Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Manoli on August 22, 2021, 06:53:15 am
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Too important not to have its own thread.
Sitting on a humanitarian crisis, with horrifying potential to grow into a ‘crisis’ to rank alongside Rwanda and Cambodia. It’s not simply an American affair; The UK, EU, NATO are all embroiled and the European bi-partisan kick-ass reaction is strengthening.
Afghans caught in the chaos engulfing Kabul airport have described how victims have been shot and brutally beaten by Taliban militants and trampled to death in the melee, as US military jets make diving combat landings amid fears of a terror attack by so-called Islamic State.
More than 15 people including children shot dead, night-time crowd surges outside the airport gates and people killed in the stampede.
The British Ministry of Defence said in a statement that seven Afghan civilians have been killed trying to flee the Taliban. A spokesman added: 'Conditions on the ground remain extremely challenging but we are doing everything we can to manage the situation as safely and securely as possible.'
US military planes have been making rapid, diving combat landings at Kabul airport, while aircraft have fired flares on take-off, in a bid to confuse possible heat-seeking missiles amid a new, perceived threat from the Islamic State group affiliate in Afghanistan.
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Former Prime Minister of the UK*;
Tony Blair: Why We Must Not Abandon the People of Afghanistan – For Their Sakes and Ours
https://institute.global/tony-blair/tony-blair-why-we-must-not-abandon-people-afghanistan-their-sakes-and-ours
(Edit
* former Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to be precise)
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Biden is a senile placeholder for a President. Embarrassing and weak. He's not calling the shots. Unfortunately, the entire executive branch is filled with woke, corrupt and incompetent Obama-era clowns. Disgusting.
Regards,
Bud
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What else to expect from the Imbecile-In-Chief and his "80" million kin?
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How about them apples!
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Plenty of blame to go around for those fair to facts (I don't expect that for some posting here):
From those ultra liberals at the BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/58271943
What was the deal with the Taliban?
The deal - secured by Donald Trump and signed in Doha, Qatar, in February 2020 - committed to the withdrawal of US and allied (including British) troops from Afghanistan by May 2021.
After his election, US President Joe Biden continued the plan for withdrawal but with an end date of 31 August.
As recently as April 18, Trump said: “Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do. I planned to withdraw on May 1st, and we should keep as close to that schedule as possible.” On June 26, he bragged: “I started the process. All the troops are coming back home. They couldn’t stop the process. Twenty-one years is enough, don’t we think?”
Now Trump is calling all this “not acceptable” and saying that the troop withdrawal should have been “conditions based” yet that wasn’t part of the deal he struck with the Taliban.
There is more, but what's the point? It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds.
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On June 26, he bragged: “I started the process. All the troops are coming back home. They couldn’t stop the process.
Watch the ‘live’ recording:
https://youtu.be/PAr3NpYVkpI
Note the reference to ‘woke’ generals. Woke ? West Point take note.
The bottom line is that both Trump and Biden ignored military advice and intelligence, primarily for political reasons. More will come out in the weeks ahead, but there’s already sufficient witness and disingenuity on show to put that beyond doubt. Recriminations can and will surely come later. Question today is how to minimise the damage and where do we go from here.
Favourite take-away from the Blair interview:
“ A policy can’t be decided by a slogan, it’s got to decided on the basis of a strategy and that’s a different thing … “
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Too important not to have its own thread.
It isn't my forum or rules, but you might consider moving this to the "Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa" thread. The atmosphere there will be more appropriate for the level of commentary this is bound to attract. Just a suggestion.
Biden is a senile placeholder for a President. Embarrassing and weak. He's not calling the shots. Unfortunately, the entire executive branch is filled with woke, corrupt and incompetent Obama-era clowns. Disgusting.
What else to expect from the Imbecile-In-Chief and his "80" million kin?
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It isn't my forum or rules, but you might consider moving this to the "Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa" thread. The atmosphere there will be more appropriate for the level of commentary this is bound to attract. Just a suggestion.
I considered that, but this topic is really one of a foreign policy failure w/ international repercussions. The arbitrary ‘politics’ dictum was set by a now defunct (as far as this site is concerned) moderator. Josh said that he wished the site could be self-moderating and I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.
If it can’t maintain a level of reasoned debate, there’s always the mute (and nuke) button options. The bear pit remains open to those who can’t resist otherwise.
Boys, let’s raise the standard here, memes to a minimum, reasoned discourse ‘de rigeur’.
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... this topic is really one of a foreign policy failure w/ international repercussions...
Since you want international, how about this, coming from a "special relationship" ally (not a meme, a direct quote from an interview):
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Josh said that he wished the site could be self-moderating and I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.
Based on the recent post, how's that working out for you? :D
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An historical perspective (fall of Saigon) by someone who was there, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/21/saigon-vietnam-kabul-afghanistan-505943 (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/21/saigon-vietnam-kabul-afghanistan-505943).
There is a phrase in the article (paraphrasing) 'not really knowing why we were there or what we were trying to accomplish' that might be apt.
One thing that's odd to me is how leaving Afghanistan was a good idea when Trump advocated it but that it's a bad idea when Biden does. It will be easy to point to current tactical errors but people will ignore (as usual) the 20 years of errors that led to it. The attempts to make this a partisan issue about internal US politics is sad but expected, as if what's important about foreign wars is whether they benefit the Republicans or Democrats. That part of it is farce, really.
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... One thing that's odd to me is how leaving Afghanistan was a good idea when Trump advocated it but that it's a bad idea when Biden does...
You are usually not this dense.
Everybody and his mother-in-law agrees by now that leaving IS a good idea. Trump agrees, Biden agrees. The issue is HOW, that is, the execution of that idea. There are numerous descriptors, collected from all over the world, of that "how" by now: imbecilic, incompetent, amateurish, criminal, pathetic, disappointing, unbelievable, etc., etc.
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....I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.
Boys, let’s raise the standard here, memes to a minimum, reasoned discourse ‘de rigeur’.
Followed by:
You are usually not this dense.
So again, how well do you think this discourse is going? As the OP, you can do something about it.
So can I, by turning off notifications and bail out (before Frans arrives).
Adiós
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You are usually not this dense.
Everybody and his mother-in-law agrees by now that leaving IS a good idea. Trump agrees, Biden agrees. The issue is HOW, that is, the execution of that idea. There are numerous descriptors, collected from all over the world, of that "how" by now: imbecilic, incompetent, amateurish, criminal, pathetic, disappointing, unbelievable, etc., etc.
The execution was unbelievably incompetent.
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So again, how well do you think this discourse is going?
Not even off first base and not much ‘reasoned’ debate.
As the OP, you can do something about it.
And I will, but fttb ignoring all vituperative posts.
See my next post.
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Linking here to a blog post by Sarah Chayes.
Informative treatise , especially her appraisal of the ISI’s incubation of the Taliban.
Ms Chayes CV is detailed in the Wikipedia link below.
In 2010, Chayes became a special adviser to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen. In this capacity, she contributed to strategic US policy on Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Arab Spring.[1]
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Chayes
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... not much ‘reasoned’ debate...
By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad after all"?
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By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad after all"?
I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad? Am I being dense again?
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I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad?
Ok, sorry... fixed it now:
By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad it isn't Biden's fault after all"?
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I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad?...
Well, actually, that is exactly the official White House position. From Biden enthusiastically saying: "Hey, look, man... no one has been killed," followed by a knock on wood for good measure, to Psaki:
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By "reasoned debate" you probably mean...
Something other than the kind of shallow insults, name calling, internet memes, or a one sentence treatise (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/treatise).
But that's what you're likely to get from those eager to express reactions excited by a tight embrace of a rigid, narrow, simplistic, fundamentalist ideology which removes complexity and uncertainty from their lives for the sake of emotional security.
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You know it is bad when a 10-year old satire can be mistaken for today's news:
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... a one sentence treatise (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/treatise)...
Actually, a sentence is too long. One word suffices: shitshow.
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For those shitshow apologists' argument "Well... it is a problem 20 years in the making, not Biden's fault"... proceeding to mention only Bush and Trump... conveniently "forgetting" that in eight of those 20 years Biden was the vice president. And even before that, he argued this:
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Not even off first base and not much ‘reasoned’ debate.
Are we done yet? Just curious what your tolerance level is for juvenile knee-jerk posts lacking any substantive depth before allowing the "discussion" to migrate to the swamp where it belongs.
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For those shitshow apologists' argument "Well... it is a problem 20 years in the making, not Biden's fault"... proceeding to mention only Bush and Trump... conveniently "forgetting" that in eight of those 20 years Biden was the vice president. And even before that, he argued this:
"not Biden's fault" ?
I don't think anyone has actually said that or that they think Biden and his minions have done a good job, at least not in the stuff I've read. All I've suggested is that he's latest to join the queue of questionable US foreign actions. At one point though, in the other thread, I did make comment when someone suggested that this was all Biden's fault, which appeared simple-minded to me. If you took that to mean that I thought that Biden has done a good job, well you inferred too much.
I thought this was about Afghanistan and not about current US partisan politics. Bringing interesting articles to people's attention is still useful though, I'll keep an eye out for those posts.
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As I've said several times in threads going back years, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but Biden's response to this situation has pushed me beyond anger. His response so far can be characterized as the infamous two-dude criminal defense: "Some other dude done it." The fact is, that fatuous ass Pompeo and his moronic boss set up this disaster, but then Biden didn't walk away when he could have. He didn't have to point fingers at everyone but himself. He could have taken charge. He is absolutely not a "the buck stops here" guy. He absolutely could have made all kinds of (good) excuses for pulling out of the disastrous Trump/Pompeo deal -- including simply saying Pompeo's deal was criminally bad. Robert Gates, maybe the best U.S. Defense Secretary in half a century, appointed by Bush II and kept on by Obama (there's a recommendation for you) said that Joe Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades." And here's another one to add to the list.
I get sick when I think of the massacres to come. And people crying about American lives lost in a pointless war should think about the fact that no American troops were killed in combat since February of 2020 -- combat was virtually over, but the American presence kept the Taliban at bay. And keeping the Taliban at bay served (IMHO) a serious purpose -- I think the modern world is catching up with Afghanistan (and Pakistan and Iran, and Syria) and that sooner or later, the Taliban would simply have become irrelevant. They might have continued as a terrorist group, but not as a government. Now, we're going to get another Iran.
Further, I'm afraid as the disaster grows, Biden will have made more likely the possibility of a Republican comeback in 2024, with all the racist, anti-democratic, anti-science Trumpkin bs that they've tied themselves to in the last six years.
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As I've said several times in threads going back years, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but Biden's response to this situation has pushed me beyond anger. His response so far can be characterized as the infamous two-dude criminal defense: "Some other dude done it." The fact is, that fatuous ass Pompeo and his moronic boss set up this disaster, but then Biden didn't walk away when he could have. He didn't have to point fingers at everyone but himself. He could have taken charge. He is absolutely not a "the buck stops here" guy. He absolutely could have made all kinds of (good) excuses for pulling out of the disastrous Trump/Pompeo deal -- including simply saying Pompeo's deal was criminally bad. Robert Gates, maybe the best U.S. Defense Secretary in half a century, appointed by Bush II and kept on by Obama (there's a recommendation for you) said that Joe Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades." And here's another one to add to the list.
