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Author Topic: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom  (Read 17845 times)

jjj

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2015, 10:05:40 pm »

they are spectacular yes but what about blind test on print? have you done the test for yourself yet and see if someone else can recognize the deference on prints?
You'll need to shoot the exact same image and processed/printed as best you can with different cameras.
But even then like with film stock, a lower quality film may make for a better rendering of the image. So 'best' can be an ethereal concept.
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Allen Bourgeois

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2015, 10:17:10 pm »

LoL I was wondering when the snob thing was going to raise it's ugly head. I never said one was better than the other. I just stated what was better for me and many others. So if you prefer yoru approach your a snob PLEASE... Funny how the name calling and personal attacks always sneak into it when on the web.

Use whatever cameras you like but back to topic the judgement on the MM is it is a great camera. Whether it is the camera for you can only be answered by you.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 10:19:03 pm by Allen Bourgeois »
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BrianVS

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2015, 10:34:08 pm »

No snobbery involved- compared with most color digital cameras on the market, a monochrome sensor will give a higher resolution image free of artifacts introduced by color mosaic filters. Color filtration is done in-camera, just as you would do for black and white film. Nikon and Phase One both offer monochrome cameras.

The Foveon sensor is also free of artifacts introduced by color mosaic filters. Due to the architecture of the sensor it is not as efficient for low-light. Sigma currently owns the technology, and has their own proprietary SLR mount. That has limited the use of Foveon sensor technology. I'd love to have one in F-Mount. Polaroid marketed a Digital point and shoot camera using the Foveon sensor years ago. It was probably premature on the market, had issues.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 10:37:11 pm by BrianVS »
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Allen Bourgeois

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2015, 10:40:04 pm »

they are spectacular yes but what about blind test on print? have you done the test for yourself yet and see if someone else can recognize the deference on prints?

Some I can, some I can't, just depends. It gets a bit more noticeable at high ISO. For me I like the look of the high ISO noise from the MM over the noise from most other digital cameras. It looks a bit more like film grain than digital noise.

I posted this earlier but heres a better look at the files and some words other than mine.
http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/27/leica-m-monochrom-vs-d800e/

It is a different shooting experience and only better if it is better for the photographer shooting with it. My advice is find stuff that works for each individual. We are all different but I keep repeating this because it is true. THe MM is a real alternative to everything else out there at the moment. No one but you can decide if that is a difference that is right for you. My advice is try one. You may hate it. many do not like shooting with rangefinders and there is nothing wrong with that. Many don't want to give up color or the ability to convert. There is also nothing wrong with that approach either if thats what is working.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 10:45:57 pm by Allen Bourgeois »
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Telecaster

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Re: final judgment on Leica Monochrom
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2015, 12:39:39 am »

I'd like to see Foveon tech get developed further. I've seen great results, color and b&w, from it but IMO it requires medium format technique—camera on tripod, base ISO, precise exposure—to make it sing, whereas my own use of b&w is better served by something more flexible. I am sometimes tempted by those Merrill cameras, though…

-Dave-
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BrianVS

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2015, 08:37:01 am »

The Foveon sensor is still actively being developed- I would like to see it available with more SLR mounts. It is based on an amazing principle, the spectrum of light being absorbed at different layers of the silicon detector. That also is going to increase noise at higher ISO, and limits "Saturation count" for individual colors. The geometry is interesting, but does not lend itself to lens mounts that are close to the image plane.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2015, 08:49:19 am »

The Foveon sensor is still actively being developed- I would like to see it available with more SLR mounts. It is based on an amazing principle, the spectrum of light being absorbed at different layers of the silicon detector. That also is going to increase noise at higher ISO, and limits "Saturation count" for individual colors. The geometry is interesting, but does not lend itself to lens mounts that are close to the image plane.

Correct. It requires the light rays to strike the sensor rather perpendicular, which is also much harder on larger sensors. The larger the sensor, and the less retrofocus design the lens has for shorter focal lengths, the more oblique the path of light will be. And since the travel distance through silicon functions as an approximate wavelength indication, the corners will see the same color of light different than the optical  center does. Theoretically the sensor output can be calibrated for that, but that will be pretty hard to do well in practice, and even harder as the size increases.

Cheers,
Bart
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BrianVS

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2015, 08:58:00 am »

The offset Microlens technology developed by Kodak for the Leica M8 and M9 would lend itself to a full-frame Foveon sensor. I can use a Jupiter-12 3.5cm F2.8 with the M9, lens detection turned off, and get very little vignetting at the corners. The J-12 is a Zeiss Biogon copy, but in Leica mount. The rear element is very close to the sensor. Mine has Zeiss glass in it from 1943 (based on internal SN), $60 on Ebay.

I suspect that On Semi now holds the Kodak patents; would be worth Sigma looking into licensing it.
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JimAscher

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2015, 01:53:43 am »

...I'd love to have one in F-Mount....

I have the Sigma SD15 and readily converted it to accept Nikon F-Mount lenses using the excellent SigmaCumLaude conversion kit.  (I believe they have one available also for the SD1.)   
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BrianVS

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2015, 07:15:54 am »

That sounds interesting- I need to look those up!
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jjj

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Re: final judgment on Lieca Monochrom
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2015, 08:01:06 am »

LoL I was wondering when the snob thing was going to raise it's ugly head. I never said one was better than the other. I just stated what was better for me and many others.
And did so in a snobbish manner. Nothing to do with whatever choice one makes.
Quote
So if you prefer yoru approach your a snob PLEASE...
No, only when you use language that is snobby.
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