makes the significant price differential on the used gear that I highlighted worthy of mention.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 21, 2015, 10:09:04 am
What are you talking about ? Since when has the P1 dealer network been an 'open market' ? It's essentially operated along the lines of franchise, with all that that entails (price regulation etc.), which makes the significant price differential on the used gear that I highlighted worthy of mention.

What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on July 21, 2015, 10:38:14 am
Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

As a Phase One user, I would have to say, that first deal is a very good one.  If I read you correctly, 17K for a used 180, with VAW, and no trade in?  The going rate for a trade from 260 to 380 is 17599, and that's giving up the 260.  I wonder if that is a typo on the website?  Just curious.

Paul

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 21, 2015, 11:09:33 am
Paul - gave them a call - not a typo - US $17k (exc. any applicable sales tax) with VAW 'til Jan 2017.

Also spotted an IQ160 for US $13k from another P1 dealer, but with no warranty (could be purchased separately; the back is probably being sold on consignment). Not quite as good a deal, but still a decent price.

Jim
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 21, 2015, 11:12:58 am
What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.

Here you go, have a cuddly wombat:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ShzdsOm6yQc/UupahBMjxqI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/cOFcaQ3ltuU/s1600/baby-wombats-belly-rubs.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 21, 2015, 01:56:05 pm
What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.

What was meant, I suppose, is that Phase One controls their dealers. They are not allowed to publish prices online. They are not allowed to compete on price. To me, it seems similar to the situation with car dealers 20 years ago: you could only get a new car at list price and the list price included a big margin so that the car dealer could give you a good price on your used old car. A friend of mine was a car dealer and explained it to me: let us say that the extra margin on new cars was 5000$, they would use that to offer a price for your used car which was 1000$ above what a private person would pay. They still pocketed 4000$, part of which went to finance used car sales, lending cars to prospective customers, some extra service, etc...

Price control is a necessity for that subvention system to work. If you have no price control, some dealers will lower their prices by 5000$ and not offer the extra services. Customers will complain about the more expensive dealer being more expensive but still require the extra service. When price fixing became illegal in the EU a few years ago, the practices were exposed but many car dealers went bankrupt.

It seems that this is the way Phase One markets their cameras and backs, since they are about 10,000$ more expensive than the equivalent Leaf or Hasselblad systems.


Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on July 21, 2015, 05:25:37 pm
 ;D ;D ;D not for long time the phase one model will survive.....wait and see....
i am very happy with my iq160
but very very disapointed with their tricky way to sell products !
and the future is on our side...
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on July 21, 2015, 11:18:54 pm
i have a feeling that when you put a 645z at $6K next to an XF with IQ250C at $30K, the Pentax may be the camera with better focus, and very similar sensor quality :)

Some of the people on this forum may decide to try the Pentax before buying the Phase :)

Edmund



What was meant, I suppose, is that Phase One controls their dealers. They are not allowed to publish prices online. They are not allowed to compete on price. To me, it seems similar to the situation with car dealers 20 years ago: you could only get a new car at list price and the list price included a big margin so that the car dealer could give you a good price on your used old car. A friend of mine was a car dealer and explained it to me: let us say that the extra margin on new cars was 5000$, they would use that to offer a price for your used car which was 1000$ above what a private person would pay. They still pocketed 4000$, part of which went to finance used car sales, lending cars to prospective customers, some extra service, etc...

Price control is a necessity for that subvention system to work. If you have no price control, some dealers will lower their prices by 5000$ and not offer the extra services. Customers will complain about the more expensive dealer being more expensive but still require the extra service. When price fixing became illegal in the EU a few years ago, the practices were exposed but many car dealers went bankrupt.

It seems that this is the way Phase One markets their cameras and backs, since they are about 10,000$ more expensive than the equivalent Leaf or Hasselblad systems.



Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 22, 2015, 12:56:20 am
i have a feeling that when you put a 645z at $6K next to an XF with IQ250C at $30K, the Pentax may be the camera with better focus, and very similar sensor quality :)

Some of the people on this forum may decide to try the Pentax before buying the Phase :)

It it is also easier to get. I can order a 645Z at amazon.co.jp before 18:35 today and have it delivered at my door tomorrow. I could in fact order 8 of the them and it would still work the same.

Who needs a back up? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Chris Livsey on July 22, 2015, 02:46:14 am
Let's step back some years, I have a feeling that when you put a Leica M7 at $? (but think a large number)  next to an Zorki at $? ( think a smaller (much) number), the Zorki can be fitted with the same  "sensor" quality.
Some of the people used to decide to try the Zorki before buying the Leica yet Leica prospered. When the end result was printed, those were the days, (and remember the glass was/is interchangeable) who could tell?

Just saying  ;)

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 22, 2015, 03:32:22 am
On the other hand, we don't discuss Leica and Zorki, and the lenses are not interchangable.

Interesting to see the Leica S-E going cheapo these days, BTW...

Best regards
Erik


Let's step back some years, I have a feeling that when you put a Leica M7 at $? (but think a large number)  next to an Zorki at $? ( think a smaller (much) number), the Zorki can be fitted with the same  "sensor" quality.
Some of the people used to decide to try the Zorki before buying the Leica yet Leica prospered. When the end result was printed, those were the days, (and remember the glass was/is interchangeable) who could tell?

Just saying  ;)


Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 22, 2015, 03:41:07 am
Let's step back some years, I have a feeling that when you put a Leica M7 at $? (but think a large number)  next to an Zorki at $? ( think a smaller (much) number), the Zorki can be fitted with the same  "sensor" quality.
Some of the people used to decide to try the Zorki before buying the Leica yet Leica prospered. When the end result was printed, those were the days, (and remember the glass was/is interchangeable) who could tell?

At the time, the price of the "sensor" was not included in the price of the camera. Today, especially for MF formats, it is supposed to make a large percentage of the final product. Moreover, comparing to Zorki is not exactly fair, since the industry which produced it at the time was heavily subsidised.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 22, 2015, 03:45:59 am
i have a feeling that when you put a 645z at $6K next to an XF with IQ250C at $30K, the Pentax may be the camera with better focus, and very similar sensor quality :)

According to dpreview (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7908439880/phase-one-xf-medium-format-camera-system-offers-new-af-system-and-touchscreen-interface), the list price for the XF with IQ350c is $40,990.00, not $30K.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on July 22, 2015, 03:48:45 am
...and you can drive as fast (legally) in a Honda as you can in a Bugatti, you can play a Squier just as well as a PRS Custom, a pair of Eccos serve the same purpose as a pair of $1200 Graziano & Girling and so on.

Tell us something we don't already know.
No, really.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 22, 2015, 04:37:15 am
...and you can drive as fast (legally) in a Honda as you can in a Bugatti, you can play a Squier just as well as a PRS Custom, a pair of Eccos serve the same purpose as a pair of $1200 Graziano & Girling and so on.

Here you are comparing standard products with luxury products. That is not quite relevant. It would be if we would compare, for example, the prices between a Sony A7 with a signed special edition Leica, the Leica camera being sold to collectors who will rarely use it to take pictures.

MF cameras are not marketed as luxury products, but as high-end professional gear.

Besides, Phase One cameras can be compared to Leaf cameras. The two system share a lot of DNA, yet Leaf is considerably cheaper.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 07:22:00 am
...and you can drive as fast (legally) in a Honda as you can in a Bugatti, you can play a Squier just as well as a PRS Custom, a pair of Eccos serve the same purpose as a pair of $1200 Graziano & Girling and so on.

Tell us something we don't already know.
No, really.

Yes, but the Bugatti will instantly identify you as 'rich' and perhaps 'famous' and would be a huge chick magnet. Doubt the Phase could do that - just sayin.......... ;)

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 22, 2015, 07:29:10 am
Hi,

My take on the issue is that I don't have the slightest doubt that a lady driver, say Suzie Wolff, driving an Ariel Atom would be much faster than an ugly fat fellow like me driving a Bugatti on any road with a curve on it. The Atom is made for racing and Suzie knows how to drive...

Best regards
Erik


Yes, but the Bugatti will instantly identify you as 'rich' and perhaps 'famous' and would be a huge chick magnet. Doubt the Phase could do that - just sayin.......... ;)


Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 07:41:08 am
What we are talking about are Brand Positioning Strategies.

