Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: petermfiore on February 24, 2020, 09:12:04 am
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So Bernie defends Castro's Literacy program in Cuba...OOOPS!!!??!!???!! This should help his chances.
Peter
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Wonder why the Dems are in a panic.
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He actually said "Just because it was Castro, doesn't make it a bad thing". Hitler did take Germany out of it's depression and Mussolini did make the trains run on time.
I believe Castro even petted a dog once.
What
Peter
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Castro taught them to read then didn't let them read the books they wanted to read. Burned them in fact. Literate, uneducated people without freedom. What good is literacy if you remain uneducated? But the anti-Trump leftist press won't call Bernie on his comments. After all, it's the same rationale they use to to justify Castro's dictatorship of Cuba.
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If the candidates dont eviscerate Bernie in the next debate over this, then I have lost all hope and respect for the Democratic party.
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If the candidate dont eviscerate Bernie in the next debate over this, then I have lost all hope and respect for the Democratic party.
Ted Cruz on Bernie and Castro
"It really makes a difference when those you murder at the firing squad can read & write."
https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1231762113141649408
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When it comes to medical education, Cuba's approach with a strong focus on primary care has been pretty good and quite effective. And they do it without students loans.
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If the candidates dont eviscerate Bernie in the next debate over this, then I have lost all hope and respect for the Democratic party.
Well, at the last debate, Bloomberg called Bernie a Communist. Warren got more upset about that then Bernie. It might come from Buttigieg as he's already made his point how Bernie is outside the mainstream. With Bernie doing so well, I expect everyone, maybe even Warren, will jump on him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u30AE7V-5-Q
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When it comes to medical education, Cuba's approach with a strong focus on primary care has been pretty good and quite effective. And they do it without students loans.
How can you defend Castro? Don;t fall into the leftist argument. It's just silly. So after they break your arms for trying to read books the Communist regime outlaws, they send you to a hospital to fix your broken arms for free. What good is free medical care if you're not free as a human being?
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When it comes to medical education, Cuba's approach with a strong focus on primary care has been pretty good and quite effective. And they do it without students loans.
And they even manage to export them here to Mallorca: I have had a Cuban doctor once or twice, and she was perfectly good in her treatment of me. My wife had a Cuban oncologist once, too, but that was on private care.
Rob
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And they even manage to export them here to Mallorca: I have had a Cuban doctor once or twice, and she was perfectly good in her treatment of me. My wife had a Cuban oncologist once, too, but that was on private care.
Rob
I wonder how many regular Cubans will be visiting Mallorca this year?
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He actually said "Just because it was Castro, doesn't make it a bad thing". Hitler did take Germany out of it's depression and Mussolini did make the trains run on time.
I believe Castro even petted a dog once.
What
Peter
Peter, Britain could do with a Mussolini too: somebody needs to get those trains working properly! Instead, they are going to spend 200 billion fish making better rail connections between the north and London, which will only serve to make it easier for the northerners to leave the north, not create new jobs in the north, whereas improving local infrastructure instead of thinking about London, would perhaps manage to create those jobs.
Indirectly, and at great cost, Hitler did just that: after the war which he lost, the Marshall Plan helped rebuild all those old factories with spanking new ones, and now those who can replace their Caddies with a Mercedes often will. Man, they even managed to buy Rolls-Royce and Bentley. So who won what?
I patted a dog once, too. But it was my own.
;-)
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How can you defend Castro? Don;t fall into the leftist argument. It's just silly. So after they break your arms for trying to read books the Communist regime outlaws, they send you to a hospital to fix your broken arms for free. What good is free medical care if you're not free as a human being?
I'm not defending Castro, but is is remarkable how such a poor country can produce so many competent medical doctors and practitioners. They have 13 medical universities and they train also many students from other countries. Their medical system puts also a lot of emphasis on preventive care which saves lo of money and pain in the long run, whereas the western style GP's tend to push more pill consumption and often even unnecessary surgeries.
As Rob mentions, their oncologists are one of the best. Some Canadian patients travel to Cuba to get treated there with the latest methods.
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Bernie reminds me of Michael Foot.
One was crazy, the other is crazy and far too old. When you consider that even Maggie began to lose it in her older years, what chance a world leader of Bernie's age? I'm older than he is, but it fills me with horror just thinking of such hands on the big red button. It would fill me with horror having my hands on that goddam button!
And at the end of the day, that's why it matters most to the world just who sits in that old white house on the hill with his hands on the biggest buttons of them all. All it takes is one damned nutter that everyone around him salutes.
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I'm not defending Castro, but is is remarkable how such a poor country can produce so many competent medical doctors and practitioners. They have 13 medical universities and they train also many students from other countries. Their medical system puts also a lot of emphasis on preventive care which saves lo of money and pain in the long run, whereas the western style GP's tend to push more pill consumption and often even unnecessary surgeries.
As Rob mentions, their oncologists are one of the best. Some Canadian patients travel to Cuba to get treated there with the latest methods.
So they're good with primary care and oncology. Meanwhile the rest of the country is impoverished. They have no freedom - political, economic or personal. The government is a dictatorship that kills their people if they object too much. What good is good medical care if you're dead?
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So they're good with primary care and oncology. Meanwhile the rest of the country is impoverished. They have no freedom - political, economic or personal. The government is a dictatorship that kills their people if they object too much. What good is good medical care if you're dead?
Don't copy their political system, just their medical education methods.
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Don't copy their political system, just their medical education methods.
The problem is that Bernie wants to copy their political system as well.
You called for, when he was in his 30s and 40s, to nationalize all major industries in the country. Of course he is smart enough not to talk about this anymore, but he has never recanted this. Whenever he is asked about it, he says "that was how many years ago?" Sure, but if you dont agree with it anymore, just say so. Dont side step the question.
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Don't copy their political system, just their medical education methods.
You can't separate the two. Doctors don't have economic freedom. So the government pays them little. That's how they can afford to have good medical care. They have nothing else. They work their butts off to get educated and then get paid nothing. How do you copy that medically without losing your freedoms?
In any case, how do you know just how good the care is? Do you really think Castro is giving out honest statistics about health or anything else? All dictatorships lie about things like that.
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Peter, Britain could do with a Mussolini too: somebody needs to get those trains working properly! Instead, they are going to spend 200 billion fish making better rail connections between the north and London, which will only serve to make it easier for the northerners to leave the north, not create new jobs in the north, whereas improving local infrastructure instead of thinking about London, would perhaps manage to create those jobs.
Indirectly, and at great cost, Hitler did just that: after the war which he lost, the Marshall Plan helped rebuild all those old factories with spanking new ones, and now those who can replace their Caddies with a Mercedes often will. Man, they even managed to buy Rolls-Royce and Bentley. So who won what?
I patted a dog once, too. But it was my own.
;-)
When you think about that war, don't you find it amazing how those that lost were rebuilt by the winners. At great expense. Didn't happened all that much in the history of the world, prior to the Marshall Plan.
Peter
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All this defending Castro and socialist regimes is to get us ready for Sanders run for president. Unfortunately, ignorant Americans will fall for it like others in history.
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So they're good with primary care and oncology. Meanwhile the rest of the country is impoverished. They have no freedom - political, economic or personal. The government is a dictatorship that kills their people if they object too much. What good is good medical care if you're dead?
There have been no executions in Cuba since 2003.
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There have been no executions in Cuba since 2003.
Wow, Peter. Well that makes it all right then. :o
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There have been no executions in Cuba since 2003.
Damn, that is something to look forward to. Just make it though the first 44 years and you'll be fine.
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You can't separate the two. Doctors don't have economic freedom. So the government pays them little. That's how they can afford to have good medical care. They have nothing else. They work their butts off to get educated and then get paid nothing. How do you copy that medically without losing your freedoms?
In any case, how do you know just how good the care is? Do you really think Castro is giving out honest statistics about health or anything else? All dictatorships lie about things like that.
You know healthcare in Cuba was so great for doctors that when the Wet Foot Dry Foot policy was in place, they went out of their way to find USA embassies to stick their foot in.
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When it comes to medical education, Cuba's approach with a strong focus on primary care has been pretty good and quite effective. And they do it without students loans.
It is quite easy when people can't get obese even if they wanted ;)
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And they even manage to export them here to Mallorca: I have had a Cuban doctor once or twice, and she was perfectly good in her treatment of me. My wife had a Cuban oncologist once, too, but that was on private care.
Here is the truth behind it (bold mine):
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48214513
"The hidden world of the doctors Cuba sends overseas"
Cuba has long been renowned for its medical diplomacy - thousands of its doctors work in healthcare missions around the world, earning the country billions of dollars in cash. But according to a new report, some of the doctors themselves say conditions can be nightmarish - controlled by minders, subject to a curfew and posted to extremely dangerous places
Going from a doctor's salary on the island of just $15 a month in 2011, she says she was paid $125 monthly for the first six months in Venezuela, a figure that rose to $250 after six months and $325 during her third year. Her family in Cuba also received a bonus of $50 a month.
doctors on average receive between 10% and 25% of the salary paid by the host countries, with the rest being kept by Cuba's authorities.
It sounds more like human trafficking:
89% said they had no prior knowledge of where they would be posted within a particular country
41% said their passport was removed from them by a Cuban official on arrival in the host country
91% said they were watched over by Cuban security officials while on their mission, and the same percentage reported being asked to pass on information about colleagues to security officials
57% said they did not volunteer to join a mission, but felt obliged to do so, while 39% said they felt strongly pressured to serve abroad.
"I woke up one night, with someone holding my mouth shut. The doctor in the other room was screaming. There were two men in balaclavas, armed with guns." Julia says she was raped by both men.
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It is quite easy when people can't get obese even if they wanted ;)
Very true. I've seen also in Cuba some obese persons, but not as many as in USA. OTOH, many Cubans are still smoking.
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Defended Castro yesterday and criticizes AIPAC for being bigoted today.
He must really be trying hard to loose Florida.
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You can't separate the two. Doctors don't have economic freedom. So the government pays them little. That's how they can afford to have good medical care. They have nothing else. They work their butts off to get educated and then get paid nothing. How do you copy that medically without losing your freedoms?
In any case, how do you know just how good the care is? Do you really think Castro is giving out honest statistics about health or anything else? All dictatorships lie about things like that.
One Castro is dead, and the other is not giving out any statistics. There are all kinds of stories and articles about Cuban healthcare. Here is one from Canadian press about a lung cancer treatment.
A Regina woman who was diagnosed with lung cancer and given a year to live says she’s now in remission thanks to a vaccine she received in Cuba. Judy Bryden, who received the devastating diagnosis in 2016, travelled to Cuba last year to receive treatment and pick up several doses of the CIMAvax EGF vaccine. The vaccine was developed for non-small cell lung cancer, which represents up to 85 per cent of all lung cancers. After taking the vaccine doses over several months, Bryden said a recent scan of her lungs found no cancer.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/lung-cancer-patient-says-she-s-now-in-remission-thanks-to-cuban-vaccine-1.3842678
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Given this is (still?) a photographic forum, a few vignettes from the good life in Cuba:
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And a few more:
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One Castro is dead, and the other is not giving out any statistics. There are all kinds of stories and articles about Cuban healthcare. Here is one from Canadian press about a lung cancer treatment.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/lung-cancer-patient-says-she-s-now-in-remission-thanks-to-cuban-vaccine-1.3842678
What? The free Canadian Health care system needs to outsource to Cuba??? [/sarcasm]
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Given this is (still?) a photographic forum, a few vignettes from the good life in Cuba:
Where are the photos of the '55 Chevys :)
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Where are the photos of the '55 Chevys :)
and the old wrinkled woman smoking a cigar?
