final judgment on Lieca Monochrom

[Allen Bourgeois]

Where's pg 2?

If Pg 2 stays in hiding to Bart it was a typo now fixed and thanks for pointing it out (should have been B&W film NOT color film typing not my strong suit)

I find that most that have spent any real time with an MM will tell you in a final judgement it is the perfect tool for those that love a rangefinder and shoot digital B&W. There are many others that feel the same way I do thus the new upgraded MM from Leica. No demand, no new camera. Most of the people slamming the MM have never shot a frame with it. If you don't think it's valid don't buy one but it is a REAL alternative to everything else out there. Great to have that choice and kudos to Leica for giving us that choice.

An old film guy Ralph Gibson was not a fan of digital until he got his hands on an MM. Shot an entire body of work with one and released a book with those images that he shot with it. So I would say in his judgement it is a great tool also.

[BrianVS]

I could open Page 2 with Explorer, but not with Chrome.

Some bizarre html I am sure!

[Allen Bourgeois]

Brian, I still have nothing. Did I miss anything?

[BrianVS]

You cannot view the page when Logged into the Site!

Logged out, you can read it. Something is very strange in the most with a link to an image by alifatemi.

[Telecaster]

Page 2 is fritzed on my iPad while logged in here with Mobile Safari too. Just as well…it's mostly the usual combination of misunderstanding resulting from failure to communicate clearly and, worse, refusal to comprehend that one's own personal preferences aren't universal mandates.

I like rangefinders. I like using CFA-less sensors, and would love to have a camera containing one. Preferably a rangefinder, though I can manage otherwise so long as I can properly zone focus. I like using red, orange, green, etc. filters in front of monochrome imagers (film or electronic). YMMV…use what you like as you like. Be creative and have fun.

-Dave-

[jjj]

Page 2 is fritzed on my iPad while logged in here with Mobile Safari too. Just as well…it's mostly the usual combination of misunderstanding resulting from failure to communicate clearly and, worse, refusal to comprehend that one's own personal preferences aren't universal mandates.
I like rangefinders. I like using CFA-less sensors, and would love to have a camera containing one. Preferably a rangefinder, though I can manage otherwise so long as I can properly zone focus. I like using red, orange, green, etc. filters in front of monochrome imagers (film or electronic). YMMV…use what you like as you like. Be creative and have fun.

There's certainly a huge amount of defensiveness and silly accusations about hating/slamming the MM from those who are in favour of the MM towards those for whom it's not the right tool. Heaven forbid we point out that like all cameras, it has drawbacks.
Never understood why people get upset because others like to use different cameras to themselves or insist that their camera is THE camera to use for blah, blah, blah.

[Allen Bourgeois]

Absolutely and it certainly has a lot of drawbacks to those looking for all the stuff that many of us are glad the MM doesn't have. Then don't buy the MM and use the tool that is right for you but the bottom line is the MM was a success. And everyone I know that owns one or has spent any real time with one agrees. I see a lot of folks that have never even had one on their hands talking a lot about this and that. The bigger question is why is it so important to you to prove that other cameras are better than what is perfect for me and others?

[jjj]

The bigger question is why is it so important to you to prove that other cameras are better than what is perfect for me and others?

I haven't tried to prove anything about other cameras. Stating it is crippled for my needs has no bearing on how you use it. Don't be so very defensive.

Anyway if is so wonderful, show us some photos that demonstrate just how good it is.

[Allen Bourgeois]

You've stated that you don't like one big reason that many of us like the MM. You've said you don't like rangefinders. So if you don't like rangefinders and have not shot with an MM, that would be like me going into a thread about a camera that I would never buy and have never shot with trying to convince those there that the tool they have been using and getting results with that exceeds their expectations is not the right tool for them.

Just go to the MM thread here in this section.

I had a large one person exhibit in April of 2013 here in Chicago with 35 images almost all shot with the MM. Was selected to be in a juried show in New York's Soho Gallery last year. 2600 submittied images on 42 selected for the exhibit and the image was shot with an MM. The opening was in July of last year. Was selected to have a one person exhibit at a gallery in the gallery district here in Chicago this past March. Almost all shot with the MM. 4 red dots.....Not bad I'd say.

Almost won a Leica MM and $20,000 with this floral. Receive a Mark of Excellence award only 24 were awarded out of 2000+ entries. Scroll down to the floral.
http://www.i-shot-it.com/photo-competition-results.php?pcid=515c1bef18d04


Write up/interview of the March exhibit
http://tamarkincamera.tumblr.com/post/114046684541/rangefinder-artist-interview-allen-bourgeois

Wanted to also say that there is more. 

[jjj]

You've stated that you don't like one big reason that many of us like the MM. You've said you don't like rangefinders. So if you don't like rangefinders and have not shot with an MM, that would be like me going into a thread about a camera that I would never buy and have never shot with trying to convince those there that the tool they have been using and getting results with that exceeds their expectations is not the right tool for them.

No you are being very defensive and assuming things that are not the case. I looked at thread because a B+W specific camera was intriguing as I love to shoot B+W. But on discovering the inability to modify B+W tonality in post as you can with colour raw, I realised that was a serious and very limiting gotcha. It would mean going back to an inferior workflow I used last century.
As for rangefinders that was not a consideration until someone brought it up as being so superior. They are overrated in my view and I prefer to use more capable [again in my view] tools. There is zero advantages to using a rangefinder in my experience and lots of positives to other viewfinders. All have drawbacks.

That's for the link to photos, I shall go and peruse.