To me it looks like Phase One has one strategy: exclusive & reassuringly expensive. Pentax has a different one: affordability, MF for the masses.
(Hasselblad seem to drift between the two....)
...................

Again, the concept of the 'exclusive club'. If you offer a product that does nothing more than the cheaper one but is priced at a point that only a few can afford it, it becomes desirable, even highly so, for some people with a need to belong to that rarified circle. That is obviously why luxury goods sell as they do.

On so many workshops I've seen amateurs with very poor photography or camera skills sporting Leicas and Phase systems simply because they believed that not only would it instantly improve their images but give them 'credibility' and access to that select group. On one such trip recently there was a person with an M240 and a Noctilux who thought he could clean his sensor with a lens brush and came running to me for help when he realized the sensor was now completely covered with dust!

That is a market that swallows Leicas and Phase. Guess who bought the most expensive Leica ever sold? And where all the luxury goods in the world are going?

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 22, 2015, 07:53:15 am
That is a market that swallows Leicas and Phase. Guess who bought the most expensive Leica ever sold? And where all the luxury goods in the world are going?

Yep. The place where I have seen the highest concentration of phase backs, in fact the only place where I saw more than one, was in Shichuan/Jyuzaighou.

I was stitching with my D800+Leica 180mm f2.8 APO next to a guy with a P45+ who gave me an hilarious condenscending look. He would cried had he seen the tack sharp 400 megapixel resulting file but he probably still feels good about owning the "best".. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on July 22, 2015, 08:09:35 am
 ;D

all this will be wiped out when all the real competitors will start shipping the cmos cameras .....and then the war start , and finally phase will have to change their business model to survive as leica with their s model have already started . or disappear...
no mercy.
best. ;)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JoeKitchen on July 22, 2015, 10:04:41 am
Seems to me there are a lot of people here with buyer's remorse and looking for an excuse to bash P1.  That, or there are a lot a really smart MBA grads looking to show of their immense knowledge of marketing and price strategy, hoping to land a job with some of the companies lurking in the shadows on this site.  

Three years ago, for my P45+, RM3Di, three lenses and a handful of other misc. items, I spent north of $30K.  I consider it to be a great investment and I would do it again, even with all of the other cameras that have been released since then.  Why?  

Because I shoot architecture and interiors, and I wanted a camera specifically designed to shoot that subject.  However I had no allusions as to what I could do with this camera.  I knew it was a base ISO, or one stop higher, camera (at the time at least, with the current version of C1, I feel ISO400 would be good for certain types of images) that I had to always shoot on a tripod with.  It is slow moving, however I am a slow moving shooter.  The DR was great at the time, but lacking compared to the now almighty Sony, but to be honest, I'd rather have a better color field than DR, which CCDs have.  Also, the tech camera lenses are beyond anything I have seen with any other optics on any other platform (exception could be made for the new P1 35mm). 

So, at the end of it, I had very specific needs for the way I shoot a very specific subject, and I bought accordingly.  If you just decided to buy because you thought the camera could perform miracles, well then I have to agree with Keith.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on July 22, 2015, 10:06:37 am
...and you can drive as fast (legally) in a Honda as you can in a Bugatti, you can play a Squier just as well as a PRS Custom, a pair of Eccos serve the same purpose as a pair of $1200 Graziano & Girling and so on.

Tell us something we don't already know.
No, really.

Actually, I needed to go and try both the Pentax and the new XF to realize that if you don't need a leaf shutter or tether, THE PENTAX IS BETTER.
The Pentax is ugly and boxy, but feels faster, more interactive, and has better focus.

The Pentax is NOT EQUIVALENT to the Phase, IMHO The Pentax IS SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER .

Of course, if you already have a Phase IQ back and a Phamiya, the XF is a solid improvement on what you have.

Now, YOU may have already known this, but I'm willing to bet that most members of this forum have not held both a Pentax  Z and and XF in their very own hands.

The new Pentax may be a "downgrade" from Phase in price, but it sure feels like like moving from a venerable Rolls Royce limo to a Porsche, an upgrade in performance at a quarter the price. At $8K or so with a lens, the Pentax also isn't exactly a cheap camera, and it doesn't feel cheap, in case you haven't held one it is ugly, chunky,  weather-sealed and SOLID and has two tripod mounts one for vertical shots which makes it even more solid in real-world use. Of course, at current prices the low end Hassies and the Leica S are competitors and in many ways superior to the Pentax body but they don't offer that killer 50MP Sony sensor at that price point.

Edmund

PS. The Japanese Pentax/Ricoh have three advantages over Phase: a VERY fast dev pipeline with UI, ergonomics, electronics and screen supplied by the K line, a deep pool of engineering talent that can be conscripted, and a rich parent company for whom MF is a prestige loss-leader.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Jeffery Salter on July 22, 2015, 11:45:26 am
Please.  Go buy any camera.  If a Phase is calling you buy one.  If a Yashica Mat tlr is calling you buy one.  If a Pentax 645D/Z is calling you buy one.

Then get up early, when the light is right and take that camera for a walk. Shoot lots of pictures.  Sorry gentleman it’s a cop out if you only shoot 900 pictures on a perfectly fine operating camera and decide "it" doesn't take good pictures. I would wager to say it’s more about learning the tool and understanding what’s it capable of doing then applying it to one’s vision.  Its a rare frame indeed for me that a picture is “bad” because of the camera.  I wish it was other wise…

I have made many images which just don’t work because of my choices…. bad composition, poor understanding of lighting, improper camera technique and simply having nothing to say in the image, i.e. poor content.  And all that is okay.  Because the only way to become a great (either technically or artistically)image maker  is to shoot thousands of images and learn from your mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Excuses don’t take pictures.

If you don’t have any passion for your art.  Spending all your time bitching about camera prices is not going to put a print on your wall.  

If you don’t know:

Rembrandt, Vermeer, Hopper, Peder Balke,

Bill Brandt, Sebastian Selgado, Eugene Smith, Mary Ellen Mark,

Akira Kurasawa, Gordon Willis, Vittorio Storaro, Sven Nyvist

then perhaps you should.  

Learn what makes a great image.  Study how artists who inspire you create.  Find out what you want your images to say.  Study your craft.  All these will help you determine which “black box” or camera will be your partner on the path.

Wake up your passion for the image.

Thank you,
Jeffery

P.S. I realize my list of artists is highly western sensitive.  Others from around the world can share their sources of inspiration.

P.S. Sorry for the typo in my earlier post of Akira Kurosawa last name.

(http://www.jefferysalter.com/files/Jeffery_Salter_Portrait.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JoeKitchen on July 22, 2015, 12:39:16 pm

Then get up early, when the light is right and take that camera for a walk. Shoot lots of pictures.  Sorry gentleman it’s a cop out if you only shoot 900 pictures on a perfectly fine operating camera and decide "it" doesn't take good pictures. I would wager to say it’s more about learning the tool and understanding what’s it capable of doing then applying it to one’s vision.  Its a rare frame indeed for me that a picture is “bad” because of the camera.  I wish it was other wise…



+1

I was once told be a photo professor that you don't really know your film until you can take all the rolls you shot, lay them out flat and on top of each other, and get a stack at least 6 inches thick.  I doubt 900 shots would get you there.  
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: buckshot on July 22, 2015, 12:46:35 pm
Cheap shot.
I'm not criticising anyone for sharing detailed, honest & first hand information, but rather I'm criticising those who spend a fortune without making sure the system can do what they want it to do.

There are few people who are prepared to pull back the curtain on the cloak-and-dagger world of the numbers game we are asked to play to get into MF through the dealer route, so when someone does, it doesn't help anyone (other than the dealers) when someone else tries to publicly pull them down a peg or two. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but it came across like that.

I for one have found Pradeep's contribution to this thread - which admittedly has wobbled around more than a drunk on an escalator (how on earth did it degenerate into a CCD vs CMOS debacle at one time) - hugely informative.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 01:00:47 pm
Please.  Go buy any camera.  If a Phase is calling you buy one.  If a Yashica Mat tlr is calling you buy one.  If a Pentax 645D/Z is calling you buy one.