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What? The free Canadian Health care system needs to outsource to Cuba??? [/sarcasm]
Free is good, but good is better.
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When you think about that war, don't you find it amazing how those that lost were rebuilt by the winners. At great expense. Didn't happened all that much in the history of the world, prior to the Marshall Plan.
Peter
As I often say, those were the good old days. Not too much like that happens now; now, they invade, shoot rockets and dump bombs, and then walk away having replaced one system with nothing better, only introducing chaos in place of control. Cool.
Rob
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Just saw that both Cuba and Costa Rica had similar literacy rates pre-Castro, and currently have similar (near 100%) literacy rates.
Amazing how Costa Rica was able to get there without shooting 100,000s of political dissidents. I mean after that interview yesterday, I just would have never have thought you could reach that high of a rate without killing off a large portion of the population.
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There have been no executions in Cuba since 2003.
How do you know there have been no executions? How many political prisoners are locked up? Do you approve of Castro's methods and dictatorship? Why would you be an apologist for the Castros? Do you wish The Netherlands government was run like Cuba's? Have you clearly thought out what you're supporting?
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Where are the photos of the '55 Chevys :)
Here it is:
https://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/cuba-s-classic-cars
:)
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and the old wrinkled woman smoking a cigar?
If you insist ;)
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If you insist ;)
Good thing she can count on the free healthcare and competency of the local oncologists.
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Just saw that both Cuba and Costa Rica had similar literacy rates pre-Castro, and currently have similar (near 100%) literacy rates.
Amazing how Costa Rica was able to get there without shooting 100,000s of political dissidents. I mean after that interview yesterday, I just would have never have thought you could reach that high of a rate without killing off a large portion of the population.
So maybe that is the way to go. I am sure bernie was hinting at it.
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Just saw that both Cuba and Costa Rica had similar literacy rates pre-Castro, and currently have similar (near 100%) literacy rates.
Amazing how Costa Rica was able to get there without shooting 100,000s of political dissidents. I mean after that interview yesterday, I just would have never have thought you could reach that high of a rate without killing off a large portion of the population.
Hopefully, Florida will also reach soon their literacy rates.
Florida has the third lowest adult literacy level of all 50 states. In Manatee County, as many as one in five adults cannot read above a fifth-grade level. These findings come from the most recent National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL), a survey of more than 19,000 Americans ages 16 and older.
http://www.manatee-literacy.org/why_literacy.aspx
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Lol. It’s great seeing the left defend communist regimes because Bernie is pretty much the winner of the primary.
Socialism is the left ideology equivalent of Nazism. You can’t defend it. As a matter of fact it’s killed multiple times more people.
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Where are the photos of the '55 Chevys :)
Here it is:
https://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/cuba-s-classic-cars
Excellent!
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Excellent!
Thanks, Chris.
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Lol. It’s great seeing the left defend communist regimes because Bernie is pretty much the winner of the primary.
Socialism is the left ideology equivalent of Nazism. You can’t defend it. As of after of fact it’s killed multiple times more people.
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I see CNN is knocking Bernie. The entire left will all pile on soon. As much as they hate Trump, and have doubts about Biden's strength, they know how their bread is buttered.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html
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Lol. It’s great seeing the left defend communist regimes because Bernie is pretty much the winner of the primary.
Socialism is the left ideology equivalent of Nazism. You can’t defend it. As a matter of fact it’s killed multiple times more people.
So that is the position of the US at the moment: choice between the badright and the badleft.
A soon as Bernie takes over the USA will be renamed as the United Socialists of America ;)
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So that is the position of the US at the moment: choice between the badright and the badleft.
A soon as Bernie takes over the USA will be renamed as the United Socialists of America ;)
So you are defending a ideology that has killed more then the Nazi's in one country along?
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So you are defending a ideology that has killed more then the Nazi's in one country along?
If i am defending than you must be attacking
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If i am defending than you must be attacking
You're the one that sees nothing wrong with having an apologist for some of the worse dictatorships in the 20th century as president.
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You're the one that sees nothing wrong with having an apologist for some of the worse dictatorships in the 20th century as president.
What you call far left in the USA, we call central-left in the Netherlands as do more European countries... So I guess we are a bit like Cuba.
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What you call far left in the USA, we call central-left in the Netherlands as do more European countries... So I guess we are a bit like Cuba.
Do you have open borders and give all illegals aliens the same rights & coverages (including health coverages) as citizens regardless if they pay taxes? Bernie is calling for this.
Do you have free college and are willing to give free college to even illegal aliens? Bernie is calling for this.
Have you completely eliminated your immigration enforcement? Bernie is calling for this.
Do you require all companies (public & private) to have a minimum of 50% of the board to be of workers in the companies? Bernie is calling this.
Does you post office provide loans even if they have no one experience in banking working there? Bernie is calling for this.
Do you tax a person based on their wealth, not just salary? Bernie is calling for this.
He is calling for all of this and a lot of other crazy far left wing policies. So, considering your post, you really have no idea what is going on and what he is pushing for over here. He is a straight up communist.
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Looks like Bloomberg and Democrats are going to do Republican work against Sanders. This reminds me of 2016 when Republican insiders went after Trump, the outsider.
Mike Bloomberg prepares media onslaught against Democratic front-runner Bernie Sanders
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/24/mike-bloomberg-prepares-media-blitz-against-bernie-sanders.html
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Looks like Bloomberg and Democrats are going to do Republican work against Sanders. This reminds me of 2016 when Republican insiders went after Trump, the outsider.
Mike Bloomberg prepares media onslaught against Democratic front-runner Bernie Sanders
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/24/mike-bloomberg-prepares-media-blitz-against-bernie-sanders.html
It will really depend on tomorrow debate performance.
If Bloomberg shows up apologizing again for everything he did, it wont matter. And if Biden does well enough in SC to keep him in the race, it wont matter even if Bloomberg goes full tilt.
But anyway, I leave for Oz tomorrow and will be hanging out with the roos for the next 18 days. Sydney, then to Yarra Valley and then to Melbourne.
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Post pictures and have a great time.
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One of the biggest problem with the media (all of it) is that they have about a two-day mentality. A lot of them are now giving the Democratic nomination to Bernie, or suggesting that he's well on the way. After finishing second in Iowa, and first in his home state and in Nevada, Bernie now has (gasp!) 45 delegates to the convention. You need to get 1,991 delegates to get the nomination. So Bernie now has 2% of the delegates he needs. I'm not yet worried about a socialist grabbing the nomination. If I had to put money on it, I'd bet the nomination goes to Biden/Klobuchar or Bloomberg/Klobuchar.
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One of the biggest problem with the media (all of it) is that they have about a two-day mentality. A lot of them are now giving the Democratic nomination to Bernie, or suggesting that he's well on the way. After finishing second in Iowa, and first in his home state and in Nevada, Bernie now has (gasp!) 45 delegates to the convention. You need to get 1,991 delegates to get the nomination. So Bernie now has 2% of the delegates he needs.
Problem is the other candidates are very weak and the centrists are split. Biden, Buttigieg, Kublachar, and now Bloomberg are just dividing up the votes. Similar to what happened to the Republicans in 2016 against Trump. Of course, Republican nomination is winner take all delegates whereas Democrats win delegates proportionally. So there' a chance no one will win the majority needed and we'll have a brokered convention. On the other hand, a Sanders could gain momentum and the people could give him the win before the convention. Or make his numbers so convincing, he will be the best to run against Trump and the convention will award him the nomination. His commie policies will be ignored by the crooked press who will protect him against Trump.
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Do you have ...
Joe, I am afraid the answer to many of your questions about Europe is actually “yes” or very close to it.
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1. Do you have open borders and give all illegals aliens the same rights & coverages (including health coverages) as citizens regardless if they pay taxes? Bernie is calling for this.
2. Do you have free college and are willing to give free college to even illegal aliens? Bernie is calling for this.
3. Have you completely eliminated your immigration enforcement? Bernie is calling for this.
4. Do you require all companies (public & private) to have a minimum of 50% of the board to be of workers in the companies? Bernie is calling this.
5. Does you post office provide loans even if they have no one experience in banking working there? Bernie is calling for this.
6. Do you tax a person based on their wealth, not just salary? Bernie is calling for this.
7. He is calling for all of this and a lot of other crazy far left wing policies. So, considering your post, you really have no idea what is going on and what he is pushing for over here. He is a straight up communist.
1. Between member countries, the EEC does. We do, largely, conform with international rights for refugees;
2. mixture of both, depending on level and countr. Illegal aliens would first have to sell their spaceship in order to prove allegiance. As they have no hearts, obviously they wouldn't have to place their hand over it as they pledge;
3. again, depends on who is travelling and from where;
4. not yet; it is often raised as a possible action. A side-benefit would be that employees suddenly become aware on which side of their bread lies the butter: strikes would cost them dear;
5. the Spanish post office is a big investor in construction etc. whereas some banks waste money (that they won't give as interest) on sponsoring various sports. Why they do that instead of helping their customers have a better lifestyle is something that's surprising. Was a time I could live well on pension and interest without touching capital - long gone, I'm afraid;
6. taxed on both, again depending who you are, what you have and where you live; inheritance tax gets you in the end, however you describe it;
7. one man's communist is another man's radical.
I would suggest that in America, the word communist means something far different to what it means in many other countries. I can't think of another place that has had the purges that the US has had, both against the movie industry as against the writing trade. It strikes me that you condemn bookburners so fiercely because you have often been so damned good at it.
Rob
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Time for a sequel, Rob.
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Time for a sequel, Rob.
Gimme a break, Slobodan; it's ten past eleven and I have yet to make my bed, do my teeth etc. in order to be ready and able to leave the house and go out to face the world!
(I realise I wrote house when the reality today is apartment. How blindly one goes through life. We bought this place as a first step, just to see if I could keep the business alive from abroad. By the time we decided to remain, hesitation and inflation had removed the once easy option of upgrading to a villa. How I miss my own driveway.)
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You see, Rob, when you realized you have commies in the government, it was way too late. The damage was already done, plus they already fled to the Mother Russia. We prefer prevention.
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You see, Rob, when you realized you have commies in the government, it was way too late. The damage was already done, plus they already fled to the Mother Russia. We prefer prevention.
You mean the two GRU agents who tried to affect lives of their compatriots in Salisbury?
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You mean the two GRU agents who tried to affect lives of their compatriots in Salisbury?
I know you know who I have in mind, but for the rest: Kim Philby and the Cambridge Five.
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Life is good in Cuba - plenty of choice - young or old, you can take a nap horizontally or vertically:
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I know you know who I have in mind, but for the rest: Kim Philby and the Cambridge Five.
But we got to them.
Education often breeds leftist thought. It's a product of feeling for fellow man, of knowing something about the huge and needless levels of difference in earnings and, crucially, the amount of it you can keep (again, think of my poor, deprived, fifty-million dollar man at the same time as you think of the bundle of humanity in a blanket under the next bridge; and no, it is not always his own fault), and all sorts of other cerebral things that make communism superficially attractive become clear.
There's the cynical saying to the effect that if you are not a socialist as twenty, then there is something wrong with you, and if you are one at forty, there's definitely something wrong with you. Such sayings depend for their veracity upon the experience and mindset of the person who invents them; they do not, of themselves, express divine law.
As with much in life, a half-way measure is often the only sensible solution, though that is always at risk of being labelled lukewarm, tepid and neither fish nor fowl. Which of course, is how extremists in the shape of your guy and the one who stole my party managed their con: vast numbers of people have become conditioned to being too stupid/lazy to think clearly, and are capable today of reacting only on emotional levels. That's why all politicos pay so very much attention to mindless arenas such as Twitter and Facebook; with a bedmate as he has, why else would Trump spend all night on his computer trying to write? That he can't, but still gets so much attention and so many besotted followers, tells you all you neeed to know.