I get sick when I think of the massacres to come. And people crying about American lives lost in a pointless war should think about the fact that no American troops were killed in combat since February of 2020 -- combat was virtually over, but the American presence kept the Taliban at bay. And keeping the Taliban at bay served (IMHO) a serious purpose -- I think the modern world is catching up with Afghanistan (and Pakistan and Iran, and Syria) and that sooner or later, the Taliban would simply have become irrelevant. They might have continued as a terrorist group, but not as a government. Now, we're going to get another Iran.
Further, I'm afraid as the disaster grows, Biden will have made more likely the possibility of a Republican comeback in 2024, with all the racist, anti-democratic, anti-science Trumpkin bs that they've tied themselves to in the last six years.
That is indeed very likely now, the Dems will lose a lot of support between now and 2024. Actually, losing just a few counties will tip the elections results from what it could have been.
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I consider Trump contemptible in the extreme and hold him far more to blame than Biden for the Taliban victory because he struck the Doha peace deal with them. The departure is exacerbating the tragedy, but the fact that he’s enacting Trump’s plan doesn’t exonerate Biden, it excoriates him. The more depraved you know Trump to be, the worse Biden’s behaviour becomes.
Afghan’s mineral rights handed to China and the country reverting to being a training ground for anti-western terrorists. All thrown away by Trump and Biden under a false slogan of ending ‘a forever war’. I won’t even go into what this will mean for the circa 5 million Afghanis remaining in Kabul and the other 35 million in the wider country.
The US has hardly lost a soldier since 2014 and none for over a year. all the expensive hard work of building bases was done in the first decade. Sometimes you have to undertake an indefinite occupation for security. Ask Britain, it can take 50 years to turn a failed state around (Egypt), 200 years to unite its tribes. And don't expect any thanks.
In this case, there was minimal expense in maintaining a 2,500 strong presence plus coalition manpower particularly if you consider the wider cost. The US has almost 30,000 troops stationed in South Korea another 50,000 in Japan. Is anyone seriously suggesting that these troops be recalled on the basis of ending another ‘forever war’ ?
Trump and Biden both exploited this slogan; one to bolster his election prospects and the other out of fear of a domestic political backlash (at least that is the least damning interpretation one can put on it).
Both are equally contemptible, both with blood on their hands. As one prominent Conservative and ex-military put it during the UK parliamentary debate : “I have lowered my fellow soldiers into the ground … what was it all for?”
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Oh, Jesus, Manoli, you have outdone yourself here!!! TDS still having a firm hold of your soul? ;D ;D ;D
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This is an interview/discussion from Deep Background podcast (Pushkin Industries) about the lost war in Afghanistan, https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/we-lost-the-war-in-afghanistan-now-what/ (https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/we-lost-the-war-in-afghanistan-now-what/).
The discussion takes place from tactical and strategic points of view with someone who has done military tours of duty in Afghanistan. The discussion does not take place through the lens of US partisan politics culture war bullshit, so you shouldn't listen to it if that's what you're looking for. It offers some ideas not previously discussed here, hope you find it informative.
Here is the short intro blurb from the linked page: Emile Simpson, a military expert and veteran of the war in Afghanistan, discusses the end of the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban’s recent takeover. Simpson outlines the strategic failures that contributed to the current situation and comments on the United States’s responsibility to evacuate allied Afghans.
Simpson is a former British Army officer who completed three tours in southern Afghanistan. He’s the author of the book, War From the Ground Up: Twenty-First Century Combat as Politics.
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Oh, Jesus, Manoli, you have outdone yourself here!!! TDS still having a firm hold of your soul? ;D ;D ;D
It's sad when a distinguished gentleman of intelligence is reduced to repeatedly barking insults instead of rational and well reasoned dialogue. :'( :'( :'(
It's unfortunately what I've observed in many otherwise decent and intelligent people when their reason is corrupted by allowing a rigid ideology to take a firm hold of their soul.
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It's sad when a distinguished gentleman of intelligence is reduced to repeatedly barking insults instead of rational and well reasoned dialogue. :'( :'( :'(
It's unfortunately what I've observed in many otherwise decent and intelligent people when their reason is corrupted by allowing a rigid ideology to take a firm hold of their soul.
For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue." Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis.
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What really gets me about this whole thing is that it is obvious, to anyone watching, Biden's legacy is now destroyed. There is no coming back from this; he is done and, more then likely, already a lame duck president. All that can be done at this point is mitigate the disaster so it is not as bad as it can be.
Biden, though, is acting as if this will all just blow over. As if he can abandon 1000s of Americans, but by just waiting out the media cycle and sprinkling in some Covid news here and there, everything will be fine.
It is bewildering how he can be so obtuse. Although I was not alive for it, I have to imagine Carter knew the Iran hostage situation was lights out for him and he did not live in delusion about it (at least that is my impression).
Meanwhile, the entirety of the administration has this deer in the headlights look where you can tell they know their careers are over after this. Maybe they will survive this administration, but they know they are now radioactive.
On the bright side, as many have pointed out, 2022 should be a banner year along with 2024. With that said, we're talking about politicians here, those whom can screw literally anything up, so ...
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For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue." Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis.
I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's sub-threads, but in the past I'd say that Tech Talk's contributions have been among the most erudite and polite on these pages.
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For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue." Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis.
Given that it is an ongoing situation which hasn't fully played out, I'm not eager to jump to conclusions or give knee-jerk reactions. I generally prefer to wait until the dust has begun to settle and rumors, conjecture, and social media "facts" can be separated from what is actually knowable before forming some initial thoughts on a matter.
I realize that isn't an enjoyable or entertaining approach for those that are eager put their wit and talent for insults on display for the purpose of scoring ideological points. Then again, I think all ideologies corrupt reason. Some do a great deal more harm to it than others and it usually depends on how tightly and rigidly people cling hold of whatever ideology brings them mental and emotional comfort in a reality that is always quite complex and unpredictable.
While current events continue to evolve, my general thoughts are of history. Wars are filled with chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and this is especially true of civil wars. Any nation caught in the middle of the civil war of another nation will likely have to deal with a great deal of chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and that applies equally to withdrawing from it. Perhaps more so.
The Fall of Saigon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon) is not that distant of a memory. The images of helicopters lifting lines of people from a rooftop (https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/4/21/1429636735711/b829d36c-ae98-4a6d-a508-5b5382d4719f-1020x612.jpeg?width=465&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=8cf042d4a8016e10ea7cad6557f9b538) are still easy to conjure in many peoples minds—along with refugees escaping by boat and being rescued from the water.
It wasn't pretty then and neither is it now... but anytime you're making a strategic withdrawal (a retreat) from the middle of a civil war, no matter how civil and organized you may hope it will be—it isn't like you're just checking out of a hotel. In the meantime, I'm in no hurry to make judgements. I can wait until the last inning has been played.
No plan survives first contact with the enemy. (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/05/04/no-plan/)
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I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's sub-threads, but in the past I'd say that Tech Talk's contributions have been among the most erudite and polite on these pages.
Polite, yes, thorough here, at least, after criticizing others for not being so, no, up until now when I prodded him.
Although I do have to say, TechTalk make plenty of sense with his response preceding this one.
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up until now when I prodded him.
All of the credit goes to you.
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All of the credit goes to you.
All great minds need a divine push every now and then, especially those mired down the minutiae of being in the world's most hated profession.
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All great mind need a divine push every now and then, especially those mired down the minutiae of being in the world's most hated profession.
I'll look forward to seeing that translated sometime.
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I'll look forward to seeing that translated sometime.
There is a weighty scene in Crime and Punishment where Luzhin, Avdotya's fiancee and a lawyer, sends a letter to Pulcheria about Raskolnikov's encounter with Sofia the day before. Razumikhin's keen observation on the nature of the letter fits there, and here.
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YouTube hosted front line report from SKY News.
Skip the ads, 4 minutes duration.
Recommended.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SL57lh3tpVk&feature=share
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Everyone is a smartass after the event.
The only person with a different take on this subject (that I have heard).
Lawrence O’Donnell explains that no army has ever evacuated from a lost war without leaving anyone behind.
https://youtu.be/cy19tcEc7Zs
https://youtu.be/SfRkuGZo4-M
A simple history lesson.
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I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's sub-threads, but in the past I'd say that Tech Talk's contributions have been among the most erudite and polite on these pages.
Perhaps... yet utterly wrong.
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Given that it is an ongoing situation which hasn't fully played out, I'm not eager to jump to conclusions or give knee-jerk reactions. I generally prefer to wait until the dust has begun to settle and rumors, conjecture, and social media "facts" can be separated from what is actually knowable before forming some initial thoughts on a matter.
I realize that isn't an enjoyable or entertaining approach for those that are eager put their wit and talent for insults on display for the purpose of scoring ideological points. Then again, I think all ideologies corrupt reason. Some do a great deal more harm to it than others and it usually depends on how tightly and rigidly people cling hold of whatever ideology brings them mental and emotional comfort in a reality that is always quite complex and unpredictable.
While current events continue to evolve, my general thoughts are of history. Wars are filled with chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and this is especially true of civil wars. Any nation caught in the middle of the civil war of another nation will likely have to deal with a great deal of chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and that applies equally to withdrawing from it. Perhaps more so.
The Fall of Saigon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon) is not that distant of a memory. The images of helicopters lifting lines of people from a rooftop (https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/4/21/1429636735711/b829d36c-ae98-4a6d-a508-5b5382d4719f-1020x612.jpeg?width=465&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=8cf042d4a8016e10ea7cad6557f9b538) are still easy to conjure in many peoples minds—along with refugees escaping by boat and being rescued from the water.
It wasn't pretty then and neither is it now... but anytime you're making a strategic withdrawal (a retreat) from the middle of a civil war, no matter how civil and organized you may hope it will be—it isn't like you're just checking out of a hotel. In the meantime, I'm in no hurry to make judgements. I can wait until the last inning has been played.
No plan survives first contact with the enemy. (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/05/04/no-plan/)
;D ;D ;D
Apparently, when today’s Chinese were asked for their assessment of the French Revolution, the answer was “Too early to tell.”
I will be eagerly awaiting your assessments in a couple of hundred years.
P.S. as I predicted in the beginning, we will be soon inundated with a flood of bloviated, pseudo intellectual, seemingly eloquent attempts to relativize, conceptualize, or simply spin what is going on for the whole world to see into various forms of “Move on, nothing to see here, it’s just Monday morning in Afghanistan” or “Oh, every war is a tragedy” or “Too early to judge” or “no army has ever evacuated from a lost war without leaving anyone behind” or blah, blah, blah.
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I got to say that the “defense” of Biden here so far has been equally imbecilic as the former British prime minister Blair said for Biden.
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I got to say that the “defense” of Biden here so far has been equally imbecilic as the former British prime minister Blair said for Biden.
You might be over-reaching, I didn't interpret anything anyone wrote here as a "defense" of Biden. You're in danger of constructing a straw man.
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...
P.S. as I predicted in the beginning, we will be soon inundated with a flood of bloviated, pseudo intellectual, simingly eloquent attempts to relativize, conceptualize, or simply spin what is going on for the whole world to see into various forms of “Move on, nothing to see here, it’s just Monday morning in Afghanistan” or “Oh, every war is a tragedy” or “Too early to judge” or “no army has ever evacuated from a lost war without leaving anyone behind” or blah, blah, blah.