Then get up early, when the light is right and take that camera for a walk. Shoot lots of pictures.  Sorry gentleman it’s a cop out if you only shoot 900 pictures on a perfectly fine operating camera and decide "it" doesn't take good pictures. I would wager to say it’s more about learning the tool and understanding what’s it capable of doing then applying it to one’s vision.  Its a rare frame indeed for me that a picture is “bad” because of the camera.  I wish it was other wise…

I have made many images which just don’t work because of my choices…. bad composition, poor understanding of lighting, improper camera technique and simply having nothing to say in the image, i.e. poor content.  And all that is okay.  Because the only way to become a great (either technically or artistically)image maker  is to shoot thousands of images and learn from your mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Excuses don’t take pictures.

If you don’t have any passion for your art.  Spending all your time bitching about camera prices is not going to put a print on your wall.  

If you don’t know:

Rembrandt, Vermeer, Hopper, Peder Balke,

Bill Brandt, Sebastian Selgado, Eugene Smith, Mary Ellen Mark,

Akira Kurasawo, Gordon Willis, Vittorio Storaro, Sven Nyvist

then perhaps you should.  

Learn what makes a great image.  Study how artists who inspire you create.  Find out what you want your images to say.  Study your craft.  All these will help you determine which “black box” or camera will be your partner on the path.

Wake up your passion for the image.

Thank you,
Jeffery

P.S. I realize my list of artists is highly western sensitive.  Others from around the world can share their sources of inspiration.

(http://www.jefferysalter.com/files/Jeffery_Salter_Portrait.jpg)

Thank you, very helpful post indeed!

Perhaps it is not a good idea to be honest here. It has suddenly become all about my own experience and how foolish I was etc etc. Most have drunk the Koolaid and are happy in their 'new clothes' without having the courage to admit that just maybe, maybe they are indeed naked!

If you cared to read my post fully, you would see that I was never complaining about the price, I happily paid what I did for the camera, just as I did more than twice that for my car. I am very happy with the latter, but the camera never delivered on what was assumed it would (yes, my fault for making the assumptions in the first place). I was complaining about the upgrade policy and depreciation, specifically of P-1 system, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. I also came in on page 8 because nobody had talked about their experience in all that time.

And yes, FYI, I did do all the things you suggest I should. I've done them perhaps for at least as long as you have (I don't know your story since you've not shared your experience on this thread). My first camera was a rangefinder in the 60s and my first DSLR was the Canon D60 in 2002. And yes, I've been to the museums, seen the Masters' work, learnt how to paint in order to understand how light paints an image in a camera, was a beta tester for Photoshop etc etc. That should give you an idea that I am not exactly a foolish amateur with too much money.

Perhaps it would be good once in a while for Professionals to accept the fact that there may be amateurs out there who do not make money from photography but are equally, if not more so, passionate about the art. That we too are eager to learn and improve ourselves and are constantly striving to do so, that we are, some of us, capable of spending the kind of money that keeps the industry going, that keeps the workshops of the professionals full. We learn from you, you earn from us (at least some of you do). It is a symbiotic relationship. We are amateurs ONLY because we do not make money from photography. Do not assume that every amateur is by definition a poor photographer or is clueless about the craft.

BTW, since you've made this personal, your work (at least from what I see on your website) is hardly inspiring, perhaps you need to go see the Masters again. And it is obvious your choice of artists is western, since you cannot spell Kurosawa correctly - BTW, I do have all his work in my collection.

It does not help when on a supposedly 'pro' forum such as this, those who have mastered the craft are quick to jump on the new guy on the forum because he/she has not yet paid his dues in the number  of use(less) posts and pontification.

Pradeep

Just for the record, I've taken over 4000 images with the Pentax in the past three months since I've owned it. Here is one taken in Africa after sunset at ISO1600. Now please tell me how I could have taken this with the Phase IQ180.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on July 22, 2015, 01:05:35 pm
And then there's the tale of an amateur that went to a workshop and was persuaded to blow $42000 on a Phase system before realising it couldn't take the kind of images he thought it could.

Sorry, Pradeep, but fools and their money have always been easily parted.

That's hitting a bit below the belt, isn't it?

As I get closer to pulling the trigger on a Phase system, I appreciate Pradeep's insight and shared experience. I consider my self an amateur; maybe I should consider attending a workshop? LOL

Alvin
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 01:08:33 pm
+1

I was once told be a photo professor that you don't really know your film until you can take all the rolls you shot, lay them out flat and on top of each other, and get a stack at least 6 inches thick.  I doubt 900 shots would get you there.  

I will repeat what I said in my original post on this thread:

"Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories)."

It was definitely not for lack of intent, but I do not need to prove it to anybody here.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JoeKitchen on July 22, 2015, 01:14:18 pm
I will repeat what I said in my original post on this thread:

"Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories)."

It was definitely not for lack of intent, but I do not need to prove it to anybody here.

Pradeep

I did not mean this as an assault on you.  I just felt that he had a good point.  

With that being said, after I posted I thought that maybe it was not a true comparison.  Film you could buy as you need it, whereas a digital camera you need to buy outright.  
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Jeffery Salter on July 22, 2015, 01:26:37 pm
So is mine.

Turner, Schiele, Freud, Bacon, Salter…

Thanks for the lesson.

Thank you Keith.  I very much enjoy your interior studies.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on July 22, 2015, 01:34:20 pm
Thank you, very helpful post indeed!

Perhaps it is not a good idea to be honest here. It has suddenly become all about my own experience and how foolish I was etc etc. Most have drunk the Koolaid and are happy in their 'new clothes' without having the courage to admit that just maybe, maybe they are indeed naked!

If you cared to read my post fully, you would see that I was never complaining about the price, I happily paid what I did for the camera, just as I did more than twice that for my car. I am very happy with the latter, but the camera never delivered on what was assumed it would (yes, my fault for making the assumptions in the first place). I was complaining about the upgrade policy and depreciation, specifically of P-1 system, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. I also came in on page 8 because nobody had talked about their experience in all that time.

And yes, FYI, I did do all the things you suggest I should. I've done them perhaps for at least as long as you have (I don't know your story since you've not shared your experience on this thread). My first camera was a rangefinder in the 60s and my first DSLR was the Canon D60 in 2002. And yes, I've been to the museums, seen the Masters' work, learnt how to paint in order to understand how light paints an image in a camera, was a beta tester for Photoshop etc etc. That should give you an idea that I am not exactly a foolish amateur with too much money.

Perhaps it would be good once in a while for Professionals to accept the fact that there may be amateurs out there who do not make money from photography but are equally, if not more so, passionate about the art. That we too are eager to learn and improve ourselves and are constantly striving to do so, that we are, some of us, capable of spending the kind of money that keeps the industry going, that keeps the workshops of the professionals full. We learn from you, you earn from us (at least some of you do). It is a symbiotic relationship. We are amateurs ONLY because we do not make money from photography. Do not assume that every amateur is by definition a poor photographer or is clueless about the craft.

BTW, since you've made this personal, your work (at least from what I see on your website) is hardly inspiring, perhaps you need to go see the Masters again. And it is obvious your choice of artists is western, since you cannot spell Kurosawa correctly - BTW, I do have all his work in my collection.

It does not help when on a supposedly 'pro' forum such as this, those who have mastered the craft are quick to jump on the new guy on the forum because he/she has not yet paid his dues in the number  of use(less) posts and pontification.

Pradeep

Just for the record, I've taken over 4000 images with the Pentax in the past three months since I've owned it. Here is one taken in Africa after sunset at ISO1600. Now please tell me how I could have taken this with the Phase IQ180.


Pradeep,

The 900 shot citing was perhaps specific to you, however, I didn't read Jeffrey's post as an attack on you personally. It sounded more like a general nudge towards spending more time improving our craft instead of hashing out the same rhetoric on the forums. My $0.02.

Alvin
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on July 22, 2015, 01:51:32 pm
Please.  Go buy any camera.  If a Phase is calling you buy one.  If a Yashica Mat tlr is calling you buy one.  If a Pentax 645D/Z is calling you buy one.

Then get up early, when the light is right and take that camera for a walk. Shoot lots of pictures.  Sorry gentleman it’s a cop out if you only shoot 900 pictures on a perfectly fine operating camera and decide "it" doesn't take good pictures. I would wager to say it’s more about learning the tool and understanding what’s it capable of doing then applying it to one’s vision.  Its a rare frame indeed for me that a picture is “bad” because of the camera.  I wish it was other wise…

I have made many images which just don’t work because of my choices…. bad composition, poor understanding of lighting, improper camera technique and simply having nothing to say in the image, i.e. poor content.  And all that is okay.  Because the only way to become a great (either technically or artistically)image maker  is to shoot thousands of images and learn from your mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Excuses don’t take pictures.