I'll stop there for now.
;-)
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... things that make communism superficially attractive...
I can understand why it looked attractive before being tested, but 100 years since then??? With plenty of historical evidence and personal experience of millions of people and millions of victims???
The current young generation wasn't even born when the Berlin Wall fell, of course they have no clue what communism is. Being educated by the same bunch who never experienced it themselves, living in the academic ivory towers.
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... There's the cynical saying to the effect that if you are not a socialist as twenty, then there is something wrong with you, and if you are one at forty, there's definitely something wrong with you..
Well, the actual saying is: if you are not a socialist before 30, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist after, you have no brain.
As I noted before, you seem to be getting younger and younger by the day, like Benjamin Button ;)
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To dispel the misunderstandings built into socialism you need to study two things: history and economics. If you really want to understand how capitalism works to the benefit of everyone, read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations. Yeah, it can be a tough slog because of changes in the language. If you want the same thing in shorter but less complete form, read Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics.
Regarding Rob's comment: Churchill supposedly said: "If you are not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at forty, you have no brain." If he said it, he actually was misquoting John Adams, who said: "'If my son is not a liberal when he is twenty, I will disown him; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, I will disown him then."
For those on the left: What this saying means is that as you age you usually become more informed; perhaps even wiser. But as adequately demonstrated in The Coffee Corner, that's not always true.
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Democrats are finally getting worried about Sanders. They're starting to justify a brokered convention. Trump's right. They'll screw Bernie again. It's one thing for them to push socialism. But now a dedicated Bolshevik might win and take their rich salaries and money away as well as their power. Sweet justice.
Bloomberg internal poll claims Bernie would sink downballot Dems
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/25/bloomberg-internal-poll-claims-bernie-would-hurt-downballot-dems-117290
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To dispel the misunderstandings built into socialism you need to study two things: history and economics. If you really want to understand how capitalism works to the benefit of everyone, read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations. Yeah, it can be a tough slog because of changes in the language. If you want the same thing in shorter but less complete form, read Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics.
Regarding Rob's comment: Churchill supposedly said: "If you are not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at forty, you have no brain." If he said it, he actually was misquoting John Adams, who said: "'If my son is not a liberal when he is twenty, I will disown him; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, I will disown him then."
For those on the left: What this saying means is that as you age you usually become more informed; perhaps even wiser. But as adequately demonstrated in The Coffee Corner, that's not always true.
I guess they said it when they were 95
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Well, the actual saying is: if you are not a socialist before 30, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist after, you have no brain.
As I noted before, you seem to be getting younger and younger by the day, like Benjamin Button ;)
Close enough; not gonna argue.
But who is this Benjamin Button of whom you seem so fond?
Rob
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But we got to them.
Education often breeds leftist thought. It's a product of feeling for fellow man, of knowing something about the huge and needless levels of difference in earnings and, crucially, the amount of it you can keep (again, think of my poor, deprived, fifty-million dollar man at the same time as you think of the bundle of humanity in a blanket under the next bridge; and no, it is not always his own fault), and all sorts of other cerebral things that make communism superficially attractive become clear.
There's the cynical saying to the effect that if you are not a socialist as twenty, then there is something wrong with you, and if you are one at forty, there's definitely something wrong with you. Such sayings depend for their veracity upon the experience and mindset of the person who invents them; they do not, of themselves, express divine law.
As with much in life, a half-way measure is often the only sensible solution, though that is always at risk of being labelled lukewarm, tepid and neither fish nor fowl. Which of course, is how extremists in the shape of your guy and the one who stole my party managed their con: vast numbers of people have become conditioned to being too stupid/lazy to think clearly, and are capable today of reacting only on emotional levels. That's why all politicos pay so very much attention to mindless arenas such as Twitter and Facebook; with a bedmate as he has, why else would Trump spend all night on his computer trying to write? That he can't, but still gets so much attention and so many besotted followers, tells you all you neeed to know.
I'll stop there for now.
;-)
Well, the actual saying is: if you are not a socialist before 30, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist after, you have no brain.
As I noted before, you seem to be getting younger and younger by the day, like Benjamin Button ;)
Close enough; not gonna argue.
But who is this Benjamin Button of whom you seem so fond?
Rob
Puts me in mind of another facile cliché: There's no fool like an old fool.
;-)
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But who is this Benjamin Button of whom you seem so fond?
Benjamin Button is the protagonist is a story titled The Curious Case of Benjamin Button by the American writer F. Scott Fitzgerald. He ages in reverse. The story was made into a movie in 2008 starring Brad Pitt.
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Benjamin Button is the protagonist is a story titled The Curious Case of Benjamin Button by the American writer F. Scott Fitzgerald. He ages in reverse. The story was made into a movie in 2008 starring Brad Pitt.
Oh well, if I end up like a younger Brad Pitt, then that must be a positive! Thanks.
:-)
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Not once, not twice, but now a third time in one week during the debate Sanders praises Fidel. Says he is echoing Obama. (Let’s be real, we can agree on that last part.)
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Not once, not twice, but now a third time in one week during the debate Sanders praises Fidel. Says he is echoing Obama. (Let’s be real, we can agree on that last part.)
Sanders keep telling everyone he's a commie. For decades. No one wants to believe him. They will if he becomes president.
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Oh well, if I end up like a younger Brad Pitt...
More likely, the way your are aging in reverse, you’ll soon end up back in 1968, as a student activist in Paris, throwing Molotov’s cocktails at the police ;)
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Not once, not twice, but now a third time in one week during the debate Sanders praises Fidel. Says he is echoing Obama. (Let’s be real, we can agree on that last part.)
But, of course. Here he is, paying respect to Castro and Che.
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But, of course. Here he is, paying respect to Castro and Che.
This is outrageous! Who knows what this might lead to next... a "love-letter" from Kim Jong Un II....or even accepting the word of KGB Agent Putin over the US Intelligence Community?
You guys must find a way of stopping this, before you know it he will be claiming that, as President, he can do anything he wants!
Alan, while I'm about it, please explain to me how you know the content of Hillary's (bleached) e-mails? ;)
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This is outrageous! Who knows what this might lead to next... a "love-letter" from Kim Jong Un II....or even accepting the word of KGB Agent Putin over the US Intelligence Community?
You guys must find a way of stopping this, before you know it he will be claiming that, as President, he can do anything he wants!
Alan, while I'm about it, please explain to me how you know the content of Hillary's (bleached) e-mails? ;)
Clearly, he's in a deep state. Maybe not the Deep State, but a deep one anyway. In such a state you know and see everything. It was wildly popular during the time of Timothy Leary.
;-)
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The American right-wing paranoia about Cuba is a mystery to most of the rest of the world, I think. It's out of all proportion. I mean, there haven't been any missiles there since 1962. It's a tiny poor country that doesn't much affect the rest of the world. What gives? Don't you guys have enough to worry about?
As for how terrible Castro and the Communists were (and are). Of that, there is no question. But how great was Battista? Are you really that pissed off that Castro got rid of american organized crime families?
As for what started this thread, that Bernie was supposedly supporting Castro, that's at best a stretch. At its most cynical, the comment might have been a criticism in the sense of, 'If such a poor destitute country can achieve such terrific literacy rates, maybe we could learn something from their school system.' Now THAT might have been a useful discussion. Instead, we got the now normal online pseudo-debate cesspool.
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What was the Cuban economy like under Batista, Robert? What is the Cuban economy like under the Castros? See any difference? Do you suppose the difference has any consequences for the people of Cuba?
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This is outrageous! Who knows what this might lead to next... a "love-letter" from Kim Jong Un II....or even accepting the word of KGB Agent Putin over the US Intelligence Community?
You guys must find a way of stopping this, before you know it he will be claiming that, as President, he can do anything he wants!
Alan, while I'm about it, please explain to me how you know the content of Hillary's (bleached) e-mails? ;)
Well Hillary claimed the 30,000 emails she deleted only contained recipes she exchanged with her in-laws and stuff like that. Then she hired an IT expert from Texas, who flew to her house in upstate New York and deleted all those recipes from the illegal servers she had set up in her bathroom. Those recipes must have been pretty important. Maybe she was using them to publish a cookbook and wanted to keep them secret. :)
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Oh, the IT expert subsequently lied to Congress about deleting the emails.
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The American right-wing paranoia about Cuba is a mystery to most of the rest of the world, I think. It's out of all proportion. I mean, there haven't been any missiles there since 1962. It's a tiny poor country that doesn't much affect the rest of the world. What gives? Don't you guys have enough to worry about?
As for how terrible Castro and the Communists were (and are). Of that, there is no question. But how great was Battista? Are you really that pissed off that Castro got rid of american organized crime families?
As for what started this thread, that Bernie was supposedly supporting Castro, that's at best a stretch. At its most cynical, the comment might have been a criticism in the sense of, 'If such a poor destitute country can achieve such terrific literacy rates, maybe we could learn something from their school system.' Now THAT might have been a useful discussion. Instead, we got the now normal online pseudo-debate cesspool.
The literacy issue is the tip of the iceberg. Sanders is a tried-and-true, anti-Capitalist Marxist who believes the state should own the means of production, etc. He believes in the Cuban and former Soviet systems, not just their literacy rates.
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What was the Cuban economy like under Batista, Robert? What is the Cuban economy like under the Castros? See any difference? Do you suppose the difference has any consequences for the people of Cuba?
Did I say Battista was a good guy?
Revolutions don't deliver what they promise, no sh*t Sherlock.
Does any of this have anything to do with the discussion?
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The literacy issue is the tip of the iceberg. Sanders is a tried-and-true, anti-Capitalist Marxist who believes the state should own the means of production, etc. He believes in the Cuban and former Soviet systems, not just their literacy rates.
You can keep repeating the cassette, but it's still irrelevant to the discussion. NO ONE is arguing with you that communism doesn't work.
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The literacy issue is the tip of the iceberg. Sanders is a tried-and-true, anti-Capitalist Marxist who believes the state should own the means of production, etc. He believes in the Cuban and former Soviet systems, not just their literacy rates.
Do you have a link supporting those assertions?
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Well Hillary claimed the 30,000 emails she deleted only contained recipes she exchanged with her in-laws and stuff like that. Then she hired an IT expert from Texas, who flew to her house in upstate New York and deleted all those recipes from the illegal servers she had set up in her bathroom. Those recipes must have been pretty important. Maybe she was using them to publish a cookbook and wanted to keep them secret. :)
AAARCH!... or CARAMBA!
You can keep repeating the cassette, but it's still irrelevant to the discussion. NO ONE is arguing with you that communism doesn't work.
8-track is the right word
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Do you have a link supporting those assertions?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/02/bernie-sanders-support-communism-moral-failing/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwifmOvO3u_nAhVkh-AKHSqwDa8QFjAZegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0P3bZFzXyqIwoTY7Wj7Qz8&cf=1
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/02/bernie-sanders-support-communism-moral-failing/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwifmOvO3u_nAhVkh-AKHSqwDa8QFjAZegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0P3bZFzXyqIwoTY7Wj7Qz8&cf=1
Notwithstanding that the article is found in the ultra right wing National Review, I saw nothing but bald assertions against Sanders, and a litany of bad things that Castro did, which even the author acknowledged that Sanders disapproved of. There is nothing in the article which supports your claims that Sanders believes the government should own the means of production or that he supports the Cuban or former Soviet communist systems. Trump cozies up to authoritarian leaders and you look the other way; Sanders says he admires Cuba's literacy program, and you brand him a Communist. I can only imagine what you would say if one of the posters around here said he liked Jupiter lenses.
