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Author Topic: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing  (Read 40052 times)

Isaac

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2015, 02:53:32 pm »

Let's say next year Garbage calls Pope and tells him they wanted to hire him again for their new album and all the still photos they needed for a video as well.

Let's say next year Garbage calls Pope and tells him they want him to work for their new album and all the still photos they needed for a video as well, for credit.
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MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2015, 02:57:45 pm »

and you

1) changing the subject - from inadequate reaction of the photog in question, because no laws were broken

2) being "completely baseless and meaningles" is not illegal and is not a reason to be behave like that photog did

3) reasonable person can consider credit valuable, even that is an obligation - the fact is that every "model" with the release signed are not all paid is good enough

4) as this photog based his outburst not on anything being illegal, but on something being "not acceptable" for him then you are OK with the said reaction from your models too.



Slobodan is right; you're really grasping at straws. Nobody said the band did anything illegal. This has nothing to do with model releases. The reaction from the photographer hardly qualifies as an 'outburst.' These are all red herrings.
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2015, 10:12:19 am »

Quote
Let's say next year Garbage calls Pope and tells him they want him to work for their new album and all the still photos they needed for a video as well, for credit.

No one including Pope ever suggested in any way that anyone ever asked a photographer to work on a new project like that for no pay.   Nor am I aware that this is an industry practice at all.  You're just creating a straw man or red herring.   

AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2015, 10:22:18 am »

The reaction from the photographer hardly qualifies as an 'outburst.'
it totally does - going to vent publicly right away and in such manner... he is taking his emotions out because he was incensed by a first offer... by that logic anybody who feels incensed can do the same... now you have all the rights to be "incensed", but going right away to complain urbi et orbi is childish...
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2015, 10:26:48 am »

Neither straw man nor red herring. The quote says "let's say next year..." thus is a speculation about a future. Meaning, the way things are going, who's to say it won't happen in the future? If someone told you yesterday that one day magazine covers will be done by phone cameras, or amateurs, or selected from penny stock libraries, would you've believed them? Or that one day we will be leasing software month-by-month instead of owning it?

AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2015, 11:00:04 am »

Neither straw man nor red herring. The quote says "let's say next year..." thus is a speculation about a future. Meaning, the way things are going, who's to say it won't happen in the future? If someone told you yesterday that one day magazine covers will be done by phone cameras, or amateurs, or selected from penny stock libraries, would you've believed them? Or that one day we will be leasing software month-by-month instead of owning it?

if somebody wants to wail about the trends it is possible to do this in a civil manner, not taking the details from the first offer right away to the public in such manner...
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2015, 11:35:33 am »

Neither straw man nor red herring. The quote says "let's say next year..." thus is a speculation about a future. Meaning, the way things are going, who's to say it won't happen in the future? If someone told you yesterday that one day magazine covers will be done by phone cameras, or amateurs, or selected from penny stock libraries, would you've believed them? Or that one day we will be leasing software month-by-month instead of owning it?

I knew I should have told my daughter to wait to get married.  Maybe I could have gotten the wedding photographer for nothing. :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2015, 11:41:33 am »

I knew I should have told my daughter to wait to get married.  Maybe I could have gotten the wedding photographer for nothing. :)

You sure can today, Alan. The latest trend: hiring no photographer, just giving all guests a link to upload their photographs taken during the wedding. Costs nothing and surely provides for variety.

MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2015, 03:05:07 pm »

by that logic anybody who feels incensed can do the same... now you have all the rights to be "incensed", but going right away to complain urbi et orbi is childish...

You do have a right to be incensed and you do have a right to speak out publicly. At least where I'm from you do.

Also (again), calling his measured, thoughtful response "childish" or an "outburst" is a gross mischaracterization. If you'd like to read a real outburst so you can compare and contrast, I suggest you read Shirley Manson's (Yes, that Shirley Manson the lead singer of the very band we are talking about) open letter to Kayne West: https://www.facebook.com/shirleymanson/posts/10152927970266387