If you don’t have any passion for your art.  Spending all your time bitching about camera prices is not going to put a print on your wall.  

If you don’t know:

Rembrandt, Vermeer, Hopper, Peder Balke,

Bill Brandt, Sebastian Selgado, Eugene Smith, Mary Ellen Mark,

Akira Kurasawa, Gordon Willis, Vittorio Storaro, Sven Nyvist

then perhaps you should.  

Learn what makes a great image.  Study how artists who inspire you create.  Find out what you want your images to say.  Study your craft.  All these will help you determine which “black box” or camera will be your partner on the path.

Wake up your passion for the image.

Thank you,
Jeffery

P.S. I realize my list of artists is highly western sensitive.  Others from around the world can share their sources of inspiration.

P.S. Sorry for the typo in my earlier post of Akira Kurosawa last name.

(http://www.jefferysalter.com/files/Jeffery_Salter_Portrait.jpg)

Thank you for this, Jeffrey. I sometimes forget that this passion of ours is about capturing beautiful images after all. You're on MY list, BTW. :)

Alvin
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 02:14:20 pm
I did not mean this as an assault on you.  I just felt that he had a good point.  

With that being said, after I posted I thought that maybe it was not a true comparison.  Film you could buy as you need it, whereas a digital camera you need to buy outright.  

I did not see the point myself other than condescension that is so typical of so called professionals towards so called 'vanity amateurs'. To suggest that I need to go and 'improve my craft' from somebody whose craft despite being in the business of earning a living from it is mediocre at best is not helpful at all and is insulting. 

Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 22, 2015, 02:38:32 pm
Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

But this discussion actually serves a very useful purpose: unveiling business practices around Phase One products. These business practices are  -how can I say politely?- rather suspect and appear to prey upon whom you called the "vanity amateurs" (possibly also upon the "unsuspecting professional", I don't know).
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Jeffery Salter on July 22, 2015, 03:19:28 pm
Thank you, very helpful post indeed!


You are quite welcome.


Perhaps it is not a good idea to be honest here. It has suddenly become all about my own experience and how foolish I was etc etc. Most have drunk the Koolaid and are happy in their 'new clothes' without having the courage to admit that just maybe, maybe they are indeed naked!


I appreciate you sharing your camera shopping experiences. Feel free to wear clothes…..


If you cared to read my post fully, you would see that I was never complaining about the price, I happily paid what I did for the camera, just as I did more than twice that for my car. I am very happy with the latter, but the camera never delivered on what was assumed it would (yes, my fault for making the assumptions in the first place). I was complaining about the upgrade policy and depreciation, specifically of P-1 system, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. I also came in on page 8 because nobody had talked about their experience in all that time.


Okay.  I sincerely hope that you find a camera thats suits your vision and helps you express yourself. My post wasn’t about the “buying” it was about the “doing”.


And yes, FYI, I did do all the things you suggest I should. I've done them perhaps for at least as long as you have (I don't know your story since you've not shared your experience on this thread). My first camera was a rangefinder in the 60s and my first DSLR was the Canon D60 in 2002. And yes, I've been to the museums, seen the Masters' work, learnt how to paint in order to understand how light paints an image in a camera, was a beta tester for Photoshop etc etc. That should give you an idea that I am not exactly a foolish amateur with too much money.


Ah. I never mentioned anything about professionals or  amateur photographers.  But since you mention it.  Seeing the world fresh as an amateur.  With no limitations. Would be a wonderful place to be. I grabbed this off of wikipedia:  An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science in a non-professional or unpaid manner.  My post was about passion.  The French got it right.


BTW, since you've made this personal, your work (at least from what I see on your website) is hardly inspiring, perhaps you need to go see the Masters again.


I suck at photography.  I have no problem with that.  Everyday I wake up,  I say to myself “today is going to be a great day.  I can grow.  I can do better. I can learn.”  And you Pradeep?  


It does not help when on a supposedly 'pro' forum such as this, those who have mastered the craft are quick to jump on the new guy on the forum because he/she has not yet paid his dues in the number  of use(less) posts and pontification.


No one is “jumping” on you. Please be well. Go take your camera for a walk.


Just for the record, I've taken over 4000 images with the Pentax in the past three months since I've owned it. Here is one taken in Africa after sunset at ISO1600. Now please tell me how I could have taken this with the Phase IQ180.

Great shot thanks for sharing.  
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 22, 2015, 03:34:15 pm
Hi Pradeep,

Thanks for sharing you experience.

Personally, I own a P45+ back and I am very happy with it. But, it is also feel that it was a pretty bad expenditure I did.

My reasons to buy it was a bit different to yours. I read a lot about MFD. Being sort of scientific minded a lot made little sense to me. One way to find out was to jump on the train. I bought a used P45+ and a lot of old Hasselblad stuff. I like to shoot with the stuff, so it gives me some pleasure.

The results? Pretty exactly what I would expect from tests and spec-sheets, those data are pretty good!

So, on the plus side, I enjoy with shooting with the stuff. I can see a resolution/MTF advantage compared with the 24x36 stuff I have.

On the minus side:


My plan for the next stage was to buy a technical camera, H-Cam B1. Now, I decided to go with the Sony A7rII a Canon 24/3.5 TSE and a HCam-Master adapter I will use with my Hasselblad lenses.

Clearly, would I have the option to go say 80 MP on CMOS with live view on a 1.0X crop factor 645 back, I would go with it if cost was below 10k$US. But I don't pay more than 10k$US for a sensor and I don't buy less than 1.1X crop factor. So, MFD goes into limbo state and I am spending on Sony A7rII.

- Why I don't sell of the Hassy kit? I would miss it.

- Why I don't go with Canon 5Ds?  Because I don't think DSLRs with a flipping mirror are the future. Same applies for Nikon's offerings.

- Will I be happy with the Sony? Probably not! But, it is just a tool. If it does the job I will be happy.

As a side note, I considered renting some MFD equipment. But, I need to have some time to evaluate. Renting an MFD kit for a week would be more expensive than buying the P45+!

Cameras like the 645Z make some sense to me. Pentax can fall back on existing R&D for technology, has probably best weather sealing and a very competent lens maker. The reasons I didn't look into Pentax is that I don't know about their lens line and newly designed lenses are expensive. That said, the Pentax 645Z seems to be a great camera with a very attractive price.

Best regards
Erik




I did not see the point myself other than condescension that is so typical of so called professionals towards so called 'vanity amateurs'. To suggest that I need to go and 'improve my craft' from somebody whose craft despite being in the business of earning a living from it is mediocre at best is not helpful at all and is insulting.  

Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

Pradeep

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on July 22, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
Sounds great.

Could you share with us the extent of your testing in comparing the Pentax Z and Phase XF?

A. It's my opinion. Quickly arrived at, freely given, and probably worth as much as it costs you. Now, go and try by yourself.
B. My guess is that pigeons fly,  pigs don't. More testing won't necessarily change much here, even if an upgrade to PorcOS 2.0 is promised.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Primus on July 22, 2015, 04:07:12 pm
I'll answer my own question.

According to the homepage it seems that some Luminous Landscape/Rockhopper Workshops have an association with Phase One in that Phase One cameras are available for use, but I'm uncertain if Phase One are actively selling.

Just to set the record straight.

No, it was not a LuLa workshop but independently organized by several pros from around the world with about 45 photographers present, mostly amateurs (here we go again) several P-1 users among them. The workshop was booked by me for my wife and myself (she is not a photographer) about 18 months in advance. The Phase salesperson just happened to be there.  So it was neither a PODAS nor a joint workshop in that strict sense. There was one pro who was a P-1 user himself and he did try to sell me his used kit during the workshop (which should have been a clue for me but blinded as I was by all the hype - yes, my fault entirely - I did not pick it up).

 I've been on internet forums for years, starting with the Usenet  in '92 and the one thing I've learned is that a pi$$ing contest only makes everyone wet and stinky. Apologies for getting into one. Will not happen again.