Thanks, that was helpful.
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On a positive note, it seems that the US has managed to get 80,000+ people out of Afghanistan in the last ten days or so.
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After seeing Biden's remarks today and the fact we are doing nothing in response (other then just saying words), if a terrorist act was performed on our soil, even then I can not trust Biden would actually do anything about it.
Hey, but at least it was good that he was "instructed" this time to take questions. Unfortunately Peter Doocy got on that list somehow and, when asked if he takes responsibility for the 13 military members dying today, Biden still managed to blame Trump while clutching his paper and lowing his head in anger over the question. (See below)
Impeach and remove. And no this is not about politics; it is about protecting the country. After today's feckless response we can expect ISIS K is planning an attack here in our country. I thought that Biden was still a better option then Harris up until now; I was wrong.
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But hey... at least he is going to get brownie points for sticking to the withdrawal timetable!
At this point, I almost feel sorry for him. It is a sheer elder abuse.
With apologies to my “rational and well reasoned” friends, but memes often can say things better that a 1000-word treatise.
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... After today's feckless response we can expect ISIS K is planning an attack here in our country. ...
About a year ago, I remember you accusing people of crying "chicken little" when they expressed concerned about the spread of Covid. Assigning blame to Biden of a future imagined attack by ISIS on US soil is what then? I get it, you're concerned about how the exit is going, but get a grip. The more likely scenario after the US leaves is that they won't care one bit about the US. They'll have plenty of local targets to choose from.
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... get a grip. The more likely scenario after the US leaves is that they won't care one bit about the US. They'll have plenty of local targets to choose from.
I like your sense of humor.
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Impeach and remove. And no this is not about politics;
You seem to have a sense of humor too.
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we can expect ISIS K is planning an attack here in our country.
Frankly, at the present time, It's considerably more likely that we will see continued right-wing conspira-tive (conspiracy nut-conservative) attacks and violence like we saw in their attack on the Capitol. Fortunately, the pipe bombs (https://www.npr.org/2021/04/14/986457987/what-we-know-about-the-suspect-who-planted-bombs-before-the-capitol-riot) placed by the headquarters of the Democratic and Republican National Committees near the Capitol were discovered and disarmed before they went off on January 6th.
Another nut just shut things down in and round the Capitol a little over a week ago, after he drove his pickup onto the sidewalk outside of the Library of Congress (which borders the Capitol and Supreme Court) and threatened to set off a bomb (https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029590710/security-capitol-complex-bomb-threat-floyd-roseberry-capitol-police). Stay tuned for more incidents, as we've seen how easily large numbers of gullible conspira-tive RepubliQans are fooled into believing anything, no matter how foolish, and reacting.
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P.S. as I predicted in the beginning
Oh! I've seen you on TV (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Carnac.jpg)! You're funny (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIPuDZL7-eE).
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Oh! I've seen you on TV (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Carnac.jpg)! You're funny (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIPuDZL7-eE).
Your attempts to be funny are just as funny as Biden’s attempts to be President. Luckily, your failures are not lethal.
P.S. but I do appreciate your switching to one-liners, instead of bloviated sophisms.
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Frankly, at the present time, It's considerably more likely that we will see continued right-wing conspira-tive (conspiracy nut-conservative) attacks and violence like we saw in their attack on the Capitol. Fortunately, the pipe bombs (https://www.npr.org/2021/04/14/986457987/what-we-know-about-the-suspect-who-planted-bombs-before-the-capitol-riot) placed by the headquarters of the Democratic and Republican National Committees near the Capitol were discovered and disarmed before they went off on January 6th.
Another nut just shut things down in and round the Capitol a little over a week ago, after he drove his pickup onto the sidewalk outside of the Library of Congress (which borders the Capitol and Supreme Court) and threatened to set off a bomb (https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029590710/security-capitol-complex-bomb-threat-floyd-roseberry-capitol-police). Stay tuned for more incidents, as we've seen how easily large numbers of gullible conspira-tive RepubliQans are fooled into believing anything, no matter how foolish, and reacting.
How timely and appropriate!
Yes, let’s compare two past non-events with two real explosions that just killed 200 people, 13 Americans among them.
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Frankly, at the present time, It's considerably more likely that we will see continued right-wing conspira-tive (conspiracy nut-conservative) attacks and violence like we saw in their attack on the Capitol. Fortunately, the pipe bombs (https://www.npr.org/2021/04/14/986457987/what-we-know-about-the-suspect-who-planted-bombs-before-the-capitol-riot) placed by the headquarters of the Democratic and Republican National Committees near the Capitol were discovered and disarmed before they went off on January 6th.
Another nut just shut things down in and round the Capitol a little over a week ago, after he drove his pickup onto the sidewalk outside of the Library of Congress (which borders the Capitol and Supreme Court) and threatened to set off a bomb (https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029590710/security-capitol-complex-bomb-threat-floyd-roseberry-capitol-police). Stay tuned for more incidents, as we've seen how easily large numbers of gullible conspira-tive RepubliQans are fooled into believing anything, no matter how foolish, and reacting.
If you lost a family member on 9-11 like I did, you wouldn't be so sanguine about it not happening again. We spent twenty years in Afghanistan to keep the terrorist's from doing it again. So now, even before we pull out, that country is back with Taliban, and other terrorist groups like ISIS and Al Khaida, stronger and more well-armed then ever before with modern weapons we left. Let's hope they'll be so busy killing each other, they don't have time to export their violence and 7th century concepts again to our country or others. Frankly, I'm not too hopeful.
I can't imagine what the speeches here are going to be like next month on the twentieth anniversary of 9-11 when it will be as nothing has changed. What will the speakers have to say about that? How will the listeners react? It's going to be very disheartening.
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How timely and appropriate!
Yes, let’s compare two past non-events with two real explosions that just killed 200 people, 13 Americans among them.
Fair enough, I suppose. Are this explosion and deaths any worse than the previous 20 years' worth (or longer if we go back to the pre-US era)? Why single out this atrocity.
By the estimates in the podcast I posted a link to the other day, there have been about 45,000 deaths in the Iraq forces, almost as many as US soldiers in Vietnam. And then there are the civilian deaths. There are probably lots of people pissed off about those.
This thread is now in danger of going back and forth on this issue, with outrage over the last couple of weeks demanding attention and others pointing to longer term issues. Lurching from mess to mess may not be a good way to enact foreign policy.
If the presence in Afghanistan was to prevent future terrorist threat, then these recent events are an indication that this was not particularly well executed, if things could break down so easily and so quickly.
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If you lost a family member on 9-11 like I did, you wouldn't be so sanguine about it not happening again. We spent twenty years in Afghanistan to keep the terrorist's from doing it again. So now, even before we pull out, that country is back with Taliban, and other terrorist groups like ISIS and Al Khaida, stronger and more well-armed then ever before with modern weapons we left. Let's hope they'll be so busy killing each other, they don't have time to export their violence and 7th century concepts again to our country or others. Frankly, I'm not too hopeful.
I can't imagine what the speeches here are going to be like next month on the twentieth anniversary of 9-11 when it will be as nothing has changed. What will the speakers have to say about that? How will the listeners react? It's going to be very disheartening.
Well, I don't think he's being sanguine about people dying, don't overplay that because lots of innocent Iraqis died too and they had relatives. That won't get us anywhere.
As for suppressing a future terrorist threat, I would argue that the US didn't do a very good job, given how rapidly the place is deteriorating now. As often happens in US foreign policy, the horse they back turns out to be so corrupt that the local population doesn't respect it. That's probably not a good way to go about it. Might be worth trying something different next time.
Not many months ago, I remember you being fully in favour of pulling out when Trump was in charge. What did you think was going to happen?
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Fair enough, I suppose. Are this explosion and deaths any worse than the previous 20 years' worth (or longer if we go back to the pre-US era)? Why single out this atrocity.
By the estimates in the podcast I posted a link to the other day, there have been about 45,000 deaths in the Iraq forces, almost as many as US soldiers in Vietnam. And then there are the civilian deaths. There are probably lots of people pissed off about those.
This thread is now in danger of going back and forth on this issue, with outrage over the last couple of weeks demanding attention and others pointing to longer term issues. Lurching from mess to mess may not be a good way to enact foreign policy.
If the presence in Afghanistan was to prevent future terrorist threat, then these recent events are an indication that this was not particularly well executed, if things could break down so easily and so quickly.
The atrocities are bad from an American standpoint becuase so many Americans got killed when there have been none in over a year. The numbers of dead Afghans are huge as well. I'm afraid the planes leaving are sitting ducks and I fear we're going to see worse assaults in the next few days.
I thought we should get out of there just as many other Americans also believed we were done there. But now, in retrospect, leaving a few thousand troops may have been better to keep a lid on things. I believe the US military recommended that. To go back to what was there before 9-11 is heartbreaking after all the sacrifices made by America and so many other countries. We also could use a base to project power in that area and protect us from bad guys there who want to hurt the Western world. Without Afghanistan, there's a huge gap. I feel we're in a modern version of the Crusades.
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Well, I don't think he's being sanguine about people dying, don't overplay that because lots of innocent Iraqis died too and they had relatives. That won't get us anywhere.
As for suppressing a future terrorist threat, I would argue that the US didn't do a very good job, given how rapidly the place is deteriorating now. As often happens in US foreign policy, the horse they back turns out to be so corrupt that the local population doesn't respect it. That's probably not a good way to go about it. Might be worth trying something different next time.
Not many months ago, I remember you being fully in favour of pulling out when Trump was in charge. What did you think was going to happen?
I was wrong. The US military was right when they said we should leave troops there. Also, the way we got out, like shutting down Bagram Air base and removing planes and troops there, was the wrong strategy. That's on Biden. I think he was rushing to get it done so he could get a photo-op on 9-11 next month showing what a great leader he is by having no troops in Afghanistan. He miscalculated. He should have reversed Trump's decision as he reversed other decisions of Trump's like the XL pipeline, the southern border, and the Paris climate agreement. His military was telling him too. Unfortunately, they weren't advising me and I thought things were better than they really were. But Biden had secret assessments from his CIA that things were worse than we were being told. For example, who knew the Taliban had Al Khaida in with them already? My theory on getting out was to advise the Taliban that we'd be back if they again allowed terrorists to use the country's territory to attack the west again. We can still do that. If the Taliban is smart, they just may keep their noses clean. How women are treated there isn't our business. It's their culture and they have to change it. Saudi Arabia isn't much different yet they're our friend. Trump also screwed up by keeping the Afghan government out of the negotiations with the Taliban and treated them as a non-entity. He was stupid too.
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P.S. but I do appreciate your switching to one-liners
When you're trying to communicate with someone, it's usually easier for them to understand if you do so on their level.
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The awful thing is Biden doesn't think he made a mistake. He blames Trump and others for all bad things that happened. The fact there are scores killed already and the entire twenty-year Afghan war enterprise has gone down the drain has no impact on him.
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an attack here in our country.
How timely and appropriate!
Yes, let’s compare two past non-events with two real explosions that just killed 200 people, 13 Americans among them.
Please try to keep up with the conversation. I was responding to the future likelihood of "an attack here in our country" specifically. You're so eager to go on the attack to score political points, that you're letting your focus wander.
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Please try to keep up with the conversation. I was responding to the likelihood of "an attack here in our country" specifically. You're so eager to go on the attack to score political points, that you're letting your focus wander.