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,,, NO ONE is arguing with you that communism doesn't work.
Ok, I must admit, that’s something quite new for me in these forums.
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Ok, I must admit, that’s something quite new for me in these forums.
That's the trouble, Slobodan: when it comes to Trump, people go blind and see nothing else but the imaginary new horizon.
I think that he has learned something old, something new and something blue. Trump, not you, Slobodan.
The old: tell it often enough and folks will buy into it. Labour and the SS (Starboard Conservatives) do it in the UK, and your boy in the States: and what is it? That everything that went before didn't work, was totally wrong and corrupt. Were it true, both places, yours and my old one, would today be closed for business because all of those various parties have had their extended opportunities to play their own kind of game in them.
The new: the slogan is king. Regardless of the inherent implication. Make America Great Again is a prime example of nonsense writ large and waved in every corner of the land. What is it really saying? It's saying that America has languished as a basket case until the last election. It doesn't take one of Slobodan's pairs of binoculars to see that for the nonsense that it it: America has been ahead of all of the rest for ever and a day - at least, commercially. Anything that hit America hit the rest of the world too. Come to think of it, 2008 was largely inspired by American excess which you can't have without first having success.
The blue: apart from the beautiful Melania at the inauguration to make all other inaugurations look tiny, the blue-collar has been seduced too, exactly, again, as was the English one by acolyte and dedicated student Boris.
Now, if little red books could be turned blue, just as new British passports are now going to become old blue ones again after a period of redness, think of how peace would settle on the surface of this world right up to the moment that a little Middle Eastern country went crazy and ruined the peace yet again with the sound of those goddam bulldozers!
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Notwithstanding that the article is found in the ultra right wing National Review, I saw nothing but bald assertions against Sanders, and a litany of bad things that Castro did, which even the author acknowledged that Sanders disapproved of. There is nothing in the article which supports your claims that Sanders believes the government should own the means of production or that he supports the Cuban or former Soviet communist systems. Trump cozies up to authoritarian leaders and you look the other way; Sanders says he admires Cuba's literacy program, and you brand him a Communist. I can only imagine what you would say if one of the posters around here said he liked Jupiter lenses.
Everyone thought Castro was a capitalist until he took over. Then he killed the opposition and turned the country into a Communist paradise.
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Everyone thought Castro was a capitalist until he took over. Then he killed the opposition and turned the country into a Communist paradise.
Not according to my sources.
Although born as the son of a wealthy Spanish farmer, Castro adopted leftist anti-imperialist ideas while studying law at the University of Havana.
After participating in rebellions against right-wing governments in the Dominican Republic and Colombia, he planned the overthrow of Cuban President Fulgencio Batista, launching a failed attack on the Moncada Barracks in 1953. After a year's imprisonment, Castro traveled to Mexico where he formed a revolutionary group, the 26th of July Movement, with his brother Raúl Castro and Ernesto "Che" Guevara.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro
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Not according to my sources.
Although born as the son of a wealthy Spanish farmer, Castro adopted leftist anti-imperialist ideas while studying law at the University of Havana.
That's true. That's when he was converted. But he lied to the Western press about his political intentions until he defeated Trujillo. That way he was able to get support or at least not get the kind of opposition that would have occured during his revolution had the world known of his communist beliefs.
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Batista not Trujillo.
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That's true. That's when he was converted. But he lied to the Western press about his political intentions until he defeated Trujillo. That way he was able to get support or at least not get the kind of opposition that would have occured during his revolution had the world known of his communist beliefs.
Communists lie all the time.
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Communists lie all the time.
My sister's good friend and her family had to flee to the US after Castro took over. They lost everything.
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They knew how to read before Castro.
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https://babylonbee.com/news/bernie-vows-to-rebuild-berlin-wall?fbclid=IwAR0gco9nlO3QFuIXgfvYWWgfHTt0EG2v_fxPSNZAN588EbvyEHHL047mB6U
“We are opposed to some aspects of the Berlin Wall, but, you know, it’s simply unfair to say everything was bad,” Sanders said before a screaming throng of Bernie bros. “Barbed wire and machine guns? Maybe not so good. But it was a beautiful wall made of smooth concrete that was quite lovely. Most importantly, it kept out fascists. That’s a GOOD thing.”
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The literacy issue is the tip of the iceberg. Sanders is a tried-and-true, anti-Capitalist Marxist who believes the state should own the means of production, etc. He believes in the Cuban and former Soviet systems, not just their literacy rates.
Not at all, this is pure fantasy from extreme right older Republicans like yourself. You are playing with the deeply rooted fears of Americans. This is pathetic FUD.
That's absolutely not what Sanders is promoting.
And I have to ask again, if you think that Sanders doesn't stand a chance, why do you have to deform his thoughts? Why not debate on the basis of his actual program?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not at all, this is pure fantasy from extreme right older Republicans like yourself. You are playing with the deeply rooted fears of Americans. This is pathetic FUD.
That's absolutely not what Sanders is promoting.
And I have to ask again, if you think that Sanders doesn't stand a chance, why do you have to deform his thoughts? Why not debate on the basis of his actual program?
Cheers,
Bernard
Lets see, Sanders basically wants to nationalize the energy sector, and basically do the same to the health care system. Thats a very large part of the US economy. He believes he has the right to confiscate the wealth of those he thinks have too much. He wants to tax the rest of us heavily. He believes he should be able to force business to put people he wants on thier boards and shape the destiny of comporations. He wants to mostly undo the 2nd amendment. Thats more than enough to toss him into the dustbin of history.
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Lets see, Sanders basically wants to nationalize the energy sector, and basically do the same to the health care system. Thats a very large part of the US economy. He believes he has the right to confiscate the wealth of those he thinks have too much. He wants to tax the rest of us heavily. He believes he should be able to force business to put people he wants on thier boards and shape the destiny of comporations. He wants to mostly undo the 2nd amendment. Thats more than enough to toss him into the dustbin of history.
Sanders must have been reading LuLa and pinching some of my thoughts.
I believe in a nationally owned public power supply system; I believe in a nationally owned health-care system (this does not preclude any number of private competitors - its at their risk and that of their punters); I believe in a public radio and tv service such as the BBC if only because it removes it from the obligation to produce commercially viable shit, though sadly, it appears not to have entirely understood that part yet; I do believe in capping personal, uninvested wealth at 50 million fish (capping is not confiscation: it means forcing the person to invest more in what he has or into something else, above and beyond that, thus producing employment).
I do not believe in putting people who do not know the business into top jobs or onto boards. I do not believe in token appointments of any sort - i.e. women or ethnic minorities on boards or in top jobs just because there is an obligation to put women or minorities there. That's just social engineering and will end in tears. Those who fight their way to the top will get there on their merits. It's the fighting that makes them.
Thank goodness we don't have a set of obligations and rules, set in concrete (you Americans are in love with Tablets of Stone) as you have in your Constitution. No wonder so many of you are or need lawyers!
;-)
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Sanders must have been reading LuLa and pinching some of my thoughts.
I believe...
You've gone to the dark side. Brexit must have turned your political views upside down ;)
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https://babylonbee.com/news/bernie-vows-to-rebuild-berlin-wall?fbclid=IwAR0gco9nlO3QFuIXgfvYWWgfHTt0EG2v_fxPSNZAN588EbvyEHHL047mB6U
There is only one man that wants to built walls at the moment and that is Trump...
a Reality, no Joke.
The other wall is in Israel, partly in Palestine territory- another sad Reality.
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There is only one man that wants to built walls at the moment and that is Trump...
Yes, horrible. Pure voter suppression, disenfranchising our Mexican voters.
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My sister's good friend and her family had to flee to the US after Castro took over. They lost everything.
A personal tragedy, that's in no doubt. Nowadays we call that collateral damage and shrug. When it happens to others, anyway. ;)
It's not unlike what happened to native North American tribes when the white man arrived. Might explain why they're not so keen on the reservations that they were forcibly relocated to. So when the country club set says of tribal bands, "They should get over it," that's a bit like what most of the rest of the world thinks about the US obsession with Cuba, "Get over it, already, stop your endless whining."
Or maybe it's the case that forcible land confiscation is only bad when "communists" do it. When "good guys" do it, it's progress, and I'm sure someone benefits.
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Wow! :o
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Sanders must have been reading LuLa and pinching some of my thoughts.
I believe in a nationally owned public power supply system; I believe in a nationally owned health-care system (this does not preclude any number of private competitors - its at their risk and that of their punters); I believe in a public radio and tv service such as the BBC if only because it removes it from the obligation to produce commercially viable shit, though sadly, it appears not to have entirely understood that part yet; I do believe in capping personal, uninvested wealth at 50 million fish (capping is not confiscation: it means forcing the person to invest more in what he has or into something else, above and beyond that, thus producing employment).
I do not believe in putting people who do not know the business into top jobs or onto boards. I do not believe in token appointments of any sort - i.e. women or ethnic minorities on boards or in top jobs just because there is an obligation to put women or minorities there. That's just social engineering and will end in tears. Those who fight their way to the top will get there on their merits. It's the fighting that makes them.
Thank goodness we don't have a set of obligations and rules, set in concrete (you Americans are in love with Tablets of Stone) as you have in your Constitution. No wonder so many of you are or need lawyers!
;-)
Our "tablets of stone" the Constitution, is what keeps individuals with their ideas of Utopia from imposing those views on the rest of us. It's what maintains our freedoms.
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A personal tragedy, that's in no doubt. Nowadays we call that collateral damage and shrug. When it happens to others, anyway. ;)
It's not unlike what happened to native North American tribes when the white man arrived. Might explain why they're not so keen on the reservations that they were forcibly relocated to. So when the country club set says of tribal bands, "They should get over it," that's a bit like what most of the rest of the world thinks about the US obsession with Cuba, "Get over it, already, stop your endless whining."
Or maybe it's the case that forcible land confiscation is only bad when "communists" do it. When "good guys" do it, it's progress, and I'm sure someone benefits.
We should have left Europe with the Nazis and then with the Soviets. Just a bunch of endless whiners.
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We should have left Europe with the Nazis and then with the Soviets. Just a bunch of endless whiners.
You are the one endless repeatedly whining as you do now.
No content, just making mindless outcries like these.
BTW Klein sounds very German to me.
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You are the one endless repeatedly whining as you do now.
No content, just making mindless outcries like these.
BTW Klein sounds very German to me.
This screed seems close to the line.
Regards,
Dale
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You are the one endless repeatedly whining as you do now.
No content, just making mindless outcries like these.
BTW Klein sounds very German to me.
No. Polish or Russian Jewish.
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No. Polish or Russian Jewish.
Klein (small, short or little) would pass as a German, Dutch as well as a Jiddish name. In Polish, it's Maly, and in Russian Malenkij (Mаленький).
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This screed seems close to the line.
Regards,
Dale
Only as close as it needs to be to make the point, a point already made several times over, and why I eventually gave up trying to cope: conversations with a rubber wall do not conversations make. To tell you the truth, they undermine entire threads.
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You've gone to the dark side. Brexit must have turned your political views upside down ;)
Slobodan, there is no dark side.