Pradeep
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 22, 2015, 07:42:26 pm
Thanks to the thread. I have been wanting to "upgrade" to MFD lately and have done tones of research. What I have gone through right now:
1)Initially I was drawn to the entry level such as IQ140, H5D40 then realised the sensor size difference and its limitations.
2)Upon deciding on which system to land to, I have also been told how wonderful C1 is and how is better than competition and how great the P1 ecosystem is.
3))Heard about the TrueFocus, but was told Shineider lenses are better. Even the Mamiya lenses are sharper, much cheaper.
4)I then moved on to P65+ for its full frame awesomeness, I completely drool over the photos taken using P65+ and that's what MF is all about. But its poor LCD and incompatibility with the new XF puts me off.
5)Now upon learning the OP's experience, I hesitate because it seems like the gear I invest will quickly depreciate.
6)Back to square one. I may take a second look at Canon5Ds and Pentax645Z...They are cheap in relative terms. Hope Pentax will release leaf shutter lenses soon. I shoot mostly outdoor with strobes and occasionally may do landscape.
7)Maybe it's just not the best time to buy into the MFD world as the it's certainly heading towards a new era. Maybe by the time I makeup my mind the IQ backs will drop another few grands and become more affordable.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 22, 2015, 09:21:42 pm
6)Back to square one. I may take a second look at Canon5Ds and Pentax645Z...They are cheap in relative terms. Hope Pentax will release leaf shutter lenses soon. I shoot mostly

If you consider those options, I would also consider the a7rII and the D810. They both offer what is widely considered as sensors superior to that of the 5Ds with only slighly lower resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 23, 2015, 01:28:57 am
3))Heard about the TrueFocus, but was told Schneider lenses are better. Even the Mamiya lenses are sharper, much cheaper.

I don't know who told you that, but Hasselblad H series lenses are excellent.

Quote
5)Now upon learning the OP's experience, I hesitate because it seems like the gear I invest will quickly depreciate.

The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Where in the world are you located? It pays to shop worldwide for used MF gear, as the prices vary considerably around the world.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 23, 2015, 01:35:17 am
The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Another key problem of those is that they typically perform in ways that is not clearly superior to the latest DSLR costing even much less. ;)

It still makes sense if you use them in ways that are not possible for DSLRs (for example on a tech camera or with leaf shutter lenses).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 23, 2015, 01:44:13 am
Another key problem of those is that they typically perform in ways that is not clearly superior to the latest DSLR costing even much less. ;)

1: that is not a real "problem", especially if the idea is to learn if the limitations of a MF camera fit your way of working

2: and, at least in my experience, that is not even true. I prefer the rendering of the lenses and, for me, this is a clear superiority of my camera (an H4D-50) over anything I have tried in 24x36 format. Obviously, since this is a question of taste, other people will have a different opinion.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 23, 2015, 03:19:55 am
I cannot say I have much affection towards mirrorless despite people claiming it's the futures . I don't like how EVF works and they are not as responsive in my little experience. I work with Profoto strobes so if I went with the canon I could at least take advantage of its HSS function with my TTL-C trigger. Nikon has one as well but I rather have one camera system or acquire a completely new system (645Z, hassy, P1 etc).

645Z has slow flash sync which isnt a problem for many landscape shooters but I bet they will release some LS lenses in near future. I can deal with slow sync with ND filters outdoor and live with those limitations for now.

I still may buy a second hand P65 if prices come down much further so I will treat it as my specialty portrait camera. But between 645Z and 5DS is there a huge difference to justify the extra cost?

What ever gear I buy I plan to use it to shoot portrait and editorial with flash both outdoor and indoor, and occasionally landscape. Any advice will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 23, 2015, 03:30:11 am
I don't know who told you that, but Hasselblad H series lenses are excellent.
Just some from other people's experience but they maybe biased. Some said even the expensive Hassy lenses don't resolve very well above 50MP and are not as sharp as the cheap Mamiya ones. I currently have no experience in using either. However I do wonder why the HCD lenses are not capable of producing full frame image?

Quote
The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Where in the world are you located? It pays to shop worldwide for used MF gear, as the prices vary considerably around the world.
I know there are a lot of used glasses around but how does number of clicks affect lens performance? How many shots before a LS lens becomes useless?

Thanks
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on July 23, 2015, 04:34:22 am
hmmm, has this thread been derailed by a carefully placed "newbie"?

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 23, 2015, 05:23:28 am
Some said even the expensive Hassy lenses don't resolve very well above 50MP

Hasselblad has a camera capable to output 200 megapixels shots on offer (using multiple exposures). Same lenses.

Quote
However I do wonder why the HCD lenses are not capable of producing full frame image?

They have been designed for the slightly smaller Kodak CCDs of the time. It is not a real problem though, it is only 3 lenses and even then they may be used on the larger sensor, the extreme corners will just be a bit less sharp. In practice, by lens:
-the HCD 24 mm may be suffering the most, but 24mm is extremely wide and I think that most people buy that lens to use on the HTS and then it is not a problem
-the HCD 28mm loses a bit in the very extreme corners, but not that much
-the HCD 35-90 covers the full sensor at 40mm and above.
(This is only hearsay, as I have a Kodak sensor on my camera.)

But since you said you are interested in portraits, the HCD lenses are of no interest to you anyway...

Quote
I know there are a lot of used glasses around but how does number of clicks affect lens performance? How many shots before a LS lens becomes useless?

The leaf shutter on H lenses is rated at 100K exposures. It can be exchanged by Hasselblad for a fixed price listed on their web site if it fails.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 23, 2015, 05:55:30 am
Thanks for your clarification. I also do many ultrawide shots(at 16mm 35eqv) for some of my Prewedding work so I am quite interested in wide angle as well. I had a play at the local dealer and found the 35-90HCD super heavy. What would be the best full frame wide angle lens in Hassy's lineup?

Regarding multishot function, isn't it relying on sensor shift technology or whatever it's called to achieve 200MP files? It's like stitching so it's not a reflection on the lens resolving power as I understand.

Sorry for asking so many questions but there's a huge learning curve even before owning a camera! ;)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 23, 2015, 05:57:16 am
hmmm, has this thread been derailed by a carefully placed "newbie"?


not quite. I am just really new. Lol
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 23, 2015, 06:59:01 am
Thanks for your clarification. I also do many ultrawide shots(at 16mm 35eqv) for some of my Prewedding work so I am quite interested in wide angle as well. I had a play at the local dealer and found the 35-90HCD super heavy. What would be the best full frame wide angle lens in Hassy's lineup?

I would use the 28mm, which is not quite full frame but is easy to find used, is not too heavy and is quite good. I would also not buy a "full frame" camera in the H line up (which is only the 60 mpix camera), but an older 39 or 50 mpix CCD. They are a lot cheaper used, so you can try and resell them without losing too much money. The sensor is almost as big as full frame (bigger than the CMOS sensors). Their main disadvantage for wedding work is that they should be used between iso 50 - iso 200 for best results.

Quote
Regarding multishot function, isn't it relying on sensor shift technology or whatever it's called to achieve 200MP files? It's like stitching so it's not a reflection on the lens resolving power as I understand.

It is not like stitching. Stitching moves the lens, so that you get the same field of view times the amount of stitches. Multishot moves the sensor behind the lens, so emulates the sampling of a finer sensor behind the same lens.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: FelixWu on July 23, 2015, 09:42:29 pm
Thanks. Have you compared between h2,h4 and h5 bodies? Is the H2 focusing okay?
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 24, 2015, 01:13:57 am
Thanks. Have you compared between h2,h4 and h5 bodies? Is the H2 focusing okay?

I have compared the H1 and H4 bodies. The H1 was OK, but the H4 was more accurate. On a portrait, for example, the H1 sometimes missed focus by about 1/2cm (e.g. just in front of the eye instead of spot on the pupil), while the H4 was more consistent. However, the H1 was old and well used, so it may simply have been in need of calibration.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Chris Livsey on July 24, 2015, 04:15:38 am
My H1 is spot on focus, it was serviced within the last 12 months with a software update which may have an effect as well. I find you do need to precisely align the focus spot, it is very sensitive, and as usual the focus screen position indication may not be exact, so testing is required.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: NickT on July 26, 2015, 11:15:06 pm
I would use the 28mm, which is not quite full frame but is easy to find used, is not too heavy and is quite good.


I'm going to correct you if I may and say that the 28mm is *very* good although I am using it on a cropped chip (H4D40) so I may be missing soft edges.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on July 27, 2015, 02:02:32 am
I'm going to correct you if I may and say that the 28mm is *very* good although I am using it on a cropped chip (H4D40) so I may be missing soft edges.