[Allen Bourgeois]

I'm not getting defensive. Just wondering why someone that admittedly doesn't like rangefinders would worry enough to come into a camera thread that is about a rangefinders and tell everyone all the limitations that camera has to them. You can control tone, density and contrast. I do it all the time. It does take some knowledge and practice to get good at. You have to see some of it before you shoot it. I see in B&W. I know what filters to use to get the effect I am looking for. Experience with film and now the MM. THis camera is in now way limiting to me. In fact it is just the opposite for me.

I love rangefinders and I love a dedicated B&W camera. And there are more like me thus the success of the original MM.  

You can modify tone exactly the way you could with B&W film and it works quite well You just have to see and filter for it when you shoot it.

And if you have not spent any real time with one how do you know? I would never comment on a camera I have never shot with.

Also this camera is probably not for you for many reasons. And probably some of the cameras you prefer are not for me. Great to have choices.

Wanted to add if you want to tone it to say sepia or make it look like a van dyke brown or cyan o type you can save the file when you convert from raw/dng to RGB tiff and use PS to color tone.

[jjj]

I'm not getting defensive.

You certainly have been.

Just wondering why someone that admittedly doesn't like rangefinders would worry enough to come into a camera threat that is about a rangefinders and tell everyone all the limitations that camera has to them.

Only mentioned because someone brought rangefinders up Vs other viewfinders in a sneering manner. To repeat myself for possibly the third time, I was interested in the B+W sensor, the camera form factor was irrelevant.

You can control tone, density and contrast. I do it all the time. It does take some knowledge and practice to get good at.

But you cannot alter tonal balance between colours in the raw file - channel mixing. A very useful attribute, very handy for skin tones for example.

You can modify tone exactly the way you could with B&W film and it works quite well You just have to see and filter for it when you shoot it.

And just like with B+W film it is a pain in the posterior to do and not always practical. Particularly for street photography, what people say this sort of camera is good at.
BTW, I am not saying the camera is bad just that it is limited in an old fashioned way. Limits can be good, sometimes they are hobbling. It's like shooting colour film with a white balance that cannot be changed. Yes filters can be used for correcting white balance, but they are not able to cope with mixed temperature lighting. Much better to shoot raw and get WB right in post.

And if you have not spent any real time with one how do you know? I would never comment on a camera I have never shot with.

But I haven't commented on the camera itself, the problems of not being able to channel mix with a B+W sensor yes. Anyway saying this thread is only for Leica users is rather snobbish, which is sadly an atribute I associate with Leica shooters because of well..their snobby behaviour.   
When I used PCs I kept up to date with Apple gear and usually knew more about how to use them than Apple owners did [and vice versa now]. I like to keep abreast of all cameras/computers not just the ones I own. That way I can have a more balanced, less partisan view of things.

[alifatemi]

I can't see page 2 while logged in. I reported this to admin hope they can fix it. Also liked to upload a picture several times taken by new MM but can't.

Anyhow, is it possible to distinguish between MM picture and another camera in blind test?

[jjj]

This sequence demos the usefulness of channel mixing.
Left and middle shots have same settings bar colour channels, the left one has flat setting on colour channels.
Shot on right is an attempt to get shot looking as punchy like middle version without using channel mixing. But it looks awful, mainly as I cannot control skin tones separately from other colours. 

[Allen Bourgeois]

Here's where you keep missing the point. Some of us prefer a pure B&W approach. You seem not to so this or any truly B&W dedicated camera is clearly not for you but that doesn't mean others can't appreciate that. THis camera sold well enough for Leica to just put out an upgraded model. So just because I love the camera and can defend my position doesn't that is defensive. I have no desire to try and convince you that this camera is for you but it is for many. That is still my point and sale figures would back that up and most of the ones I know that have MMs are also very seasoned B&W photographers that clearly prefer a dedicated B&W camera. If you don't there are certainly plenty of other opinions other options for you out there.

I have no problems controlling skin tones. I converted like you for years until the MM came out and after just a few hours of shooting with it I was sold.

[jjj]

I can't see page 2 while logged in. I reported this to admin hope they can fix it. Also liked to upload a picture several times taken by new MM but can't.

Check file size and type as forum has limits as to how big and what kind of image you upload.

Anyhow, is it possible to distinguish between MM picture and another camera in blind test?

Be an interesting and tricky challenge. But best done by viewing some good prints. Areas where I think the MM would be strongest wouldn't lend themselves to viewing on screen.

[Allen Bourgeois]

It's very hard to make real judgements on a monitor. The prints are spectacular.

I get out several times a week on the streets and I have no problems and find it to be the best digital B&W tool for that job that I have used and this ain't my first rodeo.

I know my B&W digital print quality has improved but it is more than that. For me it is a more intuitive way to work. To find equipment that matches the way you see and work is so valuable and that is exactly what this is for me.

[alifatemi]

my file for upload is just 1.8Mb

[alifatemi]

It's very hard to make real judgements on a monitor. The prints are spectacular.

they are spectacular yes but what about blind test on print? have you done the test for yourself yet and see if someone else can recognize the deference on prints?

[jjj]

Here's where you keep missing the point. Some of us prefer a pure B&W approach.

There you go with the snobbery again. There nothing more 'pure' [whatever that is meant to mean] about a monochrome sensor than a normal raw file, I can choose never to see any colour in my photos when using that method.

You seem not to so this or any truly B&W dedicated camera is clearly not for you but that doesn't mean others can't appreciate that.

Never said it wasn't for others. That's your defensive misinterpretation thinking otherwise.

So just because I love the camera and can defend my position doesn't that is defensive.

The manner in which you do it, is what makes your postings defensive. Besides, you haven't once addressed my point about the limitations of not being able to channel mix, so you have defended nothing as that's my only issue with the B+W sensor.

I have no problems controlling skin tones...

Didn't say you did. Changing them or other tones independently of other colours however is not an option with a B+W sensor. Very useful as shown in demo image above.