Yes, you're right: Brexit certainly did that! Before this mess began I was a stauch Conservative, with Maggie as a kind of high point in my mind; even young Mr Cameron seemed a good guy to me. When Brexit arrived on the table, I soon realised several unpleasant things: foremost of these was that I no longer had a party. If you have kept abreast of UK politics over the years you will have realised that the people who suddenly appeared out of the woodwork were absolutely alien to that 1950s to circa 2017 concept of what a Conservative party was. The new people were - and are - what I can only think of as political opportunists and utterly amoral pirates, their services available to the highest payer. There has been a display of callousness I could never have believed, a willingness to lie at every opportunity, the while making new fortunes out of the collapsing value of poor old sterling. The bare-faced lies about the money available to the NHS (350 million a week extra) if we left, something sure to clinch a deal with the relatively poor and anxious up north; the lies to Northern Ireland about borders, now no longer even on the agenda, the betrayal done.
I could go on and on, the material is, unfortunately, infinite.
The other side, the one to which you probably refer to as the dark one, is equally worthless if for different reasons. In essence, there is no party left in Britain for which I could force myself to vote. I realise that this is perhaps what has caused so much indifference in the young voters: more quickly than did I they realised that all the options suck, none having a saving grace.
We enter third-world status very rapidly.
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Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...
Moderate Democrats worry that nominating Mr Sanders would cost them the election. We worry that forcing Americans to decide between him and Mr Trump would have no good outcome. It will surprise nobody that we disagree with a self-described democratic socialist over economics, but that is just the start. Mr Sanders is so convinced he is morally right that he has a dangerous tendency to put ends before means. And, in a country where Mr Trump has whipped up politics into a frenzy of loathing, Mr Sanders’s election would feed the hatred. A corrupt, right-wing populist, who scorns the rule of law and the constitution, and a sanctimonious, left-wing populist, who blames a cabal of billionaires and businesses for everything that is wrong with the world: it is hard to think of a worse choice.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49593367581_eb6e6fcf53_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iyoYnK)
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Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49593367581_eb6e6fcf53_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iyoYnK)
Well, so far it's half right...
Peter
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Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49593367581_eb6e6fcf53_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iyoYnK)
A corrupt, right-wing populist, who scorns the rule of law and the constitution,
This line puts the article where it belongs, at the bottom of the bird cage...
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Only as close as it needs to be to make the point, a point already made several times over, and why I eventually gave up trying to cope: conversations with a rubber wall do not conversations make. To tell you the truth, they undermine entire threads.
I'm disappointed you close your eyes and cover your ears to positions you disagree with. I thought you were better than that. Of course you won't read this because you pressed the "ignore" button on me. That's a cop out. What are you afraid of?
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The other side, the one to which you probably refer to as the dark one, is equally worthless if for different reasons. In essence, there is no party left in Britain for which I could force myself to vote. I realise that this is perhaps what has caused so much indifference in the young voters: more quickly than did I they realised that all the options suck, none having a saving grace.
We enter third-world status very rapidly.
Rob,
Sounds as though Britain needs compulsory voting like the Australian system. If you want to completely opt out of voting, you have the choice, but you pay a fine, unless you have an acceptable reason for not voting, such as being out of the country during the voting period.
The fine is not much, only A$20 for the first offense. However, if you continue refusing to vote in subsequent elections, whether State or Federal elections, the fine rises to A$50. If you refuse to pay the fine, then the matter goes to the court and your expenses will be much greater than the initial fine.
Regarding referendums involving major changes to the system, like the Brexit referendum, a double majority is required in Australia, that is, a majority of votes in a majority of States, plus an over all majority throughout the country. In the UK you have the equivalent of 4 states, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Only two of them voted in support of Brexit.
The UK political system is inadequate to handle major referendums, such as Brexit. You need to change your system. Consider Australia as a good model. ;)
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Rob,
Sounds as though Britain needs compulsory voting like the Australian system. If you want to completely opt out of voting, you have the choice, but you pay a fine, unless you have an acceptable reason for not voting, such as being out of the country during the voting period.
The fine is not much, only A$20 for the first offense. However, if you continue refusing to vote in subsequent elections, whether State or Federal elections, the fine rises to A$50. If you refuse to pay the fine, then the matter goes to the court and your expenses will be much greater than the initial fine.
Regarding referendums involving major changes to the system, like the Brexit referendum, a double majority is required in Australia, that is, a majority of votes in a majority of States, plus an over all majority throughout the country. In the UK you have the equivalent of 4 states, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Only two of them voted in support of Brexit.
The UK political system is inadequate to handle major referendums, such as Brexit. You need to change your system. Consider Australia as a good model. ;)
Do they have a lever labelled: None of The Above?
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Latest from The Economist.
Sums it up perfectly ...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49593367581_eb6e6fcf53_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iyoYnK)
Mr Sanders is so convinced he is morally right that he has a dangerous tendency to put ends before means.
Very strange that the richest and most developed country in the world does not have the means to provide basic medical assistance for everyone, basic education for everyone and an adequate salary for everyone who is unemployed.
Whilst I agree that Communism, as it has been practiced in the past, has had serious flaws which have led to its collapse, it's not reasonable to declare that every aspect of the Communist system was flawed. Progress requires identifying the flaws and removing them, but also identifying the good aspects and expanding them.
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Do they have a lever labelled: None of The Above?
Try to be more clear and precise, Alan. Don't know what you are trying to say.
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Try to be more clear and precise, Alan. Don't know what you are trying to say.
Check to vote for one of the following:
1. Donald Trump Republican Party _____
2. Pete Buttigieg Democrat Party ______
3. Bernie Sanders Social Democratic Party _____
4. Elizabeth Warren American Indian Party _____
5. None of the Above ________
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Where is Bloomberg?
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Check to vote for one of the following:
1. Donald Trump Republican Party _____
2. Pete Buttigieg Democrat Party ______
3. Bernie Sanders Social Democratic Party _____
4. Elizabeth Warren American Indian Party _____
5. None of the Above ________
Don't be silly, Alan. Voting for no-one is the same as not voting at all. It would be ridiculous to have an option on the ballot paper to 'vote for no-one' or 'none of the above'.
However, a person can invalidate his vote by not ticking any of the boxes, if he is really stupid. ;)
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...salary for everyone who is unemployed...
Huh!? :o
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... However, a person can invalidate his vote by not ticking any of the boxes, if he is really stupid. ;)
Which is the same as having “none of the above” option. But why is that stupid? There are many people who would rather cut their finger off than using it to press the button, if the only options are Trump and Bernie.
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Which is the same as having “none of the above” option. But why is that stupid? There are many people who would rather cut their finger off than using it to press the button, if the only options are Trump and Bernie.
Why is it stupid?
(1) No two candidates can be either equally bad or equally good. Only stupid, or at least uninformed people, are unable to form an opinion as to which candidate might be at least slightly better or slightly worse, in accordance with their own standards.
Didn't Trump get elected because many voters considered him to be not quite as bad as Hilary Clinton?
(2) Informal or invalid votes can also be unintentional or accidental because the voter hasn't read or understood the instruction on the ballot paper. That's also a degree of stupidity.
I should also mention that the Australian voters do not choose their Prime Minister (equivalent to the American President). The members of a particular party choose their leader. The citizens vote for each member of the House of Representatives and the Senate, whichever party those members belong to.
The actual percentages of informal (or invalid) votes during Federal elections, whether deliberate or accidental, tend to be fairly small, ranging from around 1.35% to 6.4%. Refer attached graph from the following site:
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/research/files/informal-voting-2016.pdf
"At every federal election, some of the votes cast are not filled out in accordance with the requirements of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 (the Electoral Act). These votes are deemed informal and cannot be included in the count of votes leading to the election result. Together with the enrolment rate and voter turnout, the informality rate is a key measure of democratic health in Australia as it provides an indication of elector understanding of, and engagement with, the electoral process."
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Huh!? :o
Quote from: Ray on February 27, 2020, 10:22:02 pm
...salary for everyone who is unemployed...
Okay! You're having trouble understanding that concept. I should have been more precise. I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work, and a social security network for all those who are unable to work because of medical issues or old age'.
Understand now? ;)
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Okay! You're having trouble understanding that concept. I should have been more precise. I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work, and a social security network for all those who are unable to work because of medical issues or old age'.
Understand now? ;)
Oh you meant like welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, WIC, medicare-medicade and unemployment compensation....oh and social security? Check.
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... I meant a 'basic salary for everyone who is unable to find work but willing to work...
Indefinitely!?
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Why is it stupid?
(1) No two candidates can be either equally bad or equally good. Only stupid, or at least uninformed people, are unable to form an opinion as to which candidate might be at least slightly better or slightly worse, in accordance with their own standards.
Didn't Trump get elected because many voters considered him to be not quite as bad as Hilary Clinton?
(2) Informal or invalid votes can also be unintentional or accidental because the voter hasn't read or understood the instruction on the ballot paper. That's also a degree of stupidity.
I should also mention that the Australian voters do not choose their Prime Minister (equivalent to the American President). The members of a particular party choose their leader. The citizens vote for each member of the House of Representatives and the Senate, whichever party those members belong to.
The actual percentages of informal (or invalid) votes during Federal elections, whether deliberate or accidental, tend to be fairly small, ranging from around 1.35% to 6.4%. Refer attached graph from the following site:
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/research/files/informal-voting-2016.pdf
"At every federal election, some of the votes cast are not filled out in accordance with the requirements of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 (the Electoral Act). These votes are deemed informal and cannot be included in the count of votes leading to the election result. Together with the enrolment rate and voter turnout, the informality rate is a key measure of democratic health in Australia as it provides an indication of elector understanding of, and engagement with, the electoral process."
Our Constitution protects free speech. Free speech isn't free if the government can force you to speak. Dictatorships force people to vote even if they;re the only candidate running. They do this just to legitimize their power and position.
Why should someone be forced to legitimize one or the other of two people if neither is capable in your mind? Not voting tells the parties they should do better in picking qualified people if they want your vote. Twisting the voter's arm and forcing them to vote is taking away their freedom to express their opinion.
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If billionaire Bloomberg winds up running against billionaire Trump, should Bernie's supporters who hate billionaires be forced to vote for one or the other billionaire? How is that just? How is that free speech?
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Our Constitution protects free speech. Free speech isn't free if the government can force you to speak. Dictatorships force people to vote even if they;re the only candidate running. They do this just to legitimize their power and position.
Why should someone be forced to legitimize one or the other of two people if neither is capable in your mind? Not voting tells the parties they should do better in picking qualified people if they want your vote. Twisting the voter's arm and forcing them to vote is taking away their freedom to express their opinion.
In Belgium people are obliged to vote, not in the Netherlands .
If you vote blanco you express that you can/want not make a choice but you find it important to be able to vote. Your vote is counted.
I believe in the US only 25% of the people vote...
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In Belgium people are obliged to vote, not in the Netherlands .
If you vote blanco you express that you can/want not make a choice but you find it important to be able to vote. Your vote is counted.
I believe in the US only 25% of the people vote...
61.3% in 2016. Here a chart for the last couple of hundred years. We had higher rates around 80% in the 1800's.
https://guides.libraries.psu.edu/post-election-2016/voter-turnout
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Indefinitely!?
Yes, provided the unemployed person meets the requirement to apply for a certain number of jobs each month. If they still haven't found a job after 12 months, there is a requirement for them to join a 'Work for the Dole' program.
There is a derogatory term, 'dole bludger', which is often used to describe people who refuse jobs that they are competent to do but don't want to do, so that they can remain on the dole, and this is a problem
"Work for the Dole is a work experience program, under 'jobactive', for the long-term unemployed (12 months or longer), and is one way a job seeker can meet their mutual obligation requirements. Most job seekers will not be required to participate in 'Work for the Dole' because they find a job in the first 12 months of being on income support."