I'm using it on a x1.1 chip (H4D-50) and I did not notice soft edges either.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on August 06, 2015, 06:11:08 pm
and now all the prices for used digital back will go downnnnnnnnn !
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on August 06, 2015, 06:46:34 pm
and now all the prices for used digital back will go downnnnnnnnn !

This month is Sony A7RII and Canon 5Ds month. Watch the buy/sell forum :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 07, 2015, 01:26:30 am
Hi,

Prices going down is good for buyers and less good for sellers. I would say that MFD getting more affordable is in general a good thing.

Something like the P45+ back I have and a bunch of old Zeiss glass can take some really nice images. On the other hand anyone can make great pictures with almost any decent camera. Also, the camera in your hands will always make a better image than the camera in your dreams. Especially if you put that thing on a tripod...

Best regards
Erik


This month is Sony A7RII and Canon 5Ds month. Watch the buy/sell forum :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ejmcompany on August 18, 2015, 02:00:10 pm
Erik,

Is the second shot down in Valbruna???
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 01, 2015, 08:49:24 am
and now phase one will anounce a lower prices.... stay tuned ! :D
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Paul2660 on September 01, 2015, 10:14:29 am
and now phase one will anounce a lower prices.... stay tuned ! :D
best.

No offense, but you have not been batting close to 100 recently on your rumors.  Remember the 100Mp CMOS just around the corner that someone on this site was testing from Hasselblad?  Where did that go? 

Personally I will be surprised if Phase One lowers their prices on anything.  Maybe the Chinese Stock Market crash has taken away some of the far east business, but overall Phase seems to be able to hold on where they are.  December tends to be the time when they make a price adjustment.

Right now it seems Phase One's concern is making enough of the XF bodies for the large number of customers that have pre-ordered them/sans a new back. 

However I guess anything is possible.

Paul
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: gerald.d on September 01, 2015, 11:46:25 am
No offense, but you have not been batting close to 100 recently on your rumors.  Remember the 100Mp CMOS just around the corner that someone on this site was testing from Hasselblad?  Where did that go? 

Personally I will be surprised if Phase One lowers their prices on anything.  Maybe the Chinese Stock Market crash has taken away some of the far east business, but overall Phase seems to be able to hold on where they are.  December tends to be the time when they make a price adjustment.

Right now it seems Phase One's concern is making enough of the XF bodies for the large number of customers that have pre-ordered them/sans a new back. 

However I guess anything is possible.

Paul


Their other concern is the two month delay on delivering IQ3 80's. Order one now, and you won't get it until the new year.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 01, 2015, 12:39:49 pm
let s bet !
just today annoucement after leica s ,
hasselblad worldwide new prices bundle
h5d 50c cmos back and free 2 lenses....only 20900 euros...
so the war just begun..........
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 01, 2015, 02:06:11 pm
Hi,

I guess that the high price is a part of Phase One's business approach. Essentially, if you lower prices you need to sell more. That means investment in production capability, employing new people.

Having a small market at a high price is a perfectly good business model.

Best regards
Erik

No offense, but you have not been batting close to 100 recently on your rumors.  Remember the 100Mp CMOS just around the corner that someone on this site was testing from Hasselblad?  Where did that go? 

Personally I will be surprised if Phase One lowers their prices on anything.  Maybe the Chinese Stock Market crash has taken away some of the far east business, but overall Phase seems to be able to hold on where they are.  December tends to be the time when they make a price adjustment.

Right now it seems Phase One's concern is making enough of the XF bodies for the large number of customers that have pre-ordered them/sans a new back. 

However I guess anything is possible.

Paul

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 01, 2015, 05:05:48 pm
i don t think the future volume will be enough to go with their actual business model , if they don t get bigger they will decrease.
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 02, 2015, 12:35:58 am
i don t think the future volume will be enough to go with their actual business model , if they don t get bigger they will decrease.
best.

My feeling is they will become an institutional supplier. High list prices are an asset in certain environments where money flows from donor to supplier while passing through the hands of a signatory :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 03, 2015, 10:04:40 am
Hasselblad has announced a bundle offer and trade-in deal for its H5D-50c camera.
hasselblad h5 cmos offer  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bundle Offer:

Pay £16,295 (or £16,995 for Wi-Fi) and get the HCD 28mm lens and the HC 80mm f/2.8 lens for free.

Trade-in offer:

Trade-in from a medium format camera to an H5D-50c (also incl Wi-Fi version) and receive £1,100 discount on any one Hasselblad lens of your choice OR £2,300 discount on any two Hasselblad lenses of your choice.

The offer is valid until 31 December and cannot be used in conjunction with any other discounts or promotions. It's available through your local Hasselblad dealer.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 04, 2015, 12:58:45 pm
hello,
today i tried the new body by phase....
too heavy no chance to sell , totaly anti ergonomic , use one full day to work ,you won t be able to hold it after 3 hours...
non sense, only workable on a tripod !!!
is a dinosaur , chery on the top if you are in love with,
 you will have to wait 2/3 month because they have slow production ???
best.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 04, 2015, 01:06:12 pm
You're trying too hard now.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on September 04, 2015, 04:12:11 pm
hello,
today i tried the new body by phase....
too heavy no chance to sell , totaly anti ergonomic , use one full day to work ,you won t be able to hold it after 3 hours...
non sense, only workable on a tripod !!!
is a dinosaur , chery on the top if you are in love with,
 you will have to wait 2/3 month because they have slow production ???
best.


If you spent the time you use bashing Phase One working out in the gym instead, you might stop your whining. Try it, you'll be able to shoot handheld longer and steadier. And chicks dig it.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: sgilbert on September 04, 2015, 06:37:50 pm
Ciccio,

Thanks for the review of the new Phase One camera.  It's good to hear such a thoughtful and unbiased take on it. 

Steve
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 04, 2015, 08:04:46 pm
hello,
today i tried the new body by phase....
too heavy no chance to sell , totaly anti ergonomic , use one full day to work ,you won t be able to hold it after 3 hours...
non sense, only workable on a tripod !!!
is a dinosaur , chery on the top if you are in love with,
 you will have to wait 2/3 month because they have slow production ???
best.


Ciccio,

 I would say your review is a nice counterpoint to Doug's informercials, more concise and at least as informative :)

 I too couldn't handhold this huge thing for more than a few minutes, I'm not weak, but I'm old. Unfortunately this is also true of most of the MF gear, which seems to be designed for staff photographers of the French Foreign Legion, rather than for the Alpini :)

 However, it may be time to move on to more entertaining topics like the new Leica which at least looks like a more usable camera.


Edmund

 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: narikin on September 07, 2015, 03:32:43 pm
Their other concern is the two month delay on delivering IQ3 80's. Order one now, and you won't get it until the new year.

Very odd. I'd never buy an IQ3 /80 when there are a lot of IQ180 with the same 80mp sensor around, for around $12-15,000.
You get all the good bits - 80mp Dalsa, same screen, USB3 or Firewire tethering, etc, and just miss out on rather dubious 'extras' like iPad reviewing, (tether to a Surface Pro 3 instead, much better!) really l-o-n-g exposures - ok that may matter to a rare few who need long exposure and 80mp rather than 60mp - and easier power on/off. Are these worth $20,000 over an IQ180?!

If you are desperate for 80mp, get the older versions, and save your pennies for the next real sensor upgrade, whenever that is.

Well, that's imho, at least!


Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 07, 2015, 04:32:51 pm
Very odd. I'd never buy an IQ3 /80 when there are a lot of IQ180 with the same 80mp sensor around, for around $12-15,000.
You get all the good bits - 80mp Dalsa, same screen, USB3 or Firewire tethering, etc, and just miss out on rather dubious 'extras' like iPad reviewing, (tether to a Surface Pro 3 instead, much better!) really l-o-n-g exposures - ok that may matter to a rare few who need long exposure and 80mp rather than 60mp - and easier power on/off. Are these worth $20,000 over an IQ180?!