Al Khaida being in with the Taliban again does not bode well especially for European countries as they're closer. They aren't protected by two oceans like America is. I suspect they'll get hit first. It's like the year 2000 again. I predict the TSA will be checking bags more thoroughly again at the airport.
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Luckily, your failures are not lethal.
No they're not. Embrace of a fundamentalist antigovernment ideology can be however. Like yours for instance.
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Your attempts to be funny are just as funny as Biden’s attempts to be President.
I was attempting to be serious... and Biden is the president.
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... and Biden is the president.
You sure?
I don’t think even he is sure. I hear he is instructed what to say and do, no?
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Food for thought.
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I don’t think even he is sure. I hear he is instructed what to say and do, no?
Wasn’t that the same for Reagan ?
And history has looked upon Reagan very favourably.
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Food for thought.
The Kurds had and have an army and a territory to protect themselves. They negotiated with both Turkey and Syria and made deals with them after we left. Life goes on with the Kurds. We made no guarantees to the Kurds to defend them against Turkey a NATO country and long-time ally of ours. We Americans and the Kurds made common cause to fight and destroy a common enemy - ISIS in Syria. After that, we both went our ways.
It's different with individual Afghans who supported us. They have no way to protect themselves without us. We made personal guarantees to them that should things go south, as they have, we would help them to emigrate so they wouldn't be killed. We've failed in that promise to a large degree, which will be shameful, if the Taliban kills them.
On a related matter, didn't we learn anything about nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan to realize we should keep out of that business in Kurdistan and elsewhere. It's why we're in this mess now in Afghanistan. To have repeated that nation-building mistake with the Kurds would have been foolish.
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Wasn’t that the same for Reagan ?
And history has looked upon Reagan very favourably.
Biden has a lot of catching up to do to match Reagan help destroying the Soviet Union. So far in the short seven months since his inauguration, Biden's created an immigration crisis on our southern border, made us dependent on Middle East oil again, and lost Afghanistan to the 9/11 terrorists giving courage to the Chinese and other adversaries to stir up trouble for us in the Pacific and elsewhere. Our allies in NATO and elsewhere are more furious at him with his incompetence than they ever were with Trump's nastiness.
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I hear [Biden] is instructed what to say and do, no?
Apparently not with regard to the policy regarding military withdrawal from Afghanistan.
In a decision that was Trumpian in its preference for instinct over expert advice, Biden, who throughout the Obama Administration reportedly wanted to end the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan, decided to proceed with Trump's withdrawal policy. He, like Trump, acted on strongly-held conviction as well as a political calculation that public opinion favored withdrawal. (Obama reportedly had felt the same at first, but as he learned more about the policy options and their implications, his decided not to act on his initial instinct.)
It probably will be quite some time before enough information becomes public knowledge to know for certain, but it seems likely the people in the government who were to become responsible for implementing the withdrawal were aware, and warned Biden and the appropriate political appointees of his Administration, that there was likely to be a loss of confidence within the Afghan national government and army once the United States began a noncombatant evacuation operation, even if they failed to anticipate that the Afghan army would collapse as quickly as it did. They also presumably figured there would be a hectic, difficult-to-manage scramble by civilians to leave the country once the U.S. military began its own withdrawal.
Biden, like Trump, made the policy decision. Other appointive and career officials were responsible for its implementation. I don't think anyone who wasn't privy to the latter process can know at this juncture whether there was a way to have carried out the implementation of the withdrawal that would have resulted in less chaos. It seems to me that once the policy was set by the previous Administration and reiterated (with minor modifications) by this one, the options available to the military and diplomatic officials charged with carrying it out were rather limited.
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Apparently not with regard to the policy regarding military withdrawal from Afghanistan.
In a decision that was Trumpian in its preference for instinct over expert advice, Biden, who throughout the Obama Administration reportedly wanted to end the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan, decided to proceed with Trump's withdrawal policy. He, like Trump, acted on strongly-held conviction as well as a political calculation that public opinion favored withdrawal. (Obama reportedly had felt the same at first, but as he learned more about the policy options and their implications, his decided not to act on his initial instinct.)
It probably will be quite some time before enough information becomes public knowledge to know for certain, but it seems likely the people in the government who were to become responsible for implementing the withdrawal were aware, and warned Biden and the appropriate political appointees of his Administration, that there was likely to be a loss of confidence within the Afghan national government and army once the United States began a noncombatant evacuation operation, even if they failed to anticipate that the Afghan army would collapse as quickly as it did. They also presumably figured there would be a hectic, difficult-to-manage scramble by civilians to leave the country once the U.S. military began its own withdrawal.
Biden, like Trump, made the policy decision. Other appointive and career officials were responsible for its implementation. I don't think anyone who wasn't privy to the latter process can know at this juncture whether there was a way to have carried out the implementation of the withdrawal that would have resulted in less chaos. It seems to me that once the policy was set by the previous Administration and reiterated (with minor modifications) by this one, the options available to the military and diplomatic officials charged with carrying it out were rather limited.
Blaming Trump when he was no longer president is not appropriate. You don't know if Trump would have changed his mind. At a minimum, Trump claims he would have pulled out differently. There's no way for anyone to know what would have happened if Trump was re-elected.
Biden is responsible as he's president and commander-in-chief. He did not have to complete Trump's pullout anymore than he continued with Trump's Mexico policy for migrants or the Paris Climate accord. Biden has said over and over, even while Afghanistan was collapsing to the Taliban and Al Khaida and ISIS, that he's not changing and is ending our involvement there. However, it turns out, good or bad, he can't blame others. He owns it.
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... a fundamentalist antigovernment ideology... Like yours for instance.
Gee, according to you, I am just one post away from becoming an ISIS lieutenant ;D
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Biden … lost Afghanistan to the 9/11 terrorists giving courage to the Chinese and other adversaries to stir up trouble for us in the Pacific and elsewhere. Our allies in NATO and elsewhere are more furious at him with his incompetence than they ever were with Trump's nastiness.
“ The Agreement was supported by China, Russia and Pakistan[3] and unanimously endorsed by the UN Security Council,[4] but did not involve the government of Afghanistan. “ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Agreement_(2020)]
In signing the surrender document, America gave China free reign with their ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ and an open invitation to the vast mineral reserves of Afghanistan. I’m wracking my brain trying to remember who signed it. Biden could have stopped or renegotiated it - he didn’t.
A monumental foreign policy train wreck in a shameful period of US political incontinence.
How women are treated there isn't our business. It's their culture and they have to change it.
20 years on, women and children now inducted into western ways and education, many never having known , let alone been subjected to such a regressive, medieval and repressive culture, now in fear for their lives and that’s your response ?
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Olivia Troye, a former White House national security staffer during the Trump admin., sent this message as an email on behalf of the Republican Accountability Project: [/so far unverified]
My heart breaks right now for the people of Afghanistan, and for our allies who are trapped in the country and surrounded by the Taliban. This was a disaster that never had to happen, and I hope they are evacuated quickly and safely.
I'm seeing Republicans claim that Trump would have handled the situation far better—and I know for a fact that's just not true. Until 2020, I was a national security staffer for the Trump administration, until I quit after seeing just how incompetent and cruel he was. Afghanistan was no exception.
I sat in cabinet meetings about getting Americans and our Afghan allies out of the country. In them, Stephen Miller would peddle his racist hysteria. He and his enablers across the government undermined anyone who worked on solving the issues in getting special immigrant visas (SIVs) for our Afghan allies by undermining the system at Homeland Security and the State Department.
I tracked this issue personally in my role at the White House. I met with many refugee advocate organizations who pleaded for help in getting U.S. allies through the process.
But we got nowhere because Trump and Miller had watchdogs in place at the Justice Department, Homeland Security, State and other agencies that made an already cumbersome SIV process even more challenging. The system wouldn’t budge, no matter how much we argued in National Security Council meetings. The Pentagon weighed in, saying we needed to get these allies through the process. Mattis and others sent memos trying to help. We all knew the urgency, but we were blocked at every turn.
Good people within the Trump Administration tried to counter Miller's obstruction, but their fear of retaliation was palpable. Numerous closed door meetings were held, strategizing how to navigate this issue.
Trump had four years to develop a plan. We could have used that time to lay the groundwork to evacuate our Afghan allies. They were the lifelines for many of us who spent time in Afghanistan.
They’d been waiting a long time, all the while under the threat of death at the hands of the Taliban. The process slowed to a trickle for reviews and “other priorities.” Ultimately, they came to a halt.
I have one thing to say to Trump's defenders who are making blanket statements and pushing false narratives about Afghanistan: please, just stop. Some of you were actively involved in making it harder to get our Afghan allies to safety. Your comments are uninformed and hurtful. And we see right through you.
I’m grateful for everyone now advocating the urgency of getting our allies out of Afghanistan ASAP and those who are doing everything they can to help. This is a matter of national security.
Most importantly, it’s the least we can do for these individuals. The world is watching.
Olivia Troye
Director, Republican Accountability Project"
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Oh, gee.. a card-carrying Trump hater and a disgruntled former employee has spoken! Stop the presses!
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Cue the personal attacks on Olivia Troye and dismissal of anything that she says.
* Some things are so predictable, you don't need Carnac the Magnificent to divine what the future holds.
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Gee, according to you, I am just one post away from becoming an ISIS lieutenant ;D
Not at all. ISIS has a very narrow and rigid religious and political ideology which gives them a false sense of clarity and certainty. Yours seems limited to politics only.
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...
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Photoshop skills: 5
Screen capture skills: 10
Credibility: 0
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...
Yet another pitiful lie. There were no troops present when the Trump mob stormed the capital, just an inadequate number of police. And the mob was not just attacking the individual members of congress, they were attacking the seat of our democracy.
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Yet another pitiful lie. There were no troops present when the Trump mob stormed the capital, just an inadequate number of police. And the mob was not just attacking the individual members of congress, they were attacking the seat of our democracy.
;D ;D ;D
You better check your reading comprehension and the ability to process the news before accusing me of lying.
Nobody said the troops were there on 1/6. However, the troops were there throughout the rest of January.
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…
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These are weapons that it will make it easier for them to take out the Northern Alliance and other anti-Taliban forces.
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anybody can calculate the total value of all those weapons?
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anybody can calculate the total value of all those weapons?
• It’s $85 billion worth of American equipment
• 75,000 vehicles
• over 200 airplanes and helicopters
• over 600,000 small arms and light weapons
• more Black Hawk helicopters than 85% of the countries in the world
• Night vision goggles, body armour and
• biometric devices ..,
… that have the fingerprints, eye scans and the biographical information of the Afghans interpreters and support personnel trained by the coalition who fought with and alongside us over the past 20 years odd years
Names gifted to them.
How many will survive ?
https://twitter.com/johnnymerceruk/status/1430963234845118469?s=21
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Yeah, internet memes are a great source of information... until you try to find the source data. This latest meme says that the source is the GAO (General Accounting Office), but as is the usual case for internet memes no link was provided to that supposed GAO report of U.S. military equipment now in the hands of the Taliban. The "Taliban's new arsenal" as the meme headline calls it.
The key to internet memes is that you're not supposed to try and verify the information. You're supposed to swallow the bait whole and not ask questions. They are meant for eager and gullible ideologues to share thru viral social media posts or perhaps other internet gathering places (like this forum) or an email blast to all of your friends. I'm not that sort of gullible fish.
