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Author Topic: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing  (Read 37475 times)

Nick Walker

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You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« on: May 03, 2015, 03:45:54 pm »

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/apr/19/garbage-pat-pope-photography-you-sold-17-million-albums-and-you-want-to-pay-me-nothing

“Garbage have been incredibly vocal in the past about how everybody should pay for music and how artistry should be respected,” he adds.

I know, nothing new, and this wont be the last time it happens.

Iluvmycam

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2015, 05:13:27 pm »

You guys got to understand, photography is near worthless. But, if it is in your blood you do it for love and not for $.

Now, some of you will be lucky and get half a mil for your tricycle pix. But for the rest of us, no, nothing of that sort.
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Schewe

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2015, 08:07:17 pm »

You guys got to understand, photography is near worthless.

Actually it's not...it's worth what you think it's worth and if you personally assign near zero value, that's what it's worth.

I've experienced a lot of "can we use your image for free/credit?". I usually nicely say "no"...but I can see where somebody might get a bit tired of that and take a strong stand as this photographer did. I applaud him for standing up for the value of his images. The band screwed up by first asking for free/credit and then pushing back against the photographer. The book project should have had a budget to include some compensation unless the entire project was a not-for-profit effort for a charitable cause. I have allowed free/credit use for some causes...but it's very clear here that this was a promotional effort and thus not a not-fot-for profit project.
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jjj

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2015, 09:03:25 pm »

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David Anderson

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2015, 10:21:28 pm »

Well done Pat Pope..

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Colorado David

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2015, 11:58:20 pm »

Don't worry exposure is now legal tender;)

Thank you.  I forwarded that link on to some friends who struggle to pay the bills.  They'll be relieved to know this.

rpsphoto

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2015, 12:05:01 am »

I think Harlan Ellison covers this best re: "For Profit" enterprises offering exposure instead of cash:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE


Best regards,

Bob
CEO  CFO  EIEIO, Ret.
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Best regards,
 Bob CEO, CFO, EIEIO, Ret.

MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2015, 03:05:13 am »

You guys got to understand, photography is near worthless. But, if it is in your blood you do it for love and not for $.

Now, some of you will be lucky and get half a mil for your tricycle pix. But for the rest of us, no, nothing of that sort.
Actually it's not...it's worth what you think it's worth and if you personally assign near zero value, that's what it's worth.

I've experienced a lot of "can we use your image for free/credit?". I usually nicely say "no"...but I can see where somebody might get a bit tired of that and take a strong stand as this photographer did. I applaud him for standing up for the value of his images. The band screwed up by first asking for free/credit and then pushing back against the photographer. The book project should have had a budget to include some compensation unless the entire project was a not-for-profit effort for a charitable cause. I have allowed free/credit use for some causes...but it's very clear here that this was a promotional effort and thus not a not-fot-for profit project.

Completely agree here. Photography is still critical for communications, pr, advertising, and journalism. A lot of people recognize this value and good photographers are still finding ways to connect with these people in order to make a living.

What I see is a lot of naifs (Pat Pope not being one of them) who haven't put in the time and work to figure out the business complaining about how the entire industry is flawed because they haven't found success. It's a hard business, and it's always been hard, but the value of good photography and photographers is still very strong. There's plenty of people supporting themselves with it; some quite well.
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2015, 12:01:37 pm »

Pope made a mistake.  Not for refusing to give them his work for nothing.  But for publically embarrassing the group.  Why did he openly publish his complaint letter first?  He should have responded to them initially, but privately, to give them a chance to consider his concerns.  But he went public without any discussion with the group.   

A lot of groups will now not hire him because he seems like a "loose cannon" blowing off steam publically when he doesn't get his way. 

louoates

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2015, 01:02:38 pm »

Pope made a mistake.  Not for refusing to give them his work for nothing.  But for publically embarrassing the group.  Why did he openly publish his complaint letter first?  He should have responded to them initially, but privately, to give them a chance to consider his concerns.  But he went public without any discussion with the group.   

A lot of groups will now not hire him because he seems like a "loose cannon" blowing off steam publically when he doesn't get his way. 

I agree Alan. A private note would be much better.
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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2015, 01:26:17 pm »

to give them a chance to consider his concerns.  
I am sorry - what kind of concerns at all ? is there a law prohibiting asking ? note that the group did not use the image, did not threat to use the image, did not even hint that they are going to use the image w/o his consent... they just asked non publicly and in a proper manner (the price or "credit" is just a business proposition)... it is not a reason for a hysterical public reaction/tantrums... just answer no in the same manner and move on.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 01:29:22 pm by AlterEgo »
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Isaac

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2015, 01:28:52 pm »

Why did he openly publish his complaint letter first?

