final judgment on Lieca Monochrom

[NancyP]

Try the Foveon sensor cameras for B and W conversion.

[Allen Bourgeois]

I don't follow. I've been a (certified) professional photographer for almost 37 years myself, and I've never used the same filters for B/W as I did for color, except maybe a UV filter. Maybe you intended to say something different, which got lost due to translation?

 [Sorry Brett typo I meant to say B&W film.

There has been a lot of technical info written about the MM and it's out there if you are really interested. I personally don't know a B&W photographer that has spent any real quality time with an MM that doesn't prefer it over color conversions. Most of hte hate I read is usually by those that have never shot with one let alone spend a few weeks with it. And it is still the only FF 135 format rangefinder that is a dedicated B&W camera. There are plenty of others out there that feel as I do. If that was not true Leica would have never done a newer version. Plus the idea of B&W being the vision not an after thought.

So the final judgement of someone that actually uses one is I like the original so much that I have no plans of upgrading. Over 2 1/2 years with mine and 30K plus frames I will shoot with it until it dies and Leica no longer repairs it.

[lowep]

I am enjoying the toy version of what you serious guys are talking about after just figuring out I can set my $400 Pentax K5 to RAW+ and set the jpeg filter to B&W; so I get TTL OVF & B&W live view, or a B&W review image from the jpeg and a histogram on my LCD, and a RAW color image plus B&W jpeg on my SD card for post processing however I want.

[Allen Bourgeois]

And I'm sure the K5 is a wonderful camera but no matter how hard ya try and slice it is not a rangefinder. I like the MM for most of the things it doesn't have. No video, no live view, no EVF no FPS to mention. And I can shoot B&W JPGs with my Canons. It is not the same.

There is not a better digital tool for B&W street photography than the Leica MM. Final judgement. Rangefinders aren't for everyone and a B&W only one is hard for some to get and that's OK. It is really nice to have choices. And the MM is a real choice over all the others out there.

[lowep]

I had an Epson RD1 but sold it when I realized what came out of it was not very different to a Minolta 5D I had at the time, so I agree it depends a lot on personal preference. It did take me a while to forget about all the other switches on the Pentax.

[Manoli]

Try the Foveon sensor cameras for B and W conversion.

Yes, we know! Though actually Sean Reid's review was a comparison in using the blue channel conversion only v the MM. You can also add M9's v Fuji X and a multitude of other cams ..

You're missing the point, though - none of the comparisons,tests,reviews have, AFAIK, have actually said that any of the alternates produce better IQ than the MM. None.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

You're missing the point, though - none of the comparisons,tests,reviews have, AFAIK, have actually said that any of the alternates produce better IQ than the MM. None.

Other than due to specific lens quality differences, I think that almost nobody can point out the MM images in a blind test. It's the same nonsense as CCD versus CMOS color. Postprocessing makes all the difference, that's also why e.g. Ansel Adams spent such an amount of time exposing and processing to the Zone System.

Cheers,
Bart

[Allen Bourgeois]

It was a trio for Adams reflected by three books he wrote.

The Camera (What you start with and in his case it was mostly a large format view camera to give him the control and better image quality that you get with those big negatives. The proper instrument)

The Negative (writing the score as he would refer to it as. Using the zone system to get the right tonal information so he could move on to the next step.)

The Print (performing the score as he would say. Without the other two pieces working in seamlessly together this part becomes far more difficult to control)

I see a difference with the MM where it really counts in several areas. Operation, how it renders and ultimately what i can get in my final prints.

Now that is coming from someone that has used one extensively. From some of the comments I am reading I see there is little real first hand knowledge.

For street work a rangefinder is the perfect camera as a view camera is for B&W zone system.

And again I know a lot of folks through forums and personally that have them and folks that have shot extensively with them. Most were very experienced B&W photographers and they almost all share my opinion. This camera is not for the masses and if you want a camera that shoots color then this is clearly not the camera for you but for those of us that are B&W street photographers it is an AMAZING tool that is not meant for the masses and the ones that want a camera that trys to do everything.

[Telecaster]

Your prayers are answered:

http://www.achromaticplus.com/Achromatic_Plus/Achromatic+.html

I neglected to mention the desire for compactness.  

Also…for me a monochrome camera doesn't have to be a rangefinder but it does have to support zone focusing to precise distances.