More information here:
https://www.employment.gov.au/newsroom/explainer-work-dole
and here: https://www.employment.gov.au/jobactive
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Ray, how much “work for the dole” pays and can it really last indefinitely?
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Ray, how much “work for the dole” pays and can it really last indefinitely?
We have about the same social system in the Netherlands...
The bottom line is that all people still have a basic income. That income is very low, so there is always a reason to start working if you are able.
There will always be some misuse of the system but overall it works.
People want to work, and take part of society.
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Many problems in that sector are caused by people with dysfunctional brains. There are folks sleeping in the street who refuse shelter, and there are those who can't find it; life is not a sweet, straight-line progression of input = output +.
Very often, you can put in all you're worth and still come up with an empty net. Try professional photography if you doubt that. It isn't even just a measure of how competent you may be, but of where you are, whom you can get to meet, and also very much how lucky you are. I simply refuse to believe anyone who tells you they did it all on their own; luck plays a huge part in which doors open and which not, as does hitting the right moment.
Success often brings with it a short memory of how you got there.
Rob
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We have about the same social system in the Netherlands...
The bottom line is that all people still have a basic income. That income is very low...
So, how low? what’s the number?
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Ray, how much “work for the dole” pays and can it really last indefinitely?
The support lasts indefinitely, but the type of support, or the name of the support, will change over time. If a person is unable to get a job after many years, despite all the opportunities of training in 'Work for the Dole', then there is probably some other basic problem that has to be addressed, such as a medical or psychiatric problem.
In Australia we have a free health service for those who are unemployed and/or do not have private health insurance, and also for those who are at retirement age and are receiving a government-funded age pension because their income or assets are below a certain threshold.
However, there are some disadvantages in the free health care system. If the problem is not urgent or life-threatening, one might be on a waiting list for some time, whereas the richer person with private health cover can get immediate treatment for any minor problem.
How much does an unemployed person currently get in Australia? A check on the internet reveals a figure of A$492.60 per fortnight for a single person, plus $121 per fortnight in rental assistance if the unemployed person does not own their own home and is renting a room. That's a total of $613.60 per fortnight. Not much. However, a 2 litre carton of full cream milk (or 4.23 pints for you Americans ;) ) costs as little as $2.35 in Australia.
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... How much does an unemployed person currently get in Australia? A check on the internet reveals a figure of A$492.60 per fortnight...
Is that for the first 12 months or when "on the dole"?
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So, how low? what’s the number?
We have at the moment 413.000 people in that social lowest sector- we call 'bijstand' (support)
9.1000.000 people have a job about 230.000 are unemployed.
So about 0.5% are in the 'Bijstand'
Bijstand is about 1000€ a month. That is really basic to live from..
The legal basic income for people that work = 1650€
At the moment the rents in Amsterdam are very high; people can work in the city, but need to live outside it.
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... Bijstand is about 1000€ a month...
I am moving to Holland.
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Where is Bloomberg?
He's waiting to be be anointed at the Democratic convention.
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In America there's also unemployment insurance and disability insurance (SSDI) provided by Social Security. Unemployment insurance (insurance premiums paid by the employer) kicks in when you are laid off. In NYS for example, it lasts for 6 months with a maximum of $500 per week. It provides some income while you're looking for another job.
US government provided SSDI protects people permanently who become disabled. Many states have adjuncts to this providing additional monies that are made available. Veterans of course can get free medical care from the Veterans Administration.
Additional, the US has food programs and many other welfare programs providing support systems. One thing we learned is that taking people off of welfare actually helped people get on their feet sooner and is a better long term solution. There were families that were on the dole for generation after generation encouraging out of marriage childbearing to increase payments and coincidentally increasing the damage to many children because fathers are encourage to be absent so the welfare continues. Reducing welfare payouts and requiring people to work have reduced this problem.
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Our Constitution protects free speech. Free speech isn't free if the government can force you to speak. Dictatorships force people to vote even if they;re the only candidate running. They do this just to legitimize their power and position.
Why should someone be forced to legitimize one or the other of two people if neither is capable in your mind? Not voting tells the parties they should do better in picking qualified people if they want your vote. Twisting the voter's arm and forcing them to vote is taking away their freedom to express their opinion.
Okay! It seems I haven't explained the situation in Australia clearly enough. Of course a government cannot literally force a person to speak or vote, just as they cannot force a person to drive a car below a particular speed limit on a road.
Breaking the speed limit is a more serious offense and the fine is greater. If the offense is repeated too often, one's driver's licence is cancelled. However, as far as I know, there is a type of freedom to refrain from voting by simply paying the fine, or turning up and making an invalid or informal vote which won't be counted. Elections don't happen often, so a $50 fine is no big deal. If one can't afford the $50 fine, then that's reason enough to vote for the socialist Labour Party, or someone like Bernie Sanders. ;)
I should also point out that Australian citizens do not elect the 'President' or Prime Minister. The country is divided into electorates, and each electorate always has a significant number of candidates belonging to different parties, and sometimes candidates independent of all parties, all competing for the one seat, in either the House of Representatives or the Senate, that represents a particular electorate. It's extremely unlikely there could be only one candidate in an electorate. Voters also have to show preferences on the ballot paper for the other candidates. If there are 4 candidates, for example, one has to rate each candidate from 1st preference to 4th preference.
Voting in Australia is considered both a right and a responsibility.
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Okay! It seems I haven't explained the situation in Australia clearly enough. Of course a government cannot literally force a person to speak or vote, just as they cannot force a person to drive a car below a particular speed limit on a road.
Breaking the speed limit is a more serious offense and the fine is greater. If the offense is repeated too often, one's driver's licence is cancelled. However, as far as I know, there is a type of freedom to refrain from voting by simply paying the fine, or turning up and making an invalid or informal vote which won't be counted. Elections don't happen often, so a $50 fine is no big deal. If one can't afford the $50 fine, then that's reason enough to vote for the socialist Labour Party, or someone like Bernie Sanders. ;)
I should also point out that Australian citizens do not elect the 'President' or Prime Minister. The country is divided into electorates, and each electorate always has a significant number of candidates belonging to different parties, and sometimes candidates independent of all parties, all competing for the one seat, in either the House of Representatives or the Senate, that represents a particular electorate. It's extremely unlikely there could be only one candidate in an electorate. Voters also have to show preferences on the ballot paper for the other candidates. If there are 4 candidates, for example, one has to rate each candidate from 1st preference to 4th preference.
Voting in Australia is considered both a right and a responsibility.
Driving in America is not constitutionally protected. It's a privilege that is provided by each of the 50 states. It can be given and can be taken away from you. Speech is on the other hand constitutionally protected. You never can lose your right to speak or not speak if you so desire. Imposing a fine does take your freedom away. What if they raised it to $500 or even a week in jail? Regardless of your rationale for wanting people to vote, and it has many reasonable points, the US Constitution does not allow government officials to force people to vote because voting is a form of speech. It's why people have died trying to get to get into our country.
Once a government can claim you have a "responsibility", that's just an excuse for your loss of individual liberty.
You have a "responsibility" to support and not to criticize your government and vote for the parties they put on the ballet. Where's your free speech then?
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Germany remains the only EU state for the freedom loving drivers - no speed limit on its autobahns.
Although, one party there has been advocating for 130kmh limit.
Are there any other countries with no speed limit?
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I am moving to Holland.
I would have joined you; makes my UK state pension look miserable. I always felt it was embarrassingly miserable when comparing with other retired Europeans living here mainly on their pensions. Did I not own my apartment, it would be impossible to live here - or probably anywhere else in Europe, for that matter.
We Brits have many stark reality checks we are going to have to make really soon.
:-(
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Germany remains the only EU state for the freedom loving drivers - no speed limit on its autobahns.
Although, one party there has been advocating for 130kmh limit.
Are there any other countries with no speed limit?
That's the same limit as in France, when we used to drive there. In Mallorca, it's 120 kph.
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Germany remains the only EU state for the freedom loving drivers - no speed limit on its autobahns.
Although, one party there has been advocating for 130kmh limit.
Are there any other countries with no speed limit?
Speed limits?
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That's the same limit as in France, when we used to drive there. In Mallorca, it's 120 kph.
In USA, there are some highway stretches with 80 mph (129kmh) speed limit - in Idaho, Montana, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming you can still find fast and almost deserted roads. The highest posted speed limit in USA is on the Texas State Highway 130 - 85 mph (137 km/h).
In Europe, there are quite a few countries with 130kmh limits on their main highways.
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Speed limits?
You know, when driving a car around town.
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You really need to get a sense of humor.
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In USA, there are some highway stretches with 80 mph (129kmh) speed limit - in Idaho, Montana, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming you can still find fast and almost deserted roads. The highest posted speed limit in USA is on the Texas State Highway 130 - 85 mph (137 km/h).
In Europe, there are quite a few countries with 130kmh limits on their main highways.
In the Netherlands we go back to 100KM/h because of pollution norms.
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In USA, there are some highway stretches with 80 mph (129kmh) speed limit - in Idaho, Montana, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming you can still find fast and almost deserted roads. The highest posted speed limit in USA is on the Texas State Highway 130 - 85 mph (137 km/h).
In Europe, there are quite a few countries with 130kmh limits on their main highways.
Driving in the American Southwest was neat with I think 80mph on some New Mexico, Utah or Arizona highways. Years ago, speed limits were slowed down to save gasoline after the oil "shock". Eventually, states have upped the limits again. What happens is if the speed is too slow, people will drive faster anyways since they feel comfortable with the higher speed with the road they're on. Depending on the state, police usually allow higher speeds of let's say 10mph over the speed limit. They won;t ticket you unless you go faster. I got stopped by a Connecticut State Trooper doing 90mph (145kmh) in a 65mph zone, although traffic was going 75mph. I got distracted. :) In any case, it's costing me more now for car insurance as they keep the infraction on your records for five years.
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Driving in the American Southwest was neat with I think 80mph on some New Mexico, Utah or Arizona highways. Years ago, speed limits were slowed down to save gasoline after the oil "shock". Eventually, states have upped the limits again. What happens is if the speed is too slow, people will drive faster anyways since they feel comfortable with the higher speed with the road they're on. Depending on the state, police usually allow higher speeds of let's say 10mph over the speed limit. They won;t ticket you unless you go faster. I got stopped by a Connecticut State Trooper doing 90mph (145kmh) in a 65mph zone, although traffic was going 75mph. I got distracted. :) In any case, it's costing me more now for car insurance as they keep the infraction on your records for five years.
80 mph on a 70 mph interstate zone is pretty normal fare it seems. 100mph, not unheard of on some western interstates. Not that I would know personally...:)
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Talking about transportation - Luxembourg, as the first country in the world, offers now free public transportation on buses, trams and trains to ease the traffic congestion.
It has had months of hype and now finally Luxembourg's free public transport has begun. With a population of only 614,000, it may be one of Europe's smallest countries and the idea is not unprecedented. But the "free mobility" drive has captured the imagination. Buses, trams and trains are now free to ride on and you don't need a ticket.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51657085
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Talking about transportation - Luxembourg, as the first country in the world, offers now free public transportation on buses, trams and trains to ease the traffic congestion.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51657085
I can see that free tram travel could become more popular; I often used to use trams and buses in the 50s as alternative to the Raleigh, and the buses were especially nice if you got a good seat up top. Great views, and had I had a reasonable camera back then, perhaps a good vantage position for street pix. The trams I remember as more noisy and given to much sway.
I think that Edinburgh has been toying with reintroducing trams, and if memory serves, it has become a very expensive exercise. Public ventures invariably do, as the proposed new rail link from London to the northern sticks proves. The public purse makes contractors salivate.