I started searching for some verification of that from the GAO website. I tried keyword searching "Afghanistan" (https://www.gao.gov/search?keyword=afghanistan)—no recent report on weapons left in Afghanistan there. I tried reports and testimony chronologically (https://www.gao.gov/reports-testimonies) or narrowed from a month ago until now (https://www.gao.gov/reports-testimonies?f%5B0%5D=date%3A2021-07-29)—still nothing.
So where is this GAO data and report for U.S. weapons which are now the "Taliban's new arsenal"? They are numbers lifted from a report that's a year old. (Carnac the Magnificent at work again predicting the future.) They are numbers from an August 10, 2017 report to the House Committee on Armed Services which summarizes all DOD procurements authorized by Congress from 2002 thru the end of Fiscal Year 2017 for Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF). It covers about 15 years worth of procurement allocations.
An important note is that these numbers are only in regard to procurement allocations—not actual delivery; not how many are still in use; not how many have been destroyed or relocated; etc. More directly to the point, it is not a report on equipment that was left behind or captured by the Taliban. How could it? It's a year old report. To quote from the report...
"We report key equipment data based on the fiscal years when DOD authorized the equipment for procurement or transfer. We did not assess the extent to which key equipment has been distributed to the ANDSF or is in use. As we have previously reported, it can take several years between the date DOD authorizes equipment for procurement and the date when the equipment is delivered to Afghanistan, and a number of additional months may pass before the ANDSF is ready to use the equipment. For example, DOD authorized the procurement of 20 light attack airplanes in fiscal year 2012 and, according to DOD documentation, the first of those aircraft were delivered to Afghanistan in 2016. As of March 2017, about 5 years after DOD authorized the procurement of the airplanes, DOD reported that the Afghan Air Force was using 12 of the airplanes in operations and that another 7 were being used for training at Moody Air Force Base in the United States."
So... some unknown person saw this public report from a year ago. They lifted the numbers from it and added some graphics. They added a headline of the "Taliban's new arsenal". Then let it loose to float around the internet for some gullible fools to post and repost wherever they could find more fish to take the bait.
There's no doubt that the Taliban has captured equipment supplied by the U.S. to the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces. How much of the equipment procured over 15 years was still in active service; was worn out and retired; or destroyed in combat; or intentionally destroyed to avoid capture; or relocated; who knows? If any one has an accounting as to what the "Taliban's new arsenal" consists of, I haven't seen it. A phony internet meme that purports to be an accounting is not what I would choose as a reliable source. Then again, I'm not some eager and gullible zealot looking to score political points.
I wouldn't expect you to just take my word and leave you without a link. You're not that gullible. You can find the entire report that I referenced here (https://www.openthebooks.com/assets/1/6/GAO_Report_-_Afghanistan_Equipment1.pdf).
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How timely and appropriate!
Yes, let’s compare two past non-events with two real explosions that just killed 200 people, 13 Americans among them.
I find it totally ironic ( boarding on really sad ) that you care about the people killed in the explosion...but mock the efforts of much of the rest of the world that fights the invisible enemy called Covid. It's taking down over 1,000 people in the US alone each and every day...yet you've consistently mocked wearing masks and other measures to try control the spread of the virus.
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• It’s $85 billion worth of American equipment...
No. It's not. Try an estimate of $28 billion (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/planes-guns-night-vision-goggles-talibans-new-us-made-war-chest-2021-08-19/) in total procurement over 15 years from 2002-2017. That $28 billion is the estimated total over many years, what's left for the Taliban is anybody's guess to make.
What's your source?
• over 200 airplanes and helicopters
• more Black Hawk helicopters than 85% of the countries in the world
Another official said that while there are no definitive numbers yet, the current intelligence assessment was that the Taliban are believed to control more than 2,000 armored vehicles, including U.S. Humvees, and up to 40 aircraft potentially including UH-60 Black Hawks, scout attack helicopters, and ScanEagle military drones.
Between 2002 and 2017, the United States gave the Afghan military an estimated $28 billion in weaponry, including guns, rockets, night-vision goggles and even small drones for intelligence gathering.
But aircraft like the Blackhawk helicopters have been the most visible sign of U.S. military assistance, and were supposed to be the Afghan military' biggest advantage over the Taliban.
Between 2003 and 2016 the United States provided Afghan forces with 208 aircraft, according to the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO).
In the last week, many of those aircraft were most useful for Afghan pilots to escape the Taliban.
One of the U.S. officials said that between 40 and 50 aircraft had been flown to Uzbekistan by Afghan pilots seeking refuge. Even before taking power in Kabul over the weekend, the Taliban had started a campaign of assassinating pilots.
Some planes were in the United States for maintenance and will stay. Those en route to Afghan forces will instead be used by the U.S. military to help in the evacuation from Kabul.
Current and former officials say that while they are concerned about the Taliban having access to the helicopters, the aircraft require frequent maintenance and many are complicated to fly without extensive training.
Again, what's your source for these claims that you're making? Outside of the Taliban and their supporters, you won't find many people enthusiastic about them having any weapons. But, that's no reason to make gross exaggerations or false assumptions. What's the point of that?
Right now, the focus is getting people out. After that, targets the size of helicopters and aircraft, which require regular maintenance and fuel in order to fly, shouldn't be too difficult for U.S. satellite and drone surveillance to identify and take out with missiles launched from drones or other forms of airstrike. Also, unless you have pilots to fly them, they aren't of much military value.
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The Taliban could sell them to our advetsaries China, Russia, Iran and others.
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Aircraft and helicopters are complicated machines that require specially trained mechanics, technicians, and parts for regular maintenance in addition to trained pilots. These aren't Chevy pickups for which you can buy parts from the local Autozone or O'Reilly Auto Parts and you don't learn to fly them by driving them to the market.
China and Russia don't need them and they already know any technology in the aircraft and helicopters with which the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces were supplied.
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No. It's not. Try an estimate of $28 billion (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/planes-guns-night-vision-goggles-talibans-new-us-made-war-chest-2021-08-19/) in total procurement over 15 years from 2002-2017. That $28 billion is the estimated total over many years, what's left for the Taliban is anybody's guess to make.
What's your source?
Again, what's your source for these claims that you're making? Outside of the Taliban and their supporters, you won't find many people enthusiastic about them having any weapons. But, that's no reason to make gross exaggerations or false assumptions. What's the point of that?
The source is very clearly linked to at the bottom of my post.
I’ve made no ‘claims’ simply restated, in writing, the claims made in the clip of the US military person, primarily for clarity.
I agree with your above post regarding ‘wild’ internet memes and unfounded claims. Johnny Mercer is UK ex-miltary, ex-Afghanistan vet, ex-Minister of Defence. He is also a current Member of Parliament and though I still wouldn’t necessarily take his word for US military finances, I would and do believe that he wouldn’t post a fabricated video clip.
The clip is no more authoritative than the meme that started this discussion.
Reject or query the content by all means (I do) but a modicum of attention ‘to what I said, not what you think I said’ combined with a smattering of common sense would have saved you the need for such an extensive rebuttal.
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I watched the 90-second video clip on Twitter that you linked in your reply to "anybody can calculate the total value of all those weapons?". It was an unnamed person reading a list from an unnamed source in front of some politicians looking to score some points and hopefully engender some outrage for their political benefit. At least that's the appearance it had for me.
I don't mind going to a modicum of effort to provide accurate information from reliable sources. I provided a link to a well balanced Reuters story in which they clearly state "there are no definitive numbers yet" and note that the $28 billion figure is "estimated". A reliable news source without hyperbole or sensationalism. I also used Google to check the $28 billion estimate from Reuters, before I posted a reply, and found the same number cited by news sources right, left, and center around the world.
Like I said before—and to which one poster replied with a description of a "flood of bloviated, pseudo intellectual, simingly [sic] eloquent" “Too early to judge” "blah, blah, blah"...
Given that it is an ongoing situation which hasn't fully played out, I'm not eager to jump to conclusions or give knee-jerk reactions. I generally prefer to wait until the dust has begun to settle and rumors, conjecture, and social media "facts" can be separated from what is actually knowable before forming some initial thoughts on a matter.
If I gave any offense in my reply, I apologize to you.
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The Taliban could sell them to our advetsaries China, Russia, Iran and others.
or to Sandy Munro.
His company, Munro & Associates specialises in tearing down automotive and aviation products to study and suggest improvements and innovations.
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If I gave any offense in my reply, I apologize to you.
No offence taken, but thank you for the courtesy of your apology. In retrospect I should have been clearer as to the nature of the exaggerated claims.
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anybody can calculate the total value of all those weapons?
But, wait, there is more!
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I find it totally ironic ( boarding on really sad ) that you care about the people killed in the explosion...but mock the efforts of much of the rest of the world that fights the invisible enemy called Covid. It's taking down over 1,000 people in the US alone each and every day...yet you've consistently mocked wearing masks and other measures to try control the spread of the virus.
;D ;D ;D
Oh, yes, by all means let’s sidetrack the discussion about Afghanistan to me and Covid.
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But, wait, there is more!
Oh, there's always more. It's the internet! A place where facts are whatever appears on a meme graphic. At least for some (https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/fish-worm-blue-looking-hook-delicious-waiting-him-to-take-bite-49605568.jpg).
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Yeah, internet memes are a great source of information... until you try to find the source data....
;D ;D ;D
You are really a funny guy!!!
Please cut the meme numbers in half. Hack, cut it to a third. It is still a STAGGERING amount of armament that was left to the enemy.
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Or... You could just check to see if what you're posting is in any way accurate by checking the source. Or... Maybe not be so gullible and eager to score political points that checking first is too much trouble. But, you do your thing your way.
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I've done all the mopping up of crap people post on the internet that I feel like doing for now. Well... Enjoy the circus here, just don't follow behind the elephants too closely.
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Or... You could just check to see if what you're posting is in any way accurate by checking the source. Or... Maybe not be so gullible and eager to score political points that checking first is too much trouble. But, you do your thing your way.
Oh, my god! The times we are living in! One can’t take seriously newspapers as a source anymore!
You heard the old adage of not being able to see the forest from the trees? Well, you are raising it to a whole new level by attempting to actually count the trees. And branches. And stumps. And fallen leaves.
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Oh, my god! The times we are living in! One can’t take seriously random crap people find on the internet as a source anymore?
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Your attempts to be funny are just as funny as Biden’s attempts to be President.
You are really a funny guy!!!
Although you can't seem to make up your mind whether or not I'm funny... Biden is still President.
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Not a meme. BBC:
Afghanistan: Black Hawks and Humvees - military kit now with the Taliban https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58356045
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Changing tack somewhat to keep an eye on the mood and views on the other side of the Atlantic …
The UK Parliament was recalled for an urgent debate on the Afghan crisis back in August. On Wednesday, September 1 , the UK Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, will be questioned by a cross-party committee of MPs , chaired by Tom Tugendhat. Expected to be a lively session, Raab is not someone who currently enjoys an excess of respect or support.
I have linked below to Tugendhat’s speech in the parliamentary debate. You’ll need to scrub forward to 11:23:35 , it lasts some 7 minutes, earned a standing ovation from both sides of the house and plaudits later.