Differences between IQ3 from a dealer and a private-sale used IQ1:
- Wifi editing, camera control, and review
- Exposure Clipping (http://www.getdpi.com/wp/2015/06/the-phase-one-xf-and-iq3-expose-on-exposure/) indicator (different than exposure warning)
- Exposure Heat Map (for zone system style exposure evaluation)
- Sensor Temperature Chart
- Five year warranty
- Loaner during any repair
- Training, Service, and Support from the dealer
- Long exposures up to one hour (rather than 2 minutes)
- Longer battery life when used on XF (due to ability to share the XF power)
- Ability to hot swap batteries without having the camera or back turn off

Whether these are worth the increased price is for each person to decide. I'm just making sure the list of pros is as complete as the cons (increased price).

Most of these are also available with an IQ2 making the + an option worth considering.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Jeffery Salter on September 07, 2015, 10:44:47 pm
too heavy no chance to sell , totaly anti ergonomic , use one full day to work ,you won t be able to hold it after 3 hours...

For those of you who are really interested in the Phase One XF camera (used with an IQ260) here are few brief post shoot notes.

I recently completed a shoot in Arizona where the temp reached over 100 degrees.  I am 5'9 and weight about 155 pounds.  My glove size is medium.  I prefer to use the rear auto focus button with my right thumb and fire the shutter release with the  front grip button with my index finger.  The XF has a small dial near the rear focus button which I use to change the ISO on the fly.  I tend to shoot at ISO 50 to ISO 200.  No problems with ergonomics with me.

My shoot started at 5:30 a.m we wrapped by 11:30.  The assignment was to photograph a golfer.  I shot over 800 frames.  No problem with handholding the camera through out the duration of  shoot.  Off the top of my head my favorites features so far are:

Integrated profoto flash sync. -  I was able to put subject in a bit of shade -- set camera shutter speed on 1/1600 and LS lens at f4.5.  The profoto strobe was set to give a kiss of light.  Perfect.  No misfires.

The camera battery and digital back each use the same type of battery.  I travel with eight of the new 3400 batteries.  Its very convenient  not to sort through different chargers while on the road.

The auto-focus is very snappy.   It has a very bright focus assist light. I was very pleased with the sharpness of the take.  My only issue was with the  Lee Wide angle lens hood slightly blocking the beam.  So I switched to the Normal lee hood (w/ the 80 and 110mm)  

If anyone has any specific field use questions for the XF please ask.  Glad to give a working report.

P.S. I would like to thank Michael for this wonderful forum.  I have met some very positive, creative and outstanding people who just happen to be photographers on this site.  While I was shooting in Arizona I got a chance to hang with Don Libby, a top notch landscape photographer.  Check out his excellent field use blog on the XF.

http://www.ironcreekphotographyblog.com/2015/08/phase-one-xf.html

P.S.S.  I traded in my old DF+ and upgraded to the XF.

(http://www.jefferysalter.com/files/Jeffery_Salter_Golf.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Esben on September 07, 2015, 11:03:59 pm

- Five year warranty
- Loaner during any repair


Hey Doug
I thought the 5 year warranty and the loaner program followed the camera and not the buyer?

Esben
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: aztwang on September 08, 2015, 02:08:10 am
Hasselblad has announced a bundle offer and trade-in deal for its H5D-50c camera.
hasselblad h5 cmos offer  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bundle Offer:

Pay £16,295 (or £16,995 for Wi-Fi) and get the HCD 28mm lens and the HC 80mm f/2.8 lens for free.

Trade-in offer:

Trade-in from a medium format camera to an H5D-50c (also incl Wi-Fi version) and receive £1,100 discount on any one Hasselblad lens of your choice OR £2,300 discount on any two Hasselblad lenses of your choice.

The offer is valid until 31 December and cannot be used in conjunction with any other discounts or promotions. It's available through your local Hasselblad dealer.



Ciccio....I'm sure the new Hassy weighs in at a ton also so why waste your key strokes. Maybe just pick up a point & shoot or an M9 and move on. Seriously are ya'll really bothered by weight??? If it doesn't work for you move on and find something that does work and stop bad mouthing gear that isn't perfect to your liking....I finally understand the meaning behind trollers. BTW thank you Jeffery Salter for your review.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 08, 2015, 02:40:38 am
nice response from the sales team...
good advertorial. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 08, 2015, 03:13:20 am
Thank you Jeffrey for that hands on report. It is refreshing to see posts from people who actually use these things, as rare as they are in this forum.

The troll has been reported to the mods. Maybe they will do something about it. Not getting my hopes up.

Ciccio....I'm sure the new Hassy weighs in at a ton also so why waste your key strokes. Maybe just pick up a point & shoot or an M9 and move on. Seriously are ya'll really bothered by weight??? If it doesn't work for you move on and find something that does work and stop bad mouthing gear that isn't perfect to your liking....


His paymasters won't like that.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: ciccio on September 08, 2015, 05:55:26 am
proud to be a troll  ;D ;D ;D
and owner of p 45 + and iq 180
sorry trolls.....
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: landscapephoto on September 08, 2015, 01:30:58 pm
I'm sure the new Hassy weighs in at a ton also so why waste your key strokes.

The XF with prism and back but no lens weights 2085g (not sure if the batteries are included in that weight).
The H5D with battery, prism and back without lens weights 1815g.

The Phase camera is indeed a bit heavier, but that is not really significant.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 08, 2015, 01:46:56 pm
proud to be a troll  ;D ;D ;D
and owner of p 45 + and iq 180
sorry trolls.....

Ciccio,

 Luckily, most members of this forum are above average in artistic ability, intelligence and courtesy. This allows us to make allowance for the others :)
 I think the Phase XF system is a robust high-performance photographic tool for institutions and people with large budgets, marketed through a high-margin dealer program. The price reflects the need for well-connected intermediaries and the patience which is necessary to deal with institutional buyers, who need persuasion and handholding, and a sense of professional exclusivity.  It is a system which marketing strategy has positioned as high above all others as a Rolls Royce corporate limousine  towers over mere personal transportation like Ferraris. We should not compare it on price, ergonomics, features or lens quality with cheap and common tools like the Leica S series, Pentax or Hasselblad whose price is a mere fraction of the Phase, as these inferior products are intended to be bought or used by "normal" individuals.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: AreBee on September 08, 2015, 02:10:26 pm
ciccio

Quote
proud to be a troll  ;D ;D ;D
and owner of p 45 + and iq 180
sorry trolls...

Apparently you have forgotten that you also own an IQ160 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100885.msg838994#msg838994)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 08, 2015, 02:12:27 pm
ciccio

Apparently you have forgotten that you also own an IQ160 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100885.msg838994#msg838994)

Lol, busted.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on September 08, 2015, 10:44:45 pm
Lol, busted.

Yea, if you are gonna troll at least troll right jajajaja. Busted indeed.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: DucatiTerminator on September 09, 2015, 11:31:38 am
Ciccio,

 Luckily, most members of this forum are above average in artistic ability, intelligence and courtesy. This allows us to make allowance for the others :)
 I think the Phase XF system is a robust high-performance photographic tool for institutions and people with large budgets, marketed through a high-margin dealer program. The price reflects the need for well-connected intermediaries and the patience which is necessary to deal with institutional buyers, who need persuasion and handholding, and a sense of professional exclusivity.  It is a system which marketing strategy has positioned as high above all others as a Rolls Royce corporate limousine  towers over mere personal transportation like Ferraris. We should not compare it on price, ergonomics, features or lens quality with cheap and common tools like the Leica S series, Pentax or Hasselblad whose price is a mere fraction of the Phase, as these inferior products are intended to be bought or used by "normal" individuals.

Edmund

Oh Putain! I'm buying one for the wrong reasons. :(

I'm actually buying one and convincing all of my well-heeled friends to buy them too to make sure that Phase stays in business as long as possible. Heaven forbid anything happen to them -- what else would you and ciccio have left to talk about?  ::)
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Manoli on September 09, 2015, 11:51:27 am
I'm actually buying one and convincing all of my well-heeled friends to buy them too to make sure that Phase stays in business as long as possible. Heaven forbid anything happen to them --

Well, a saviour by the name of Silver Fleet Capital beat you to it - so your well heeled friends can now enjoy the fruits of SFC's divine intervention.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 09, 2015, 12:45:19 pm
Well, a saviour by the name of Silver Fleet Capital beat you to it - so your well heeled friends can now enjoy the fruits of SFC's divine intervention.

Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Manoli on September 09, 2015, 01:25:08 pm
Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.

Bollocks.