It seems most people here recognize that Pope was not trying to turn this "offer" into a paying deal, but his goal was to change the way business is conducted and hopefully show people that working for credit is not sustainable and planning projects centered on photographs with zero photography budget is a bad practice. If you agree that this is his goal, you have to see that quietly dealing with each of these requests one by one is a losing a battle. It's like quietly suggesting each telemarketer remove your number rather than trying to speak out about the problem and effect change on a larger scale. People speak out publicly all the time when they see something they perceive as injustice it's why we have editorials in newspapers and why we have freedom of speech. People speaking out publicly, or as you call it having "hysterical public reaction/tantrums" is why women can vote, why we have a minimum wage, why we don't use child labor, why we have labeling on food, why we have representative government. For every small step we have taken toward a more just world there has been some outspoke hero that has made themselves heard over a chorus of voices, like yours, telling them they should just being quiet.
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2015, 03:20:41 pm »

Quote
...For every small step we have taken toward a more just world there has been some outspoke hero that has made themselves heard over a chorus of voices, like yours, telling them they should just being quiet...

Very noble.  Do you publish your complaints about your boss and try to embarrass him publicly?   You certainly have the right to do that.   How long do you think you'll have a job?  All your ex-worker friends will pat you on the shoulder telling you what a hero you are. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2015, 03:26:52 pm »

Very noble.  Do you publish your complaints about your boss and try to embarrass him publicly?   You certainly have the right to do that.   How long do you think you'll have a job?  All your ex-worker friends will pat you on the shoulder telling you what a hero you are. 

Sure. You might end up with a multi-million dollar whistleblower award and protection from retaliation. And your boss loses his job and most likely goes to prison.

Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2015, 03:36:07 pm »

Good point Slobodan.  But I don't think Pope's going to get a whistle-blower award in this case.  He just lost a chance to get a job from this group and others.  

But you raise an interesting point.  Could he have handled this publicly without embarrassing his clients?  Was there a way he could dramatize the issue without naming names?  

Nick Walker

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2015, 05:22:38 pm »

 He just lost a chance to get a job from this group and others.  

Others - Really?

MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2015, 05:43:10 pm »

Very noble.  Do you publish your complaints about your boss and try to embarrass him publicly? 

You've brought up the issue of him embarrassing his client several times, Alan. There are reasons you might want to keep business practices private, such as keeping an edge on competition or protecting trade secrets. But most businesses take pride in the way they conduct business, they advertise it, it's part of their brand, they want people to know about it and talk about it.  If you are practicing business in such a way that public knowledge of that practice is embarrassing, it's a good indication that these practices are out of sync with your values and the values of your community. You can complain about the messenger or you can adjust your practices in such a way that they no longer embarrass you.
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2015, 06:02:55 pm »

Any businessman who embarrasses his clients publicly isn't going to have any pretty quickly.  And his big mouth will keep prospective customers away too.

Rainer SLP

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2015, 12:05:08 pm »

Hi,

We are all humans and well sometimes comes a moment were the human can not stand all that nonsense created by other humans and a Fuse blows up and for me that was the case here.

If the others can not understand that, then they are all hipocrits ...

All this hollow faces without expression making business also makes me sick ... I prefer a face to face stab rather then a Hug and the other stabbing me in the back and that is what this is ...

Somebody showing openly his feeling be it in any situation is by far a better business partner then those hipocrits apoligizing wanting something but telling I can not pay you something

and the band Garbage of course knows what is going on ... The book is about them ...

Would YOU, yes YOU allow anybody to write a book about YOU and YOU do not know what is going on ...

They make a book and expect no profit ? WOW ... they should be canonised as Saints

He took a decision and now he must live with it. Is that a problem for us ? I guess no, unless we will help him. We can help him or we can let him live ...

 
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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2015, 12:30:43 pm »

Hi,

We are all humans and well sometimes comes a moment were the human can not stand all that nonsense created by other humans and a Fuse blows up and for me that was the case here.

yes, true - but it shall not be hailed as the right way to conduct the business, that's it - no matter how insulted you are... unless he thinks that it serves him well in terms of the name recognition...

Somebody showing openly his feeling be it in any situation is by far a better business partner then those hipocrits apoligizing wanting something but telling I can not pay you something


sure - so he can send his option directly to where the offer came from, but that is different than to go whining in public, don't you see  :D ...

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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2015, 12:32:44 pm »

But most businesses take pride in the way they conduct business

yes, he takes pride in going public right away if he thinks that the offer is below his dignity...

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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2015, 12:33:41 pm »

 Could he have handled this publicly without embarrassing his clients?  Was there a way he could dramatize the issue without naming names?  

absolutely...
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Rainer SLP

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2015, 12:34:01 pm »

 ;D
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