Also highly recommended, is Tobias Elwood, ex-military, US/UK dual national. Some 6 minutes starting at 11:38:17 .
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/392a628b-beda-4bc1-91df-584f2a1cdf90
The last British soldiers flew out of Afghanistan last night as a vitriolic blame game erupted in Whitehall over efforts to save thousands more Afghans who are trapped at the mercy of the Taliban.
Ministers and officials accused the Foreign Office of negligence in preparing escape routes and claimed that up to 9,000 people who could have been eligible for rescue would be left behind.
But with Boris Johnson pushing for more rescue efforts to save those who remain, ministers and officials traded blows over whether there was a feasible plan.
Anyone who gets to a third country and qualifies for the resettlement scheme for former British staff will be offered a free flight to the UK. But the neighbouring countries of Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan are reluctant to provide free passage.
It was also claimed that the decision by Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, to remain on holiday at the start of the crisis cost vital days that meant up to 1,000 people have not been evacuated who otherwise would have been.
Last night a senior official in the Pakistani government said Raab had shown no interest in talking to them, claiming that he did not make a single phone call to the Afghan or Pakistani foreign ministers in the six months before the crisis. “He just didn’t care,” the official said. “He thought Afghanistan was yesterday’s war and the government was totally focused on Brexit.”
In a move nicknamed “Uber escapes”, security sources said that local drivers are being contracted to take those at risk through Taliban checkpoints to land borders with neighbouring countries. But insiders said this had already led to extortion by people traffickers demanding $25,000 per person to provide safe passage out.
Source: The Times (UK)
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... Source: The Times (UK)
The same source as for the "internet meme" about lost armaments I posted earlier. Tsk, tsk, tsk. ;)
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Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, to remain on holiday at the start of the crisis
As well as Biden (whose mind has been on holiday for quite some time), his press secretary Psaki (silent "P" and silent conscience), and his Secretary of State "Dangerous to America" Blinken.
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Not a meme. BBC:
Afghanistan: Black Hawks and Humvees - military kit now with the Taliban https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58356045
Did you actually read the article that you linked? What do you intend this latest chart to represent? What do you intend for the other chart of aircraft at the top of the page to represent? It isn't clear what to make of pictures of aircraft with numbers.
Well, at least you left a link to the source finally; so that anyone curious enough and willing to read the BBC article carefully will know for certain that your charts are NOT a representation of any number or type of aircraft that the Taliban have captured. Because right now no one knows how many aircraft; or what type; or what condition any captured may be in; or whether any are operational; or *how many were flown out of Afghanistan; or much of anything else regarding the subject at the moment.
*The BBC article does link to a tweet regarding Afghan military aircraft flown out of Afghanistan (https://twitter.com/CSIS/status/1430986741826076678) from the CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies).
** For anyone interested in a serious point of view regarding how we came to the current situation in Afghanistan, I would recommend reading this article (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2021-08-16/we-all-lost-afghanistan-taliban) in Foreign Policy by P. Michael McKinley (U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan in 2014–16. Also has served as U.S. Ambassador to Brazil, Colombia, and Peru and as Senior Adviser to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.) I'm not endorsing his viewpoint, but it's a refreshing change from internet memes and political babble.
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... know for certain that your charts are NOT a representation of any number or type of aircraft that the Taliban have captured. Because right now no one knows how many ...
;D ;D ;D
Let me know when you decide is it "knowing for certain" or "no one knows."
Btw, those were not my charts, but of The Times, The Sunday Times, and the BBC.
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Do you need help with reading comprehension? You might start by reading complete sentences in their entirety and in the order they are presented to understand context. Context is always a good thing.
The charts were posted by you. It is opaque as to what you're representing them to mean. Perhaps you didn't know what they represented and just hung them out to encourage viewers to jump to conclusions—a favorite pastime of some.
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... Perhaps you didn't know what they represented and just hung them out to encourage viewers to jump to conclusions...
Maybe I didn't know. Maybe to encourage viewers to interpret them as any intelligent viewer would, taking into account the very legend: in-country usable aircraft as of 30 June THIS year, according to the US Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction.
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An intelligent viewer would likely ignore your memes and charts. The chart of planes and numbers at the top of the page has no date reference and is accompanied by your excited response of "But, wait, there is more!" in reply to the question of "anybody can calculate the total value of all those weapons?" That question was in regard to the phony "Taliban's new arsenal" meme you graciously shared with us. So the intention there?
Well, like I said, an intelligent viewer would likely ignore your memes and charts. I'm not always that smart and occasionally look at some garbage like the "Taliban's new arsenal" meme and wonder—where did that crap originate?
Your last chart does have a date on it as you mentioned which is right under the words "forces have?". At least this time there was a link to the source, so maybe it's progress.
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I don't have access to the American Pravda's original article, but apparently the news originated there:
https://dailycaller.com/2021/08/29/taliban-deal-control-kabul-us-rejected-washington-post/
The head of the Taliban’s political wing presented the U.S. with an option to secure Kabul in the aftermath of President Ashraf Ghani’s hasty departure, but President Joe Biden’s administration declined the offer, a Saturday report said.
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TechTalk's efforts to relativize Biden's staggering transfer of armaments to the enemy reminds me of the following meme:
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TechTalk's efforts to relativize Biden's staggering transfer of armaments to the enemy reminds me of the following meme:
How to trivialise a serious topic.
Just curious what your tolerance level is for juvenile knee-jerk posts lacking any substantive depth before allowing the "discussion" to migrate to the swamp where it belongs.
Not convinced about ‘migrating’ but certainly a ‘pause’ is called for.
Let us hope the evacuation completes with no further casualties.
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While some freedom fighters are engaging in Internet pissing contests, here is a recent story how one concerned and commited man helped several Afghan families to escape from Afghanistan to Pakistan using his own money, bunch of willing strangers and social media. Dave Lee is a well known youtuber concentrating on investment topics and Tesla technology.
Duration: 1 hour, well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZ-JMYi-DQ
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The story (linked above) of Shogofa's family and their first attempts to cross the border into Pakistan, while her mother and siblings were sick, was a reminder that among the problems in Afghanistan, they are experiencing a major third wave of COVID (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/02/1010386264/a-crippling-third-wave-of-covid-adds-to-afghanistans-woes). The story was also a reminder that the population of Afghanistan consists of many different ethnic groups (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Afghanistan), subcultures, and languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Afghanistan).
This National Geographic map (https://media.nationalgeographic.org/assets/photos/000/329/32912.jpg) of ethnic regions in Afghanistan and Pakistan is illustrative of the complexity of that region. When you hear or see news reports for instance that refer to the "Pashtun Region", the map illustrates that one ethnic group dominates a major portion of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Further south, the Baloch ethnic group dominates the southern border regions of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_people#/media/File:Major_ethnic_groups_of_Pakistan_in_1980.jpg).
Ethnic groups that span national borders are found more broadly throughout all of the Middle East (https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4232063/Mid_East_Ethnic_lg.png). For an even more thorough examination of the complex history and current ethnic and political borders of the Middle East there is the Vox article 40 maps that explain the Middle East (https://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east).
The resulting tensions and wars, both civil and cross border, are not unique to the Middle East. The 20th Century gave us multiple wars in Europe enflamed by ethnic border tensions or minorities within states, and some of those tensions still linger. Slobodan is likely much more aware of this than anyone else here. I mention this only for those that may think that people living in the Middle East are somehow different in that regard. And since I mentioned Slobodan, I'll just say for the record that even when I think that he's utterly and completely wrong or has a blind spot on some topic, I do respect his intelligence even when we totally disagree.
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For those interested in watching the proceedings ‘live’, below is a link to the UK parliament feed of the special session of the FAC (Foreign Affairs Committee). Scheduled to commence at 2:00 pm, London time.
The UK Parliament was recalled for an urgent debate on the Afghan crisis back in August. On Wednesday, September 1 , the UK Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, will be questioned by a cross-party committee of MPs , chaired by Tom Tugendhat. Expected to be a lively session, Raab is not someone who currently enjoys an excess of respect or support.
One interesting point which may possibly be raised is why Biden ‘allegedly’ refused to take Johnson’s calls for 36 hours during the evacuation. Unsure at what point during the evacuation this occurred, if indeed it did, but it isn’t helping that illusory ‘special relationship’
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/44d918e3-3be5-41ae-994b-d6384a554327
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On another note:
Campaigners tonight say it is believed only half of the 69 female Afghan MPs made it out of the country. The rest are still there and in hiding, after not been offered an evacuation place (7)
Many of these women spent 20 years being the Taliban’s most vocal critics. One UK MP has spoken to a female Afghan MP. She says she is now in her 3rd safe house with her husband and children. The Taliban raided her home in Kabul, destroyed everything and hung her dog.
She is certain to be killed if the Taliban find her. "Shooting is the best she can hope for, but they will brutalise her first," the UK MP says. Her only hope now is a visa to the UK and safe passage out. But despite repeated pleas, the Home Office have failed to issue one
It seems inexplicable why this female Afghan MP and her 68 colleagues weren’t put to the top of the evacuation lists. Lawyers have set a 2pm deadline tomorrow for visas or they will begin legal action under Art 2, ECHR, to force them.
Source: Tom Newton-Dunn
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1432824522646904835?s=21
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While some freedom fighters are engaging in Internet pissing contests, here is a recent story how one concerned and commited man helped several Afghan families to escape from Afghanistan to Pakistan using his own money, bunch of willing strangers and social media. Dave Lee is a well known youtuber concentrating on investment topics and Tesla technology.
Duration: 1 hour, well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZ-JMYi-DQ
It's embarrassing as an American that private individuals are doing more than my government. I just hope the Taliban doesn't implement harsh penalties against their former enemies. Can we expect to find a Lincoln among them who pardoned the South at the end of our own Civil War and invited them back into the union again as brothers? The nature of Afghan tribal animosities makes that unlikely. But let's hope they have changed at least somewhat.
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On another note...
Yes, the plight of women in Afghanistan, that is, those that do not want a Taliban/Sharia rule, is terrible and I do feel sorry for them on an individual level.
However... is it really the West that needed to take care of them? Should we be the last ones to be concerned about their fate and safety? Each of these women has a brother, father, son, or husband that should be concerned much more than us and fight for their safety and future. Each of the 300,000 strong military and security men has a sister, daughter, wife, or mother to fight for. And they had everything material they needed to do so. And yet...
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. . . is it really the West that needed to take care of them? Should we be the last ones to be concerned about their fate and safety?
Be careful! You're sounding suspiciously like Biden.
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And yet...
Should they be more concerned than us ? The failure is ours.
We can and will touch on why the Afghan army and security services dispersed so quickly, but that does not serve as an excuse let alone justification for NATO to simply wash its hands and abandon the many Afghans who looked upon the West for salvation, took us at our word, adapted to our way of life. Many Afghans, not just the females, have every justification to feel abandoned.
Vast amounts of cash were spent to prop up the occupation and convince Afghans that NATO would create a democracy proofed against resurgent Islamic fundamentalism. Many have never known anything other than our Western values - so having a parent, a sibling or other relative doesn’t shift the moral obligation.
To paraphrase JFK ‘Victory has many parents, defeat is an orphan’. When things went well, the west trumpeted its values and we congratulated and lauded ourselves ad infinitum. The political slogans triggered the downfall.
So, yes, we should ‘be concerned with their safety’.