What you, yet again, conveniently forget to mention is that their rising profit and revenue was outpaced by their rising short-term liabilities. Their liquidity ratio showed that they had less than a year before they would have had to declare the Danish equivalent of Chapter 11.  It was discussed at length in this earlier thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=87363.0).

Based on figures from www.proff.dk/firma/phase-one-as/frederiksberg/fremstilling-af-optiske-instrumenter-og-fotografisk-udstyr/13477705-2/ , though their net operating profit and return on assets looked good, the liquidity ratio** did not.  ( ** the liquidity ratio expresses the company's ability to meet its short-term financial obligations, and is calculated as receivables plus cash as a percentage of short-term debt.)

The original press release stated, clearly

quote
Silverfleet Capital will acquire a majority investment in Phase One from the existing management team, who will reinvest a significant amount of money for a substantial minority stake. Bank financing for the transaction is to be provided by Nordea.
unquote

Bottom line is that SFC are now the majority shareholder with a circa 60% shareholding. Raising equity ( or 'investing' to use your euphemism) is one thing, selling a majority stake quite another.   We've been through this before and no desire to go down it again.  It's great that SFC took control,  PhaseOne seem a whole lot better for it - and long may it continue.

But leave the spin out.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 09, 2015, 02:01:25 pm

It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.

Sky's not falling. It's an institutional luxury product - I'd call it the Humvee of cameras.

Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 09, 2015, 02:27:51 pm
I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many on forums. Go back and read the threads when the 1D launched, or the 1DsIII, or the 5DII, or the D800, or the A7R, or the 645D, or the 645Z. Then go look at the chart of Phase One's revenue and profit. If you don't see the humor...

And no, Edmund, these are not "institutional luxury products."   ::). We do sell to institutions, especially aerial mapping companies (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iXA_camera_system.aspx) and places doing cultural heritage digitization (http://dtdch.com/our-clients/) (which is true of every camera brand as far as I can see), but the vast majority of sales are to individuals.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 09, 2015, 02:30:44 pm
I can think of 12 Phase One owners who certainly do not qualify as an Institution*.



*One might qualify as a small chapel based on his waistline, but he's working on it!
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Manoli on September 09, 2015, 07:10:03 pm
I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many ...

Oh, but you do and you continue to do so.
So let me help try to cure your selective amnesia by attaching below a screen shot of the 'public record' accounts (http://www.proff.dk/regnskab/phase-one-as/frederiksberg/fremstillingsvirksomhed/13477705-2/) you refer to and, by way of explanation, quote an earlier post (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=93593.msg763714#msg763714):

<<
… off topic, but briefly: both this link and the Silverfleet release (http://www.silverfleetcapital.com/media-centre/news/silverfleet-capital-to-invest-in-phase-one-as/) are worth reading. The key point related to the liquidity ratio (cash plus receivables as a percentage of short-term debt). In 2012, it was about 75% and declining. Today, after the buy-out, it's at a much healthier 104%,  predictably. In other words, they're covered on a short-term annual basis for at least the next 12 months. With return on equity and profits up ( primarily due to the reduction in debt) the situation is much improved and changed - as is the ownership.

The dealers never missed an opportunity to regale you with the tired mantra of 'increasing sales, increasing profits' etc etc - was (and is) true. What they didn't say though (and possibly didn't know or suspect) was that these were not enough to cover the ever increasing short term debt, hence the crisis. Continuing to refer to it as  'aggressive expansion financing' coupled with claims that 'PhaseOne had been both profitable and growing since 2008' bordered on disinformation.

The Press release was suitably ambiguous, but was clear in one thing - the proceeds of the sale were to be reinvested in the company 'for a minority stake'. They were, the debt much reduced, hence the improved financial outlook today.

It was a straightforward 'buyout'. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, just ask them one simple question : " In what way did selling a 60% stake, ceding both control and ownership, benefit the company and its shareholders as opposed to a simple capital increase - IPO or bond issue ? "

ps
Liquidity Ratio in Danish is Likviditetsgrad.
>>

Doug,

Today, the liquidity ratio is up to 175%, from the 104% quoted a year earlier. So even better. PhaseOne today is a rejuvenated company - everything from the XF rollout to the strategic alliances smacks of professionalism - a far cry from the Phase of a few years ago. The pricing strategy may have stayed the same but at least now there seems to be cohesion which wasn't always evident before.

Time to drop the spin and the denial - you don't need it anymore.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 10, 2015, 12:27:38 am
I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many on forums. Go back and read the threads when the 1D launched, or the 1DsIII, or the 5DII, or the D800, or the A7R, or the 645D, or the 645Z. Then go look at the chart of Phase One's revenue and profit. If you don't see the humor...

And no, Edmund, these are not "institutional luxury products."   ::). We do sell to institutions, especially aerial mapping companies (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iXA_camera_system.aspx) and places doing cultural heritage digitization (http://dtdch.com/our-clients/) (which is true of every camera brand as far as I can see), but the vast majority of sales are to individuals.

Doug,

 You forgot to tell us how many you sell to institutionalised individuals :)

 I think that if Brand X is more expensive than Leica, it qualifies as a luxury brand.


Edmund
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: torger on September 10, 2015, 03:38:56 am
I think it requires more than just being expensive to qualify as luxury.

You can see it in the marketing, and in the users. If professionals at large stop using the product, and instead individuals which likes bling buys them, then it's luxury.

The Phase One 645 and Hasselblad 645 systems are still foremost studio pro systems. Leica's M product has largely moved into luxury space, while the S remains a pro system, and they actually adjusted the price down.

The Phase One A series looks more like a luxury product. Common with those is that they are often largely impractical with modern working pro eyes, like Lecia's M rangefinder and the Phase One A series based around Alpa's least flexible but most slick-looking body.

I think Phase, Hassy, Leica will continue to try sell to both markets, professionals and private individuals that want luxury. And of course also those individuals that want their professional systems.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: yashima on September 10, 2015, 05:11:11 am

Definitely. There are industrial vehicles that are alot more expensive than your Lambo but they are not luxury.

Anything purchased for the purpose of regular usage and for making return on your money is not luxury. So its an individual's perspective.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 10, 2015, 05:34:45 am
Can't believe you guys are trying to rationally disprove what is clearly a troll post.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Manoli on September 10, 2015, 05:58:54 am
Can't believe you guys are trying to rationally disprove what is clearly a troll post.

Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.

Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: synn on September 10, 2015, 06:05:43 am
Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.



How adorable. You know quite well what post I am referring to.
The contributions of all you non MF users in the MF forum are truly invaluable. No, really.
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: eronald on September 10, 2015, 08:37:57 am
Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.



Doug's sales operation financials are doubtless very solid :)

I think Phase One vendor is now a bit like real estate dealer - you just need to move a few units a year per employee. It's a far call from the high pressure environment at B&H where a guy sits behind a counter, makes a sale and shouts "Next!".

Edmund

Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 10, 2015, 10:36:16 am
Doug's sales operation financials are doubtless very solid :)

I think Phase One vendor is now a bit like real estate dealer - you just need to move a few units a year per employee. It's a far call from the high pressure environment at B&H where a guy sits behind a counter, makes a sale and shouts "Next!".

Edmund



Depends on the real estate dealer; many of those too are always shooting "next!" 

As someone in sales, and if you own/run a business you are in sales, I would much rather prefer the former of your description.  Relying on a high volume low price business plan is a rat race; not very fun at all.  Maintaining a small but appropriate number of clients allows you to work at a higher level and not feel like you are always under the gun.  (Of course there are problems here, like making sure not any one of your clients provides a high percentage of your revenue, since doing so would put you at the whim of that one client.) 

But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going.  I would think many would have other things to do with their life, like creating images, then to be concerned with financials and value depreciation of a company and its products.  Lets get a life people, and move on. 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: sgilbert on September 10, 2015, 10:07:32 pm
"But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going."

Really?  This is The Luminous Landscape."  It's known for just this kind of thread.  If it dies down for a while, a troll will appear to revive it, and people will try to argue with him, and so it goes. 
Title: Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
Post by: Ken R on September 11, 2015, 09:53:13 am
"But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going."

Really?  This is The Luminous Landscape."  It's known for just this kind of thread.  If it dies down for a while, a troll will appear to revive it, and people will try to argue with him, and so it goes. 

Exactly. There are just too many trolls with too much time.