Rob
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Talking about transportation - Luxembourg, as the first country in the world, offers now free public transportation on buses, trams and trains to ease the traffic congestion.
It has had months of hype and now finally Luxembourg's free public transport has begun. With a population of only 614,000, it may be one of Europe's smallest countries and the idea is not unprecedented. But the "free mobility" drive has captured the imagination. Buses, trams and trains are now free to ride on and you don't need a ticket.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51657085
Well, they only need two buses.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51657085
Well, they only need two buses.
Also, it's easier for them to pay for it, since the Luxembourg GDP per capita is $100,000 whereas in USA it is only $59,500.
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Also, it's easier for them to pay for it, since the Luxembourg GDP per capita is $100,000 whereas in USA it is only $59,500.
Why would people who earn that kind of money want to take a bus? :)
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Good question.
I guess driving in Luxembourg is no fun, they have most cars in Europe per capita.
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Good question.
I guess driving in Luxembourg is no fun, they have most cars in Europe per capita.
So who's taking the bus there? Free or otherwise?
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So who's taking the bus there? Free or otherwise?
Shooters?
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Reminds me of California where they want to spend $50 billion on high speed trains between LA and San Francisco. Of course the only things on those trains will be cattle. Everything else drives or will fly between those two cities. What a waste of money.
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It's a nice drive in good weather and if you have time. Otherwise, it is just another 6 hour drive. And you have to watch out for the cattle trucks in front of you.
High-speed train could cut the travel time to less than half.
Elon Musk's Hyperloop train would do it in 35 minutes at $20/ride. Much better use of money than flying to Mars.
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$50 billion just to build. How much to support every year? How many passenger per billion? I'd rather invest in Kodak.
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Once a government can claim you have a "responsibility", that's just an excuse for your loss of individual liberty.
You have a "responsibility" to support and not to criticize your government and vote for the parties they put on the ballet. Where's your free speech then?
Not true. You have a responsibility to support 'Democracy' and uphold the law, as in most Democratic countries. There is no law against criticizing the government in Australia, and there is no country that has 'complete' freedom of speech without legal consequences.
Even in America, if you insult someone by making defamatory comments which are not true, you can be taken to court and suffer very expensive consequences. Is that 'freedom of speech'?
The law for compulsory voting was introduced in Australia as a result of an extremely low voter turnout in the 1922 federal elections. As a result of the new law, the turnout at the next election in 1925 rose to over 91%.
Article 29 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that 'rights and freedoms' are subject to 'duties to the community', including the 'just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society'.
There are many things that people do not wish to do and which they would not do if they were able to exercise 'individual freedoms', but which parliament has legislated to require. The role of parliament in a parliamentary democracy includes passing laws to ensure the effectiveness of that democratic system.
Voting can be considered as a civic duty comparable to other duties, such as paying taxes, compulsory education, and jury duty.
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Not true. You have a responsibility to support 'Democracy' and uphold the law, as in most Democratic countries. There is no law against criticizing the government in Australia, and there is no country that has 'complete' freedom of speech without legal consequences.
Even in America, if you insult someone by making defamatory comments which are not true, you can be taken to court and suffer very expensive consequences. Is that 'freedom of speech'?
The law for compulsory voting was introduced in Australia as a result of an extremely low voter turnout in the 1922 federal elections. As a result of the new law, the turnout at the next election in 1925 rose to over 91%.
Article 29 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that 'rights and freedoms' are subject to 'duties to the community', including the 'just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society'.
There are many things that people do not wish to do and which they would not do if they were able to exercise 'individual freedoms', but which parliament has legislated to require. The role of parliament in a parliamentary democracy includes passing laws to ensure the effectiveness of that democratic system.
Voting can be considered as a civic duty comparable to other duties, such as paying taxes, compulsory education, and jury duty.
First, lying about someone personally is different than political speech. Showing your displeasure with a slate of candidates by not voting is not the same as libelling someone is a thief. As one supreme court justice said, yelling fire in a crowded theater when there isn't one is not protected free speech.
Regarding the right of free speech, it's memorialized in our constitution that is the social compact of America. Other duties you listed such as paying taxes is something our government can do. There's no constitutional limitation on government to require jury duty or have compulsory education. But there is a constitutional prohibition on government limiting free speech.
Certainly you can differ in how you wish to run your rights and limit them in Australia. That's up to you. But in America, we find that the right of free speech is constitutionally protected and very broad and encompasses the right to not vote as an expression of free speech. Remember too that Americans fought a seven year brutal war for complete independence from the British crown. So the enumerated freedoms in our constitution are very precious to us. Especially when it came to political speech and being able to speak our minds against government. Australia on the other hand followed the British system more closely. Plus your "independence" wasn't so dramatic, still being part of the British crown. So there's more deference to government. Americans are more rebellious.
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Showing your displeasure with a slate of candidates by not voting is not the same as libelling someone is a thief.
I see a lot of confusion here, Alan. 'Not voting' is not necessarily showing displeasure. It's not showing anything at all specific, without further investigation of the reasons why a particular person did not show up to vote. There can be many reasons why a person doesn't bother to vote, such as sickness, being out of the country at the time, having total apathy regarding politics, not having total apathy but having a more important issue to attend to at the time, and so on.
The Australian system with compulsory voting provides a better method for the non-voters to explain why they didn't vote, because they get a letter after the election asking why they didn't vote. If they have an acceptable reason, such as sickness, which requires evidence from a doctor, they don't have to pay a fine. If they don't have an acceptable reason to avoid paying the fine, they still have the opportunity to state the real reason they didn't vote, if they want to.
Have I successfully demolished your argument? :D
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$50 billion just to build. How much to support every year? How many passenger per billion? I'd rather invest in Kodak.
AFAIK, the cost for the 350 mile tunnel and everything else needed was estimated at $14 billion.
For comparison, building of the 1776 miles long section of the Transcontinental railway in 1869 cost $60 million or about $1.2 billion in today's money. Construction of that rail track changed America. Building the Hyperloop between SF and LA would also change America.
https://www.history.com/news/transcontinental-railroad-changed-america
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... Have I successfully demolished your argument? :D
Not in the slightest.
Why I did or didn’t or for whom is none of your or anyone’s else business. I don’t want to explain myself to anybody, open a letter, respond to it, lick a stamp, pay a fine... I did what I wanted to do, or not, and that is nobody’s business. That’s the American way. Not the fascist, socialist, totalitarian regimes in Europe and Down Under, where people are not individuals, but subjects of the queen or state. Thanks God that the oceans, common language, and Smiths separate us.
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... Building the Hyperloop between SF and LA would also change America...
Why!?
The whole point of going from LA to that feces, medieval diseases and rats infested place is the drive. What other reason there could be to go there or in 35 min.?
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I would have joined you; makes my UK state pension look miserable....
Think about the irony, Rob. Someone who worked their butt off for 40 or so years ends up worse than someone who chose not to work at all.
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Think about the irony, Rob. Someone who worked their butt off for 40 or so years ends up worse than someone who chose not to work at all.
It crosses my mind.
When it does, I think well, that's free will (aka freedom of choice). I could have done something different with my life, something regular, but got seduced by the muse instead.
But it was one helluva good trip!
And now that I'm old and not always feeling so great, I guess I'm glad I did what I did. Being rich today would probably feel empty, even more ironic. As a black guy told me as my wife, a model and I lay on the beach on Paradise Island and refused his offer to buy drugs, you gonna be the riches' man in the graveyard. He was both right and quite mistaken.
;-) and ;-(
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I see a lot of confusion here, Alan. 'Not voting' is not necessarily showing displeasure. It's not showing anything at all specific, without further investigation of the reasons why a particular person did not show up to vote. There can be many reasons why a person doesn't bother to vote, such as sickness, being out of the country at the time, having total apathy regarding politics, not having total apathy but having a more important issue to attend to at the time, and so on.
The Australian system with compulsory voting provides a better method for the non-voters to explain why they didn't vote, because they get a letter after the election asking why they didn't vote. If they have an acceptable reason, such as sickness, which requires evidence from a doctor, they don't have to pay a fine. If they don't have an acceptable reason to avoid paying the fine, they still have the opportunity to state the real reason they didn't vote, if they want to.
Have I successfully demolished your argument? :D
It's non of the government's business why we didn't vote. We don't want it getting into our head like Google monitoring our web searchers to find out how we think and why we do things. That's the first step to thought control.
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AFAIK, the cost for the 350 mile tunnel and everything else needed was estimated at $14 billion.
For comparison, building of the 1776 miles long section of the Transcontinental railway in 1869 cost $60 million or about $1.2 billion in today's money. Construction of that rail track changed America. Building the Hyperloop between SF and LA would also change America.
https://www.history.com/news/transcontinental-railroad-changed-america
But this isn't 1869. The Interstate Highway system, automobiles, and 18 wheeler trucks nearly wiped out the rail system. If people wont use the system, what's the point of spending all that money? Let the people keep it by lowering their taxes.
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PS: The Transcontinental railway was mainly built with private funds whereas the California rail is being 100% paid with public tax money. Another boondoggle. Interestingly, the NYC subways were built with private funds too.
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Not in the slightest.
Why I did or didn’t or for whom is none of your or anyone’s else business. I don’t want to explain myself to anybody, open a letter, respond to it, lick a stamp, pay a fine... I did what I wanted to do, or not, and that is nobody’s business. That’s the American way. Not the fascist, socialist, totalitarian regimes in Europe and Down Under, where people are not individuals, but subjects of the queen or state. Thanks God that the oceans, common language, and Smiths separate us.
Well said. It funny how the Europeans here always complain about Trump falsely being a dictator. But then they accept laws that get into their head and direct their freedoms. Or their own leaders act dictatorially without consequence. President Macron just unilaterally changed the pension system in France causing near riots. He bypassed the parliament. It seems they've very good at pointing fingers rather than looking at their own governments and shortcomings.
https://www.france24.com/en/20200229-french-pm-philippe-pushes-through-controversial-pension-reforms-without-vote
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Why!?
The whole point of going from LA to that feces, medieval diseases and rats infested place is the drive. What other reason there could be to go there or in 35 min.?
No. The 35 minute speed is to quickly get out of SF.
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Not in the slightest.
Why I did or didn’t or for whom is none of your or anyone’s else business. I don’t want to explain myself to anybody, open a letter, respond to it, lick a stamp, pay a fine... I did what I wanted to do, or not, and that is nobody’s business. That’s the American way. Not the fascist, socialist, totalitarian regimes in Europe and Down Under, where people are not individuals, but subjects of the queen or state. Thanks God that the oceans, common language, and Smiths separate us.
"Fascist, socialist, totalitarian..." I guess that just about covers it. Are you enrolled in a satyrical writing course?
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...and you can't shoot your camera in public.
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Not in the slightest.
Why I did or didn’t or for whom is none of your or anyone’s else business. I don’t want to explain myself to anybody, open a letter, respond to it, lick a stamp, pay a fine... I did what I wanted to do, or not, and that is nobody’s business. That’s the American way. Not the fascist, socialist, totalitarian regimes in Europe and Down Under, where people are not individuals, but subjects of the queen or state. Thanks God that the oceans, common language, and Smiths separate us.
Slobodan, I did pretty much the same in Scotland, a land not famed for its wide-open mind.
Some couple of years after I moved, a guy on the 'phone from Glagow told me I was "one that got away" and trust me, there was precious little love in his voice.
Truth is, it's not countries that get in the way, it's we who make our own greatest obstacle to surmount: ourselves.
:-)
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"Fascist, socialist, totalitarian..." I guess that just about covers it. Are you enrolled in a satyrical writing course?