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;D ;D ;D
Nobody said the troops were there on 1/6. However, the troops were there throughout the rest of January.
Read your graphic.
The screen cap says “number of troops deployed…to protect against flag waving Trump supporters.”
Clearly attempting to indicate Jan 06.
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Should they be more concerned than us ? The failure is ours.
We can and will touch on why the Afghan army and security services dispersed so quickly, but that does not serve as an excuse let alone justification for NATO to simply wash its hands and abandon the many Afghans who looked upon the West for salvation, took us at our word, adapted to our way of life. Many Afghans, not just the females, have every justification to feel abandoned.
Vast amounts of cash were spent to prop up the occupation and convince Afghans that NATO would create a democracy proofed against resurgent Islamic fundamentalism. Many have never known anything other than our Western values - so having a parent, a sibling or other relative doesn’t shift the moral obligation.
To paraphrase JFK ‘Victory has many parents, defeat is an orphan’. When things went well, the west trumpeted its values and we congratulated and lauded ourselves ad infinitum. The political slogans triggered the downfall.
So, yes, we should ‘be concerned with their safety’.
I don't think the failure is ours. We tried for twenty years. But in the end, they apparently weren't interested in defending what we gave them. That's on them, not us. We do owe protection to the people who worked with us because their lives are at stake and we made promises to them. But for the rest, who are not threatened by the Taliban, they'll have to live with the society they chose until they're ready to fight for something different.
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I don't think the failure is ours. We tried for twenty years. But in the end, they apparently weren't interested in defending what we gave them.
The drawdown of the Afghan military and security services is very much a ‘to be reviewed’ subject.
Robert Roaldi posted a link in #31 to an interview with a retired UK general where he made the point subsequently seconded by others , General Petraeus included, that the Afghan army and security personnel lost X5 the deaths, x3 the casualties of the NATO forces and gave a different perspective on the drawdown.
I’d warn against adopting such simplistic and convenient reasoning until a full post mortem has been held.
But for the rest, who are not threatened by the Taliban, they'll have to live with the society they chose until they're ready to fight for something different.
The great majority, if not all , didn’t choose, they were born into it.
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Read your graphic.
The screen cap says “number of troops deployed…to protect against flag waving Trump supporters.”
Clearly attempting to indicate Jan 06.
No.
If you remember correctly, the troops were brought in and kept there for almost a month IN FEAR of another protest and potential rioting by Trump supporters during Biden's inauguration. That's what the meme indicates. Otherwise, it would be really stupid to imply 1/6, as everyone knows there were no troops on that day, not in any significant number or at critical locations anyway.
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... But in the end, they apparently weren't interested in defending what we gave them. ...
Did they ask you to give them anything? Just sayin'. :)
It's difficult not to be cynical here. Whatever it was you "gave them" over 20 years, it did not include an honest government or a rebuilt nation. If what you "gave them" had been more enduring, would it have collapsed this quickly? I think it's difficult to claim that what you "gave them" was very good. This somehow reminds me of those absurd dog and pony shows of drug and arms busts on the part of law enforcement, when everyone knows that boatloads of the stuff makes it to customers every day. My point is, if it's not obvious, what's real here and what's self-delusion?
How much of the reconstruction money went to rebuild the human infrastructure in Afghanistan and how much went into the pockets of US contractors? I don't know the answer to that question, but shouldn't the question be asked? Until you get an answer you can trust, it might be premature to assume that you "gave them" anything.
And not in answer to your post but more generally, I appreciate the concern over Afghani women. I even believe that there are some people who actually care, but I also believe that much of what we see in the media is the usual partisan politicking too, and good luck separating out the motives. The thing is, what about the women in Saudi Arabia? Or Palestine? Or Yemen? Or the ones in Iran before the US helped overthrow the government there, which led to the Shah, which led to the fundamentalist "revolution/takeover"? Don't those women count? (And to be polite and to keep the thread on topic, I'll leave out the fate of women in the US who happen to live in states that for largely religious/political reasons are passing regulations that affect their reproduction rights.)
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Should they be more concerned than us ? The failure is ours.
We can and will touch on why the Afghan army and security services dispersed so quickly, but that does not serve as an excuse let alone justification for NATO to simply wash its hands and abandon the many Afghans who looked upon the West for salvation, took us at our word, adapted to our way of life. Many Afghans, not just the females, have every justification to feel abandoned.
Vast amounts of cash were spent to prop up the occupation and convince Afghans that NATO would create a democracy proofed against resurgent Islamic fundamentalism. Many have never known anything other than our Western values - so having a parent, a sibling or other relative doesn’t shift the moral obligation.
To paraphrase JFK ‘Victory has many parents, defeat is an orphan’. When things went well, the west trumpeted its values and we congratulated and lauded ourselves ad infinitum. The political slogans triggered the downfall.
So, yes, we should ‘be concerned with their safety’.
As you are probably well aware, not only victory has many parents etc., but also truth has many facets. One of those angles is what you wrote above, and I actually tend to agree with that, up to a point. That point being that such a view is not an exclusive one, but just one of the many facets of a complex problem.
In other words, both my angle and your angle could stand, without cancelling each other.
I still believe that it is a primary responsibility of a country's population to fight for and defend the way of life they want. Especially if they are given means to do so.
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Did they ask you to give them anything? Just sayin'. :)
It's difficult not to be cynical here. Whatever it was you "gave them" over 20 years, it did not include an honest government or a rebuilt nation. If what you "gave them" had been more enduring, would it have collapsed this quickly? I think it's difficult to claim that what you "gave them" was very good. This somehow reminds me of those absurd dog and pony shows of drug and arms busts on the part of law enforcement, when everyone knows that boatloads of the stuff makes it to customers every day. My point is, if it's not obvious, what's real here and what's self-delusion?
How much of the reconstruction money went to rebuild the human infrastructure in Afghanistan and how much went into the pockets of US contractors? I don't know the answer to that question, but shouldn't the question be asked? Until you get an answer you can trust, it might be premature to assume that you "gave them" anything.
And not in answer to your post but more generally, I appreciate the concern over Afghani women. I even believe that there are some people who actually care, but I also believe that much of what we see in the media is the usual partisan politicking too, and good luck separating out the motives. The thing is, what about the women in Saudi Arabia? Or Palestine? Or Yemen? Or the ones in Iran before the US helped overthrow the government there, which led to the Shah, which led to the fundamentalist "revolution/takeover"? Don't those women count? (And to be polite and to keep the thread on topic, I'll leave out the fate of women in the US who happen to live in states that for largely religious/political reasons are passing regulations that affect their reproduction rights.)
America didn't have to give them squat. We went there in arms because they attacked us in war on 9-11. They used their land as a staging ground to attack us. They protected the very terrorist groups and leader, Osama Bin Laden, who organized the attack and then Afghanistan continued to protect them afterwards. We owed them nothing. You're forgetting why we were there. The only ones we owe protection to are the Afghans who personally supported us in arms and their families. In any case it was Biden who pulled out all our military that could protect them. What can we do once our military is gone?
We spent a trillion dollars trying to give them democracy and enlighten their culture. We gave them billions to improve their country and defend themselves against the same terrorists. If there was corruption, and there was, most of it was Afghans who stole half the money we gave them. The president ran away at the first sign of danger with over $100 million in cash. In the end, they weren't willing to fight for what we gave them. That's unfortunate and I feel sorry for the many Afghans who will now suffer. But they didn't step up to the plate. The Taliban walked-in into Kabul without firing a shot. The Afghan army layed down their arms and uniforms and walked away. Maybe the men are happy with their women covered up. I don't know. But they didn't feel it was worth fighting for. So how much can we do?
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America didn't have to give them squat. We went there in arms because they attacked us in war on 9-11. They used their land as a staging ground to attack us. They protected the very terrorist groups and leader, Osama Bin Laden, who organized the attack and then Afghanistan continued to protect them afterwards. We owed them nothing. You're forgetting why we were there. The only ones we owe protection to are the Afghans who personally supported us in arms and their families. In any case it was Biden who pulled out all our military that could protect them. What can we do once our military is gone?
We spent a trillion dollars trying to give them democracy and enlighten their culture. We gave them billions to improve their country and defend themselves against the same terrorists. If there was corruption, and there was, most of it was Afghans who stole half the money we gave them. The president ran away at the first sign of danger with over $100 million in cash. In the end, they weren't willing to fight for what we gave them. That's unfortunate and I feel sorry for the many Afghans who will now suffer. But they didn't step up to the plate. The Taliban walked-in into Kabul without firing a shot. The Afghan army layed down their arms and uniforms and walked away. Maybe the men are happy with their women covered up. I don't know. But they didn't feel it was worth fighting for. So how much can we do?
I was suggesting that what you think you "gave them" wasn't what you actually "gave them" but that didn't penetrate the force field and we talked past each other. It's ok, it doesn't matter.
Love your phrase "We spent a trillion dollars trying to give them democracy and enlighten their culture." Judging from the recent political climate, I would suggest spending some on yourselves for the same reasons. :)
Here's someone else's view, https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/ (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/).
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I was suggesting that what you think you "gave them" wasn't what you actually "gave them" but that didn't penetrate the force field and we talked past each other. It's ok, it doesn't matter.
Love your phrase "We spent a trillion dollars trying to give them democracy and enlighten their culture." Judging from the recent political climate, I would suggest spending some on yourselves for the same reasons. :)
Here's someone else's view, https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/ (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/).
Nation building and spreading American culture is a favorite pastime of us dreamy Americans, especially after we blow the place up. In the old days, conquerors would kill all the men and enslave all the women and children to assure their old adversary wouldn't come back. Because we're civilized today and don't do those things, wars never end. "I'll be back" is not only the phrase of humanoids from the future. It seems our enemies never die.
You think we would have learned from Vietnam. But that was an older generation although both Trump and Biden remember it well. They both agreed we didn't belong in Afghanistan. Maybe we should have just leveled Afghan cities, and air fields, and killed all their leaders, but not getting involved beyond that. Leave their nation in cinders. Then we wouldn't hear from them again for two hundred years, save a trillion and countless American lives, and save other lives too. Our wars are too antiseptic today and never end as we fight insurgencies with one hand tied behind our back and nation build. What a waste. We never learn.
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Here's someone else's view, https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/ (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/11/harvard-professor-stephen-walt-urges-shift-in-u-s-foreign-policy/).
That's a depressing way to look at how the world works. I take issue with one question/response in particular:
GAZETTE: Is there a danger that if the U.S. shifts to a more restrained foreign policy, the vacuum would be filled by nations that do not support liberal values?
WALT: I think that idea is mistaken. The United States has not been able to dictate politics in many parts of the world, despite repeated and sometimes costly efforts. As powerful as we are, we don’t control the evolution of local politics and political alignments in most of the world. We have some influence, but we have not been able to dictate what happens in the Middle East, we can’t determine the fate of Afghanistan after 17 years of war, we have not been able to steer the politics of a country like Hungary or Poland, which are moving in an illiberal direction. If the world’s most powerful country cannot do that, then other countries are not going to be able to do that either. We can do a lot to shape the balance of power in critical areas, but our ability to mold the politics of these regions and tell other countries how to organize their societies is very limited.