“Your two choices are to give them the permission, valuing your work at zero, or to refuse permission, in which case they will quietly remove you from the list of freelancers they work with so you won’t get any future work.”
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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2015, 01:34:38 pm »

“Your two choices are to give them the permission, valuing your work at zero, or to refuse permission, in which case they will quietly remove you from the list of freelancers they work with so you won’t get any future work.”
no, there are many choices - one of them is to behave yourself properly and he didn't
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MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2015, 01:50:00 pm »

no, there are many choices - one of them is to behave yourself properly and he didn't

Behave yourself properly?

This is a band that has been publicly vocal about the value of artists when it suits their interests only to demonstrate privately that they don't really value artists when it doesn't suit their interests. Quietly saying 'no thanks' just sends them off to the next schmuck and the cycle continues. If you've worked in the business you've been there, you understand, you have been asked to work for free or 'credit' constantly, even when everyone else is being paid. You can quietly complain and nothing will change or you can speak out. Pope did us a favor on this one. He may have sacrificed future work for it, but I suspect he weighed the consequences and decided it was worth the sacrifice.

It's never behaving 'properly' to speak truth to power. But people do it because it's often the only way to bring change and to focus public attention on issues. And there will always be a appeasing contingency that thinks trouble makers should just keep their head down, do their work, and be quiet. I am happy they don't; I wish there were more trouble makers like Pope.
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AlterEgo

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2015, 02:45:30 pm »

This is a band that has been publicly vocal about the value of artists when it suits their interests only to demonstrate privately that they don't really value artists when it doesn't suit their interests.

you are not getting it... they tried to conduct a business in a professional manner - privately offered him some price - in that case a "credit" (note that apparently he was happy to either conduct business with them for some time and/or make money off their photos = "... One act with whom he has worked several times are 90s indie titans Garbage..."), he didn't agree with that offer and found it insulting ? ok, that's just his emotions ... he is a businessman, not a kid in a kindergarten... being childishly emotional in a very public way about the offer from somebody off whom you were happily making money before is not the right way to behave.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 02:47:37 pm by AlterEgo »
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NancyP

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2015, 02:51:47 pm »

That Harlan Ellison video is a classic.
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Alan Klein

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 02:54:10 pm »

Who's going to sign a contract with this guy? What if you have a disagreement about the payment terms afterwards? Is he going to complain publicly about something that should be attempted to be settled privately? No one's going to hire him in the future.

pegelli

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 03:08:04 pm »

The final objective of the photographer is to make the band see the value of photographs and pay a reasonable amount for it.

So I think his first choice is to say privately "Pls. don't do to others what you don't like that others do to you. You want to be payed for your music so why don't you pay for my pictures"

If they do, case closed.

If they don't it's still early enough to "expose" them publicly if you want to. It still might be bad for your business, but as a businessman you can still decide it's worth it for you (or the community) and take your losses.

In my mind skipping the first step turns this into a lose-lose situation.
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pieter, aka pegelli

MarkM

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 03:17:36 pm »

you are not getting it... they tried to conduct a business in a professional manner - privately offered him some price - in that case a "credit" (note that apparently he was happy to either conduct business with them for some time and/or make money off their photos = "... One act with whom he has worked several times are 90s indie titans Garbage..."), he didn't agree with that offer and found it insulting ? ok, that's just his emotions ... he is a businessman, not a kid in a kindergarten... being childishly emotional in a very public way about the offer from somebody off whom you were happily making money before is not the right way to behave.


Asking someone to give you their product in exchange for something that both parties understand is worthless, is not conducting business in a professional manner. When someone asks to use your work 'for credit' they are not trying to 'conduct a business in a professional manner,' they are trying to take advantage of you.

I would probably agree with you if the band's request was a fluke or an outlier — something that happened rarely  — but is isn't, it happens to almost every decent photographer almost every week. And the reason it happens so frequently is because there are so many clueless people who think "credit" counts as "some price." 

Also, your description of him being 'childishly emotional' makes it sound like you didn't read his actual letter, which is a model of respect and civility. Maybe take another pass: https://www.facebook.com/patpope/posts/10153132085765568:0
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: You sold 17 million albums and you want to pay me nothing
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 03:32:43 pm »

Mark, I am with you on this one.
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