In Europe, the hijab is banned which in America would be violation of both free speech and the right to practice your religion, two freedoms memorialized in our Constitution. Interestingly, American founders copied so many of the enlightened principles that came from Europe. Yet Europe today is often shedding their own history. It's a slippery slope. The Germans were the last peeple many would have thought could have devolved into fascism. Yet it happened in the 1930's. None of us are immune to power seeking madness, even in America. That's why freedom of speech, religion, etc. were so ingrained in our thinking. Our founders were smart enough to understand it and try to guard against it. Unfortunately, even here, many people are not being educated on our constitution and are washing away its edicts. It's easy to slip into feel-good thinking that takes away essential rights rather quietly until you wake up one day without them.
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It's non of the government's business why we didn't vote.
So, if no-one bothers to vote, is that democracy, and should governments be concerned?
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So, if no-one bothers to vote, is that democracy, and should governments be concerned?
Who the heck cares if the government is concerned!? If anybody, it is people who should be concerned. Or not.
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So, if no-one bothers to vote, is that democracy, and should governments be concerned?
First off, people do vote. Arguing no-one votes is a false argument. Second, who cares if people don't vote? If they not concerned enough to vote, who wants them to vote anyway? They won't understand what the issues are or who the candidates are and what they represent. Those that do, but don't vote anyway, may be making a case that the candidates don't represent their views. If the party wants their vote, they have to get people who do. Forcing them to vote for someone they don't want or waste time going to the polls to vote for no one, is just stupid.
Bottom line is government should mind its business. There are too many busy bodies around as it is telling us where to shoot our pictures, where we can't, what drones we can use, which ones we can't, and the thousands of other rules people who like power want to impose on the rest of us because their power hungry mad. Don;t you get enough junk mail as it is? Do we need junk mail from the government asking us to explain why we didn't vote and then be forced to answer them under penalty. Maybe we should stay in jail for a week or two to think about how important voting is. That would get our attention. What do you think? Maybe ten minutes on the rack.
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"Fascist, socialist, totalitarian..." I guess that just about covers it. Are you enrolled in a satyrical writing course?
Yes... we are currently on the hyperbole chapter.
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First off, people do vote. Arguing no-one votes is a false argument. Second, who cares if people don't vote? If they not concerned enough to vote, who wants them to vote anyway? They won't understand what the issues are or who the candidates are and what they represent. Those that do, but don't vote anyway, may be making a case that the candidates don't represent their views. If the party wants their vote, they have to get people who do. Forcing them to vote for someone they don't want or waste time going to the polls to vote for no one, is just stupid.
I hate to tell you Alan but the government knows whether you vote or not. That's how the Republicans are able to purge the voter rolls of people who haven't voted in the last five years. In some states they even know whether you voted in the Republican or Democrat primary.
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In Europe, the hijab is banned ...
That is going to come as a surprise to a lot of Europeans, I think.
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I hate to tell you Alan but the government knows whether you vote or not. That's how the Republicans are able to purge the voter rolls of people who haven't voted in the last five years. In some states they even know whether you voted in the Republican or Democrat primary.
I need to renew my drivers license every four years. I need to retest to renew my part 107 drone pilots license every two years.
Please explain to me why voters who stay on the rolls for decades ( or even half a decade ) should not have their names removed if they don’t vote? Heck I had to renew my voter registration after I moved. Given you I can register on Election Day many places, and can cast a provisional vote...exactly who is being harmed?
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I need to renew my drivers license every four years. I need to retest to renew my part 107 drone pilots license every two years.
Please explain to me why voters who stay on the rolls for decades ( or even half a decade ) should not have their names removed if they don’t vote? Heck I had to renew my voter registration after I moved. Given you I can register on Election Day many places, and can cast a provisional vote...exactly who is being harmed?
Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.
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Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.
How exactly can one buy that information About neighbors and friends from the government?
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How exactly can one buy that information About neighbors and friends from the government?
Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:
https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists
You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:
https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx
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Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:
https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists
You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:
https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx
Interesting.
Sounds like a treasure trove for identity theft.
Which reminds me of the 2016 case where, allegedly, Russian hackers accessed voter registration data. If only they knew they could get it for $20 instead.
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Who the heck cares if the government is concerned!? If anybody, it is people who should be concerned. Or not.
What a strange question. Of course it's the people who care, and it's obviously only 'the people who care' who are the ones who care. And it's obvious that members of the government are also people. We don't expect dogs and cats to care about voter turnout, except to the extent they might be sad to see their owners leaving them alone in the house when they depart to the voting booth. ;)
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Which reminds me of the 2016 case where, allegedly, Russian hackers accessed voter registration data. If only they knew they could get it for $20 instead.
I think they are more interested in changing data in the voter rolls than just getting a printout.
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I think they are more interested in changing data in the voter rolls than just getting a printout.
Which was not the case.
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Which was not the case.
Right. I believe that while several states' systems were accessed in 2016, no information was changed.
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So, if no-one bothers to vote, is that democracy...
Ray, to address the first part of your hypothetical. Obviously, no-one is an unlikely extreme. But low turnout is a possibility and often a reality. What does that tell us? That most people couldn't care less what government does. This government or that government, people will go about their lives, knowing that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").
Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.
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First off, people do vote. Arguing no-one votes is a false argument.
Of course some people vote, and some people don't bother to vote. It's extremely unlikely that no-one would vote in a particular electorate on a particular occasion, just as it's unlikely there would ever be a 100% turnout of voters at a particular election, whether voting is compulsory or not.
Zero to 100% is the range of the spectrum. The issue is, at what point on that spectrum does it become obvious that there is a problem with the democratic political system that needs to be addressed.
Second, who cares if people don't vote? If they not concerned enough to vote, who wants them to vote anyway? They won't understand what the issues are or who the candidates are and what they represent. Those that do, but don't vote anyway, may be making a case that the candidates don't represent their views. If the party wants their vote, they have to get people who do. Forcing them to vote for someone they don't want or waste time going to the polls to vote for no one, is just stupid.
I agree that forcing stupid people to vote is stupid. However, among those people who wouldn't bother to vote if it were not compulsory, there are probably some intelligent ones who might think, 'I wish I didn't have to do this, but since I'm going to vote to avoid a $50 fine, I'll read up on the candidates' background and policies so I can make an informed decision, because, after all, I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person'.
Bottom line is government should mind its business.
Exactly, and a very important part of the business of a democratic government is to get feed-back on the government policies and encourage participation in the democratic process. Compulsory voting helps to some extent, but it's not a complete solution. More education is required, especially more 'free' education, or 'tax-funded' education, to be more precise.
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Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.
Funny I read this in your post, silly me I assumed you meant it....
"That's how the Republicans are able to purge the voter rolls of people who haven't voted in the last five years."
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Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.
I recall not long ago Italy was in serious financial trouble, together with Portugal, Greece and Spain, often referred to collectively as PIGS. ;D
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Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:
https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists
You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:
https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx
Thank you...
Peter
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Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.
Frank, I never was alarmed about whether the government knows whether you vote or not. What I said was there should not be a fine for not voting. Please re-read all the pertinent posts.
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Of course some people vote, and some people don't bother to vote. It's extremely unlikely that no-one would vote in a particular electorate on a particular occasion, just as it's unlikely there would ever be a 100% turnout of voters at a particular election, whether voting is compulsory or not.
Zero to 100% is the range of the spectrum. The issue is, at what point on that spectrum does it become obvious that there is a problem with the democratic political system that needs to be addressed.
I agree that forcing stupid people to vote is stupid. However, among those people who wouldn't bother to vote if it were not compulsory, there are probably some intelligent ones who might think, 'I wish I didn't have to do this, but since I'm going to vote to avoid a $50 fine, I'll read up on the candidates' background and policies so I can make an informed decision, because, after all, I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person'.
Exactly, and a very important part of the business of a democratic government is to get feed-back on the government policies and encourage participation in the democratic process. Compulsory voting helps to some extent, but it's not a complete solution. More education is required, especially more 'free' education, or 'tax-funded' education, to be more precise.
Ray you covered a lot of territory. First off, how would the government determine whether a person did not vote because he's stupid and shouldn;t vote or that he's really smart but didn't do his civic duty? On the other hand, that gives me an idea. We should give IQ tests to voters and anyone below three digits is prohibited from voting. :)
There's plenty of free education in America, from Kindergarten through the 12th grade. After that, many colleges are free or government supported. The problem is Civics isn't taught like it use to be. People don;t understand the American government, how it works, what the Constitution means and what it stands for, etc. So yes, many Americans are ignorant of history, politics, and American law and government. They have no idea what Socialism, Communism, Capitalism are. It's regrettable, but they're really dumb about these things. All they know is they want free stuff. Democracy is dangerous. We should fine people for voting.
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Speaking of voter rolls, I moved to New Jersey 6 years ago where I vote now for New Jersey officials. I'm still listed in the Queens, NYC, New York State voter rolls where I lived before and could probably still vote there if I showed up on election day. I doubt if they removed my name from the voters rolls in NY. They may have a procedure to have to show recent photo ID but that's being blocked by the dumb Supreme Court because people say the having to show a photo ID to vote is racist. Of course, it would be illegal for me to vote in any case since I';m no longer a resident of New York. Of course if someone voted in my place secretly, who would know. That's why voter rolls have to be cleared from time to time. It provides people with a feeling the whole voting procedure is honest, something very important in a Democracy when you see the fraud that happens in some countries. In Chicago, people have been known to maintain their civic duty and continue voting long after they passed.
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Ray, to address the first part of your hypothetical. Obviously, no-one is an unlikely extreme. But low turnout is a possibility and often a reality. What does that tell us? That most people couldn't care less what government does. This government or that government, people will go about their lives, knowing that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").
Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.
Italy is a basket case. What functions is corruption, the Mafia, the Camorra, and the rest of them:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=UcZcXsKLDs6Wa_egjqgE&q=italian+mafia+types&oq=italian+maia+types&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13.5642.6063..7960...0.2..0.82.159.2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.oANaBpqny90
What accounts for the movement of everything:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/30/italy-mafia-networks-are-more-complex-and-powerful-says-minister
Often, the line between politician and gangster is every thin indeed, if not entirely cosmetic.
Is that what you think is progress, or something that you want to live inside?
Rob
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Italy is a basket case...
If you can describe the 7th industrial power in the world and 2nd in Europe (only behind Germany) as a “basket case,” sure.
...Often, the line between politician and gangster is every thin indeed, if not entirely cosmetic.
Is that what you think is progress, or something that you want to live inside?
I thought you love Rome and once dreamt of living there? Isn’t your website named after Rome?
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Rome doth not a country make, though once it did. An empire, even!
There is a romantic link with it in my mind due to family.
Rob
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There is a romantic link with it in my mind due to family.
Rob
I have that with Montalbano Elicona Sicily...Everyone before me was born there, the link to the town and its beautiful surrounds> http://www.sicily.co.uk/nearby_town/montalbano-elicona/
Peter
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I have that with Montalbano Elicona Sicily...Everyone before me was born there, the link to the town and its beautiful surrounds> http://www.sicily.co.uk/nearby_town/montalbano-elicona/
Peter
Peter, have you watched the Montalbano series of Sicily-based detective stories? They are wonderful to watch, especially when you can bring a certain predisposed spiritual simpatico with you while watching.
I have been watching some of them again on the iPad... so much of the scenery is so similar to parts of Mallorca that it makes me wonder if actually leaving here is possible, even if I manage to sell the apartment.
The Italian seems to be a mix of Italian and Sicilian, but still love the show.
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here is an interesting article about shooting Fidel Castro
https://petapixel.com/2020/03/11/my-portrait-session-with-fidel-castro/