Walt says no, but I think the answer is overwhelmingly "yes," and while I understand the "realpolitik" of it all, I'm not sure it's wise to totally give up on western idealism. He says that we, "...can’t determine the fate of Afghanistan after 17 years of war, we have not been able to steer the politics of a country like Hungary or Poland, which are moving in an illiberal direction.."
I would disagree that we couldn't determine the fate of Afghanistan - we simply didn't want to pay the price anymore. The fact remains, for example, that women in Afghanistan WERE in the workforce, WERE in universities, WERE in government. We DID steer the politics of Afghanistan in a positive direction, all thanks to what, at the end, really was a fairly small presence - smaller or on par with the people we have stationed in multiple other places around the globe. Imagine what could have happened if we'd allowed this generation of Afghani people to rise into positions of leadership, instead of throwing them back under the boot of religious fundamentalism.
As for steering the politics of Poland or Hungary (or Turkey), yes, there are limits when dealing with a nominally democratic nation that simply votes "wrong." And while I'm not sure that the slide of those three nations toward a more authoritarian bent is indicative of a failure of American foreign policy, I AM sure that disengagement from the EU, and the corresponding removal of the financial and cultural influence we DO maintain there isn't going to stop the slide into "illiberalism." (Edit: That assumes, of course, that what we are "selling" is in fact positive, and not, instead, tacit support for radical nationalism.)
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That's a depressing way to look at how the world works. I take issue with one question/response in particular:
Walt says no, but I think the answer is overwhelmingly "yes," and while I understand the "realpolitik" of it all, I'm not sure it's wise to totally give up on western idealism. He says that we, "...can’t determine the fate of Afghanistan after 17 years of war, we have not been able to steer the politics of a country like Hungary or Poland, which are moving in an illiberal direction.."
I would disagree that we couldn't determine the fate of Afghanistan - we simply didn't want to pay the price anymore. The fact remains, for example, that women in Afghanistan WERE in the workforce, WERE in universities, WERE in government. We DID steer the politics of Afghanistan in a positive direction, all thanks to what, at the end, really was a fairly small presence - smaller or on par with the people we have stationed in multiple other places around the globe. Imagine what could have happened if we'd allowed this generation of Afghani people to rise into positions of leadership, instead of throwing them back under the boot of religious fundamentalism.
As for steering the politics of Poland or Hungary (or Turkey), yes, there are limits when dealing with a nominally democratic nation that simply votes "wrong." And while I'm not sure that the slide of those three nations toward a more authoritarian bent is indicative of a failure of American foreign policy, I AM sure that disengagement from the EU, and the corresponding removal of the financial and cultural influence we DO maintain there isn't going to stop the slide into "illiberalism." (Edit: That assumes, of course, that what we are "selling" is in fact positive, and not, instead, tacit support for radical nationalism.)
James, You're swaying me back to nation building. But we always seem to get into a mess when we do. Nation building only seems to work in total war like WWII in Japan and Germany and then when we leave troops. Of course, I wonder what would happen if we pulled out? As far as paying the price, the fact is we can't afford it anymore. At one time we were the world's leading creditor nation. Now we're the world's leading debtor nation, $30 trillion in debt at home. We're printing 55% of the money we use in our budget. We're broke. Americans are tired of their sons, and now daughters, bleeding and dying. We're still embarrassed by losing and offended by cowardly acts, regardless the cost. Hence the neurotic bi-polar reaction to what just happened in Afghanistan.
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No.
If you remember correctly, the troops were brought in and kept there for almost a month IN FEAR of another protest and potential rioting by Trump supporters during Biden's inauguration. That's what the meme indicates. Otherwise, it would be really stupid to imply 1/6, as everyone knows there were no troops on that day, not in any significant number or at critical locations anyway.
Even though there were near-zero "flag waving Trump supporters" after January 1.
Like I said: Good Photoshop and screen capture skills, but zero credibility.
Just like when you said "Wake me when it hits 60K"
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Even though there were near-zero "flag waving Trump supporters" after January 1.
You really have problems with reading comprehension. Which part of what I wrote ("in FEAR of flag-waving Trump supporters") you didn't get? In your opinion, what were 26,000 troops doing in DC after 1/6, through the end of January?
Furthermore, even when the troops were gone, the fence surrounding the Capitol remained six months after the riots. Why, in your opinion, the fence was there, if not in FEAR of Trump supporters?
Should I further explain to you that the concept "in fear of" doesn't mean the fear has to materialize?
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... women in Afghanistan WERE in the workforce, WERE in universities, WERE in government...
Yes - in the '80s already, under a pro-communist regime... until Americans decided to help mujahedins overthrow it.
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That's a depressing way to look at how the world works. I take issue with one question/response in particular:
Walt says no, but I think the answer is overwhelmingly "yes," and while I understand the "realpolitik" of it all, I'm not sure it's wise to totally give up on western idealism. He says that we, "...can’t determine the fate of Afghanistan after 17 years of war, we have not been able to steer the politics of a country like Hungary or Poland, which are moving in an illiberal direction.."
I would disagree that we couldn't determine the fate of Afghanistan - we simply didn't want to pay the price anymore. The fact remains, for example, that women in Afghanistan WERE in the workforce, WERE in universities, WERE in government. We DID steer the politics of Afghanistan in a positive direction, all thanks to what, at the end, really was a fairly small presence - smaller or on par with the people we have stationed in multiple other places around the globe. Imagine what could have happened if we'd allowed this generation of Afghani people to rise into positions of leadership, instead of throwing them back under the boot of religious fundamentalism.
As for steering the politics of Poland or Hungary (or Turkey), yes, there are limits when dealing with a nominally democratic nation that simply votes "wrong." And while I'm not sure that the slide of those three nations toward a more authoritarian bent is indicative of a failure of American foreign policy, I AM sure that disengagement from the EU, and the corresponding removal of the financial and cultural influence we DO maintain there isn't going to stop the slide into "illiberalism." (Edit: That assumes, of course, that what we are "selling" is in fact positive, and not, instead, tacit support for radical nationalism.)
That "western ideal" of spreading liberal (in the non-partisan sense) ideas can be compromised very quickly by one or two cynical US-backed puppet military juntas and one Vietnam, so that pretty soon nobody believes the sales pitch anymore. I'm saying that they have a LOT of reasons to be cynical, and you can't blame them.
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Yes - in the '80s already, under a pro-communist regime... until Americans decided to help mujahedins overthrow it.
From what I've read, in the first half of the 20th Iran was also on the way to becoming a modern secular state (relatively speaking) with women entering the work force, etc., until various foreign powers stuck their noses in.
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James, You're swaying me back to nation building. But we always seem to get into a mess when we do. Nation building only seems to work in total war like WWII in Japan and Germany and then when we leave troops. Of course, I wonder what would happen if we pulled out? As far as paying the price, the fact is we can't afford it anymore. At one time we were the world's leading creditor nation. Now we're the world's leading debtor nation, $30 trillion in debt at home. We're printing 55% of the money we use in our budget. We're broke. Americans are tired of their sons, and now daughters, bleeding and dying. We're still embarrassed by losing and offended by cowardly acts, regardless the cost. Hence the neurotic bi-polar reaction to what just happened in Afghanistan.
What people say in idealistic speeches does not always match what happens on the ground, especially a few years and an election or two later.
The original reason for going to Afghanistan was in military response to the terrorist attacks and the US did so with the cooperation of many allies and the sanction of the UN. There are too many twists and turns afterward for me to remember, never mind explain (I mean, what do I know?) but it's pretty obvious that a consistent strategy wasn't maintained over the 20 years. With governments and ideologies changing every 4 to 8 years, at least, the odds of the US being good at long-term multi-generational "nation building" are so long that it may be fool's errand for them to try.
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... The fact remains, for example, that women in Afghanistan WERE in the workforce, WERE in universities, WERE in government. We DID steer the politics of Afghanistan in a positive direction, ...
But then something like this happens, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court).
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But then something like this happens, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court).
Oh, I doubt the Taliban are as reprehensible as the Texas GOP, but I guess I could be proven wrong.
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From what I've read, in the first half of the 20th Iran was also on the way to becoming a modern secular state (relatively speaking) with women entering the work force, etc., until various foreign powers stuck their noses in.
I think it's reasonable to look at intervention and draw a conclusion that foreign interference gives the more regressive/authoritarian/nativist elements a convenient target to fight and rally against. I'm just not sure that the movement toward religious fundamentalism is quite as simple as that cause/effect would imply.
I'm sure there are a wide range of studies that examine why cultures accept or even welcome theocratic (or nationalistic) authoritarianism, but my recollection of the things I've read on the subject is that the circumstances that allow that start internally, and the foreign presence is simply a convenient rallying point.
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I think it's reasonable to look at intervention and draw a conclusion that foreign interference gives the more regressive/authoritarian/nativist elements a convenient target to fight and rally against. I'm just not sure that the movement toward religious fundamentalism is quite as simple as that cause/effect would imply.
...
I'm sure you're right. I'm the last person to think that my short rant explains anything very thoroughly.
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Oh, I doubt the Taliban are as reprehensible as the Texas GOP, but I guess I could be proven wrong.
:)
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... And since I mentioned Slobodan, I'll just say for the record that even when I think that he's utterly and completely wrong or has a blind spot on some topic, I do respect his intelligence even when we totally disagree.
Noted and appreciated. The same here.
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But then something like this happens, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/01/texas-abortion-law-supreme-court).
Although this is a tangent, for the record, I am against the TX abortion law on many levels and hope it will be overturned by the SCOTUS in due time. Not that I think anyone cares what I am for or against, mind you.
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Not that I think anyone cares what I am for or against, mind you.
If people didn't care, people wouldn't engage :) I think we can have challenging discussions, for enjoyment if nothing else, even if the net effect on the world at large is zero ;)
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Episode 258 of the Making Sense podcast with Sam Harris covers much of this ground in a conversation with Peter Bergen, https://samharris.org/podcasts/258-fall-afghanistan/ (https://samharris.org/podcasts/258-fall-afghanistan/).
For those not familiar with this podcast, note that only the first hour or so is available for free. Entire episodes are behind a paywall except for some selected ones that he deems to be PSAs.
From the blurb on the linked page: "In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Peter Bergen about the US exit from Afghanistan, the resurgence of the Taliban, and his new book, “The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden.” They discuss the Neo-isolationist consensus on the Right and Left, the legitimacy of our initial involvement in Afghanistan, our ethical obligations to our Afghan allies, Biden’s disastrous messaging, the weakness of the Afghan army, the advantages of the Taliban, the implications for global jihadism, the relationship between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, how Osama bin Laden came to lead al-Qaeda, bin Laden’s sincere religious convictions, our failure to capture bin Laden at Tora Bora, the distraction of the war in Iraq, the myth that the CIA funded al-Qaeda, bin Laden’s wives, his years of hiding in Pakistan, his death at the hands of US Special Forces, and other topics.
Peter Bergen is the author or editor of nine books, including three New York Times bestsellers and four Washington Post best nonfiction books of the year. His most recent book is The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden. Bergen is a Vice President at New America, a professor at Arizona State University, and a national security analyst for CNN. He has testified before congressional committees eighteen times about national security issues and has held teaching positions at Harvard and Johns Hopkins University."
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You really have problems with reading comprehension.
You have hurled that epithet many times. Could it possibly be that you have problems with output?
Should I further explain to you that the concept "in fear of" doesn't mean the fear has to materialize?
No