-Dave-

[jjj]

Sorry. The use of "retrograde" tripped my annoyance wire.

Except Petrus did not use the word, I did.
I stand by the use of the word too. Why? Channel mixing to me is an essential part of my B+W, so to go back to an old way of shooting and lose a big part of the flexibility of shooting raw is a backwards step in my view. The thought of a pure B+W camera piqued my interest until I realised the serious drawback involved.

[jjj]

And I'm sure the K5 is a wonderful camera but no matter how hard ya try and slice it is not a rangefinder.

In my view that is a plus, not a minus.

I like the MM for most of the things it doesn't have. No video, no live view, no EVF no FPS to mention. And I can shoot B&W JPGs with my Canons. It is not the same.

Indeed, those features make the camera far more versatile. 

There is not a better digital tool for B&W street photography than the Leica MM. Final judgement. Rangefinders aren't for everyone and a B&W only one is hard for some to get and that's OK. It is really nice to have choices. And the MM is a real choice over all the others out there.

In your opinion. Not in others.
Never seen the attraction of rangefinders myself. And yes I have used them, in fact my first camera was a rangefinder and I used one as my street camera for years. I would never go back though, just like I would never go back to film. Fine in their time, but modern options are far more useful I find.

[Allen Bourgeois]

And thats you. The judgement on the MM by those that have used them is great. So good Leica just did another one and I'm sure it will sell well. I don't understand why folks that admit they don't like rangefinders are concerned at all. This camera is a REAL alternative to everything else out there and as long as there are photographers that love rangefinders and B&W street photography this camera will have a place for those that like real choices. No need to worry, you still have the cameras you like out there to.

Is shoot raw to...

[jjj]

I would have been interested in a monochrome sensor is a more usable body as I love B+W photography, but now I realise how limited such a sensor is to use, I've gone off the idea.
As for users extolling their virtues, of course they will. They are a very expensive product and the more expensive something is, the less likely people are to admit to any defects of their purchase.

[Allen Bourgeois]

Again usable body to you. I love the MM and find it VERY USABLE. It is a camera that just gets out of my way when I create. There are many, many more that agree with me. If there wasn't a demand there wouldn't be a new model. ANd it is not limiting me in anyway because it is a good match for the way I see. I find it very freeing to have that match. Just the opposite of limiting.

[BrianVS]

If you want the highest fidelity monochrome image, use a monochrome sensor. Leica and Nikon offer 35mm equivalent, full-frame cameras; Phase One offers a medium format sensor. The latter makes Leica look inexpensive; the Nikon is a microscope camera using a monochrome version of the sensor in the D4 and Df. Hopefully, Nikon will offer a monochrome F-Mount camera, most of the work has been done. Until then Leica is the only reasonably priced choice.

[Allen Bourgeois]

Agree Brian and the only rangefinder.

[Malina DZ]

I mean lets forget about viewfinder pros/cons compare to SLR, and lets forget about price we gonna pay for monochrome, can't we really reach the same file quality of monochrome with really good SLR with best chosen lenses available and also after in post production turning the files to B&W and tuning them accourdingly?

Do yourself a favor and investigate Foveon sensor based cameras. B&W images out of Merrills are of a very high accutance. At base ISO levels DP2M is close to MM+50/2APO files by most aspects of IQ. With SD1 you can use excellent fast glass like 24/1.4, 35/1.4 & 50/1.4 Art. Color filters will work with Merrills in a similar fashion to B&W film.


Sigma DP2 Merrill

[Allen Bourgeois]

Maybe you should start a thread on foveon sensors or better yet spend some quality time with an MM. The thread is about the final judgement on MMs and what actual users think about it.

And it's not FF and again it is not a rangefinder.

[alifatemi]

just to cheer you up, here is a picture I took from my friend in Lieca store on Paris, 10 days ago, with very new CMOS mm which was there as demo; Just a bit post processing in LR:

[BrianVS]

"Something strange" with the page load for page 2!

Just to say, there is no "Final Judgement" on this camera, it continues to sell well; Leica has brought out a new model monochrome camera; and Phase One has brought out a new 60MPixel Monochrome camera using a new CCD from Dalsa.

Dalsa also makes a 24x36 32MPixel CCD. I would like to see that used in a new camera.